QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz So what is your point? Are we to be reassured because thisemployee was "on guard" (read paranoid). Or are we to be totally outraged because this "suspicious" person was found to be doing nothing more than having a hobby of 'recording' things. And now, because someone who obviously watches way too much news on the Fox channel, and is convinced that there is a swarm of terrorists just waiting to do damage in his little hick town in Texas, that he has been harrassed by not only two police departmentsand the railroad cops, but also he now has the 'attention' of the FBI. And he gets an AWARD for this?? The terrorists have won. We are now officially terrorzed. Of everything.....our shadows......ourselves......everyone.
QUOTE: Originally posted by h18w777 http://www.bnsf.com/employees/communications/bnsf_today/2005/12/2005-12-13-d.html QUOTE: Recently Ken Strickland, signal maintainer, Temple, Texas, received recognition for being "On Guard" by protecting BNSF employees and property. One afternoon, Ken noticed a suspicious male taking photos of trains in Meridian, Texas. The suspect caught Ken's attention because he remembered seeing him taking pictures in Morgan, Texas, the day before. Ken carefully watched from a distance. The male subject continued to follow and monitor trains traveling south on the Fort Worth Subdivision. Ken decided to contact the BNSF Resource Protection Special Agents in Temple, Texas. Robert Pounds and Suzanne Jaroch, both senior special agents, located the subject in McGregor, Texas. The suspect was questioned and it was then determined that he had been contacted earlier by local law enforcement agencies and that he was from the Boston area. After questioning him, agents verified his response with the agency. However, his responses were different from those given when previously contacted by local law enforcements. So they began a search of his vehicle and found several cameras, a scanner, a laptop and other recording equipment. He was warned again that his observed behavior was suspicious in nature and he was told to stay away from BNSF property. He was also referred to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Homeland Security in Boston. Ken received a BNSF "On Guard" award for his response on this individual. Anyone who notices anything suspicious should call 1-800-832-5452. However, employees should never take action on their own if they spot a possible problem -- they should always call their local Resource Protection agents. For more information on the On Guard program, go to the Resource Protection Intranet site and click Protection Solutions.
QUOTE: Recently Ken Strickland, signal maintainer, Temple, Texas, received recognition for being "On Guard" by protecting BNSF employees and property. One afternoon, Ken noticed a suspicious male taking photos of trains in Meridian, Texas. The suspect caught Ken's attention because he remembered seeing him taking pictures in Morgan, Texas, the day before. Ken carefully watched from a distance. The male subject continued to follow and monitor trains traveling south on the Fort Worth Subdivision. Ken decided to contact the BNSF Resource Protection Special Agents in Temple, Texas. Robert Pounds and Suzanne Jaroch, both senior special agents, located the subject in McGregor, Texas. The suspect was questioned and it was then determined that he had been contacted earlier by local law enforcement agencies and that he was from the Boston area. After questioning him, agents verified his response with the agency. However, his responses were different from those given when previously contacted by local law enforcements. So they began a search of his vehicle and found several cameras, a scanner, a laptop and other recording equipment. He was warned again that his observed behavior was suspicious in nature and he was told to stay away from BNSF property. He was also referred to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Homeland Security in Boston. Ken received a BNSF "On Guard" award for his response on this individual. Anyone who notices anything suspicious should call 1-800-832-5452. However, employees should never take action on their own if they spot a possible problem -- they should always call their local Resource Protection agents. For more information on the On Guard program, go to the Resource Protection Intranet site and click Protection Solutions.
Have fun with your trains
Pump
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas . The way I look at it, it pays to keep your cool.
QUOTE: Originally posted by UPTRAIN God dang fricken overreactive people...wait till I get my hands around their throats.
QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474 I guess as long as you are not one of these idiots that jump in the middle of a ROW with a camera, and stay off of railroad property unless you have permission from the railroad, you should be OK, right? I guess having a scanner is a bit overboard, but to each their own. There are all kinds of people that use scanners to monitor police, aviation, NASCAR, etc.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz So what is your point? Are we to be reassured because thisemployee was "on guard" (read paranoid). Or are we to be totally outraged because this "suspicious" person was found to be doing nothing more than having a hobby of 'recording' things. And now, because someone who obviously watches way too much news on the Fox channel, and is convinced that there is a swarm of terrorists just waiting to do damage in his little hick town in Texas, that he has been harrassed by not only two police departmentsand the railroad cops, but also he now has the 'attention' of the FBI. And he gets an AWARD for this?? The terrorists have won. We are now officially terrorzed. Of everything.....our shadows......ourselves......everyone. That is what we are instructed to do! He did what he is paid for and he was rewarded for it! It's not paranoia. Besides, your foamer buddy gave conflicting answers....there is where the problem lies. He could have simply said, "I'm a railbuff.....blah....blah." As far as pictures, stay off of the property and I won't report foamers. As far as these tracking programs that some of you have....they should be banned. Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. It is kinda creepy when I have seen guys post ETD freqs. What kinda geek cares about the ETD freqs? Take your pictures and leave it at that.
QUOTE: Originally posted by CSXrules4eva Given this information I would say that that report about this situatio needs to be more specific and needs to actually explain to the readers why they dertermined this "observer's" behavior to be suspisious.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan Originally posted by ironken Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. You know what, if your operations and conversations were that important I think the railroads would spring for 800 Mhz encrypted trunk frequencies like the police and other law enforcement agencies use. You know what, that was a stupid statement! If our conversations are so unimportant as you elude to, then riddle me this. Why do you guys listen to them? The conversations are important to the safe movement of freight. Ever heard of Hazmat? You are from KCMO. I know it well. Put some hazmat on the ground near Kemper or in a more residential area and see what happens. Reply Edit csmith9474 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Colorado Springs, CO 3,590 posts Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:27 PM Trunking will not work for the railroads. Smitty Reply Tharmeni Member sinceJuly 2003 From: Southwestern Florida 501 posts Posted by Tharmeni on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:31 PM The railroads have never figured out -- and BNSF is at the top of the ignorance list -- that railfans are their strongest allies. Railfans write letters to politicans about crossing safety, wasteful expenditures on highway construction, truck subsidies, etc. Then the BNSF gives out rewards for harassment. It needs to remove its collective head from its Fort Worth ---. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:35 PM Yep, without foamers, the BNSF wouldn't exist and I would be out of a job. A great big thank you to all of the railfans that secure my job......... Reply Edit csmith9474 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Colorado Springs, CO 3,590 posts Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:39 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken Yep, without foamers, the BNSF wouldn't exist and I would be out of a job. A great big thank you to all of the railfans that secure my job......... If you have a problem with railfans, what are you doing on this forum. Smitty Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:41 PM No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Reply Edit csmith9474 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Colorado Springs, CO 3,590 posts Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. I am not trying to pick a fight, nor am I suggesting you leave the forum. And how long anybody has been on this forum has very little signifigance. It just seemed that you were lumping together anybody with a scanner and a camera, shooting trains, as a "foamer", which is somewhat derogatory to many folks. I myself am just happy seeing trains from a safe distance on public property, especially when my children are with me. I apologize for offending you. Smitty Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:52 PM No problem here. Everythings cool in Chinatown. I got my hairs up at a couple of these posts that are crap. Reply Edit csmith9474 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Colorado Springs, CO 3,590 posts Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:55 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem here. Everythings cool in Chinatown. I got my hairs up at a couple of these posts that are crap. Hope it wasn't me. Sorry man.[:)] I volunteered at a railroad museum with an operating railroad and had many problems with "foamers". I hated catching them in the carbarn near the pit or climbing under our pax cars for that perfect shot. If they got hurt.....well, you know. Smitty Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:10 PM csmith, wasn't you at all. I just get a little burned up when some railfans act like it is their Constitutional right to come on the property, etc. If you like railfanning, cool. But Fort Worth can give a rip if they p.o. some railfans. Some guys are cool, don't trespass and in some cases have given guys rides back to the head end. I have on a few occasions B.S.ed with some railfans and had fun doing it. Some of the cats on this forum get a little millitant about the hobby and need to put into perspective. It's other peoples equipment and property and unless thay are off of the property, they are at the compnaies/employees mercy. Reply Edit csmith9474 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Colorado Springs, CO 3,590 posts Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken csmith, wasn't you at all. I just get a little burned up when some railfans act like it is their Constitutional right to come on the property, etc. If you like railfanning, cool. But Fort Worth can give a rip if they p.o. some railfans. Some guys are cool, don't trespass and in some cases have given guys rides back to the head end. I have on a few occasions B.S.ed with some railfans and had fun doing it. Some of the cats on this forum get a little millitant about the hobby and need to put into perspective. It's other peoples equipment and property and unless thay are off of the property, they are at the compnaies/employees mercy. I know the types you are talking about. It isn't your god given right to impose yourself on the railroad. Some do need a life outside of this hobby. Fortunately I do most of my railfanning on an Air Force Base, so I don't have to deal with much BS like that. Smitty Reply PBenham Member sinceJuly 2005 From: In the New York Soviet Socialist Republic! 1,391 posts Posted by PBenham on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:19 PM You simply cannot sit trackside legally or illegally without the possibility of some[censored] deciding to[censored]you! [:(!]The posters that have proclaimed the 9/11 MURDERERS Victors in the war are, sadly, right as rain! The Northeast, where I am residing is about as bad as you can find for railfans, but there are no limits as to where we might be hassled by hostile employees. They get excuses made for them because WE are in the wrong place. THAT can be helped, by paying attention to where we are, and knowing it is OK to be there. BUT there are Police that can't handle people whose behavior is outside their "box". These[censored][censored][censored][banghead][banghead][*^_^*]are a serious problem that has to be dealt with by people(railfans ) with the wherewithal to challange this [censored]in court! IF they lose to us then we can relax, BUT!! As sad as you might consider the times we live in now, things can get worse, and there is nothing we can do about it ![banghead][*^_^*] Welcome to the Evil Empire USA. Perhaps we can go to work for the terrorists, since they promise more than the so-called protectors of freedom. Sorry, freedom is dead for the most part for railfans and it need not be so. Fight the FEAR, RAILFAN, RAILFAN and Do it until we are all in jail! They cannot win if every one is smart and prepared to go to the courts and appeal every defeat. [xx(] I do not have the$$ to fight this but, who can stand up and help us? Sadly, I'd warn you to not hold your breath. Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:40 PM Who's got the popcorn machine? Have fun with your trains Reply ChrisBARailfan Member sinceApril 2005 From: Kansas City, MO 100 posts Posted by ChrisBARailfan on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:46 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan Originally posted by ironken Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. You know what, if your operations and conversations were that important I think the railroads would spring for 800 Mhz encrypted trunk frequencies like the police and other law enforcement agencies use. You know what, that was a stupid statement! If our conversations are so unimportant as you elude to, then riddle me this. Why do you guys listen to them? The conversations are important to the safe movement of freight. Ever heard of Hazmat? You are from KCMO. I know it well. Put some hazmat on the ground near Kemper or in a more residential area and see what happens. This is a free exchange of ideas and knowledge. I do not read this forum to be called stupid. I take offense to you calling me stupid or my ideas stupid. I have never listened to a railroad frequency in my life. I railfan in spots where one is not necessary, so I can not answer why people listen to them but others on this post have answered. I never meant to say that your conversations are unimportant, but I do use a radio everyday at my work and could care less who listens to me. If you want to listen to my frequency than heck I will give it to you. My point was that banning scanners will not do any good to those actually willing to do harm to a railroad. I agree that communication is critical to the safe transport of all freight, not just hazmat, and I live within a mile of both NSs Avondale Yard BNSFs Murray yard so wrecks are of great concern to me personally. I just want to know how banning scanners or even encrypting railroad communication would further the goal of a secure infrastructure? Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:54 PM Hey Ironken, I'm not trying to start a fight. When I first read your post about scaners,atcs monitors,ect. my first reaction was what a jerk. I refrained from responding immediatly because it probably would have gone south from there. Now after thinking about it I can kinda understand where you are comming from. But when it comes down to it what is the differance between someone up to no good having a scanner or not? If someone is up to no good they are going to do there damage reguardless of what you guys are talking about. I myself don't pay attention to the scanner unless it's a detector going off or warrants being given out. I like the heads up so I can position myself accordingly for photos (if I'm taking pix). Where I railfan that warning is valuable as sometimes it takes several minuets to move to a good location (multiple tracks) for that approaching train. Now I am well aware that there are a lot of idiot railfans out there giving us a bad name but would banning scanners really do any good. After all idiots will be idiots, scanner equipt or not. And as far as the terrorist angle goes if somebody wants to listen to the RR radios there are many other ways to listen in if you don't have a scanner (any single sideband radio that covers the 160-161 range will work). And even if you had a secure channel a terrorist out to do harn can surely come up with a spotter and use cell phones to see you comming. Would you please explain yourself a little more? BTW- I don't intentionaly tresspass without permission, And I have given crewmembers rides a couple of times and it was because I had a scanner that I knew they needed a ride.[;)] Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Who's got the popcorn machine? Sorry Vic, I deleted my smart-a response I...I...I just don't know what came over me....must have been all the angry smilies. Hey, if it's an angry smilie do you call it a frownie, or a meanie, what? mike Reply Edit CopCarSS Member sinceAugust 2002 From: Turner Junction 3,076 posts Posted by CopCarSS on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:06 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Who's got the popcorn machine? Dang...I put it in storage. Haven't needed it in awhile. Let's see...where did I put it now?... -ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:09 PM Here you go guys. Reply CopCarSS Member sinceAugust 2002 From: Turner Junction 3,076 posts Posted by CopCarSS on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:20 PM I knew we kept you around here for a reason, Chad. [;)] -ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:25 PM Wow, PB, ever think about De-caff? Unfortunatly, and I hate to single you out, but you realizeing it or not, make a bad case for honest rails fans. In the last 2 years since I have kinda got hooked into ths whole railfan thing, (mostly cause my son and who is 5) I have not had a problem... In all honesty, maybe we get out and go "train hunting" every couple of months but in those times lets see here.... We have wandered around one of the mainyards down here (after hours) half dozen times and never been hassled, let alone stopped. At another yard, the yardmaster gave us a tour of Dash 9. At our local industry stop, the crews there have invited us up 2 twice, been intied intot he crew office 3 times, gotten latern, arm bands, glasses, ear plugs, and water (I admit, it was all for the kid, but still [:p]_ it was cool They let us wander more or less were ever we want. Take all the pictures we could ask for. I have had crewman comeout to the landing.... just to say hi. Some of them even took the time to tell me better spots for rail fanning or where this line went, who was getting what. So, if this what railfanning is coming down too..... [:)] I'll take it Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply CSXrules4eva Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Louisville, KY 1,345 posts Posted by CSXrules4eva on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:28 PM I think I'm going to need two bags of pop corn, the kind with the chesse please. LORD HELP US ALL TO BE ORIGINAL AND NOT CRISPY!!! please? Sarah J.M. Warner conductor CSX Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:31 PM Got butter? Guess I picked a good to stay home[:-^] sick Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:33 PM Voice of Marvin the manicly depressed robot-"here I am, brain the size of a planet and they have me making popcorn". [:(] Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:35 PM Ok fine, [:(!], Ill bite, how the heck do you "make" popcorn? I cant find the character. Maybe I dont have enough stars?[^] Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:38 PM John, quote me and cut and paste the line below: it's a link from another site. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:43 PM [:D] Thanks for that. Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:45 PM No problem, you can take over. It's been a long day and I am done. Goodnight all. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:52 PM by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic Reply Edit blhanel Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Cedar Rapids, IA 4,213 posts Posted by blhanel on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:08 PM Do you suppose it was submitted by the suspicious guy in Texas?[:D] Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:13 PM by ChrisBar "This is a free exchange of ideas and knowledge. I do not read this forum to be called stupid. I take offense to you calling me stupid or my ideas stupid." Read the first sentence of your first post again. You came off agressively and got treated with agression. Nobody said that you were stupid. I said that statement was stupid and I maintain that. Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Reply Edit vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:31 PM Mmmm...popcorn Have fun with your trains Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Reply Edit AlcoRS11Nut Member sinceJuly 2002 From: Stevens Point 436 posts Posted by AlcoRS11Nut on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:24 PM couple things.....one i was in the powder river basin video tapeing and photographing coal train, and here comes a BNSF truck (thinking "oh boy...im done now"), the BNSF guy stops and asks me what im doing (i naturally tell him) but the twist is he asks me if i was going to be there a while so he could run up to Alliance Yard and bring back some "BNSF stuff" for me, and gives me areas to go!!!! A RR employee actually helped me....after he left i was dumbfounded. Secondly...I will never stop railfanning...cause i have NOTHING TO HIDE!!!!! I love the smell of ALCo smoke in the Morning. "Long live the 251!!!" I miss the GBW and my favorite uncle is Uncle Pete. Uncle Pete eats Space Noodles for breakfast. Reply csmith9474 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Colorado Springs, CO 3,590 posts Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:47 PM I think a mojority of railroad employees are great folks that are sympathetic to our hobby, if they aren't railfans themselves. Smitty Reply videomaker Member sinceMay 2005 From: Hewitt,TX. 1,088 posts Posted by videomaker on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:50 PM Right on mehelich ! I agree with you ! Danny Reply videomaker Member sinceMay 2005 From: Hewitt,TX. 1,088 posts Posted by videomaker on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:55 PM Lets try this again,Right on mehrlich ! I agree with you ... Danny Reply TomDiehl Member sinceFebruary 2001 From: Poconos, PA 3,948 posts Posted by TomDiehl on Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:56 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Ok. I wasn't for sure. Thanks anyway. Allan. Reply Edit richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:37 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken [ As far as these tracking programs that some of you have....they should be banned. Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. It is kinda creepy when I have seen guys post ETD freqs. What kinda geek cares about the ETD freqs? And if you were in charge the USA would be a dictatorship? Reply paulstecyna21 Member sinceSeptember 2005 From: Willow Grove near NS tracks 158 posts Posted by paulstecyna21 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:40 AM that is interesting but the usa will not be dictatorship. http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/CW44AC/0001CSX-bc.jpg Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:42 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Reply paulstecyna21 Member sinceSeptember 2005 From: Willow Grove near NS tracks 158 posts Posted by paulstecyna21 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:46 AM oh really mr. hody tody god like smarty pants you have to run for president http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/CW44AC/0001CSX-bc.jpg Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:58 AM Chad...fire up the popcorn machine... mike Reply Edit CopCarSS Member sinceAugust 2002 From: Turner Junction 3,076 posts Posted by CopCarSS on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:11 AM I think we should call this a Phoenix thread. It's certainly doing a decent job of rising up from its own ashes! -ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar "This is a free exchange of ideas and knowledge. I do not read this forum to be called stupid. I take offense to you calling me stupid or my ideas stupid." Read the first sentence of your first post again. You came off agressively and got treated with agression. Nobody said that you were stupid. I said that statement was stupid and I maintain that. Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Ironken, I can see where you are comming from. In my line of work untill cell phones got popular 2-way radios were the main communications. I always assumed conversations were being listened to by many ears anyway so conversations were always kept professional. Of couse there are not to many cable tech fans standing down the street with a scanner watching me work. If that were to happen I would get a little creeped out too I guess. As for the ATCS monitor you bring up an interesting point, is it hacking? Off the cuff I would say no, the signal is airborne and you are only receiving. If you were to transmitt data and interfear with operations I would say yes, and you would be guilty of interfearing with interstate commerce. And I'm sure that would be a felony at the least. But that is not the case. The ATCS monitor is a receiver only and CAN NOT IN ANY WAY CONTROLL THE RAILROADS TRACK OR SIGNALS, and the creator of the software made sure there is no way the program can be modified to do so. I wouldn't worry about this too much, ATCS monitor takes some skill and effort to set up and only the die hard railfan will bother. You need a specialy modified scanner, a computer with a certain type of sound card, the ATCS program, and the software that interpets the data into a track diagram. Then it will only work in areas that use that system. In my area the BNSF transcon, and mabee the surf line are the only places this will work. Oh, and yes there is an effort to outlaw the ATCS monitor. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Reply tregurtha Member sinceApril 2004 104 posts Posted by tregurtha on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:32 AM It's a fine line these days. I've found that if you're respectful of railroad property and respectful of law enforcement and are honest about simply being a railfan you don't have much of a problem. After the London subway bombings earlier this year, I was approached by the CN police at the diamond in Durand, Michigan. Usually not a copy there but it may have had something to do with the bombings. A lot of folks gather at the restored station there, but I happened to be the only person there that day. The cop asked what I was doing (I had a scanner and camera). I was honest, I said I was a railfan, I said I was respectful of railroad property and always stayed safe, and he's was cool with that. It seems to be a few bad eggs that cause the problems. Ross R. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:32 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Now thats funny., I dont care who you are...[:D] Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by tregurtha It's a fine line these days. I've found that if you're respectful of railroad property and respectful of law enforcement and are honest about simply being a railfan you don't have much of a problem. After the London subway bombings earlier this year, I was approached by the CN police at the diamond in Durand, Michigan. Usually not a copy there but it may have had something to do with the bombings. A lot of folks gather at the restored station there, but I happened to be the only person there that day. The cop asked what I was doing (I had a scanner and camera). I was honest, I said I was a railfan, I said I was respectful of railroad property and always stayed safe, and he's was cool with that. It seems to be a few bad eggs that cause the problems. Ross R. Good answer Ross. I guess from a railroad employee's perspective on that fine line is to err on the side of safety. I got to thinking about the guy from Boston. There are a mulititude of great sites for railfanning in Texas. Meridian isn't one of them. If I was working around there and had probably never seen a railfan, I might have gotten suspicious too. He was probably just that, a rail fan, but he shouldn't have lied in the first place. mike Reply Edit chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Now thats funny., I dont care who you are...[:D] Here is the link http://www.socalrailfan.com/forums/showthread.php?t=362 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:25 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz So what is your point? Are we to be reassured because thisemployee was "on guard" (read paranoid). Or are we to be totally outraged because this "suspicious" person was found to be doing nothing more than having a hobby of 'recording' things. And now, because someone who obviously watches way too much news on the Fox channel, and is convinced that there is a swarm of terrorists just waiting to do damage in his little hick town in Texas, that he has been harrassed by not only two police departmentsand the railroad cops, but also he now has the 'attention' of the FBI. And he gets an AWARD for this?? The terrorists have won. We are now officially terrorzed. Of everything.....our shadows......ourselves......everyone. AMEN BRO what the big deal some wussy guy is scared of a camera and gets awarded i wish i was on a boxcar when he came down the tracks i would jump out yell SUPRISE & give him either a heart attack or a reson to call the cops[}:)][8D][:D] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:33 AM [8D] i belive that you should be able to take pic of trains as long as your not to close to the tracks if you pullover to the side of the road and arenot blocking trafiick your cool but if your going to follow the train & take som pics let some one else drive Reply Edit chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:37 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by THEBREEZE2005NYTX [8D] i belive that you should be able to take pic of trains as long as your not to close to the tracks if you pullover to the side of the road and arenot blocking trafiick your cool but if your going to follow the train & take som pics let some one else drive AMEN !!! especially when chaseing steam.[;)] Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 1:22 PM Okay, so let's agree that their isn't enough information to fully assess what happened. I'm sure that the authorities were acting in good faith for the welfare of the the railroad and their constituents. Mr. Strickland should be commended for his ability to recognize a potentially theatening situation and deal with it in the manner deemed appropriate by his company. But I have some concerns with some of the report: QUOTE: The suspect was questioned and it was then determined that he had been contacted earlier by local law enforcement agencies and that he was from the Boston area. While Boston is quite a distance from Texas, so what? Lots of people are from Boston, about 600,000 in Boston proper. Does this make any difference? QUOTE: After questioning him, agents verified his response with the agency. However, his responses were different from those given when previously contacted by local law enforcements. So they began a search of his vehicle and found several cameras, a scanner, a laptop and other recording equipment. Okay, so he changed his story. I agree that would make me a bit more suspicious. As for the items in the car, I often have these same items in my car everyday. I have a laptop with both an audio recording/editing program for work and photo editing program that will let me edit video. (Laptop and other recording equipment) I usually have a disposable camera in the care to take pics for insurance in case of an accident, and if I knew that I might get to see some trains, I'd probably have my scanner and my trusty old Minolta SLR with me ( several cameras, scanner) QUOTE: He was warned again that his observed behavior was suspicious in nature and he was told to stay away from BNSF property. He was also referred to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Homeland Security in Boston. This is what really gets me. Please tell me where, in this whole story, the perpetrator in question did anything more than change his story to the authorities. So what, he lied? Do you see anyone locking Clinton or Bush up for lies they've told? While I agree it is not the smartest move to change your story to the cops, so far as I can tell that is all he did. No where in this whole story does it say that he was tresspassing or on private property. No where in this story does it say he did anything to threaten the safety of the railroad employees or himself. No where does it say he failed to cooperate with the authorites. All it says is he was acting suspicious. For that he was referred to Homeland Security, and I presume he will be monitored. As Sarah (CSXrules4eva) says : "they can not JUST assume that he is a criminal. " I think that BNSF did what they felt was right, that the authorities did what they felt was right and that perhaps this fellow did what he thought was right. The story, at best, insinuates that there was some illegal, or at least, some questionable activity occuring here, but there is nothing said of pending charges against this person. Perhaps BNSF is not in the habit of divulging this information for their own legal reasons. Regardless, based on the lack of information I find it difficult to know who was in the right and who was in the wrong. There is just not enough information. What concerns me most is that based on the information in the story, I could go to railfanning at Eola Yard, tell a lie and be considered suspicious by Homeland Security. I enjoy railfanning and continue to enjoy it, but I have to admit this story is going to make me really paranoid next time I'm trackside. I wonder if the local authorities would consider that paranoia suspicious? Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 2:08 PM Unfortunately in these situations you have to lawyer up to defend yourself. I myself don't need a 4 figure lawyer fee everytime I have to defend myself (not that I've had to yet). Mabee we need some sort of railfan harrasment insureance and keep a lawyer that specializes in this sort of thing on retainer.[;)] Hey Gabe, hows your current job working out? [(-D] Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:12 PM Still say this guy got himself into trouble, if each time he was questioned , he had simply said, "name is so and so, I'm a railfan on vacation from Boston, just wanted to take some pics, I'm a visitor and unfamiliar with this lines schedules so I use the scanner to know where the train will be so I can be there get a picture of it" simple, be honest, dont act like a jerk, and for goodness sakes dont lie or change your story because you think you have some inherent right to stand on someone elses private property to take pictures. As for the guy who got the award, I'm still at a loss as to why people are upset that he was doing what he was told to do. So he gets a gold star on the fridge, big deal. Any heavy industry should be wary if for nothing else their own liability. After having a train here intentionally derailed by a teenage vandal recently, I'm glad someones keeping an eye out for possible troublemakers. Better safe than a toxic cloud of chlorine pouring thru my backyard.[;)] Have fun with your trains Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:33 PM The Railroad was very safe..........That's until the Railfan showed up. Allan. Reply Edit espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:42 PM We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 16, 2005 5:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Well Rich, I'm not goin anywhere unless you go and cry to the man. Wouldn't hurt my felings if you dropped outta here either. Do ya wanna start a little cyber flame war? Pretty fun to pop off on the computer from the comfort of your home. Try reading who the post is directed to....sure enough....not you. I guess that reading is not a qualification that big wheel broadcast engineers are required to posess.........Your turn. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 16, 2005 5:57 PM And the Flame wars continue! Allan. Reply Edit dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Friday, December 16, 2005 6:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Friday, December 16, 2005 7:06 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Correct...almost. Some states still have specific laws against scanners limiting who, when and where they can be legally used. As the technology changes sodoes the legislation and things are gradually easing off scanner usage. I know this after getting a warning about from an officer in Michigan that it was illegal to operate the scanner in my car. There is a ton of info at the following link, including tables about halfway down the page that list statutes for specific states: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/transportation/radar.htm It is interesting reading and evident that they are most worried about people using scanners to commit crimes. Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:19 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57 QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Correct...almost. Some states still have specific laws against scanners limiting who, when and where they can be legally used. As the technology changes sodoes the legislation and things are gradually easing off scanner usage. I know this after getting a warning about from an officer in Michigan that it was illegal to operate the scanner in my car. There is a ton of info at the following link, including tables about halfway down the page that list statutes for specific states: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/transportation/radar.htm It is interesting reading and evident that they are most worried about people using scanners to commit crimes. Mike If they ban scanners in all states, as ironken prefers, the criminals would still have receivers of some kind if they needed to monitor communications for their purpose. It seems the fact that scanners are illegal during the commission of a bigger crime would not matter to them. So banning scanners just removes another harmless hobby from the innocent people. Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:21 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Well Rich, I'm not goin anywhere unless you go and cry to the man. Wouldn't hurt my felings if you dropped outta here either. Do ya wanna start a little cyber flame war? Pretty fun to pop off on the computer from the comfort of your home. Try reading who the post is directed to....sure enough....not you. I guess that reading is not a qualification that big wheel broadcast engineers are required to posess.........Your turn. Just stating my opinion, what you do with it is up to you. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:42 AM whatever, clown. Reply Edit richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken whatever, clown. My point exactly! Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Saturday, December 17, 2005 7:34 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy If they ban scanners in all states, as ironken prefers, the criminals would still have receivers of some kind if they needed to monitor communications for their purpose. It seems the fact that scanners are illegal during the commission of a bigger crime would not matter to them. So banning scanners just removes another harmless hobby from the innocent people. Exactly. Who's mostly in favor of anti-gun laws? The criminal! Life is much easier for them if they know the citizens cannot protect themselves. The point is, as richardy stated, is that passing laws restricting freedoms only affects law-abiding people, as they are the only ones that will pay any heed to the laws. The criminal (by definition) does not, and cannot, care about laws. Reply eolafan Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Aurora, IL 4,515 posts Posted by eolafan on Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:46 AM Next thing we are likely to see is 50 cal. machine guns mounted on the locomotives and used to shoot railfans and a big sign on the sides of the box cars saying "Welcome to Osama, as long as you don't take pictures or use a scanner". Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:20 AM Kinda says it all! Reply Edit canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:12 PM Oh man, I am going to step in it now, ..but... been biting back and I havebeen reading some of your thoughts, now here is mine. You will either agree or disagree. Either support it, or will hate me. Fine. Some of you guys yack and complain so much about your loss of rights and "the Terrosits won!" You should sit down and take a good look around....... a REALLY good look around and be thankful instead of [banghead]ing. If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. My family lives in this country. If it means keeping safer cause some guy wants to ask me questions...? FIne, mind if I grab a seat, I got nothign to hide. You want to see what life is like when its really bad? Wanna know how scary life could be? Want to know what the one of the most life dangering things you could do? Ride a bus to work in Isreal. Heaven for bid you want to go out and have dinner...... On, Sept 12, 2001how many people were complaining we didnt do enough? . Amazing how so many of you have gone back to thinking its Sept 10th. I am sorry, how many terror attacks have we had since? Exactly. Obivously, something has worked and some poeple are busting their***to keep up the record. If someone asking me some question is my part. Hell yeah ask away, I am an American, how can I help? Anyone remember the little dereailiment of the Amtrak here in Phoenix back in the early 90's? Pretty sure that was a white dude (s). Some poeple in the G Squad havent forgotten that one, like alot havent forgotten what happen to the in LA back in the 30's. Hate to break it to you people, but waching trains is kinda wierd and fairly unknown in this day and age to people who dont know about us. So yeah, you got a bunch eletrical equipment in the car and some bad***photo gear standing by yourself? Guess what, better be prepared to explain your self. Doesnt bother me. In fact, I have made some pretty good RR freinds cause, someone said, "Excuse me, what are you doing?" Oh, cause you think your a middle age white dude thst gives you a get of jail free card cause your not a terrorist? Freakin please...... Anyone on law enforcement knows some guy who is 2 bit terrorist wont stand there, they will pay a white guy to do it. You see trains and Oh My God! An unpatched whatever.... Mr-G man sees you stareing at the most senseitive mode of transprortation and hunderds of cars of chemicals, gasses, and military shippments. You see this country owes you. I see it as I am greatful to be in this country. Done ranting. Sorry if I offend you, I am sorry. Above rant is my opinion. chances are then what you wrote, offended me. Best Regards, John Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply eolafan Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Aurora, IL 4,515 posts Posted by eolafan on Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:38 PM Oh, I agree with you fully...the only thing I would like to suggest is "we" spend more time and resources going after the "kingpins" like Bin Laden and less breaking down little doors of some poor *** in Baghad who somebody "screwed over" just to get a little juice with the man. Just like the cops getting their giggles over arresting a local street peddler of drugs while the drug kingpins are going fee. Kill off the kingpins and the rest will wither and die on the vine for lack of anybody to lead them. This works for just about any criminal or terrorist enterprise or group. Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim) Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Sunday, December 18, 2005 3:25 PM canazar, I happen to agree with most of what you wrote. However, I believe that what we railfans experience is just a tiny bit of what is happening to our country. Yes, this arguably the best country to live in. For now. What bothers me are the trends I see: Loss of an individual's right to protest wherever they want. Erosion of the right to free speech. The near-elimination of our 4th Amendment rights against unlawful (read "just because the cop suspects") searches. Being seen as a "traitor" if you question the actions of the government instead of blindly believing everything they tell us. And a lack of "terror" attacks does not in any way imply that anything the government has done regarding the harrassment of citizens has made the slightest difference; you attribute effect to a cause, even though you merely imply the cause. And I do not think anyone that is operating with their lights on has gone back to thinking it is 9/10. The Patriot Act has seen to that (interesting how those laws were named "Patriot Act"; perhaps that was done so that anyone who questioned any of it could be reduced to a "non-patriot", which to some people feel is just one step away from being labeled a terrorist. And the reason I complain about the loss of rights is BECAUSE I "sat down and took a good look around". Every law that has passed that in some way restricts our freedoms has always been paraded as something we "need" to protect yourselves, either from some external evil empire, or from ourselves. For example: seat belt laws. Who the hell is that supposed to protect? Me? What if I do not like to wear them? What if I am more converned about being hit broadside and having the seatbelt hold me in place as the other car crashes through the driver's door? Should I not be able to choose for myself the level of safety I need? And is it just a coincidence that most states have now passed laws the give the piggies the right to pull you over for not wearing one? Whom am I risking other than myself? A victimless crime if I've ever heard of one. Yet we have these new laws. Are we so afraid of death that we are willing to live an existence that is so much less than what the Lord must have intended for us? For a people that claim to be so religious, we sure seem afraid of meeting the maker. Seems rather contradictory, doesn't it? And I can assure you, that if my wife/mother/father/brother/whatever was killed in the 9/11 attacks, and someone asked me if I would be willing to give up personal liberties for the rest of my life to save them, I would decline the offer. And if a relative of mine would be asked the same thing to save my life, I would be outraged if they agreed. I value freedom and liberty that much! As a famous man once said, and most citizens have forgotten, "Give Me Liberty of Give Me Death". By turning this once-great-and-wonderful country into the United States of Surveilence, it seems to me that the very things we are trying to protect are things we have already lost. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Sunday, December 18, 2005 4:16 PM Mr Z.. Well, I have to respectfully agree with you... Your right on alot of things . In this day in age alot of things have been taken to far. Civil laws, HAO's, imposeing in our descions and choices being made by others because they think they know more about me than I do Who the hell are you to tell me I cant smoke when I want to? I like my guns thank you. No, it is Merry Chrsitmas. I will say the Pledge they way it was ment. I do not fear God . My own quote I like so much..., This is one country that will put the wants of so few, above the needs of so many. But my point of my post was not above the freedoms and point of poiltical debates, and the turn of country in a whole. Yes, it is changeing, but it is a changieng world. Like the Steam, to F, to AC. The world is changeing and the rules have to as well. The bigger, the village, the more idoits you will have. It was about railfanning. In general and if you read some of the posts, some strong, some weak, but the scent of "our world is coing to an end and we are goign to go to jail cause we a got scanner" is there, and that just rubbed me the wrong way. It is is the way it is, perosnally, I do not think it is that bad as everyone says. For me and my son, it has been great. Just wish some folks would keep it real and quit haveing the attitude they are above others. Best Regards John k Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Sunday, December 18, 2005 5:29 PM canazar: Agreed. Thanks, John. Jim Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Monday, December 19, 2005 1:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? You completely missed the point. Not sure if you misunderstood my post or were too busy trying to scare me to fully understand what I was saying. If Big Brother or the G-man wants to check on me, or check me out.... Fine. I have nothing to hide. Nothing. I got a good family, my gun is legal, I own a nice business, I pay taxes, my front yard is raked and I like football and the dog even has his tag. I take comfort in the fact the Goverment is looking for the bad guys. Because they missed the last time in Sept. Also didnt see some white guy named Tim coming either. I am sure you know who he was. Hey, I know it is a different world than it used to be. Thats a fact of life. I am perferctly willing to lose "just a little of my freedom or time of my day" to keep it all from some joker who wants to blow it all up. Or, what good is it to have all your freedom you want and privacy if the family you loved is dead. Hey, strong and cold I know, but thats the bottom line. Real world example of what I mean. 2 months ago I went on a rail fanning trip along the BNSF Trans-Con around Flagstaff Arizona. I had pulled over off the I-40 on neighborhood rooad exit and walked up over a bridge that was over the railroad tracks. Small two-lane brige. Granted, I probably should not have been up there, no side walks and all but it was only 30 mph and traffic was very light. A train was coming and well, it was just too good of a spot to watch just one. Well, wouldnt you know it, I was done, walking back down a Department of Public Safefty Officer pulled by. (Kind alike a State Trooper to some of you, or maybe Highway Patrolman) And slowed and asked if I was OK... "Oh yeah, I am sorry, was just upwathcing trains. I am parked down there" and pointed to my truck. "Oh, Ok" he said and pulled on away, but to my surpruse, he pulled up behind my truck that was parked just off the road in the dirt. Gues it was slow day and he was bored. So, he gets out of the car just as I walk up. he had enough time before I got there to run my plate and call it in I am sure. "So, what brings you out here again?" Now, this is where the "attitude" comes into play. Sure, didnt have much right to do anything. I could have said **** off and given him greif. In which case, he would for sure sweated me, wasted his time trackign me down, wanting to know why I was playing hard to get. He would have wasted energy and time on me that could have used, to get someone who was breaking the law or who was up to no good. At the minimum, the next guy he saw wathcing trains was going to get a bad, bad day. But nope, I went all out to be nice guy. Thanks for doing your job. I coulda been a bad guy. Told why I was there, explained I was camping and over night road trip, hunting trains, what cat I say?. He asked for I.D., asked all the questions. Asked what was in the truck, "ya know got any weapons or drugs?". I said, "well since you mentioned it, I do have a hand gun in there", told him it was mine, legal, good to go, be more than happy to show it to you, in the red back pack. Looked in the back of the truck through the window and after a few said, "no, that's ok." He asked me some of the same questions again, to see if I was lieing. Nope told him the same responses agiain. Why not, its the truth. So after about 15 minutes of this, it turned to pleasent how's the weather chat. But then, I heard the horn and enough time had gone by, another one was coming... "Hey, go catch that one" pointing to my video camarea, "I got to go anyways" Have a nice day he said and on he went. I waved bye as I ran back up the bridge. And thats it. Im off the[soapbox] Best Regards John K Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Monday, December 19, 2005 8:52 AM I did not miss your point and I was not trying to scare you. I was presenting an example of the extemes that sometimes government will invoke predicated on our protection. I am all for the government protecting us but I'm not that confident, at least at the local level, they have the common sense to accompli***he task. In OK the Highway Patrol have a ten contacts (not tickets) per eight hour shift quota. Wonder if AZ has something similar and you became a contact in his report? Reply dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Monday, December 19, 2005 9:14 AM There is a delicate balance between defending, from a military point of view, or protecting from a LE POV, and not restricting freedoms. To answer the cries of something has to be done, the pendulum of action swings one direction. It may not always be the right course of action and will find criticism. The pendulum swings back the other way to the cry of civil liberty. The demands of complete protection and complete freedom, at no cost and without creating any hardship on anyone are making the social contract very difficult to maintain. Dan Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Monday, December 19, 2005 8:30 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar Real world example of what I mean. 2 months ago I went on a rail fanning trip along the BNSF Trans-Con around Flagstaff Arizona. I had pulled over off the I-40 on neighborhood rooad exit and walked up over a bridge that was over the railroad tracks. Small two-lane brige. Granted, I probably should not have been up there, no side walks and all but it was only 30 mph and traffic was very light. A train was coming and well, it was just too good of a spot to watch just one. Well, wouldnt you know it, I was done, walking back down a Department of Public Safefty Officer pulled by. (Kind alike a State Trooper to some of you, or maybe Highway Patrolman) And slowed and asked if I was OK... "Oh yeah, I am sorry, was just upwathcing trains. I am parked down there" and pointed to my truck. "Oh, Ok" he said and pulled on away, but to my surpruse, he pulled up behind my truck that was parked just off the road in the dirt. Gues it was slow day and he was bored. So, he gets out of the car just as I walk up. he had enough time before I got there to run my plate and call it in I am sure. "So, what brings you out here again?" Told why I was there, explained I was camping and over night road trip, hunting trains, what cat I say?. He asked for I.D., asked all the questions. Asked what was in the truck, "ya know got any weapons or drugs?". I said, "well since you mentioned it, I do have a hand gun in there", told him it was mine, legal, good to go, be more than happy to show it to you, in the red back pack. Looked in the back of the truck through the window and after a few said, "no, that's ok." He asked me some of the same questions again, to see if I was lieing. Nope told him the same responses agiain. Why not, its the truth. So after about 15 minutes of this, it turned to pleasent how's the weather chat. But then, I heard the horn and enough time had gone by, another one was coming... "Hey, go catch that one" pointing to my video camarea, "I got to go anyways" Have a nice day he said and on he went. I waved bye as I ran back up the bridge. And thats it. Im off the[soapbox] Best Regards John K And you do not feel that was over the bounds of the Fourth Amendment? Then I do not know if anything I could say will get you to reconsider. After you told him what you were doing, and he said ok, that should have been the end of it. RIGHT THEN AND THERE. You gave him no reason for him to ask you those other questions, and especially no reason for him to want to search your vehicle. NO REASON WHATSOEVER. Unless you actually believe that what he was doing in any way enhanced the security of our country. Don't get me wrong. If terrorists were actually responsible for the 9/11, then this country must do what it can to prevent this from happening again. But this can be done without turning the US into something resembling a totalitarian police state. And as long as most people seem willing to give up some of their rights for the illusion of safety, this situation will continue. Where does it end? How far are you willing to let the authorities go to enhance your "safety". How about random house searches? Government monitoring of the internet? Sound absurd? We already must allow the cops to search your vehicle for "reasonable suspicion". And what exactly is "reasonable suspicion"? Long hair? No hair? Being a minority? Being white? Standing on public property just watching trains? Do I sound paranoid? You bet!! And for good reason. BTW, canazar: I am not directing this specifically at you, even though I used your story as a catalyst for my rantings. I mean no disrespect. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Monday, December 19, 2005 9:19 PM None taken what so ever. This is good debate. Well, I can see this issue from both sides. It wasnt that long ago I used to volunteer with the Sheriffs Office. I have been in that same postion enough times to know what he was thinking. You take any chance you can get to find the bad guy. Granted I havent done alot of stops, my a couple dozen, compared to others who do it for a living. You would be shocked how often people who are breaking the law, and yo woudl never expect it. Good example of this? We working a large detail in part ofPhoenix when we saw a car over in a dark parkign lot. We pulled up to see what was the matter. We pull up and nice younger (middle 20's) lady in the car. I walked up and just to say hi and make sure she was ok. We were thining maybe car trouble or something. She was very nice indeed, never had any reason to wonder. She said she just pulled over to check directions on her map and didnt want to be in the street. Oh, good on you then Mam, have nice eveing. As my partner turned, to walk away, he caught a glimpse of a bottle shoved down in between the seats. Long story short. She was legally drunk, was arrested for DUI and her 3 year old daughter was taken out of the back seat and given to the father who had to come pick her up. We never knew she was drunk. Didnt smell it, didnt think about it. Never even looked for it. But there she was, a woman driving around drunk with a little girl in the back seat. Now granted, my deal was kinda of a stretch. But same rules aplly. looking back what happend to me? Nothing. I spent a few extra minutes of mine time and spent more shootin the breeze with a cool dude. And I got to see another train out of it. I can see how you will see it as overbearing. I just see it differently since I have been on the other side of the coin. Its tough. People yell you for harrasing them. Then they yell at you cause you dint see the bad guy steal your stero. . He was just doing his job keeping all types of baddies off the street. To each his own I suupose. Par tof life. That why we have regular, and light beer[:)] Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply domefoamer Member sinceSeptember 2003 51 posts Posted by domefoamer on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 12:36 AM How many photos of a train do you need to figure out how to place a bomb, twist a rail or otherwise disrupt its progress? All these secrets have been caught on film, from "The General" through countless Western movies. And how many photos do you need to figure out a train's schedules and vulnerabilities? None. How many blurry photos of trains can you make surreptitiously, from a cell phone camera or a passing car? As many as you want. So why would a serious terrorist plant himself in official view, wasting his time and maximizing his visibility? He wouldn't, except as a diversion from some actual attack. All this harassment of rail photographers amounts to is operational practice and CYA measures for the security squads. Reply domefoamer Member sinceSeptember 2003 51 posts Posted by domefoamer on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 12:45 AM Wait, I get it now. They're on the lookout for the fearsome photographer known as Anz El Adumz. Recognizable by the black prayer shroud he wears on his head as he pivots his large-format camera east, towards Mecca... Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:08 PM (Warning: May be considered off-topic by some)[}:)] Canazar, Zardoz, Eolafan, dharmon among others- I just wanted to say that even though there are some here who'd be upset because this thread is only vaguely discussing trains I'm glad to be able to talk with you guys about this kind of thing. It is good to know that regardless of what side of the political fence each of sits on (of course some of us probably straddle it too[:D]) that we can discuss our views and not simply throw a fit if someone disagrees with our opinions and beliefs. I do hope you guys didn't misconstrue my posting about the scanners, I don't see any harm in them myself, I was just trying to illustrate that sometimes we, as a society, can be commiting minor infractions of the law without even knowing it. I didn't ever think that operating my scanner while in the car would be an issue, but had the Michigan Highway patrolman decided to make it one, be it of his own accord or from my giving him reasonable suspicion, he could have made it an issue. Thankfully we both decided to be cool about it and let it go. He gave me a warning (very nicely as well) and I simply turned the scanner off. We both understood that since I was from out of state I probably didn't know better and that was it. I hate using ignorance as an excuse, but in this case it was no big deal, kinda a "no harm, no foul" situation. Please understand that I am in no way claiming that by having to turn off my scanner equals the end of civilized society nor does it equate with the loss of my civil liberties. As I said, I was simply referring to the situation to call attention to other situations that might occur. (Warning: Next section may be considered me on my soap box)[soapbox] I understand that the folowing is not what you were arguing John (canazar) but I personally think there is merit in discussing it further. It is the right of anyone reading this to agree or disagree with my statements. All I ask is you do so in a respectful manner. I'm relatively a young buck at the age of 27(well, I will be in like 2 weeks)and those of you who have chatted with me before know I'm not shy about giving my opinion. I tend to see thing from a similar standpoint as Zardoz. I see an erosion of not only our civli liberties, but the rights granted to us by our country's constitution. I don't mind playing by the rules, but why should I be expected to if the elected officials (politicians to sheriffs to judges) of this country don't have to play by a simlar set of rules. You can call me a bleeding-heart liberal or whatever you like but that doesn't change the fact that when the President of the United States (for the record, I'd feel this way no matter the last name of the President) goes on the air "live" and says he can order surveilance and bypass court orders because he is the Commander-in-Chief it makes me squirm a bit. I'm concerned because as he is the President of the United States, one of the most important leaders in the world and in a extremely high profile position of power, I feel he should want to go through the proper channels so as it would appear to those not as familiar with our country that he isn't attempting to abuse his powers. This country was founded with checks and balances in mind and, in my opinion, this is a situation it is easy to see why. I won't even go into detail regarding my thoughts on the secret intercepting of terror suspects. I'm not so naive to believe that things like this haven't happened before. I'm quite sure that they have. But times indeed are changing. Technology is making information on anything and everything more and more readily available and like it or not we have to accept the truth of it. Our techniques and plans need to change too. We need to understand that in order to make allies we need to treat them in the manner that they actually want to be treated, not how we think they want to be treated. Most importantly we have to be aware that while 9/11 showed how resilient and unified we can be as a nation, it also showed that even the great United States are vulnerable. As Dan said earlier, security is a fine line. I do understand this. But its also a two-way street if we are truly a country founded on freedom from oppression. Those out there enforcing do need to have some weight to throw around in order to keep this country secure. But they also need to be aware so that they aren't crossing the line abusing that very same power. Thanks for some great debate guys and thanks for letting me put in my [2c] Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply wadegexe Member sinceNovember 2002 From: US 5 posts Posted by wadegexe on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:29 PM The stretch of BNSF mainline east of Everett Wa to Snohomish is a good place to combine two hobbies, bicycling the county road and railfanning. Many good photos of crews and trains come from there, some of them of the crew snapping a shot of me! Only time I ever had a problem with anyone was when I caught a person in a plain sedan pointing his radar gun at a westbound stack train entering Lowell yard outside Everett. He got awfully upset at me and threatened to call the police if I didn't stop. Seeing as he was parked on a city street, I just smiled and pedalled on. Remember, it's just a hobby. Reply route_rock Member sinceJune 2004 From: Over yonder by the roundhouse 1,224 posts Posted by route_rock on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:17 PM Ok here it is in a nut shell folks. 1 Government monitoring of the internet? Already goes on. Your ina public forum NSA can come in and read what you write. So what about e-mails? I can go to your server and track your e-mail and even read it if so inclined. Encrypt it you say? No Such Agency again my friends! 2. Who did the pres say he authorized those so called eavesdropping tapes to be done on?AAnyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out to them.Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Canada listens to us we listen to them. We share info thats the way it is. Matter of fact just by mentioning NSA I bet some crazy program picks it up and they scrutinize me . Whatever like posted before nothing to hide. Point is I dont see Gestapo officers kicking your doors down, I dont see people shot in the streets or being oppressed or loss of civil liberties. You have fallen for hte hype my friends. i will go with Rons best line " Trust but verify" Here it is, the people clamoring about this knew about it for over a year!!! They are mad the elections in Iraq went well so lets start a full scale flame of the pres claiming how hes doing somehting illegal to americans! As bad as Kerry lying about our troops and that Murtha moron saying the army is a shambles! 30 years my butt he was a reservist over 3/4 of that period.Anything for a sound byte I swear. K off the soap box now . BTW I see a railfan out on my stretch of BNSF I wont call the cops, I may take your pic as a joke ;) But I am not that anal about getting a reward . Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Point is I dont see Gestapo officers kicking your doors down, I dont see people shot in the streets or being oppressed or loss of civil liberties. You have fallen for hte hype my friends. Here it is, the people clamoring about this knew about it for over a year!!! They are mad the elections in Iraq went well so lets start a full scale flame of the pres claiming how hes doing somehting illegal to americans! As bad as Kerry lying about our troops and that Murtha moron saying the army is a shambles! 30 years my butt he was a reservist over 3/4 of that period.Anything for a sound byte I swear. K off the soap box now . BTW I see a railfan out on my stretch of BNSF I wont call the cops, I may take your pic as a joke ;) But I am not that anal about getting a reward . Lets see, where do I start? Actually, it IS illegal in the US to modify a scanner to receive cell phone transmssions. Some of the older scanners (made before cell phones came on line) could pick up in the 800mhz band, but any scanner built within about 10 years is designed to bypass those frequencies. I see no problem there: a phone call should be private. As far as your gestapo comment, and also about being shot in the stgreets. Rather an extreme example, don't you think? But if it ever comes to that, historians will point to this time as when it all began. You do not see anyone oppressed or denied civil liberties?????????? Perhaps your age has something to do with that. You have spent most of your adult life living under these conditions, so it is unlikely you would notice it. That's one of the things that concerns me. Young people growing up these days have no idea of what liberties people in the US once had. So they have no reason to be upset. As long as they can download their favorite pop hits, and play their video games, all is right with the world. The only hype I see is the propaganda purveyed by the fox "news" channel. And what was all that about the president, and starting a flame war? You are the one trying to incite. Please do not turn this into a partisan argument. Kerry, Bush, whatever. The House and Senate are far more responsible for policy than the figurehead of the president. They're all puppets. I just wonder who is pulling their strings. And yes, I know about how the government can already monitor emails with the Eschelon computers. After all, DARPA was the agency most responsible for developing the internet in the first place. And most of the 13 servers that run the internet are located in the US. My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:00 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock Who did the pres say he authorized those so called eavesdropping tapes to be done on?AAnyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out to them.Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Canada listens to us we listen to them. We share info thats the way it is. Route Rock- I'm not questioning the legality of the wire taps and eavesdropping. The issues I take are two-fold: 1)- As you said, "Anyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out" being monitored as a terrorist threat, in my opinion, is extreme. That's not to say I don't understand the rationale behind it, I just don't agree with it. Our country was founded on freedom and our legal system founded on the idea that we are innocent until proven guilty. In this case it seems we aren't practicing what we preach. We are considering any one in this category guilty until they prove otherwise and even then we are still holding them under suspicion. Again I do understand the President's and even our government's motives however I don't think we are acting as a perfect example to the fledgling democratic Iraq we are supposed to be mentoring. 2)-I repeat my statement that I would feel uncomfortable with the President of the United States claiming it was okay for him to order surveilance and bypass the noraml process of having a judge provide a court order regardless if the President's last name was Bush, Clinton, Roosevelt, Lincoln or Washington. It may be a small issue and it may be that is there is plenty of precedent by those who have occupied the office prior to our current President, it still makes me nervous that a President would insinuate, no matter how petty the subject matter, that being Commander-in-Chief can supplant legal safeguards. Again, I don't think it sets a good example of democracy, especially in countries already looking at us with a critical eye. It's bad form. Finally, thanks for realizing that all of us nutjobs who like trains aren't a threat[:)] What can we say other than it's an odd hobby but a fun one. Next time I'm down in your neck of the woods I'll be sure to wave. [:D] Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:40 AM Very very funny reading all this about listening to telephone broadcast signals and whether its legal or not... Anyone here remember the first generation of cordless phones back in the late 70's and early 80's? like the retro one Sarah Jessica Parker has in her apt in the early episodes of Sex and the City? The big one with the big ol antenna on it? yes, that one, Well a friend (back in the day) told me that early analog phones like those used RADIO waves to transmit and that if you knew where to tune on your home stereo you could actually here them talking! I didnt believe it till he showed me how he could tune into his neighbors (who had one) phone by him calling him up and me listening in another room! Perfectly legal! Anything you can receive over an open frequency is perfectly legal to listen to, like CB's or shortwave HAMM radio. Remember those? Ah those were the days! Radio Shack still sold radio kits, Computers were still the realm of thick lensed geeks (and a 186 processor was cutting edge!), new cars still had carburators, Pac-Man was cutting edge game technology, and no one had ever heard of the Internet save a few professors and researchers. [:D] Have fun with your trains Reply StillGrande Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Alexandria, VA 847 posts Posted by StillGrande on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Wow! going to the bathroom is a felony in Oklahoma! No wonder the people there are so angry! [:D] Dewey "Facts are meaningless; you can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true! Facts, schmacks!" - Homer Simpson "The problem is there are so many stupid people and nothing eats them." Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:58 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by StillGrande QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Wow! going to the bathroom is a felony in Oklahoma! No wonder the people there are so angry! [:D] If you are not in a designated restroom, yeppers. Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,020 posts Posted by BigJim on Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:26 AM QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] That's pretty good. I will admit that I do have to tune into the ol' ding dong just to hear what to look out for next[alien][alien][alien] On a more serious note; As a railroader, for the most part, I have had no problems with railfans. Many of them, I either know or am familiar with and they are well behaved and pose no danger to themselves or the RR. I do have one nagging problem though that kind of sits in the far corners of my semi-conscious mind. These guys with scanners and computers and being able to hear and see everything the dispatcher does. Well, it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Sure, it is a great tool for the honest railfan. In one way I'm glad for them. I know very well how boring it can be waiting on a train. HOWEVER, with technology making such rapid advancements, how long will it be before someone figures out how to start throwing switches and changing signals? Hopefully at least not until after I retire! Any other T&E's out there have a thought on this? . Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:10 AM What differance does it make weather someone up to no good has a scanner or not? Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:15 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas What differance does it make weather someone up to no good has a scanner or not? Chad Chad Chad....If you DIDNT want to ride the Runaway Train... ...you shouldnt have gotten on at the last station![;)][:o)][:p] [:D] Have fun with your trains Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:36 AM Hmm, A runnaway train that makes station stops? Only if I can stand on the cab of a old Geep doing 50+ in a sub zero snow storm, and headed for boarded up tunnel at the end of the line.[;)] Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:13 PM Well every runaway train has made at least one start or last stop before the brake hoses snapped! [(-D] Have fun with your trains Reply AC6000CW Member sinceMay 2004 From: MILE POST k741.11 IN FLORIDA 216 posts Posted by AC6000CW on Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:31 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474 That right there is the primary reason I don't railfan anymore. I used to enjoy packing some snacks, a camera, and sodas and taking my son railfanning. It just isn't safe to do anymore. hey are you a engine operator ? http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5025 Reply route_rock Member sinceJune 2004 From: Over yonder by the roundhouse 1,224 posts Posted by route_rock on Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:01 PM Sighs Last I knew I still could go out and do what I wanted. No one tells me not to do anything except my wife. Another nutshell on 9/11 and 9/12 all I heard was who did this who did this? Then we get the well we dont know line. Intelligence services cut to the bare bones, people claiming if only we had good intel. We did have it we knew it was coming the previous admin jsut had its head up its own tu***oo far to see it coming. WTC 1993 look it up folks. Innocent until proven guilty ok. If you knew Mohamed Atta was going to fly into WTC 1 that morning would you have arrested him?COuld you have without ***able evidence?Nope He would have walked on that plane and done what he set out to do.Innocent till proven guilty ina court of law. If I get some info that can be proven then by god I am all for going after them arresting them adn putting them before ajury of their peers ( actually cant be done here as no one I know here wants to do suicide runs in the USA) Incite a flame war? Me? Sure I will! I am sick of hearing I support my troops but not the war. I was called a baby killer in Desert Storm by some wet bhind the ears daughter of a hippie. You cant support the troops and say I dont support what they are doing. I for one really dont see any personal freedoms lost over the years. Some of the rants about historians will look back and say it happened here well my friend all I can say is Prohibition. McCarthy. Seggregation for Japanese Americans. 1863 draft riot. Dont tell me we are losing freedoms when we are not. Lincoln banned rights to free press by burning out the compition. Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:56 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] That's pretty good. I will admit that I do have to tune into the ol' ding dong just to hear what to look out for next[alien][alien][alien] On a more serious note; As a railroader, for the most part, I have had no problems with railfans. Many of them, I either know or am familiar with and they are well behaved and pose no danger to themselves or the RR. I do have one nagging problem though that kind of sits in the far corners of my semi-conscious mind. These guys with scanners and computers and being able to hear and see everything the dispatcher does. Well, it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Sure, it is a great tool for the honest railfan. In one way I'm glad for them. I know very well how boring it can be waiting on a train. HOWEVER, with technology making such rapid advancements, how long will it be before someone figures out how to start throwing switches and changing signals? Hopefully at least not until after I retire! Any other T&E's out there have a thought on this? That's all that I was trying to say before everybody got all butt-hurt. Reply Edit dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan. Last time I checked, it took your vote to get them in office.........and your vote can get them out..... ...unless of course you took civics class as seriously as grammar..... Dan Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan Originally posted by ironken Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. You know what, if your operations and conversations were that important I think the railroads would spring for 800 Mhz encrypted trunk frequencies like the police and other law enforcement agencies use.
Originally posted by ironken Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken Yep, without foamers, the BNSF wouldn't exist and I would be out of a job. A great big thank you to all of the railfans that secure my job.........
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem here. Everythings cool in Chinatown. I got my hairs up at a couple of these posts that are crap.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken csmith, wasn't you at all. I just get a little burned up when some railfans act like it is their Constitutional right to come on the property, etc. If you like railfanning, cool. But Fort Worth can give a rip if they p.o. some railfans. Some guys are cool, don't trespass and in some cases have given guys rides back to the head end. I have on a few occasions B.S.ed with some railfans and had fun doing it. Some of the cats on this forum get a little millitant about the hobby and need to put into perspective. It's other peoples equipment and property and unless thay are off of the property, they are at the compnaies/employees mercy.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan Originally posted by ironken Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. You know what, if your operations and conversations were that important I think the railroads would spring for 800 Mhz encrypted trunk frequencies like the police and other law enforcement agencies use. You know what, that was a stupid statement! If our conversations are so unimportant as you elude to, then riddle me this. Why do you guys listen to them? The conversations are important to the safe movement of freight. Ever heard of Hazmat? You are from KCMO. I know it well. Put some hazmat on the ground near Kemper or in a more residential area and see what happens. This is a free exchange of ideas and knowledge. I do not read this forum to be called stupid. I take offense to you calling me stupid or my ideas stupid. I have never listened to a railroad frequency in my life. I railfan in spots where one is not necessary, so I can not answer why people listen to them but others on this post have answered. I never meant to say that your conversations are unimportant, but I do use a radio everyday at my work and could care less who listens to me. If you want to listen to my frequency than heck I will give it to you. My point was that banning scanners will not do any good to those actually willing to do harm to a railroad. I agree that communication is critical to the safe transport of all freight, not just hazmat, and I live within a mile of both NSs Avondale Yard BNSFs Murray yard so wrecks are of great concern to me personally. I just want to know how banning scanners or even encrypting railroad communication would further the goal of a secure infrastructure? Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:54 PM Hey Ironken, I'm not trying to start a fight. When I first read your post about scaners,atcs monitors,ect. my first reaction was what a jerk. I refrained from responding immediatly because it probably would have gone south from there. Now after thinking about it I can kinda understand where you are comming from. But when it comes down to it what is the differance between someone up to no good having a scanner or not? If someone is up to no good they are going to do there damage reguardless of what you guys are talking about. I myself don't pay attention to the scanner unless it's a detector going off or warrants being given out. I like the heads up so I can position myself accordingly for photos (if I'm taking pix). Where I railfan that warning is valuable as sometimes it takes several minuets to move to a good location (multiple tracks) for that approaching train. Now I am well aware that there are a lot of idiot railfans out there giving us a bad name but would banning scanners really do any good. After all idiots will be idiots, scanner equipt or not. And as far as the terrorist angle goes if somebody wants to listen to the RR radios there are many other ways to listen in if you don't have a scanner (any single sideband radio that covers the 160-161 range will work). And even if you had a secure channel a terrorist out to do harn can surely come up with a spotter and use cell phones to see you comming. Would you please explain yourself a little more? BTW- I don't intentionaly tresspass without permission, And I have given crewmembers rides a couple of times and it was because I had a scanner that I knew they needed a ride.[;)] Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Who's got the popcorn machine? Sorry Vic, I deleted my smart-a response I...I...I just don't know what came over me....must have been all the angry smilies. Hey, if it's an angry smilie do you call it a frownie, or a meanie, what? mike Reply Edit CopCarSS Member sinceAugust 2002 From: Turner Junction 3,076 posts Posted by CopCarSS on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:06 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Who's got the popcorn machine? Dang...I put it in storage. Haven't needed it in awhile. Let's see...where did I put it now?... -ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:09 PM Here you go guys. Reply CopCarSS Member sinceAugust 2002 From: Turner Junction 3,076 posts Posted by CopCarSS on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:20 PM I knew we kept you around here for a reason, Chad. [;)] -ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:25 PM Wow, PB, ever think about De-caff? Unfortunatly, and I hate to single you out, but you realizeing it or not, make a bad case for honest rails fans. In the last 2 years since I have kinda got hooked into ths whole railfan thing, (mostly cause my son and who is 5) I have not had a problem... In all honesty, maybe we get out and go "train hunting" every couple of months but in those times lets see here.... We have wandered around one of the mainyards down here (after hours) half dozen times and never been hassled, let alone stopped. At another yard, the yardmaster gave us a tour of Dash 9. At our local industry stop, the crews there have invited us up 2 twice, been intied intot he crew office 3 times, gotten latern, arm bands, glasses, ear plugs, and water (I admit, it was all for the kid, but still [:p]_ it was cool They let us wander more or less were ever we want. Take all the pictures we could ask for. I have had crewman comeout to the landing.... just to say hi. Some of them even took the time to tell me better spots for rail fanning or where this line went, who was getting what. So, if this what railfanning is coming down too..... [:)] I'll take it Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply CSXrules4eva Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Louisville, KY 1,345 posts Posted by CSXrules4eva on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:28 PM I think I'm going to need two bags of pop corn, the kind with the chesse please. LORD HELP US ALL TO BE ORIGINAL AND NOT CRISPY!!! please? Sarah J.M. Warner conductor CSX Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:31 PM Got butter? Guess I picked a good to stay home[:-^] sick Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:33 PM Voice of Marvin the manicly depressed robot-"here I am, brain the size of a planet and they have me making popcorn". [:(] Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:35 PM Ok fine, [:(!], Ill bite, how the heck do you "make" popcorn? I cant find the character. Maybe I dont have enough stars?[^] Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:38 PM John, quote me and cut and paste the line below: it's a link from another site. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:43 PM [:D] Thanks for that. Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:45 PM No problem, you can take over. It's been a long day and I am done. Goodnight all. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:52 PM by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic Reply Edit blhanel Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Cedar Rapids, IA 4,213 posts Posted by blhanel on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:08 PM Do you suppose it was submitted by the suspicious guy in Texas?[:D] Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:13 PM by ChrisBar "This is a free exchange of ideas and knowledge. I do not read this forum to be called stupid. I take offense to you calling me stupid or my ideas stupid." Read the first sentence of your first post again. You came off agressively and got treated with agression. Nobody said that you were stupid. I said that statement was stupid and I maintain that. Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Reply Edit vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:31 PM Mmmm...popcorn Have fun with your trains Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Reply Edit AlcoRS11Nut Member sinceJuly 2002 From: Stevens Point 436 posts Posted by AlcoRS11Nut on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 8:24 PM couple things.....one i was in the powder river basin video tapeing and photographing coal train, and here comes a BNSF truck (thinking "oh boy...im done now"), the BNSF guy stops and asks me what im doing (i naturally tell him) but the twist is he asks me if i was going to be there a while so he could run up to Alliance Yard and bring back some "BNSF stuff" for me, and gives me areas to go!!!! A RR employee actually helped me....after he left i was dumbfounded. Secondly...I will never stop railfanning...cause i have NOTHING TO HIDE!!!!! I love the smell of ALCo smoke in the Morning. "Long live the 251!!!" I miss the GBW and my favorite uncle is Uncle Pete. Uncle Pete eats Space Noodles for breakfast. Reply csmith9474 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Colorado Springs, CO 3,590 posts Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:47 PM I think a mojority of railroad employees are great folks that are sympathetic to our hobby, if they aren't railfans themselves. Smitty Reply videomaker Member sinceMay 2005 From: Hewitt,TX. 1,088 posts Posted by videomaker on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:50 PM Right on mehelich ! I agree with you ! Danny Reply videomaker Member sinceMay 2005 From: Hewitt,TX. 1,088 posts Posted by videomaker on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:55 PM Lets try this again,Right on mehrlich ! I agree with you ... Danny Reply TomDiehl Member sinceFebruary 2001 From: Poconos, PA 3,948 posts Posted by TomDiehl on Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:56 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:59 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Ok. I wasn't for sure. Thanks anyway. Allan. Reply Edit richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:37 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken [ As far as these tracking programs that some of you have....they should be banned. Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. It is kinda creepy when I have seen guys post ETD freqs. What kinda geek cares about the ETD freqs? And if you were in charge the USA would be a dictatorship? Reply paulstecyna21 Member sinceSeptember 2005 From: Willow Grove near NS tracks 158 posts Posted by paulstecyna21 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:40 AM that is interesting but the usa will not be dictatorship. http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/CW44AC/0001CSX-bc.jpg Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:42 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Reply paulstecyna21 Member sinceSeptember 2005 From: Willow Grove near NS tracks 158 posts Posted by paulstecyna21 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:46 AM oh really mr. hody tody god like smarty pants you have to run for president http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/CW44AC/0001CSX-bc.jpg Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:58 AM Chad...fire up the popcorn machine... mike Reply Edit CopCarSS Member sinceAugust 2002 From: Turner Junction 3,076 posts Posted by CopCarSS on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:11 AM I think we should call this a Phoenix thread. It's certainly doing a decent job of rising up from its own ashes! -ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar "This is a free exchange of ideas and knowledge. I do not read this forum to be called stupid. I take offense to you calling me stupid or my ideas stupid." Read the first sentence of your first post again. You came off agressively and got treated with agression. Nobody said that you were stupid. I said that statement was stupid and I maintain that. Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Ironken, I can see where you are comming from. In my line of work untill cell phones got popular 2-way radios were the main communications. I always assumed conversations were being listened to by many ears anyway so conversations were always kept professional. Of couse there are not to many cable tech fans standing down the street with a scanner watching me work. If that were to happen I would get a little creeped out too I guess. As for the ATCS monitor you bring up an interesting point, is it hacking? Off the cuff I would say no, the signal is airborne and you are only receiving. If you were to transmitt data and interfear with operations I would say yes, and you would be guilty of interfearing with interstate commerce. And I'm sure that would be a felony at the least. But that is not the case. The ATCS monitor is a receiver only and CAN NOT IN ANY WAY CONTROLL THE RAILROADS TRACK OR SIGNALS, and the creator of the software made sure there is no way the program can be modified to do so. I wouldn't worry about this too much, ATCS monitor takes some skill and effort to set up and only the die hard railfan will bother. You need a specialy modified scanner, a computer with a certain type of sound card, the ATCS program, and the software that interpets the data into a track diagram. Then it will only work in areas that use that system. In my area the BNSF transcon, and mabee the surf line are the only places this will work. Oh, and yes there is an effort to outlaw the ATCS monitor. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Reply tregurtha Member sinceApril 2004 104 posts Posted by tregurtha on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:32 AM It's a fine line these days. I've found that if you're respectful of railroad property and respectful of law enforcement and are honest about simply being a railfan you don't have much of a problem. After the London subway bombings earlier this year, I was approached by the CN police at the diamond in Durand, Michigan. Usually not a copy there but it may have had something to do with the bombings. A lot of folks gather at the restored station there, but I happened to be the only person there that day. The cop asked what I was doing (I had a scanner and camera). I was honest, I said I was a railfan, I said I was respectful of railroad property and always stayed safe, and he's was cool with that. It seems to be a few bad eggs that cause the problems. Ross R. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:32 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Now thats funny., I dont care who you are...[:D] Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by tregurtha It's a fine line these days. I've found that if you're respectful of railroad property and respectful of law enforcement and are honest about simply being a railfan you don't have much of a problem. After the London subway bombings earlier this year, I was approached by the CN police at the diamond in Durand, Michigan. Usually not a copy there but it may have had something to do with the bombings. A lot of folks gather at the restored station there, but I happened to be the only person there that day. The cop asked what I was doing (I had a scanner and camera). I was honest, I said I was a railfan, I said I was respectful of railroad property and always stayed safe, and he's was cool with that. It seems to be a few bad eggs that cause the problems. Ross R. Good answer Ross. I guess from a railroad employee's perspective on that fine line is to err on the side of safety. I got to thinking about the guy from Boston. There are a mulititude of great sites for railfanning in Texas. Meridian isn't one of them. If I was working around there and had probably never seen a railfan, I might have gotten suspicious too. He was probably just that, a rail fan, but he shouldn't have lied in the first place. mike Reply Edit chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Now thats funny., I dont care who you are...[:D] Here is the link http://www.socalrailfan.com/forums/showthread.php?t=362 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:25 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz So what is your point? Are we to be reassured because thisemployee was "on guard" (read paranoid). Or are we to be totally outraged because this "suspicious" person was found to be doing nothing more than having a hobby of 'recording' things. And now, because someone who obviously watches way too much news on the Fox channel, and is convinced that there is a swarm of terrorists just waiting to do damage in his little hick town in Texas, that he has been harrassed by not only two police departmentsand the railroad cops, but also he now has the 'attention' of the FBI. And he gets an AWARD for this?? The terrorists have won. We are now officially terrorzed. Of everything.....our shadows......ourselves......everyone. AMEN BRO what the big deal some wussy guy is scared of a camera and gets awarded i wish i was on a boxcar when he came down the tracks i would jump out yell SUPRISE & give him either a heart attack or a reson to call the cops[}:)][8D][:D] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:33 AM [8D] i belive that you should be able to take pic of trains as long as your not to close to the tracks if you pullover to the side of the road and arenot blocking trafiick your cool but if your going to follow the train & take som pics let some one else drive Reply Edit chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:37 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by THEBREEZE2005NYTX [8D] i belive that you should be able to take pic of trains as long as your not to close to the tracks if you pullover to the side of the road and arenot blocking trafiick your cool but if your going to follow the train & take som pics let some one else drive AMEN !!! especially when chaseing steam.[;)] Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 1:22 PM Okay, so let's agree that their isn't enough information to fully assess what happened. I'm sure that the authorities were acting in good faith for the welfare of the the railroad and their constituents. Mr. Strickland should be commended for his ability to recognize a potentially theatening situation and deal with it in the manner deemed appropriate by his company. But I have some concerns with some of the report: QUOTE: The suspect was questioned and it was then determined that he had been contacted earlier by local law enforcement agencies and that he was from the Boston area. While Boston is quite a distance from Texas, so what? Lots of people are from Boston, about 600,000 in Boston proper. Does this make any difference? QUOTE: After questioning him, agents verified his response with the agency. However, his responses were different from those given when previously contacted by local law enforcements. So they began a search of his vehicle and found several cameras, a scanner, a laptop and other recording equipment. Okay, so he changed his story. I agree that would make me a bit more suspicious. As for the items in the car, I often have these same items in my car everyday. I have a laptop with both an audio recording/editing program for work and photo editing program that will let me edit video. (Laptop and other recording equipment) I usually have a disposable camera in the care to take pics for insurance in case of an accident, and if I knew that I might get to see some trains, I'd probably have my scanner and my trusty old Minolta SLR with me ( several cameras, scanner) QUOTE: He was warned again that his observed behavior was suspicious in nature and he was told to stay away from BNSF property. He was also referred to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Homeland Security in Boston. This is what really gets me. Please tell me where, in this whole story, the perpetrator in question did anything more than change his story to the authorities. So what, he lied? Do you see anyone locking Clinton or Bush up for lies they've told? While I agree it is not the smartest move to change your story to the cops, so far as I can tell that is all he did. No where in this whole story does it say that he was tresspassing or on private property. No where in this story does it say he did anything to threaten the safety of the railroad employees or himself. No where does it say he failed to cooperate with the authorites. All it says is he was acting suspicious. For that he was referred to Homeland Security, and I presume he will be monitored. As Sarah (CSXrules4eva) says : "they can not JUST assume that he is a criminal. " I think that BNSF did what they felt was right, that the authorities did what they felt was right and that perhaps this fellow did what he thought was right. The story, at best, insinuates that there was some illegal, or at least, some questionable activity occuring here, but there is nothing said of pending charges against this person. Perhaps BNSF is not in the habit of divulging this information for their own legal reasons. Regardless, based on the lack of information I find it difficult to know who was in the right and who was in the wrong. There is just not enough information. What concerns me most is that based on the information in the story, I could go to railfanning at Eola Yard, tell a lie and be considered suspicious by Homeland Security. I enjoy railfanning and continue to enjoy it, but I have to admit this story is going to make me really paranoid next time I'm trackside. I wonder if the local authorities would consider that paranoia suspicious? Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 2:08 PM Unfortunately in these situations you have to lawyer up to defend yourself. I myself don't need a 4 figure lawyer fee everytime I have to defend myself (not that I've had to yet). Mabee we need some sort of railfan harrasment insureance and keep a lawyer that specializes in this sort of thing on retainer.[;)] Hey Gabe, hows your current job working out? [(-D] Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:12 PM Still say this guy got himself into trouble, if each time he was questioned , he had simply said, "name is so and so, I'm a railfan on vacation from Boston, just wanted to take some pics, I'm a visitor and unfamiliar with this lines schedules so I use the scanner to know where the train will be so I can be there get a picture of it" simple, be honest, dont act like a jerk, and for goodness sakes dont lie or change your story because you think you have some inherent right to stand on someone elses private property to take pictures. As for the guy who got the award, I'm still at a loss as to why people are upset that he was doing what he was told to do. So he gets a gold star on the fridge, big deal. Any heavy industry should be wary if for nothing else their own liability. After having a train here intentionally derailed by a teenage vandal recently, I'm glad someones keeping an eye out for possible troublemakers. Better safe than a toxic cloud of chlorine pouring thru my backyard.[;)] Have fun with your trains Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:33 PM The Railroad was very safe..........That's until the Railfan showed up. Allan. Reply Edit espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:42 PM We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 16, 2005 5:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Well Rich, I'm not goin anywhere unless you go and cry to the man. Wouldn't hurt my felings if you dropped outta here either. Do ya wanna start a little cyber flame war? Pretty fun to pop off on the computer from the comfort of your home. Try reading who the post is directed to....sure enough....not you. I guess that reading is not a qualification that big wheel broadcast engineers are required to posess.........Your turn. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 16, 2005 5:57 PM And the Flame wars continue! Allan. Reply Edit dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Friday, December 16, 2005 6:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Friday, December 16, 2005 7:06 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Correct...almost. Some states still have specific laws against scanners limiting who, when and where they can be legally used. As the technology changes sodoes the legislation and things are gradually easing off scanner usage. I know this after getting a warning about from an officer in Michigan that it was illegal to operate the scanner in my car. There is a ton of info at the following link, including tables about halfway down the page that list statutes for specific states: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/transportation/radar.htm It is interesting reading and evident that they are most worried about people using scanners to commit crimes. Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:19 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57 QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Correct...almost. Some states still have specific laws against scanners limiting who, when and where they can be legally used. As the technology changes sodoes the legislation and things are gradually easing off scanner usage. I know this after getting a warning about from an officer in Michigan that it was illegal to operate the scanner in my car. There is a ton of info at the following link, including tables about halfway down the page that list statutes for specific states: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/transportation/radar.htm It is interesting reading and evident that they are most worried about people using scanners to commit crimes. Mike If they ban scanners in all states, as ironken prefers, the criminals would still have receivers of some kind if they needed to monitor communications for their purpose. It seems the fact that scanners are illegal during the commission of a bigger crime would not matter to them. So banning scanners just removes another harmless hobby from the innocent people. Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:21 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Well Rich, I'm not goin anywhere unless you go and cry to the man. Wouldn't hurt my felings if you dropped outta here either. Do ya wanna start a little cyber flame war? Pretty fun to pop off on the computer from the comfort of your home. Try reading who the post is directed to....sure enough....not you. I guess that reading is not a qualification that big wheel broadcast engineers are required to posess.........Your turn. Just stating my opinion, what you do with it is up to you. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:42 AM whatever, clown. Reply Edit richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken whatever, clown. My point exactly! Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Saturday, December 17, 2005 7:34 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy If they ban scanners in all states, as ironken prefers, the criminals would still have receivers of some kind if they needed to monitor communications for their purpose. It seems the fact that scanners are illegal during the commission of a bigger crime would not matter to them. So banning scanners just removes another harmless hobby from the innocent people. Exactly. Who's mostly in favor of anti-gun laws? The criminal! Life is much easier for them if they know the citizens cannot protect themselves. The point is, as richardy stated, is that passing laws restricting freedoms only affects law-abiding people, as they are the only ones that will pay any heed to the laws. The criminal (by definition) does not, and cannot, care about laws. Reply eolafan Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Aurora, IL 4,515 posts Posted by eolafan on Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:46 AM Next thing we are likely to see is 50 cal. machine guns mounted on the locomotives and used to shoot railfans and a big sign on the sides of the box cars saying "Welcome to Osama, as long as you don't take pictures or use a scanner". Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:20 AM Kinda says it all! Reply Edit canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:12 PM Oh man, I am going to step in it now, ..but... been biting back and I havebeen reading some of your thoughts, now here is mine. You will either agree or disagree. Either support it, or will hate me. Fine. Some of you guys yack and complain so much about your loss of rights and "the Terrosits won!" You should sit down and take a good look around....... a REALLY good look around and be thankful instead of [banghead]ing. If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. My family lives in this country. If it means keeping safer cause some guy wants to ask me questions...? FIne, mind if I grab a seat, I got nothign to hide. You want to see what life is like when its really bad? Wanna know how scary life could be? Want to know what the one of the most life dangering things you could do? Ride a bus to work in Isreal. Heaven for bid you want to go out and have dinner...... On, Sept 12, 2001how many people were complaining we didnt do enough? . Amazing how so many of you have gone back to thinking its Sept 10th. I am sorry, how many terror attacks have we had since? Exactly. Obivously, something has worked and some poeple are busting their***to keep up the record. If someone asking me some question is my part. Hell yeah ask away, I am an American, how can I help? Anyone remember the little dereailiment of the Amtrak here in Phoenix back in the early 90's? Pretty sure that was a white dude (s). Some poeple in the G Squad havent forgotten that one, like alot havent forgotten what happen to the in LA back in the 30's. Hate to break it to you people, but waching trains is kinda wierd and fairly unknown in this day and age to people who dont know about us. So yeah, you got a bunch eletrical equipment in the car and some bad***photo gear standing by yourself? Guess what, better be prepared to explain your self. Doesnt bother me. In fact, I have made some pretty good RR freinds cause, someone said, "Excuse me, what are you doing?" Oh, cause you think your a middle age white dude thst gives you a get of jail free card cause your not a terrorist? Freakin please...... Anyone on law enforcement knows some guy who is 2 bit terrorist wont stand there, they will pay a white guy to do it. You see trains and Oh My God! An unpatched whatever.... Mr-G man sees you stareing at the most senseitive mode of transprortation and hunderds of cars of chemicals, gasses, and military shippments. You see this country owes you. I see it as I am greatful to be in this country. Done ranting. Sorry if I offend you, I am sorry. Above rant is my opinion. chances are then what you wrote, offended me. Best Regards, John Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply eolafan Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Aurora, IL 4,515 posts Posted by eolafan on Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:38 PM Oh, I agree with you fully...the only thing I would like to suggest is "we" spend more time and resources going after the "kingpins" like Bin Laden and less breaking down little doors of some poor *** in Baghad who somebody "screwed over" just to get a little juice with the man. Just like the cops getting their giggles over arresting a local street peddler of drugs while the drug kingpins are going fee. Kill off the kingpins and the rest will wither and die on the vine for lack of anybody to lead them. This works for just about any criminal or terrorist enterprise or group. Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim) Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Sunday, December 18, 2005 3:25 PM canazar, I happen to agree with most of what you wrote. However, I believe that what we railfans experience is just a tiny bit of what is happening to our country. Yes, this arguably the best country to live in. For now. What bothers me are the trends I see: Loss of an individual's right to protest wherever they want. Erosion of the right to free speech. The near-elimination of our 4th Amendment rights against unlawful (read "just because the cop suspects") searches. Being seen as a "traitor" if you question the actions of the government instead of blindly believing everything they tell us. And a lack of "terror" attacks does not in any way imply that anything the government has done regarding the harrassment of citizens has made the slightest difference; you attribute effect to a cause, even though you merely imply the cause. And I do not think anyone that is operating with their lights on has gone back to thinking it is 9/10. The Patriot Act has seen to that (interesting how those laws were named "Patriot Act"; perhaps that was done so that anyone who questioned any of it could be reduced to a "non-patriot", which to some people feel is just one step away from being labeled a terrorist. And the reason I complain about the loss of rights is BECAUSE I "sat down and took a good look around". Every law that has passed that in some way restricts our freedoms has always been paraded as something we "need" to protect yourselves, either from some external evil empire, or from ourselves. For example: seat belt laws. Who the hell is that supposed to protect? Me? What if I do not like to wear them? What if I am more converned about being hit broadside and having the seatbelt hold me in place as the other car crashes through the driver's door? Should I not be able to choose for myself the level of safety I need? And is it just a coincidence that most states have now passed laws the give the piggies the right to pull you over for not wearing one? Whom am I risking other than myself? A victimless crime if I've ever heard of one. Yet we have these new laws. Are we so afraid of death that we are willing to live an existence that is so much less than what the Lord must have intended for us? For a people that claim to be so religious, we sure seem afraid of meeting the maker. Seems rather contradictory, doesn't it? And I can assure you, that if my wife/mother/father/brother/whatever was killed in the 9/11 attacks, and someone asked me if I would be willing to give up personal liberties for the rest of my life to save them, I would decline the offer. And if a relative of mine would be asked the same thing to save my life, I would be outraged if they agreed. I value freedom and liberty that much! As a famous man once said, and most citizens have forgotten, "Give Me Liberty of Give Me Death". By turning this once-great-and-wonderful country into the United States of Surveilence, it seems to me that the very things we are trying to protect are things we have already lost. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Sunday, December 18, 2005 4:16 PM Mr Z.. Well, I have to respectfully agree with you... Your right on alot of things . In this day in age alot of things have been taken to far. Civil laws, HAO's, imposeing in our descions and choices being made by others because they think they know more about me than I do Who the hell are you to tell me I cant smoke when I want to? I like my guns thank you. No, it is Merry Chrsitmas. I will say the Pledge they way it was ment. I do not fear God . My own quote I like so much..., This is one country that will put the wants of so few, above the needs of so many. But my point of my post was not above the freedoms and point of poiltical debates, and the turn of country in a whole. Yes, it is changeing, but it is a changieng world. Like the Steam, to F, to AC. The world is changeing and the rules have to as well. The bigger, the village, the more idoits you will have. It was about railfanning. In general and if you read some of the posts, some strong, some weak, but the scent of "our world is coing to an end and we are goign to go to jail cause we a got scanner" is there, and that just rubbed me the wrong way. It is is the way it is, perosnally, I do not think it is that bad as everyone says. For me and my son, it has been great. Just wish some folks would keep it real and quit haveing the attitude they are above others. Best Regards John k Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Sunday, December 18, 2005 5:29 PM canazar: Agreed. Thanks, John. Jim Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Monday, December 19, 2005 1:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? You completely missed the point. Not sure if you misunderstood my post or were too busy trying to scare me to fully understand what I was saying. If Big Brother or the G-man wants to check on me, or check me out.... Fine. I have nothing to hide. Nothing. I got a good family, my gun is legal, I own a nice business, I pay taxes, my front yard is raked and I like football and the dog even has his tag. I take comfort in the fact the Goverment is looking for the bad guys. Because they missed the last time in Sept. Also didnt see some white guy named Tim coming either. I am sure you know who he was. Hey, I know it is a different world than it used to be. Thats a fact of life. I am perferctly willing to lose "just a little of my freedom or time of my day" to keep it all from some joker who wants to blow it all up. Or, what good is it to have all your freedom you want and privacy if the family you loved is dead. Hey, strong and cold I know, but thats the bottom line. Real world example of what I mean. 2 months ago I went on a rail fanning trip along the BNSF Trans-Con around Flagstaff Arizona. I had pulled over off the I-40 on neighborhood rooad exit and walked up over a bridge that was over the railroad tracks. Small two-lane brige. Granted, I probably should not have been up there, no side walks and all but it was only 30 mph and traffic was very light. A train was coming and well, it was just too good of a spot to watch just one. Well, wouldnt you know it, I was done, walking back down a Department of Public Safefty Officer pulled by. (Kind alike a State Trooper to some of you, or maybe Highway Patrolman) And slowed and asked if I was OK... "Oh yeah, I am sorry, was just upwathcing trains. I am parked down there" and pointed to my truck. "Oh, Ok" he said and pulled on away, but to my surpruse, he pulled up behind my truck that was parked just off the road in the dirt. Gues it was slow day and he was bored. So, he gets out of the car just as I walk up. he had enough time before I got there to run my plate and call it in I am sure. "So, what brings you out here again?" Now, this is where the "attitude" comes into play. Sure, didnt have much right to do anything. I could have said **** off and given him greif. In which case, he would for sure sweated me, wasted his time trackign me down, wanting to know why I was playing hard to get. He would have wasted energy and time on me that could have used, to get someone who was breaking the law or who was up to no good. At the minimum, the next guy he saw wathcing trains was going to get a bad, bad day. But nope, I went all out to be nice guy. Thanks for doing your job. I coulda been a bad guy. Told why I was there, explained I was camping and over night road trip, hunting trains, what cat I say?. He asked for I.D., asked all the questions. Asked what was in the truck, "ya know got any weapons or drugs?". I said, "well since you mentioned it, I do have a hand gun in there", told him it was mine, legal, good to go, be more than happy to show it to you, in the red back pack. Looked in the back of the truck through the window and after a few said, "no, that's ok." He asked me some of the same questions again, to see if I was lieing. Nope told him the same responses agiain. Why not, its the truth. So after about 15 minutes of this, it turned to pleasent how's the weather chat. But then, I heard the horn and enough time had gone by, another one was coming... "Hey, go catch that one" pointing to my video camarea, "I got to go anyways" Have a nice day he said and on he went. I waved bye as I ran back up the bridge. And thats it. Im off the[soapbox] Best Regards John K Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Monday, December 19, 2005 8:52 AM I did not miss your point and I was not trying to scare you. I was presenting an example of the extemes that sometimes government will invoke predicated on our protection. I am all for the government protecting us but I'm not that confident, at least at the local level, they have the common sense to accompli***he task. In OK the Highway Patrol have a ten contacts (not tickets) per eight hour shift quota. Wonder if AZ has something similar and you became a contact in his report? Reply dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Monday, December 19, 2005 9:14 AM There is a delicate balance between defending, from a military point of view, or protecting from a LE POV, and not restricting freedoms. To answer the cries of something has to be done, the pendulum of action swings one direction. It may not always be the right course of action and will find criticism. The pendulum swings back the other way to the cry of civil liberty. The demands of complete protection and complete freedom, at no cost and without creating any hardship on anyone are making the social contract very difficult to maintain. Dan Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Monday, December 19, 2005 8:30 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar Real world example of what I mean. 2 months ago I went on a rail fanning trip along the BNSF Trans-Con around Flagstaff Arizona. I had pulled over off the I-40 on neighborhood rooad exit and walked up over a bridge that was over the railroad tracks. Small two-lane brige. Granted, I probably should not have been up there, no side walks and all but it was only 30 mph and traffic was very light. A train was coming and well, it was just too good of a spot to watch just one. Well, wouldnt you know it, I was done, walking back down a Department of Public Safefty Officer pulled by. (Kind alike a State Trooper to some of you, or maybe Highway Patrolman) And slowed and asked if I was OK... "Oh yeah, I am sorry, was just upwathcing trains. I am parked down there" and pointed to my truck. "Oh, Ok" he said and pulled on away, but to my surpruse, he pulled up behind my truck that was parked just off the road in the dirt. Gues it was slow day and he was bored. So, he gets out of the car just as I walk up. he had enough time before I got there to run my plate and call it in I am sure. "So, what brings you out here again?" Told why I was there, explained I was camping and over night road trip, hunting trains, what cat I say?. He asked for I.D., asked all the questions. Asked what was in the truck, "ya know got any weapons or drugs?". I said, "well since you mentioned it, I do have a hand gun in there", told him it was mine, legal, good to go, be more than happy to show it to you, in the red back pack. Looked in the back of the truck through the window and after a few said, "no, that's ok." He asked me some of the same questions again, to see if I was lieing. Nope told him the same responses agiain. Why not, its the truth. So after about 15 minutes of this, it turned to pleasent how's the weather chat. But then, I heard the horn and enough time had gone by, another one was coming... "Hey, go catch that one" pointing to my video camarea, "I got to go anyways" Have a nice day he said and on he went. I waved bye as I ran back up the bridge. And thats it. Im off the[soapbox] Best Regards John K And you do not feel that was over the bounds of the Fourth Amendment? Then I do not know if anything I could say will get you to reconsider. After you told him what you were doing, and he said ok, that should have been the end of it. RIGHT THEN AND THERE. You gave him no reason for him to ask you those other questions, and especially no reason for him to want to search your vehicle. NO REASON WHATSOEVER. Unless you actually believe that what he was doing in any way enhanced the security of our country. Don't get me wrong. If terrorists were actually responsible for the 9/11, then this country must do what it can to prevent this from happening again. But this can be done without turning the US into something resembling a totalitarian police state. And as long as most people seem willing to give up some of their rights for the illusion of safety, this situation will continue. Where does it end? How far are you willing to let the authorities go to enhance your "safety". How about random house searches? Government monitoring of the internet? Sound absurd? We already must allow the cops to search your vehicle for "reasonable suspicion". And what exactly is "reasonable suspicion"? Long hair? No hair? Being a minority? Being white? Standing on public property just watching trains? Do I sound paranoid? You bet!! And for good reason. BTW, canazar: I am not directing this specifically at you, even though I used your story as a catalyst for my rantings. I mean no disrespect. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Monday, December 19, 2005 9:19 PM None taken what so ever. This is good debate. Well, I can see this issue from both sides. It wasnt that long ago I used to volunteer with the Sheriffs Office. I have been in that same postion enough times to know what he was thinking. You take any chance you can get to find the bad guy. Granted I havent done alot of stops, my a couple dozen, compared to others who do it for a living. You would be shocked how often people who are breaking the law, and yo woudl never expect it. Good example of this? We working a large detail in part ofPhoenix when we saw a car over in a dark parkign lot. We pulled up to see what was the matter. We pull up and nice younger (middle 20's) lady in the car. I walked up and just to say hi and make sure she was ok. We were thining maybe car trouble or something. She was very nice indeed, never had any reason to wonder. She said she just pulled over to check directions on her map and didnt want to be in the street. Oh, good on you then Mam, have nice eveing. As my partner turned, to walk away, he caught a glimpse of a bottle shoved down in between the seats. Long story short. She was legally drunk, was arrested for DUI and her 3 year old daughter was taken out of the back seat and given to the father who had to come pick her up. We never knew she was drunk. Didnt smell it, didnt think about it. Never even looked for it. But there she was, a woman driving around drunk with a little girl in the back seat. Now granted, my deal was kinda of a stretch. But same rules aplly. looking back what happend to me? Nothing. I spent a few extra minutes of mine time and spent more shootin the breeze with a cool dude. And I got to see another train out of it. I can see how you will see it as overbearing. I just see it differently since I have been on the other side of the coin. Its tough. People yell you for harrasing them. Then they yell at you cause you dint see the bad guy steal your stero. . He was just doing his job keeping all types of baddies off the street. To each his own I suupose. Par tof life. That why we have regular, and light beer[:)] Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply domefoamer Member sinceSeptember 2003 51 posts Posted by domefoamer on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 12:36 AM How many photos of a train do you need to figure out how to place a bomb, twist a rail or otherwise disrupt its progress? All these secrets have been caught on film, from "The General" through countless Western movies. And how many photos do you need to figure out a train's schedules and vulnerabilities? None. How many blurry photos of trains can you make surreptitiously, from a cell phone camera or a passing car? As many as you want. So why would a serious terrorist plant himself in official view, wasting his time and maximizing his visibility? He wouldn't, except as a diversion from some actual attack. All this harassment of rail photographers amounts to is operational practice and CYA measures for the security squads. Reply domefoamer Member sinceSeptember 2003 51 posts Posted by domefoamer on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 12:45 AM Wait, I get it now. They're on the lookout for the fearsome photographer known as Anz El Adumz. Recognizable by the black prayer shroud he wears on his head as he pivots his large-format camera east, towards Mecca... Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:08 PM (Warning: May be considered off-topic by some)[}:)] Canazar, Zardoz, Eolafan, dharmon among others- I just wanted to say that even though there are some here who'd be upset because this thread is only vaguely discussing trains I'm glad to be able to talk with you guys about this kind of thing. It is good to know that regardless of what side of the political fence each of sits on (of course some of us probably straddle it too[:D]) that we can discuss our views and not simply throw a fit if someone disagrees with our opinions and beliefs. I do hope you guys didn't misconstrue my posting about the scanners, I don't see any harm in them myself, I was just trying to illustrate that sometimes we, as a society, can be commiting minor infractions of the law without even knowing it. I didn't ever think that operating my scanner while in the car would be an issue, but had the Michigan Highway patrolman decided to make it one, be it of his own accord or from my giving him reasonable suspicion, he could have made it an issue. Thankfully we both decided to be cool about it and let it go. He gave me a warning (very nicely as well) and I simply turned the scanner off. We both understood that since I was from out of state I probably didn't know better and that was it. I hate using ignorance as an excuse, but in this case it was no big deal, kinda a "no harm, no foul" situation. Please understand that I am in no way claiming that by having to turn off my scanner equals the end of civilized society nor does it equate with the loss of my civil liberties. As I said, I was simply referring to the situation to call attention to other situations that might occur. (Warning: Next section may be considered me on my soap box)[soapbox] I understand that the folowing is not what you were arguing John (canazar) but I personally think there is merit in discussing it further. It is the right of anyone reading this to agree or disagree with my statements. All I ask is you do so in a respectful manner. I'm relatively a young buck at the age of 27(well, I will be in like 2 weeks)and those of you who have chatted with me before know I'm not shy about giving my opinion. I tend to see thing from a similar standpoint as Zardoz. I see an erosion of not only our civli liberties, but the rights granted to us by our country's constitution. I don't mind playing by the rules, but why should I be expected to if the elected officials (politicians to sheriffs to judges) of this country don't have to play by a simlar set of rules. You can call me a bleeding-heart liberal or whatever you like but that doesn't change the fact that when the President of the United States (for the record, I'd feel this way no matter the last name of the President) goes on the air "live" and says he can order surveilance and bypass court orders because he is the Commander-in-Chief it makes me squirm a bit. I'm concerned because as he is the President of the United States, one of the most important leaders in the world and in a extremely high profile position of power, I feel he should want to go through the proper channels so as it would appear to those not as familiar with our country that he isn't attempting to abuse his powers. This country was founded with checks and balances in mind and, in my opinion, this is a situation it is easy to see why. I won't even go into detail regarding my thoughts on the secret intercepting of terror suspects. I'm not so naive to believe that things like this haven't happened before. I'm quite sure that they have. But times indeed are changing. Technology is making information on anything and everything more and more readily available and like it or not we have to accept the truth of it. Our techniques and plans need to change too. We need to understand that in order to make allies we need to treat them in the manner that they actually want to be treated, not how we think they want to be treated. Most importantly we have to be aware that while 9/11 showed how resilient and unified we can be as a nation, it also showed that even the great United States are vulnerable. As Dan said earlier, security is a fine line. I do understand this. But its also a two-way street if we are truly a country founded on freedom from oppression. Those out there enforcing do need to have some weight to throw around in order to keep this country secure. But they also need to be aware so that they aren't crossing the line abusing that very same power. Thanks for some great debate guys and thanks for letting me put in my [2c] Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply wadegexe Member sinceNovember 2002 From: US 5 posts Posted by wadegexe on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:29 PM The stretch of BNSF mainline east of Everett Wa to Snohomish is a good place to combine two hobbies, bicycling the county road and railfanning. Many good photos of crews and trains come from there, some of them of the crew snapping a shot of me! Only time I ever had a problem with anyone was when I caught a person in a plain sedan pointing his radar gun at a westbound stack train entering Lowell yard outside Everett. He got awfully upset at me and threatened to call the police if I didn't stop. Seeing as he was parked on a city street, I just smiled and pedalled on. Remember, it's just a hobby. Reply route_rock Member sinceJune 2004 From: Over yonder by the roundhouse 1,224 posts Posted by route_rock on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:17 PM Ok here it is in a nut shell folks. 1 Government monitoring of the internet? Already goes on. Your ina public forum NSA can come in and read what you write. So what about e-mails? I can go to your server and track your e-mail and even read it if so inclined. Encrypt it you say? No Such Agency again my friends! 2. Who did the pres say he authorized those so called eavesdropping tapes to be done on?AAnyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out to them.Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Canada listens to us we listen to them. We share info thats the way it is. Matter of fact just by mentioning NSA I bet some crazy program picks it up and they scrutinize me . Whatever like posted before nothing to hide. Point is I dont see Gestapo officers kicking your doors down, I dont see people shot in the streets or being oppressed or loss of civil liberties. You have fallen for hte hype my friends. i will go with Rons best line " Trust but verify" Here it is, the people clamoring about this knew about it for over a year!!! They are mad the elections in Iraq went well so lets start a full scale flame of the pres claiming how hes doing somehting illegal to americans! As bad as Kerry lying about our troops and that Murtha moron saying the army is a shambles! 30 years my butt he was a reservist over 3/4 of that period.Anything for a sound byte I swear. K off the soap box now . BTW I see a railfan out on my stretch of BNSF I wont call the cops, I may take your pic as a joke ;) But I am not that anal about getting a reward . Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Point is I dont see Gestapo officers kicking your doors down, I dont see people shot in the streets or being oppressed or loss of civil liberties. You have fallen for hte hype my friends. Here it is, the people clamoring about this knew about it for over a year!!! They are mad the elections in Iraq went well so lets start a full scale flame of the pres claiming how hes doing somehting illegal to americans! As bad as Kerry lying about our troops and that Murtha moron saying the army is a shambles! 30 years my butt he was a reservist over 3/4 of that period.Anything for a sound byte I swear. K off the soap box now . BTW I see a railfan out on my stretch of BNSF I wont call the cops, I may take your pic as a joke ;) But I am not that anal about getting a reward . Lets see, where do I start? Actually, it IS illegal in the US to modify a scanner to receive cell phone transmssions. Some of the older scanners (made before cell phones came on line) could pick up in the 800mhz band, but any scanner built within about 10 years is designed to bypass those frequencies. I see no problem there: a phone call should be private. As far as your gestapo comment, and also about being shot in the stgreets. Rather an extreme example, don't you think? But if it ever comes to that, historians will point to this time as when it all began. You do not see anyone oppressed or denied civil liberties?????????? Perhaps your age has something to do with that. You have spent most of your adult life living under these conditions, so it is unlikely you would notice it. That's one of the things that concerns me. Young people growing up these days have no idea of what liberties people in the US once had. So they have no reason to be upset. As long as they can download their favorite pop hits, and play their video games, all is right with the world. The only hype I see is the propaganda purveyed by the fox "news" channel. And what was all that about the president, and starting a flame war? You are the one trying to incite. Please do not turn this into a partisan argument. Kerry, Bush, whatever. The House and Senate are far more responsible for policy than the figurehead of the president. They're all puppets. I just wonder who is pulling their strings. And yes, I know about how the government can already monitor emails with the Eschelon computers. After all, DARPA was the agency most responsible for developing the internet in the first place. And most of the 13 servers that run the internet are located in the US. My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:00 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock Who did the pres say he authorized those so called eavesdropping tapes to be done on?AAnyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out to them.Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Canada listens to us we listen to them. We share info thats the way it is. Route Rock- I'm not questioning the legality of the wire taps and eavesdropping. The issues I take are two-fold: 1)- As you said, "Anyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out" being monitored as a terrorist threat, in my opinion, is extreme. That's not to say I don't understand the rationale behind it, I just don't agree with it. Our country was founded on freedom and our legal system founded on the idea that we are innocent until proven guilty. In this case it seems we aren't practicing what we preach. We are considering any one in this category guilty until they prove otherwise and even then we are still holding them under suspicion. Again I do understand the President's and even our government's motives however I don't think we are acting as a perfect example to the fledgling democratic Iraq we are supposed to be mentoring. 2)-I repeat my statement that I would feel uncomfortable with the President of the United States claiming it was okay for him to order surveilance and bypass the noraml process of having a judge provide a court order regardless if the President's last name was Bush, Clinton, Roosevelt, Lincoln or Washington. It may be a small issue and it may be that is there is plenty of precedent by those who have occupied the office prior to our current President, it still makes me nervous that a President would insinuate, no matter how petty the subject matter, that being Commander-in-Chief can supplant legal safeguards. Again, I don't think it sets a good example of democracy, especially in countries already looking at us with a critical eye. It's bad form. Finally, thanks for realizing that all of us nutjobs who like trains aren't a threat[:)] What can we say other than it's an odd hobby but a fun one. Next time I'm down in your neck of the woods I'll be sure to wave. [:D] Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:40 AM Very very funny reading all this about listening to telephone broadcast signals and whether its legal or not... Anyone here remember the first generation of cordless phones back in the late 70's and early 80's? like the retro one Sarah Jessica Parker has in her apt in the early episodes of Sex and the City? The big one with the big ol antenna on it? yes, that one, Well a friend (back in the day) told me that early analog phones like those used RADIO waves to transmit and that if you knew where to tune on your home stereo you could actually here them talking! I didnt believe it till he showed me how he could tune into his neighbors (who had one) phone by him calling him up and me listening in another room! Perfectly legal! Anything you can receive over an open frequency is perfectly legal to listen to, like CB's or shortwave HAMM radio. Remember those? Ah those were the days! Radio Shack still sold radio kits, Computers were still the realm of thick lensed geeks (and a 186 processor was cutting edge!), new cars still had carburators, Pac-Man was cutting edge game technology, and no one had ever heard of the Internet save a few professors and researchers. [:D] Have fun with your trains Reply StillGrande Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Alexandria, VA 847 posts Posted by StillGrande on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Wow! going to the bathroom is a felony in Oklahoma! No wonder the people there are so angry! [:D] Dewey "Facts are meaningless; you can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true! Facts, schmacks!" - Homer Simpson "The problem is there are so many stupid people and nothing eats them." Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:58 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by StillGrande QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Wow! going to the bathroom is a felony in Oklahoma! No wonder the people there are so angry! [:D] If you are not in a designated restroom, yeppers. Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,020 posts Posted by BigJim on Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:26 AM QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] That's pretty good. I will admit that I do have to tune into the ol' ding dong just to hear what to look out for next[alien][alien][alien] On a more serious note; As a railroader, for the most part, I have had no problems with railfans. Many of them, I either know or am familiar with and they are well behaved and pose no danger to themselves or the RR. I do have one nagging problem though that kind of sits in the far corners of my semi-conscious mind. These guys with scanners and computers and being able to hear and see everything the dispatcher does. Well, it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Sure, it is a great tool for the honest railfan. In one way I'm glad for them. I know very well how boring it can be waiting on a train. HOWEVER, with technology making such rapid advancements, how long will it be before someone figures out how to start throwing switches and changing signals? Hopefully at least not until after I retire! Any other T&E's out there have a thought on this? . Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:10 AM What differance does it make weather someone up to no good has a scanner or not? Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:15 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas What differance does it make weather someone up to no good has a scanner or not? Chad Chad Chad....If you DIDNT want to ride the Runaway Train... ...you shouldnt have gotten on at the last station![;)][:o)][:p] [:D] Have fun with your trains Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:36 AM Hmm, A runnaway train that makes station stops? Only if I can stand on the cab of a old Geep doing 50+ in a sub zero snow storm, and headed for boarded up tunnel at the end of the line.[;)] Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:13 PM Well every runaway train has made at least one start or last stop before the brake hoses snapped! [(-D] Have fun with your trains Reply AC6000CW Member sinceMay 2004 From: MILE POST k741.11 IN FLORIDA 216 posts Posted by AC6000CW on Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:31 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474 That right there is the primary reason I don't railfan anymore. I used to enjoy packing some snacks, a camera, and sodas and taking my son railfanning. It just isn't safe to do anymore. hey are you a engine operator ? http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5025 Reply route_rock Member sinceJune 2004 From: Over yonder by the roundhouse 1,224 posts Posted by route_rock on Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:01 PM Sighs Last I knew I still could go out and do what I wanted. No one tells me not to do anything except my wife. Another nutshell on 9/11 and 9/12 all I heard was who did this who did this? Then we get the well we dont know line. Intelligence services cut to the bare bones, people claiming if only we had good intel. We did have it we knew it was coming the previous admin jsut had its head up its own tu***oo far to see it coming. WTC 1993 look it up folks. Innocent until proven guilty ok. If you knew Mohamed Atta was going to fly into WTC 1 that morning would you have arrested him?COuld you have without ***able evidence?Nope He would have walked on that plane and done what he set out to do.Innocent till proven guilty ina court of law. If I get some info that can be proven then by god I am all for going after them arresting them adn putting them before ajury of their peers ( actually cant be done here as no one I know here wants to do suicide runs in the USA) Incite a flame war? Me? Sure I will! I am sick of hearing I support my troops but not the war. I was called a baby killer in Desert Storm by some wet bhind the ears daughter of a hippie. You cant support the troops and say I dont support what they are doing. I for one really dont see any personal freedoms lost over the years. Some of the rants about historians will look back and say it happened here well my friend all I can say is Prohibition. McCarthy. Seggregation for Japanese Americans. 1863 draft riot. Dont tell me we are losing freedoms when we are not. Lincoln banned rights to free press by burning out the compition. Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:56 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] That's pretty good. I will admit that I do have to tune into the ol' ding dong just to hear what to look out for next[alien][alien][alien] On a more serious note; As a railroader, for the most part, I have had no problems with railfans. Many of them, I either know or am familiar with and they are well behaved and pose no danger to themselves or the RR. I do have one nagging problem though that kind of sits in the far corners of my semi-conscious mind. These guys with scanners and computers and being able to hear and see everything the dispatcher does. Well, it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Sure, it is a great tool for the honest railfan. In one way I'm glad for them. I know very well how boring it can be waiting on a train. HOWEVER, with technology making such rapid advancements, how long will it be before someone figures out how to start throwing switches and changing signals? Hopefully at least not until after I retire! Any other T&E's out there have a thought on this? That's all that I was trying to say before everybody got all butt-hurt. Reply Edit dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan. Last time I checked, it took your vote to get them in office.........and your vote can get them out..... ...unless of course you took civics class as seriously as grammar..... Dan Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisBARailfan Originally posted by ironken Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. You know what, if your operations and conversations were that important I think the railroads would spring for 800 Mhz encrypted trunk frequencies like the police and other law enforcement agencies use. You know what, that was a stupid statement! If our conversations are so unimportant as you elude to, then riddle me this. Why do you guys listen to them? The conversations are important to the safe movement of freight. Ever heard of Hazmat? You are from KCMO. I know it well. Put some hazmat on the ground near Kemper or in a more residential area and see what happens.
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith Who's got the popcorn machine?
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion.
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan.
QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Ok. I wasn't for sure. Thanks anyway. Allan. Reply Edit richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:37 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken [ As far as these tracking programs that some of you have....they should be banned. Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. It is kinda creepy when I have seen guys post ETD freqs. What kinda geek cares about the ETD freqs? And if you were in charge the USA would be a dictatorship? Reply paulstecyna21 Member sinceSeptember 2005 From: Willow Grove near NS tracks 158 posts Posted by paulstecyna21 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:40 AM that is interesting but the usa will not be dictatorship. http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/CW44AC/0001CSX-bc.jpg Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:42 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Reply paulstecyna21 Member sinceSeptember 2005 From: Willow Grove near NS tracks 158 posts Posted by paulstecyna21 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:46 AM oh really mr. hody tody god like smarty pants you have to run for president http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/CW44AC/0001CSX-bc.jpg Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:58 AM Chad...fire up the popcorn machine... mike Reply Edit CopCarSS Member sinceAugust 2002 From: Turner Junction 3,076 posts Posted by CopCarSS on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:11 AM I think we should call this a Phoenix thread. It's certainly doing a decent job of rising up from its own ashes! -ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:16 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar "This is a free exchange of ideas and knowledge. I do not read this forum to be called stupid. I take offense to you calling me stupid or my ideas stupid." Read the first sentence of your first post again. You came off agressively and got treated with agression. Nobody said that you were stupid. I said that statement was stupid and I maintain that. Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Ironken, I can see where you are comming from. In my line of work untill cell phones got popular 2-way radios were the main communications. I always assumed conversations were being listened to by many ears anyway so conversations were always kept professional. Of couse there are not to many cable tech fans standing down the street with a scanner watching me work. If that were to happen I would get a little creeped out too I guess. As for the ATCS monitor you bring up an interesting point, is it hacking? Off the cuff I would say no, the signal is airborne and you are only receiving. If you were to transmitt data and interfear with operations I would say yes, and you would be guilty of interfearing with interstate commerce. And I'm sure that would be a felony at the least. But that is not the case. The ATCS monitor is a receiver only and CAN NOT IN ANY WAY CONTROLL THE RAILROADS TRACK OR SIGNALS, and the creator of the software made sure there is no way the program can be modified to do so. I wouldn't worry about this too much, ATCS monitor takes some skill and effort to set up and only the die hard railfan will bother. You need a specialy modified scanner, a computer with a certain type of sound card, the ATCS program, and the software that interpets the data into a track diagram. Then it will only work in areas that use that system. In my area the BNSF transcon, and mabee the surf line are the only places this will work. Oh, and yes there is an effort to outlaw the ATCS monitor. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Reply tregurtha Member sinceApril 2004 104 posts Posted by tregurtha on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:32 AM It's a fine line these days. I've found that if you're respectful of railroad property and respectful of law enforcement and are honest about simply being a railfan you don't have much of a problem. After the London subway bombings earlier this year, I was approached by the CN police at the diamond in Durand, Michigan. Usually not a copy there but it may have had something to do with the bombings. A lot of folks gather at the restored station there, but I happened to be the only person there that day. The cop asked what I was doing (I had a scanner and camera). I was honest, I said I was a railfan, I said I was respectful of railroad property and always stayed safe, and he's was cool with that. It seems to be a few bad eggs that cause the problems. Ross R. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:32 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Now thats funny., I dont care who you are...[:D] Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 10:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by tregurtha It's a fine line these days. I've found that if you're respectful of railroad property and respectful of law enforcement and are honest about simply being a railfan you don't have much of a problem. After the London subway bombings earlier this year, I was approached by the CN police at the diamond in Durand, Michigan. Usually not a copy there but it may have had something to do with the bombings. A lot of folks gather at the restored station there, but I happened to be the only person there that day. The cop asked what I was doing (I had a scanner and camera). I was honest, I said I was a railfan, I said I was respectful of railroad property and always stayed safe, and he's was cool with that. It seems to be a few bad eggs that cause the problems. Ross R. Good answer Ross. I guess from a railroad employee's perspective on that fine line is to err on the side of safety. I got to thinking about the guy from Boston. There are a mulititude of great sites for railfanning in Texas. Meridian isn't one of them. If I was working around there and had probably never seen a railfan, I might have gotten suspicious too. He was probably just that, a rail fan, but he shouldn't have lied in the first place. mike Reply Edit chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Now thats funny., I dont care who you are...[:D] Here is the link http://www.socalrailfan.com/forums/showthread.php?t=362 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:25 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz So what is your point? Are we to be reassured because thisemployee was "on guard" (read paranoid). Or are we to be totally outraged because this "suspicious" person was found to be doing nothing more than having a hobby of 'recording' things. And now, because someone who obviously watches way too much news on the Fox channel, and is convinced that there is a swarm of terrorists just waiting to do damage in his little hick town in Texas, that he has been harrassed by not only two police departmentsand the railroad cops, but also he now has the 'attention' of the FBI. And he gets an AWARD for this?? The terrorists have won. We are now officially terrorzed. Of everything.....our shadows......ourselves......everyone. AMEN BRO what the big deal some wussy guy is scared of a camera and gets awarded i wish i was on a boxcar when he came down the tracks i would jump out yell SUPRISE & give him either a heart attack or a reson to call the cops[}:)][8D][:D] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:33 AM [8D] i belive that you should be able to take pic of trains as long as your not to close to the tracks if you pullover to the side of the road and arenot blocking trafiick your cool but if your going to follow the train & take som pics let some one else drive Reply Edit chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:37 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by THEBREEZE2005NYTX [8D] i belive that you should be able to take pic of trains as long as your not to close to the tracks if you pullover to the side of the road and arenot blocking trafiick your cool but if your going to follow the train & take som pics let some one else drive AMEN !!! especially when chaseing steam.[;)] Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Thursday, December 15, 2005 1:22 PM Okay, so let's agree that their isn't enough information to fully assess what happened. I'm sure that the authorities were acting in good faith for the welfare of the the railroad and their constituents. Mr. Strickland should be commended for his ability to recognize a potentially theatening situation and deal with it in the manner deemed appropriate by his company. But I have some concerns with some of the report: QUOTE: The suspect was questioned and it was then determined that he had been contacted earlier by local law enforcement agencies and that he was from the Boston area. While Boston is quite a distance from Texas, so what? Lots of people are from Boston, about 600,000 in Boston proper. Does this make any difference? QUOTE: After questioning him, agents verified his response with the agency. However, his responses were different from those given when previously contacted by local law enforcements. So they began a search of his vehicle and found several cameras, a scanner, a laptop and other recording equipment. Okay, so he changed his story. I agree that would make me a bit more suspicious. As for the items in the car, I often have these same items in my car everyday. I have a laptop with both an audio recording/editing program for work and photo editing program that will let me edit video. (Laptop and other recording equipment) I usually have a disposable camera in the care to take pics for insurance in case of an accident, and if I knew that I might get to see some trains, I'd probably have my scanner and my trusty old Minolta SLR with me ( several cameras, scanner) QUOTE: He was warned again that his observed behavior was suspicious in nature and he was told to stay away from BNSF property. He was also referred to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Homeland Security in Boston. This is what really gets me. Please tell me where, in this whole story, the perpetrator in question did anything more than change his story to the authorities. So what, he lied? Do you see anyone locking Clinton or Bush up for lies they've told? While I agree it is not the smartest move to change your story to the cops, so far as I can tell that is all he did. No where in this whole story does it say that he was tresspassing or on private property. No where in this story does it say he did anything to threaten the safety of the railroad employees or himself. No where does it say he failed to cooperate with the authorites. All it says is he was acting suspicious. For that he was referred to Homeland Security, and I presume he will be monitored. As Sarah (CSXrules4eva) says : "they can not JUST assume that he is a criminal. " I think that BNSF did what they felt was right, that the authorities did what they felt was right and that perhaps this fellow did what he thought was right. The story, at best, insinuates that there was some illegal, or at least, some questionable activity occuring here, but there is nothing said of pending charges against this person. Perhaps BNSF is not in the habit of divulging this information for their own legal reasons. Regardless, based on the lack of information I find it difficult to know who was in the right and who was in the wrong. There is just not enough information. What concerns me most is that based on the information in the story, I could go to railfanning at Eola Yard, tell a lie and be considered suspicious by Homeland Security. I enjoy railfanning and continue to enjoy it, but I have to admit this story is going to make me really paranoid next time I'm trackside. I wonder if the local authorities would consider that paranoia suspicious? Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 15, 2005 2:08 PM Unfortunately in these situations you have to lawyer up to defend yourself. I myself don't need a 4 figure lawyer fee everytime I have to defend myself (not that I've had to yet). Mabee we need some sort of railfan harrasment insureance and keep a lawyer that specializes in this sort of thing on retainer.[;)] Hey Gabe, hows your current job working out? [(-D] Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:12 PM Still say this guy got himself into trouble, if each time he was questioned , he had simply said, "name is so and so, I'm a railfan on vacation from Boston, just wanted to take some pics, I'm a visitor and unfamiliar with this lines schedules so I use the scanner to know where the train will be so I can be there get a picture of it" simple, be honest, dont act like a jerk, and for goodness sakes dont lie or change your story because you think you have some inherent right to stand on someone elses private property to take pictures. As for the guy who got the award, I'm still at a loss as to why people are upset that he was doing what he was told to do. So he gets a gold star on the fridge, big deal. Any heavy industry should be wary if for nothing else their own liability. After having a train here intentionally derailed by a teenage vandal recently, I'm glad someones keeping an eye out for possible troublemakers. Better safe than a toxic cloud of chlorine pouring thru my backyard.[;)] Have fun with your trains Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:33 PM The Railroad was very safe..........That's until the Railfan showed up. Allan. Reply Edit espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:42 PM We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 16, 2005 5:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Well Rich, I'm not goin anywhere unless you go and cry to the man. Wouldn't hurt my felings if you dropped outta here either. Do ya wanna start a little cyber flame war? Pretty fun to pop off on the computer from the comfort of your home. Try reading who the post is directed to....sure enough....not you. I guess that reading is not a qualification that big wheel broadcast engineers are required to posess.........Your turn. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 16, 2005 5:57 PM And the Flame wars continue! Allan. Reply Edit dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Friday, December 16, 2005 6:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Friday, December 16, 2005 7:06 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Correct...almost. Some states still have specific laws against scanners limiting who, when and where they can be legally used. As the technology changes sodoes the legislation and things are gradually easing off scanner usage. I know this after getting a warning about from an officer in Michigan that it was illegal to operate the scanner in my car. There is a ton of info at the following link, including tables about halfway down the page that list statutes for specific states: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/transportation/radar.htm It is interesting reading and evident that they are most worried about people using scanners to commit crimes. Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:19 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57 QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Correct...almost. Some states still have specific laws against scanners limiting who, when and where they can be legally used. As the technology changes sodoes the legislation and things are gradually easing off scanner usage. I know this after getting a warning about from an officer in Michigan that it was illegal to operate the scanner in my car. There is a ton of info at the following link, including tables about halfway down the page that list statutes for specific states: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/transportation/radar.htm It is interesting reading and evident that they are most worried about people using scanners to commit crimes. Mike If they ban scanners in all states, as ironken prefers, the criminals would still have receivers of some kind if they needed to monitor communications for their purpose. It seems the fact that scanners are illegal during the commission of a bigger crime would not matter to them. So banning scanners just removes another harmless hobby from the innocent people. Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:21 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Well Rich, I'm not goin anywhere unless you go and cry to the man. Wouldn't hurt my felings if you dropped outta here either. Do ya wanna start a little cyber flame war? Pretty fun to pop off on the computer from the comfort of your home. Try reading who the post is directed to....sure enough....not you. I guess that reading is not a qualification that big wheel broadcast engineers are required to posess.........Your turn. Just stating my opinion, what you do with it is up to you. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:42 AM whatever, clown. Reply Edit richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken whatever, clown. My point exactly! Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Saturday, December 17, 2005 7:34 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy If they ban scanners in all states, as ironken prefers, the criminals would still have receivers of some kind if they needed to monitor communications for their purpose. It seems the fact that scanners are illegal during the commission of a bigger crime would not matter to them. So banning scanners just removes another harmless hobby from the innocent people. Exactly. Who's mostly in favor of anti-gun laws? The criminal! Life is much easier for them if they know the citizens cannot protect themselves. The point is, as richardy stated, is that passing laws restricting freedoms only affects law-abiding people, as they are the only ones that will pay any heed to the laws. The criminal (by definition) does not, and cannot, care about laws. Reply eolafan Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Aurora, IL 4,515 posts Posted by eolafan on Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:46 AM Next thing we are likely to see is 50 cal. machine guns mounted on the locomotives and used to shoot railfans and a big sign on the sides of the box cars saying "Welcome to Osama, as long as you don't take pictures or use a scanner". Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:20 AM Kinda says it all! Reply Edit canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:12 PM Oh man, I am going to step in it now, ..but... been biting back and I havebeen reading some of your thoughts, now here is mine. You will either agree or disagree. Either support it, or will hate me. Fine. Some of you guys yack and complain so much about your loss of rights and "the Terrosits won!" You should sit down and take a good look around....... a REALLY good look around and be thankful instead of [banghead]ing. If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. My family lives in this country. If it means keeping safer cause some guy wants to ask me questions...? FIne, mind if I grab a seat, I got nothign to hide. You want to see what life is like when its really bad? Wanna know how scary life could be? Want to know what the one of the most life dangering things you could do? Ride a bus to work in Isreal. Heaven for bid you want to go out and have dinner...... On, Sept 12, 2001how many people were complaining we didnt do enough? . Amazing how so many of you have gone back to thinking its Sept 10th. I am sorry, how many terror attacks have we had since? Exactly. Obivously, something has worked and some poeple are busting their***to keep up the record. If someone asking me some question is my part. Hell yeah ask away, I am an American, how can I help? Anyone remember the little dereailiment of the Amtrak here in Phoenix back in the early 90's? Pretty sure that was a white dude (s). Some poeple in the G Squad havent forgotten that one, like alot havent forgotten what happen to the in LA back in the 30's. Hate to break it to you people, but waching trains is kinda wierd and fairly unknown in this day and age to people who dont know about us. So yeah, you got a bunch eletrical equipment in the car and some bad***photo gear standing by yourself? Guess what, better be prepared to explain your self. Doesnt bother me. In fact, I have made some pretty good RR freinds cause, someone said, "Excuse me, what are you doing?" Oh, cause you think your a middle age white dude thst gives you a get of jail free card cause your not a terrorist? Freakin please...... Anyone on law enforcement knows some guy who is 2 bit terrorist wont stand there, they will pay a white guy to do it. You see trains and Oh My God! An unpatched whatever.... Mr-G man sees you stareing at the most senseitive mode of transprortation and hunderds of cars of chemicals, gasses, and military shippments. You see this country owes you. I see it as I am greatful to be in this country. Done ranting. Sorry if I offend you, I am sorry. Above rant is my opinion. chances are then what you wrote, offended me. Best Regards, John Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply eolafan Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Aurora, IL 4,515 posts Posted by eolafan on Sunday, December 18, 2005 2:38 PM Oh, I agree with you fully...the only thing I would like to suggest is "we" spend more time and resources going after the "kingpins" like Bin Laden and less breaking down little doors of some poor *** in Baghad who somebody "screwed over" just to get a little juice with the man. Just like the cops getting their giggles over arresting a local street peddler of drugs while the drug kingpins are going fee. Kill off the kingpins and the rest will wither and die on the vine for lack of anybody to lead them. This works for just about any criminal or terrorist enterprise or group. Eolafan (a.k.a. Jim) Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Sunday, December 18, 2005 3:25 PM canazar, I happen to agree with most of what you wrote. However, I believe that what we railfans experience is just a tiny bit of what is happening to our country. Yes, this arguably the best country to live in. For now. What bothers me are the trends I see: Loss of an individual's right to protest wherever they want. Erosion of the right to free speech. The near-elimination of our 4th Amendment rights against unlawful (read "just because the cop suspects") searches. Being seen as a "traitor" if you question the actions of the government instead of blindly believing everything they tell us. And a lack of "terror" attacks does not in any way imply that anything the government has done regarding the harrassment of citizens has made the slightest difference; you attribute effect to a cause, even though you merely imply the cause. And I do not think anyone that is operating with their lights on has gone back to thinking it is 9/10. The Patriot Act has seen to that (interesting how those laws were named "Patriot Act"; perhaps that was done so that anyone who questioned any of it could be reduced to a "non-patriot", which to some people feel is just one step away from being labeled a terrorist. And the reason I complain about the loss of rights is BECAUSE I "sat down and took a good look around". Every law that has passed that in some way restricts our freedoms has always been paraded as something we "need" to protect yourselves, either from some external evil empire, or from ourselves. For example: seat belt laws. Who the hell is that supposed to protect? Me? What if I do not like to wear them? What if I am more converned about being hit broadside and having the seatbelt hold me in place as the other car crashes through the driver's door? Should I not be able to choose for myself the level of safety I need? And is it just a coincidence that most states have now passed laws the give the piggies the right to pull you over for not wearing one? Whom am I risking other than myself? A victimless crime if I've ever heard of one. Yet we have these new laws. Are we so afraid of death that we are willing to live an existence that is so much less than what the Lord must have intended for us? For a people that claim to be so religious, we sure seem afraid of meeting the maker. Seems rather contradictory, doesn't it? And I can assure you, that if my wife/mother/father/brother/whatever was killed in the 9/11 attacks, and someone asked me if I would be willing to give up personal liberties for the rest of my life to save them, I would decline the offer. And if a relative of mine would be asked the same thing to save my life, I would be outraged if they agreed. I value freedom and liberty that much! As a famous man once said, and most citizens have forgotten, "Give Me Liberty of Give Me Death". By turning this once-great-and-wonderful country into the United States of Surveilence, it seems to me that the very things we are trying to protect are things we have already lost. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Sunday, December 18, 2005 4:16 PM Mr Z.. Well, I have to respectfully agree with you... Your right on alot of things . In this day in age alot of things have been taken to far. Civil laws, HAO's, imposeing in our descions and choices being made by others because they think they know more about me than I do Who the hell are you to tell me I cant smoke when I want to? I like my guns thank you. No, it is Merry Chrsitmas. I will say the Pledge they way it was ment. I do not fear God . My own quote I like so much..., This is one country that will put the wants of so few, above the needs of so many. But my point of my post was not above the freedoms and point of poiltical debates, and the turn of country in a whole. Yes, it is changeing, but it is a changieng world. Like the Steam, to F, to AC. The world is changeing and the rules have to as well. The bigger, the village, the more idoits you will have. It was about railfanning. In general and if you read some of the posts, some strong, some weak, but the scent of "our world is coing to an end and we are goign to go to jail cause we a got scanner" is there, and that just rubbed me the wrong way. It is is the way it is, perosnally, I do not think it is that bad as everyone says. For me and my son, it has been great. Just wish some folks would keep it real and quit haveing the attitude they are above others. Best Regards John k Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Sunday, December 18, 2005 5:29 PM canazar: Agreed. Thanks, John. Jim Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Monday, December 19, 2005 1:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? You completely missed the point. Not sure if you misunderstood my post or were too busy trying to scare me to fully understand what I was saying. If Big Brother or the G-man wants to check on me, or check me out.... Fine. I have nothing to hide. Nothing. I got a good family, my gun is legal, I own a nice business, I pay taxes, my front yard is raked and I like football and the dog even has his tag. I take comfort in the fact the Goverment is looking for the bad guys. Because they missed the last time in Sept. Also didnt see some white guy named Tim coming either. I am sure you know who he was. Hey, I know it is a different world than it used to be. Thats a fact of life. I am perferctly willing to lose "just a little of my freedom or time of my day" to keep it all from some joker who wants to blow it all up. Or, what good is it to have all your freedom you want and privacy if the family you loved is dead. Hey, strong and cold I know, but thats the bottom line. Real world example of what I mean. 2 months ago I went on a rail fanning trip along the BNSF Trans-Con around Flagstaff Arizona. I had pulled over off the I-40 on neighborhood rooad exit and walked up over a bridge that was over the railroad tracks. Small two-lane brige. Granted, I probably should not have been up there, no side walks and all but it was only 30 mph and traffic was very light. A train was coming and well, it was just too good of a spot to watch just one. Well, wouldnt you know it, I was done, walking back down a Department of Public Safefty Officer pulled by. (Kind alike a State Trooper to some of you, or maybe Highway Patrolman) And slowed and asked if I was OK... "Oh yeah, I am sorry, was just upwathcing trains. I am parked down there" and pointed to my truck. "Oh, Ok" he said and pulled on away, but to my surpruse, he pulled up behind my truck that was parked just off the road in the dirt. Gues it was slow day and he was bored. So, he gets out of the car just as I walk up. he had enough time before I got there to run my plate and call it in I am sure. "So, what brings you out here again?" Now, this is where the "attitude" comes into play. Sure, didnt have much right to do anything. I could have said **** off and given him greif. In which case, he would for sure sweated me, wasted his time trackign me down, wanting to know why I was playing hard to get. He would have wasted energy and time on me that could have used, to get someone who was breaking the law or who was up to no good. At the minimum, the next guy he saw wathcing trains was going to get a bad, bad day. But nope, I went all out to be nice guy. Thanks for doing your job. I coulda been a bad guy. Told why I was there, explained I was camping and over night road trip, hunting trains, what cat I say?. He asked for I.D., asked all the questions. Asked what was in the truck, "ya know got any weapons or drugs?". I said, "well since you mentioned it, I do have a hand gun in there", told him it was mine, legal, good to go, be more than happy to show it to you, in the red back pack. Looked in the back of the truck through the window and after a few said, "no, that's ok." He asked me some of the same questions again, to see if I was lieing. Nope told him the same responses agiain. Why not, its the truth. So after about 15 minutes of this, it turned to pleasent how's the weather chat. But then, I heard the horn and enough time had gone by, another one was coming... "Hey, go catch that one" pointing to my video camarea, "I got to go anyways" Have a nice day he said and on he went. I waved bye as I ran back up the bridge. And thats it. Im off the[soapbox] Best Regards John K Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Monday, December 19, 2005 8:52 AM I did not miss your point and I was not trying to scare you. I was presenting an example of the extemes that sometimes government will invoke predicated on our protection. I am all for the government protecting us but I'm not that confident, at least at the local level, they have the common sense to accompli***he task. In OK the Highway Patrol have a ten contacts (not tickets) per eight hour shift quota. Wonder if AZ has something similar and you became a contact in his report? Reply dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Monday, December 19, 2005 9:14 AM There is a delicate balance between defending, from a military point of view, or protecting from a LE POV, and not restricting freedoms. To answer the cries of something has to be done, the pendulum of action swings one direction. It may not always be the right course of action and will find criticism. The pendulum swings back the other way to the cry of civil liberty. The demands of complete protection and complete freedom, at no cost and without creating any hardship on anyone are making the social contract very difficult to maintain. Dan Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Monday, December 19, 2005 8:30 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar Real world example of what I mean. 2 months ago I went on a rail fanning trip along the BNSF Trans-Con around Flagstaff Arizona. I had pulled over off the I-40 on neighborhood rooad exit and walked up over a bridge that was over the railroad tracks. Small two-lane brige. Granted, I probably should not have been up there, no side walks and all but it was only 30 mph and traffic was very light. A train was coming and well, it was just too good of a spot to watch just one. Well, wouldnt you know it, I was done, walking back down a Department of Public Safefty Officer pulled by. (Kind alike a State Trooper to some of you, or maybe Highway Patrolman) And slowed and asked if I was OK... "Oh yeah, I am sorry, was just upwathcing trains. I am parked down there" and pointed to my truck. "Oh, Ok" he said and pulled on away, but to my surpruse, he pulled up behind my truck that was parked just off the road in the dirt. Gues it was slow day and he was bored. So, he gets out of the car just as I walk up. he had enough time before I got there to run my plate and call it in I am sure. "So, what brings you out here again?" Told why I was there, explained I was camping and over night road trip, hunting trains, what cat I say?. He asked for I.D., asked all the questions. Asked what was in the truck, "ya know got any weapons or drugs?". I said, "well since you mentioned it, I do have a hand gun in there", told him it was mine, legal, good to go, be more than happy to show it to you, in the red back pack. Looked in the back of the truck through the window and after a few said, "no, that's ok." He asked me some of the same questions again, to see if I was lieing. Nope told him the same responses agiain. Why not, its the truth. So after about 15 minutes of this, it turned to pleasent how's the weather chat. But then, I heard the horn and enough time had gone by, another one was coming... "Hey, go catch that one" pointing to my video camarea, "I got to go anyways" Have a nice day he said and on he went. I waved bye as I ran back up the bridge. And thats it. Im off the[soapbox] Best Regards John K And you do not feel that was over the bounds of the Fourth Amendment? Then I do not know if anything I could say will get you to reconsider. After you told him what you were doing, and he said ok, that should have been the end of it. RIGHT THEN AND THERE. You gave him no reason for him to ask you those other questions, and especially no reason for him to want to search your vehicle. NO REASON WHATSOEVER. Unless you actually believe that what he was doing in any way enhanced the security of our country. Don't get me wrong. If terrorists were actually responsible for the 9/11, then this country must do what it can to prevent this from happening again. But this can be done without turning the US into something resembling a totalitarian police state. And as long as most people seem willing to give up some of their rights for the illusion of safety, this situation will continue. Where does it end? How far are you willing to let the authorities go to enhance your "safety". How about random house searches? Government monitoring of the internet? Sound absurd? We already must allow the cops to search your vehicle for "reasonable suspicion". And what exactly is "reasonable suspicion"? Long hair? No hair? Being a minority? Being white? Standing on public property just watching trains? Do I sound paranoid? You bet!! And for good reason. BTW, canazar: I am not directing this specifically at you, even though I used your story as a catalyst for my rantings. I mean no disrespect. Reply canazar Member sinceAugust 2004 From: Phoenix, Arizona 1,989 posts Posted by canazar on Monday, December 19, 2005 9:19 PM None taken what so ever. This is good debate. Well, I can see this issue from both sides. It wasnt that long ago I used to volunteer with the Sheriffs Office. I have been in that same postion enough times to know what he was thinking. You take any chance you can get to find the bad guy. Granted I havent done alot of stops, my a couple dozen, compared to others who do it for a living. You would be shocked how often people who are breaking the law, and yo woudl never expect it. Good example of this? We working a large detail in part ofPhoenix when we saw a car over in a dark parkign lot. We pulled up to see what was the matter. We pull up and nice younger (middle 20's) lady in the car. I walked up and just to say hi and make sure she was ok. We were thining maybe car trouble or something. She was very nice indeed, never had any reason to wonder. She said she just pulled over to check directions on her map and didnt want to be in the street. Oh, good on you then Mam, have nice eveing. As my partner turned, to walk away, he caught a glimpse of a bottle shoved down in between the seats. Long story short. She was legally drunk, was arrested for DUI and her 3 year old daughter was taken out of the back seat and given to the father who had to come pick her up. We never knew she was drunk. Didnt smell it, didnt think about it. Never even looked for it. But there she was, a woman driving around drunk with a little girl in the back seat. Now granted, my deal was kinda of a stretch. But same rules aplly. looking back what happend to me? Nothing. I spent a few extra minutes of mine time and spent more shootin the breeze with a cool dude. And I got to see another train out of it. I can see how you will see it as overbearing. I just see it differently since I have been on the other side of the coin. Its tough. People yell you for harrasing them. Then they yell at you cause you dint see the bad guy steal your stero. . He was just doing his job keeping all types of baddies off the street. To each his own I suupose. Par tof life. That why we have regular, and light beer[:)] Best Regards, Big John Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway Reply domefoamer Member sinceSeptember 2003 51 posts Posted by domefoamer on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 12:36 AM How many photos of a train do you need to figure out how to place a bomb, twist a rail or otherwise disrupt its progress? All these secrets have been caught on film, from "The General" through countless Western movies. And how many photos do you need to figure out a train's schedules and vulnerabilities? None. How many blurry photos of trains can you make surreptitiously, from a cell phone camera or a passing car? As many as you want. So why would a serious terrorist plant himself in official view, wasting his time and maximizing his visibility? He wouldn't, except as a diversion from some actual attack. All this harassment of rail photographers amounts to is operational practice and CYA measures for the security squads. Reply domefoamer Member sinceSeptember 2003 51 posts Posted by domefoamer on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 12:45 AM Wait, I get it now. They're on the lookout for the fearsome photographer known as Anz El Adumz. Recognizable by the black prayer shroud he wears on his head as he pivots his large-format camera east, towards Mecca... Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:08 PM (Warning: May be considered off-topic by some)[}:)] Canazar, Zardoz, Eolafan, dharmon among others- I just wanted to say that even though there are some here who'd be upset because this thread is only vaguely discussing trains I'm glad to be able to talk with you guys about this kind of thing. It is good to know that regardless of what side of the political fence each of sits on (of course some of us probably straddle it too[:D]) that we can discuss our views and not simply throw a fit if someone disagrees with our opinions and beliefs. I do hope you guys didn't misconstrue my posting about the scanners, I don't see any harm in them myself, I was just trying to illustrate that sometimes we, as a society, can be commiting minor infractions of the law without even knowing it. I didn't ever think that operating my scanner while in the car would be an issue, but had the Michigan Highway patrolman decided to make it one, be it of his own accord or from my giving him reasonable suspicion, he could have made it an issue. Thankfully we both decided to be cool about it and let it go. He gave me a warning (very nicely as well) and I simply turned the scanner off. We both understood that since I was from out of state I probably didn't know better and that was it. I hate using ignorance as an excuse, but in this case it was no big deal, kinda a "no harm, no foul" situation. Please understand that I am in no way claiming that by having to turn off my scanner equals the end of civilized society nor does it equate with the loss of my civil liberties. As I said, I was simply referring to the situation to call attention to other situations that might occur. (Warning: Next section may be considered me on my soap box)[soapbox] I understand that the folowing is not what you were arguing John (canazar) but I personally think there is merit in discussing it further. It is the right of anyone reading this to agree or disagree with my statements. All I ask is you do so in a respectful manner. I'm relatively a young buck at the age of 27(well, I will be in like 2 weeks)and those of you who have chatted with me before know I'm not shy about giving my opinion. I tend to see thing from a similar standpoint as Zardoz. I see an erosion of not only our civli liberties, but the rights granted to us by our country's constitution. I don't mind playing by the rules, but why should I be expected to if the elected officials (politicians to sheriffs to judges) of this country don't have to play by a simlar set of rules. You can call me a bleeding-heart liberal or whatever you like but that doesn't change the fact that when the President of the United States (for the record, I'd feel this way no matter the last name of the President) goes on the air "live" and says he can order surveilance and bypass court orders because he is the Commander-in-Chief it makes me squirm a bit. I'm concerned because as he is the President of the United States, one of the most important leaders in the world and in a extremely high profile position of power, I feel he should want to go through the proper channels so as it would appear to those not as familiar with our country that he isn't attempting to abuse his powers. This country was founded with checks and balances in mind and, in my opinion, this is a situation it is easy to see why. I won't even go into detail regarding my thoughts on the secret intercepting of terror suspects. I'm not so naive to believe that things like this haven't happened before. I'm quite sure that they have. But times indeed are changing. Technology is making information on anything and everything more and more readily available and like it or not we have to accept the truth of it. Our techniques and plans need to change too. We need to understand that in order to make allies we need to treat them in the manner that they actually want to be treated, not how we think they want to be treated. Most importantly we have to be aware that while 9/11 showed how resilient and unified we can be as a nation, it also showed that even the great United States are vulnerable. As Dan said earlier, security is a fine line. I do understand this. But its also a two-way street if we are truly a country founded on freedom from oppression. Those out there enforcing do need to have some weight to throw around in order to keep this country secure. But they also need to be aware so that they aren't crossing the line abusing that very same power. Thanks for some great debate guys and thanks for letting me put in my [2c] Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply wadegexe Member sinceNovember 2002 From: US 5 posts Posted by wadegexe on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:29 PM The stretch of BNSF mainline east of Everett Wa to Snohomish is a good place to combine two hobbies, bicycling the county road and railfanning. Many good photos of crews and trains come from there, some of them of the crew snapping a shot of me! Only time I ever had a problem with anyone was when I caught a person in a plain sedan pointing his radar gun at a westbound stack train entering Lowell yard outside Everett. He got awfully upset at me and threatened to call the police if I didn't stop. Seeing as he was parked on a city street, I just smiled and pedalled on. Remember, it's just a hobby. Reply route_rock Member sinceJune 2004 From: Over yonder by the roundhouse 1,224 posts Posted by route_rock on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:17 PM Ok here it is in a nut shell folks. 1 Government monitoring of the internet? Already goes on. Your ina public forum NSA can come in and read what you write. So what about e-mails? I can go to your server and track your e-mail and even read it if so inclined. Encrypt it you say? No Such Agency again my friends! 2. Who did the pres say he authorized those so called eavesdropping tapes to be done on?AAnyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out to them.Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Canada listens to us we listen to them. We share info thats the way it is. Matter of fact just by mentioning NSA I bet some crazy program picks it up and they scrutinize me . Whatever like posted before nothing to hide. Point is I dont see Gestapo officers kicking your doors down, I dont see people shot in the streets or being oppressed or loss of civil liberties. You have fallen for hte hype my friends. i will go with Rons best line " Trust but verify" Here it is, the people clamoring about this knew about it for over a year!!! They are mad the elections in Iraq went well so lets start a full scale flame of the pres claiming how hes doing somehting illegal to americans! As bad as Kerry lying about our troops and that Murtha moron saying the army is a shambles! 30 years my butt he was a reservist over 3/4 of that period.Anything for a sound byte I swear. K off the soap box now . BTW I see a railfan out on my stretch of BNSF I wont call the cops, I may take your pic as a joke ;) But I am not that anal about getting a reward . Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 8:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Point is I dont see Gestapo officers kicking your doors down, I dont see people shot in the streets or being oppressed or loss of civil liberties. You have fallen for hte hype my friends. Here it is, the people clamoring about this knew about it for over a year!!! They are mad the elections in Iraq went well so lets start a full scale flame of the pres claiming how hes doing somehting illegal to americans! As bad as Kerry lying about our troops and that Murtha moron saying the army is a shambles! 30 years my butt he was a reservist over 3/4 of that period.Anything for a sound byte I swear. K off the soap box now . BTW I see a railfan out on my stretch of BNSF I wont call the cops, I may take your pic as a joke ;) But I am not that anal about getting a reward . Lets see, where do I start? Actually, it IS illegal in the US to modify a scanner to receive cell phone transmssions. Some of the older scanners (made before cell phones came on line) could pick up in the 800mhz band, but any scanner built within about 10 years is designed to bypass those frequencies. I see no problem there: a phone call should be private. As far as your gestapo comment, and also about being shot in the stgreets. Rather an extreme example, don't you think? But if it ever comes to that, historians will point to this time as when it all began. You do not see anyone oppressed or denied civil liberties?????????? Perhaps your age has something to do with that. You have spent most of your adult life living under these conditions, so it is unlikely you would notice it. That's one of the things that concerns me. Young people growing up these days have no idea of what liberties people in the US once had. So they have no reason to be upset. As long as they can download their favorite pop hits, and play their video games, all is right with the world. The only hype I see is the propaganda purveyed by the fox "news" channel. And what was all that about the president, and starting a flame war? You are the one trying to incite. Please do not turn this into a partisan argument. Kerry, Bush, whatever. The House and Senate are far more responsible for policy than the figurehead of the president. They're all puppets. I just wonder who is pulling their strings. And yes, I know about how the government can already monitor emails with the Eschelon computers. After all, DARPA was the agency most responsible for developing the internet in the first place. And most of the 13 servers that run the internet are located in the US. My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. Reply techguy57 Member sinceAugust 2003 From: NW Chicago 591 posts Posted by techguy57 on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:00 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock Who did the pres say he authorized those so called eavesdropping tapes to be done on?AAnyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out to them.Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Canada listens to us we listen to them. We share info thats the way it is. Route Rock- I'm not questioning the legality of the wire taps and eavesdropping. The issues I take are two-fold: 1)- As you said, "Anyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out" being monitored as a terrorist threat, in my opinion, is extreme. That's not to say I don't understand the rationale behind it, I just don't agree with it. Our country was founded on freedom and our legal system founded on the idea that we are innocent until proven guilty. In this case it seems we aren't practicing what we preach. We are considering any one in this category guilty until they prove otherwise and even then we are still holding them under suspicion. Again I do understand the President's and even our government's motives however I don't think we are acting as a perfect example to the fledgling democratic Iraq we are supposed to be mentoring. 2)-I repeat my statement that I would feel uncomfortable with the President of the United States claiming it was okay for him to order surveilance and bypass the noraml process of having a judge provide a court order regardless if the President's last name was Bush, Clinton, Roosevelt, Lincoln or Washington. It may be a small issue and it may be that is there is plenty of precedent by those who have occupied the office prior to our current President, it still makes me nervous that a President would insinuate, no matter how petty the subject matter, that being Commander-in-Chief can supplant legal safeguards. Again, I don't think it sets a good example of democracy, especially in countries already looking at us with a critical eye. It's bad form. Finally, thanks for realizing that all of us nutjobs who like trains aren't a threat[:)] What can we say other than it's an odd hobby but a fun one. Next time I'm down in your neck of the woods I'll be sure to wave. [:D] Mike techguy "Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you suck forever." - Anonymous Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:40 AM Very very funny reading all this about listening to telephone broadcast signals and whether its legal or not... Anyone here remember the first generation of cordless phones back in the late 70's and early 80's? like the retro one Sarah Jessica Parker has in her apt in the early episodes of Sex and the City? The big one with the big ol antenna on it? yes, that one, Well a friend (back in the day) told me that early analog phones like those used RADIO waves to transmit and that if you knew where to tune on your home stereo you could actually here them talking! I didnt believe it till he showed me how he could tune into his neighbors (who had one) phone by him calling him up and me listening in another room! Perfectly legal! Anything you can receive over an open frequency is perfectly legal to listen to, like CB's or shortwave HAMM radio. Remember those? Ah those were the days! Radio Shack still sold radio kits, Computers were still the realm of thick lensed geeks (and a 186 processor was cutting edge!), new cars still had carburators, Pac-Man was cutting edge game technology, and no one had ever heard of the Internet save a few professors and researchers. [:D] Have fun with your trains Reply StillGrande Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Alexandria, VA 847 posts Posted by StillGrande on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Wow! going to the bathroom is a felony in Oklahoma! No wonder the people there are so angry! [:D] Dewey "Facts are meaningless; you can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true! Facts, schmacks!" - Homer Simpson "The problem is there are so many stupid people and nothing eats them." Reply richardy Member sinceDecember 2001 From: NE Oklahoma 287 posts Posted by richardy on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:58 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by StillGrande QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Wow! going to the bathroom is a felony in Oklahoma! No wonder the people there are so angry! [:D] If you are not in a designated restroom, yeppers. Reply BigJim Member sinceApril 2001 From: Roanoke, VA 2,020 posts Posted by BigJim on Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:26 AM QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] That's pretty good. I will admit that I do have to tune into the ol' ding dong just to hear what to look out for next[alien][alien][alien] On a more serious note; As a railroader, for the most part, I have had no problems with railfans. Many of them, I either know or am familiar with and they are well behaved and pose no danger to themselves or the RR. I do have one nagging problem though that kind of sits in the far corners of my semi-conscious mind. These guys with scanners and computers and being able to hear and see everything the dispatcher does. Well, it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Sure, it is a great tool for the honest railfan. In one way I'm glad for them. I know very well how boring it can be waiting on a train. HOWEVER, with technology making such rapid advancements, how long will it be before someone figures out how to start throwing switches and changing signals? Hopefully at least not until after I retire! Any other T&E's out there have a thought on this? . Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:10 AM What differance does it make weather someone up to no good has a scanner or not? Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:15 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas What differance does it make weather someone up to no good has a scanner or not? Chad Chad Chad....If you DIDNT want to ride the Runaway Train... ...you shouldnt have gotten on at the last station![;)][:o)][:p] [:D] Have fun with your trains Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:36 AM Hmm, A runnaway train that makes station stops? Only if I can stand on the cab of a old Geep doing 50+ in a sub zero snow storm, and headed for boarded up tunnel at the end of the line.[;)] Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:13 PM Well every runaway train has made at least one start or last stop before the brake hoses snapped! [(-D] Have fun with your trains Reply AC6000CW Member sinceMay 2004 From: MILE POST k741.11 IN FLORIDA 216 posts Posted by AC6000CW on Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:31 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474 That right there is the primary reason I don't railfan anymore. I used to enjoy packing some snacks, a camera, and sodas and taking my son railfanning. It just isn't safe to do anymore. hey are you a engine operator ? http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5025 Reply route_rock Member sinceJune 2004 From: Over yonder by the roundhouse 1,224 posts Posted by route_rock on Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:01 PM Sighs Last I knew I still could go out and do what I wanted. No one tells me not to do anything except my wife. Another nutshell on 9/11 and 9/12 all I heard was who did this who did this? Then we get the well we dont know line. Intelligence services cut to the bare bones, people claiming if only we had good intel. We did have it we knew it was coming the previous admin jsut had its head up its own tu***oo far to see it coming. WTC 1993 look it up folks. Innocent until proven guilty ok. If you knew Mohamed Atta was going to fly into WTC 1 that morning would you have arrested him?COuld you have without ***able evidence?Nope He would have walked on that plane and done what he set out to do.Innocent till proven guilty ina court of law. If I get some info that can be proven then by god I am all for going after them arresting them adn putting them before ajury of their peers ( actually cant be done here as no one I know here wants to do suicide runs in the USA) Incite a flame war? Me? Sure I will! I am sick of hearing I support my troops but not the war. I was called a baby killer in Desert Storm by some wet bhind the ears daughter of a hippie. You cant support the troops and say I dont support what they are doing. I for one really dont see any personal freedoms lost over the years. Some of the rants about historians will look back and say it happened here well my friend all I can say is Prohibition. McCarthy. Seggregation for Japanese Americans. 1863 draft riot. Dont tell me we are losing freedoms when we are not. Lincoln banned rights to free press by burning out the compition. Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:56 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] That's pretty good. I will admit that I do have to tune into the ol' ding dong just to hear what to look out for next[alien][alien][alien] On a more serious note; As a railroader, for the most part, I have had no problems with railfans. Many of them, I either know or am familiar with and they are well behaved and pose no danger to themselves or the RR. I do have one nagging problem though that kind of sits in the far corners of my semi-conscious mind. These guys with scanners and computers and being able to hear and see everything the dispatcher does. Well, it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Sure, it is a great tool for the honest railfan. In one way I'm glad for them. I know very well how boring it can be waiting on a train. HOWEVER, with technology making such rapid advancements, how long will it be before someone figures out how to start throwing switches and changing signals? Hopefully at least not until after I retire! Any other T&E's out there have a thought on this? That's all that I was trying to say before everybody got all butt-hurt. Reply Edit dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan. Last time I checked, it took your vote to get them in office.........and your vote can get them out..... ...unless of course you took civics class as seriously as grammar..... Dan Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed.
Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken [ As far as these tracking programs that some of you have....they should be banned. Scanners should be banned as well. Our conversations and operations have no concern to you. It is kinda creepy when I have seen guys post ETD freqs. What kinda geek cares about the ETD freqs?
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar "This is a free exchange of ideas and knowledge. I do not read this forum to be called stupid. I take offense to you calling me stupid or my ideas stupid." Read the first sentence of your first post again. You came off agressively and got treated with agression. Nobody said that you were stupid. I said that statement was stupid and I maintain that. Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion.
QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic
QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans.
QUOTE: Originally posted by tregurtha It's a fine line these days. I've found that if you're respectful of railroad property and respectful of law enforcement and are honest about simply being a railfan you don't have much of a problem. After the London subway bombings earlier this year, I was approached by the CN police at the diamond in Durand, Michigan. Usually not a copy there but it may have had something to do with the bombings. A lot of folks gather at the restored station there, but I happened to be the only person there that day. The cop asked what I was doing (I had a scanner and camera). I was honest, I said I was a railfan, I said I was respectful of railroad property and always stayed safe, and he's was cool with that. It seems to be a few bad eggs that cause the problems. Ross R.
QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas QUOTE: Originally posted by the feed by the way one of the top pics of the day on railpics is a BNSF engineer taking picture back from the railfan taking a pic There is a whole thread on So Cal Railfan.net on "when railfans get fanned" with crews taking pictures of railfans. Now thats funny., I dont care who you are...[:D]
QUOTE: Originally posted by THEBREEZE2005NYTX [8D] i belive that you should be able to take pic of trains as long as your not to close to the tracks if you pullover to the side of the road and arenot blocking trafiick your cool but if your going to follow the train & take som pics let some one else drive
QUOTE: The suspect was questioned and it was then determined that he had been contacted earlier by local law enforcement agencies and that he was from the Boston area.
QUOTE: After questioning him, agents verified his response with the agency. However, his responses were different from those given when previously contacted by local law enforcements. So they began a search of his vehicle and found several cameras, a scanner, a laptop and other recording equipment.
QUOTE: He was warned again that his observed behavior was suspicious in nature and he was told to stay away from BNSF property. He was also referred to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Homeland Security in Boston.
QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters.
QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed.
QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan
QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57 QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken by ChrisBar Chad, You make a good point on the scanner thing if you are a bit time railfan and want to have a heads up for a shot. The thought behind the scanner thing is purely because I thought it was a little creepy. As far as the train tracking set-up that is out there. I still think that software and system is borderline hacking into the RR's signal system, just my opinion. Isn't there a law stateing that anyone who is caught doing this will go to Prison? Allan. Allen, if you mean the scanner thing, that would probably come under an old FCC regulation stating that anything broadcast into the public airways is public domain and anyone can receive and listen to or watch it. Haven't heard that this was ever changed. Tom is correct. If you broadcast it in the airwaves it is fair game to listen. If you tamper with the signal ie MIJI (Meacon, intrusion, jam or interference) then you are commiting a crime. The best defense is encryption. As far as trying to break encryption....I would suppose it would come down to who's you are trying to break and for what purpose. Dan Correct...almost. Some states still have specific laws against scanners limiting who, when and where they can be legally used. As the technology changes sodoes the legislation and things are gradually easing off scanner usage. I know this after getting a warning about from an officer in Michigan that it was illegal to operate the scanner in my car. There is a ton of info at the following link, including tables about halfway down the page that list statutes for specific states: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/transportation/radar.htm It is interesting reading and evident that they are most worried about people using scanners to commit crimes. Mike
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken No problem with railfans. Big problem with stupid statements. Very plainly put in my responses. Are you suggesting that I leave the forum? I have been around here a heck of alot longer than you. Be OK with me if you left and I have been here longer than you if that matters. Well Rich, I'm not goin anywhere unless you go and cry to the man. Wouldn't hurt my felings if you dropped outta here either. Do ya wanna start a little cyber flame war? Pretty fun to pop off on the computer from the comfort of your home. Try reading who the post is directed to....sure enough....not you. I guess that reading is not a qualification that big wheel broadcast engineers are required to posess.........Your turn.
QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken whatever, clown.
QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy If they ban scanners in all states, as ironken prefers, the criminals would still have receivers of some kind if they needed to monitor communications for their purpose. It seems the fact that scanners are illegal during the commission of a bigger crime would not matter to them. So banning scanners just removes another harmless hobby from the innocent people.
QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind.
QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder?
QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar Real world example of what I mean. 2 months ago I went on a rail fanning trip along the BNSF Trans-Con around Flagstaff Arizona. I had pulled over off the I-40 on neighborhood rooad exit and walked up over a bridge that was over the railroad tracks. Small two-lane brige. Granted, I probably should not have been up there, no side walks and all but it was only 30 mph and traffic was very light. A train was coming and well, it was just too good of a spot to watch just one. Well, wouldnt you know it, I was done, walking back down a Department of Public Safefty Officer pulled by. (Kind alike a State Trooper to some of you, or maybe Highway Patrolman) And slowed and asked if I was OK... "Oh yeah, I am sorry, was just upwathcing trains. I am parked down there" and pointed to my truck. "Oh, Ok" he said and pulled on away, but to my surpruse, he pulled up behind my truck that was parked just off the road in the dirt. Gues it was slow day and he was bored. So, he gets out of the car just as I walk up. he had enough time before I got there to run my plate and call it in I am sure. "So, what brings you out here again?" Told why I was there, explained I was camping and over night road trip, hunting trains, what cat I say?. He asked for I.D., asked all the questions. Asked what was in the truck, "ya know got any weapons or drugs?". I said, "well since you mentioned it, I do have a hand gun in there", told him it was mine, legal, good to go, be more than happy to show it to you, in the red back pack. Looked in the back of the truck through the window and after a few said, "no, that's ok." He asked me some of the same questions again, to see if I was lieing. Nope told him the same responses agiain. Why not, its the truth. So after about 15 minutes of this, it turned to pleasent how's the weather chat. But then, I heard the horn and enough time had gone by, another one was coming... "Hey, go catch that one" pointing to my video camarea, "I got to go anyways" Have a nice day he said and on he went. I waved bye as I ran back up the bridge. And thats it. Im off the[soapbox] Best Regards John K
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Point is I dont see Gestapo officers kicking your doors down, I dont see people shot in the streets or being oppressed or loss of civil liberties. You have fallen for hte hype my friends. Here it is, the people clamoring about this knew about it for over a year!!! They are mad the elections in Iraq went well so lets start a full scale flame of the pres claiming how hes doing somehting illegal to americans! As bad as Kerry lying about our troops and that Murtha moron saying the army is a shambles! 30 years my butt he was a reservist over 3/4 of that period.Anything for a sound byte I swear. K off the soap box now . BTW I see a railfan out on my stretch of BNSF I wont call the cops, I may take your pic as a joke ;) But I am not that anal about getting a reward .
QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock Who did the pres say he authorized those so called eavesdropping tapes to be done on?AAnyone calling in from a known terrorist hotbed and any one calling out to them.Its LEGAL FOLKS! You are transmitting radio waves on a cell phone or a sat phone and I can hear them too if I want to with my scanner. Nothing in the Constitution about listening in to cell phone calls picked up by a sattelitte over the said areas. Canada listens to us we listen to them. We share info thats the way it is.
QUOTE: Originally posted by StillGrande QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy QUOTE: Originally posted by canazar [ If Big Brother wants to look over my shoulder and watch me pee.... Fine, I dont care... I am proud how it swings in the wind. In Oklahoma that is a felony, it will get you arrested, fined and posted, including picture, on the registered sex offenders website for ten years with yearly photo update required. Oh, they don't post on the website what you were charged with so it looks like you are a real sex offender. Still want Big Brother looking over your shoulder? Wow! going to the bathroom is a felony in Oklahoma! No wonder the people there are so angry! [:D]
QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien]
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QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas What differance does it make weather someone up to no good has a scanner or not?
QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474 That right there is the primary reason I don't railfan anymore. I used to enjoy packing some snacks, a camera, and sodas and taking my son railfanning. It just isn't safe to do anymore.
QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] That's pretty good. I will admit that I do have to tune into the ol' ding dong just to hear what to look out for next[alien][alien][alien] On a more serious note; As a railroader, for the most part, I have had no problems with railfans. Many of them, I either know or am familiar with and they are well behaved and pose no danger to themselves or the RR. I do have one nagging problem though that kind of sits in the far corners of my semi-conscious mind. These guys with scanners and computers and being able to hear and see everything the dispatcher does. Well, it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Sure, it is a great tool for the honest railfan. In one way I'm glad for them. I know very well how boring it can be waiting on a train. HOWEVER, with technology making such rapid advancements, how long will it be before someone figures out how to start throwing switches and changing signals? Hopefully at least not until after I retire! Any other T&E's out there have a thought on this? That's all that I was trying to say before everybody got all butt-hurt. Reply Edit dharmon Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Bottom Left Corner, USA 3,420 posts Posted by dharmon on Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan. Last time I checked, it took your vote to get them in office.........and your vote can get them out..... ...unless of course you took civics class as seriously as grammar..... Dan Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way.
QUOTE: Originally posted by BigJim QUOTE: We'd better watch out for those railfans. Everybody knows they're crazy and no one knows what they're liable to do. The Art Bell Conspiricy Squad.[alien] That's pretty good. I will admit that I do have to tune into the ol' ding dong just to hear what to look out for next[alien][alien][alien] On a more serious note; As a railroader, for the most part, I have had no problems with railfans. Many of them, I either know or am familiar with and they are well behaved and pose no danger to themselves or the RR. I do have one nagging problem though that kind of sits in the far corners of my semi-conscious mind. These guys with scanners and computers and being able to hear and see everything the dispatcher does. Well, it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Sure, it is a great tool for the honest railfan. In one way I'm glad for them. I know very well how boring it can be waiting on a train. HOWEVER, with technology making such rapid advancements, how long will it be before someone figures out how to start throwing switches and changing signals? Hopefully at least not until after I retire! Any other T&E's out there have a thought on this?
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFrailfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan. Last time I checked, it took your vote to get them in office.........and your vote can get them out..... ...unless of course you took civics class as seriously as grammar..... Dan Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by route_rock My point is that if "We The People" do not stop this government abuse of power soon, eventually we will not be ale to stop it at all. Eventually there will be a law prohibiting you from doing something you like to do. THEN you will cry, and wonder how it could have got that way. You know WHY the American peoples words ARN"T heard? Because of our so-called Government won't lesten. People are too afraid to stand up and speak their mind. That is the problem with this D*MN country. If you don't like what you see in front of then speak up. Allan.
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