GM closing nine plants

[richardy]

I had one GM car, the paint started peeling off after six months. They painted it and it peeled off again, they painted it two more times then told me there was nothing they could do. I had owned Fords before and have owned nothing but Fords since.

On another note GM is offering, again, 0% for 60 months on Chevrolets, have not heard if that is extended to other GM lines.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

If I'm not mistaken, G.M stocks are near junk status on one of the exchanges.

It's bonds that are "Junk Status", not stocks. Bonds!

GM unfortunately now is in the same situation the railroads were 25 years ago.

It's got to shed capacity to keep up with its loss of market share. It ain't pretty. It's do that or die.

There is/was no way in The Devil's Kingdom that GM was going to keep its market share - they sure would have if they could have. I'm just glad Janesville didn't get the ax.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Gee Vic, now I guess we're going to have to shoot you.[swg]

Being a Blue-backer it kinda gives the old axiom "better dead than Red" a whole new twist doesn't it[;)][:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eastside

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Yep, I do. We have a Color LaserJet office printer. It is a lemon, it works about half the time. HP used to be a very innovative company but one of the CEOs (can't quite remember the name) ruined their reputation, for me at least.

Do you mean Carleton S. Fiorina, better known as Carly Fiorina? She was the chief architect of the misconceived merger with Compaq, among other things, which eventually led to her downfall.

That sounds right.

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Yep, I do. We have a Color LaserJet office printer. It is a lemon, it works about half the time. HP used to be a very innovative company but one of the CEOs (can't quite remember the name) ruined their reputation, for me at least.

Do you mean Carleton S. Fiorina, better known as Carly Fiorina? She was the chief architect of the misconceived merger with Compaq, among other things, which eventually led to her downfall.

[Anonymous]

Big Boy, you have gotta post pics of guns and stupid tough guy quotes before you shoot him...........

[Big_Boy_4005]

Gee Vic, now I guess we're going to have to shoot you.[swg]

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

There are 2.3 retirees drawing benefits for every 1 GM worker. That should tell you something.

That would also tell you that GM's plans for massive layoffs isn't going to change that 2.3 to 1 ratio. GM is not tackling the legacy problem, instead it seems they're just trying to placate Wall Street in the interim.

Maybe they think the feds will bail out the legacy liabilities.

Holy [censored] ! the Sky is Falling! I'm Agreeing with FM also![;)]

I'll bet you $5 thats exactly what they and a couple of airlines are planning to do, probably soon too.

[Junctionfan]

If I'm not mistaken, G.M stocks are near junk status on one of the exchanges.

[Anonymous]

There are 2.3 retirees drawing benefits for every 1 GM worker. That should tell you something.

That would also tell you that GM's plans for massive layoffs isn't going to change that 2.3 to 1 ratio. GM is not tackling the legacy problem, instead it seems they're just trying to placate Wall Street in the interim.

Maybe they think the feds will bail out the legacy liabilities.

[vsmith]

OMG Im going to AGREE with James on something..HP's SUCK.

Just wait till you try to get that thing fixed, I'll tell ecactly what will happen, they wont!
My HP6110 all-in-one stopped, took it to a guy who said its an internal software problem, called HP who told me they dont repair them, they will only replace them if they are still under warrenty ( whats that like 90 days? ) otherwise you can arrainge what they call a " trade in or trade up" which is a fancy way of saying I'm going to have to pay for a big chunk of the replacment costs. SHEEEE-IIIIIT !!! They build a crap product that last until the warrenty is long gone, then ***s outs and i get hit with the big bite.

Now I dont know whether to take the replacement the POS or just lick my wounds and get something else. Of course , the whole world is make of crap now and I have no guarentee any other printer isnt a POS either.


As for GM, All I can offer is a couple observations. Have you looked at there lineup? How many big SUVs and big trucks in the offering? Combine that with last summers $3 a gallon gas and higher prices predicted next year, an what Ed said above, is it any wonder the company sales are tanking and the copmpany is in serious financial trouble?

GM hasnt been able to adapt, and that is what is going to do the most damage is its inability to evolve like Ford and Chrysler have to new market demands. there entire philosophy has been predicated on cheaap gas prices and those days are gone likely forever unless we find oil on the Moon. I've avoided them like the plague, other than the 72 Chevy Nova I drove into the ground in college, I havent heard anything positive from anyone I've known thats owned one. Its not about poorly made American products, Nissan, Toyota, Honda all have plants here and in Canada, its about a companies overall manufacturing and managment process that is severly flawed. PS my current Nissan truck was built here is the USA and it runs great.

[Anonymous]

Yep, I do. We have a Color LaserJet office printer. It is a lemon, it works about half the time. HP used to be a very innovative company but one of the CEOs (can't quite remember the name) ruined their reputation, for me at least.

[CrazyDiamond]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Look at what happened to Albertson#8217;s, or HP, I won#8217;t ever buy another piece of HP equipment.

At the risk of getting this wrong....do you mean HP the computer company? Hewlett Packard?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Gee, I've got over 209,000 miles on my 93 GMC Sierra. The only major work was rings and valves at about 115K, and 2 trannys, for which they are notorious. The rest has been routine. Maybe I'm just lucky. I've never owned a non GM car, but I also never bought a new one.[;)]

This one is only my sixth vehicle in 28 years, and two of them were with me for over 10 years each.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken

Ed, the voice of intellect, fact and reason. You are such a jerk ruining that little queen Lotuses anti Union rhetoric wtih fact. Lotus, put a sock in it. By the responses you get, can you not see that more than a few of us think that you are a little dork. Go away!

Ed, and I are not a total disagreement here; and the facts are not in disagreement with what I said either. Naturally it is a very complex issue, I was just pointing out one of the prominent reasons, bad management, high benefits (from the unions perhaps), and of course a lousy product, are still very much to blame. Also the unions haven't ruined any other car companies, since most autos factories are not outsourced, most are built like Honda, as mentioned right here in the good ole US because of shipping costs, so outsourcing isn't a problem. But, it should also deserves to be mentioned that something is up when a company starts to pay so much in benefits (part of wages). I had foreseen trouble for GM back when the employee discount kept getting stretched out; a warning sign that the company needed money. Aztec Eagle, I was only wondering, unions have their place, I will grant that; but could you please explain the flaws in my statement. Ed, I thank you for keeping a level head, were you just testing me last time?

If my ideas are so absurd they should be easy to disprove, and have hold water like a sieve, but mine ideas are fairly reasonable. I am not against all union, but people can strike without an organization telling them to, the management of such a thing doesn't have to be union, thought they were/are quite good at it. Not to try and drag us too par off the subject, as I too am wondering very much how this will effect the railroads, I will give you this quote to ponder out of a book I once read. The book, What Would Thomas Jefferson Think About This? by Richard J. Maybury, who has been called the “new Tom Paine” by some. In the book he takes the statist dogma most people take for granted and applies, logic, basic economics, and quotes and letters from the founding fathers; while pondering this please keep in mind this is a short excerpt from a book, it is very simple and may not apply to every case, I just thought I would share it with you people.

---

Unions Saved Workers

Satist Viewpoint
Businesses refused to grant higher wages or better working conditions to workers until the workers formed unions and forced these changes.

The Other Side of the Story
Unions did not bring better lighting to the factories, Thomas Edison did. A hundred years ago the new systems of scientific management found that workers produced more when they had better lighting, ventilation and other amenities. A soon as these were invented, the more progressive businesses began using them to gain a competitive advantage over the less progressive businesses.
Unions do raise wages, but in doing so they also cause more unemployment. An expensive is a worker likely to be replaced by a machine or some other innovation. If the wages are forced up very much, the firm might even close down and move out of the country.
A worker with a $50,000 hydraulic backhoe can dig more ditches and earn higher wages than one with a $20 shovel. The only way to achieve a real, lasting improvement in wages and working conditions is to accumulate the tools, training, raw materials and other factors to be more productive. Unions have little to do with it, but they take the credit.
The best – some would say the only – real protection for workers is a free market in which employers must bid against others for labor. Competition. Good workers will have a choice about taking their wages in the form of cash or in the form of health plans, pensions of other benefits. Bad worker will have the choice of either earning bad wages or becoming better workers.
Unions have been helpful to workers, this is true. But the help has been exaggerated. If all the costs, hidden and as well as unhidden, were weighed against benefits, the results would likely not be encouraging.

---

Now I am not blaming the unions wholly for the GM’s trouble, I have seen management run companies into the ground, and still earn millions of dollars. Look at what happened to Albertson’s, or HP, I won’t ever buy another piece of HP equipment.

Crazy Diamond, customer service is the boon to many a business.

[CrazyDiamond]

QUOTE: Originally posted by garr

I am 43 years old and have only had 3 vehicles in my life. The first 2 were GM, both of which went well over 200,000 miles, and my current, bought new, '96 Ford Explorer with 210,000 miles on the odometer. None of these three vehicles had anything but routine maintenance done to them. For those who say foriegn brands' quality is best, my wife's 2001 Lexus had its master seal replaced at 60,000 miles.

I am 34 years old, am on my 3rd GM truck, and I can tell you I will never buy another GM vehicle ever again. I have nothing but continous troubles with these things. My latest truck, is 1997 GMC Sierra, 90,000KM, and I baby this thing. I have had the following go wrong with it:
#1 Front wheel alighnment 7 times, (never been 4x4ing either)
#2 Two sets of front tires destroyed
#3 Front wheel bearing replaced
#4 Gear shift defective from factory
#5 Tail gate defective from factory, when lower it rubbed the bumper and in weeks wore off the paint.
#6 Intake manifold coolant leak
#7 Front end transfer case leak
#8 Power steering troubles, dealership can't find problem.
#9 Charging system troubles.
#10 Wiper motor failure.

But what really poisioned me....was the fact the experts at GM Goodwrench cannot fix my vehicle in the fist visit. I got to make at least 2 or sometime three trips to get it right.

Now, my wifes Honda Civic.....1995, over 200,000 KM.....one muffler replaced....and they did it right the first time.

.....I'm not the only one who knows this....the market knows this, and that is why their sales have plumeted, and now need huge discount sales to move their vechicles. What really saddens me, is that I actually love driving my GM truck...I am really confortable in it, I like the vehicle....I just hate its high maintence requirements and crappy service.......its cost me too much. [V]

How will this affect us? Will, one could argue that this will put a lot of people out of work, and this will cool the economy a little, and this will see less people buying less stuff, which means less freight being moved, which means a few less trains! Who knows?!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually, unless GM reduces the number of total vehicles it produces, the railroads may see little net loss in shipping revenue. Parts still need to reach assembly plants, no matter the country of origin. And finished automobiles still have to be shipped to dealers.

The railroads might actually benefit, having to move freight further than under the current arrangement.

[Junctionfan]

GM makes me mad. This garbage is just another reason why St.Catharines' economy is going down hill. They closed down the foundary in St.Catharines which recieved awards for efficiency; they pretty much reduced all the jobs at the Ontario Street plant and I don't even know what is up with the Welland Avenue plant-looks barren to me.

The government gave GM basically a bribe to thrive in St.Catharines which was our major thing and in return, we got zilch. Some ROI indeed.

I think St.Catharines needs to start finding more industries and tell GM to go screw themselves so the workers won't get their hopes up for their layoffs to be only temperary. This way those workers can get a decent job hopefully in their trade, and hopefully gain some job security too-something they would not be used to as of late.

As for railroading goes. In St.Catharines, this doesn't effect a thing. All plants stopped rail service sometime in the early 90s that I can remember. The spur to the Ontario Street plant was removed thanks to some idiots in city council and Welland Avenue plant I don't think ever recieved rail despite being so close to a spur. The foundary stopped getting rail service because of CN (before Harrison). For some reason, the railroad decided to want to stop shipping them coke and autobox cars.

[edblysard]

Jay,
I agree, had the unions had access to the same data as the auto makers, and applied a little common sense, both sides would have realized this was coming.
I also agree that the makers should have bargained harder, and offered less.
But at the time, based on what they were looking at on the surface, it was good, so...

Not a 100% Union fan either, although I do think they serve a good purpose, and I do belong to the UTU.

But both sides bear some of the "blame”, had they worked together this could have been stopped.

GM has been top heavy for a long time.
Iacocca made sure Chrysler wasn’t.

Ford has been quietly modernizing their plants for over a decade, and allowing natural attrition to pare down their work force.

Yes, I think the last contract was negotiated by Chrysler...

Ed

[edblysard]

Eastside...
How true.
Even if GM tanked all of its upper management, and banked their salaries, bonuses and such, it would make such a minuscule dent as to almost be un-noticeable.

The real problem isn’t salaries, both management and union... but the basic way GM does business.
They are so stratified and hidebound that even if they did come up with a world beater in design, something like this century's version of the Vette, they still couldn’t get it in production for 4 to 5 years, too late to make a difference.

Not to toot the horn of my car, but take Chrysler's concept car, the Dodge Magnum.
Built as a one off based on the 300, for a trade show, it sparked enough interest that Daimler Chrysler put it into production at Brampton, Ontario...marketed it through their fleet and truck sales, (its called a multi purpose utility vehicle) even though its a station wagon.
Its sales accounted for 1/4 of Daimler Chryslers American sales...so they added another line to the LX platform, the Charger.
Predictions are the LX platform, Magnum, 300s and the Charger will keep Chrysler in the black for the next 3 to 5 years.

All in less than 3 years, from concept to sales floor.

GM can’t do that.

Ford has, take the Mustang, old name, brand new car underneath.
From concept to sales, in about 3 years also.
Prototype unveiled in 2002, sales began last quarter 2004.

GM failed to recognize that the auto business had to adapt to a new set of technologies and a new type of consumer...nor did they make plans to capture any of them.

Ed

[Anonymous]

Merry *(&*@##$@!!!ing christmas GM workers [V] They should at least let them work until after the holidays, i mean these people have familys...[V]

[garr]

Ed,

Wasn't the last UAW contract actually negotiated with Chrysler? And, as has historically been done, GM and Ford agreed to the terms of this negotiation. IIRC, the three US automakers rotate on the UAW contract negotiations and the two automakers not in on the negotiations agree to the terms reached.

Fuel prices were the catalyst in the GM problems. What we are seeing today was eventually going to happen, just not as fast. WSJ reports say that GM's problems of today actually started 5 decades ago. One big problem was GM management not saying no to union demands of 100% insurance coverage for current and retired employees. Each GM vehicle has around $1,500 of its sale price going to health care costs. Ford's and Chrysler's is a little less, IIRC, $1,100 to $1,300 per vehicle and Toyota's only in the $400 range per vehicle.

I am as close to middle of the road on the pro/anti union/management debate that one can get. I own my own company and am its only employee. My customers are both union and nonunion companies and I enjoy working with both. But my one question from your post is, in those decade+ ago negotiations, wouldn't it have been better for the unions to bend on the health care premiums so that more people would have stayed employeed at Ford and Chyrsler?

I believe GM's 0% marketing campiagn had a lot to do with America's economic recovery after 9/11. And I am proud to say that I have only bought US made autos.

I am 43 years old and have only had 3 vehicles in my life. The first 2 were GM, both of which went well over 200,000 miles, and my current, bought new, '96 Ford Explorer with 210,000 miles on the odometer. None of these three vehicles had anything but routine maintenance done to them. For those who say foriegn brands' quality is best, my wife's 2001 Lexus had its master seal replaced at 60,000 miles.

Jay

[AztecEagle]

Lotus;Quit Listening To All The Windbags On Talk Radio and Get Out Here In The Real World!!!You Seem To Have The Mindset That "Unions Have Outlived Their Usefullness.If We'd Just Let The Free Market Take Matters In Hand,Why Everything'll Be Just Nice and Bright and Sunshiny!!".Long Ago and Far Away,I Figured Out That That Conservatives,Like Liberals,Tend To Live In Their Little Ivory Towers and Beleive Everything Theyr'e Told And Follow In Lock Step!!Do Charles Manson;Jim Jones;David Koresh and Hersh Applewhite Come Into Mind??You Know,Some Of Us Ain't Gonna Drink The Poisoned Kool Aid or Shoot It Out With The Feds Just Because "Fearless Leader"Says It's So!!Attention Both Sides:Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh Ain't Looking Out For You!!Neither Are Al Franken and The Nameless Yammemers On Air America!!!Just emember,When Some Coroparate Raider Buys Your Companyand Moves It To China,Don't Come Begging To The Rest of Us For A Morsel of Food While Wer'e Bundling By The Fire In Some Hobo Jungle!!If You Beleive In The Coroporate Survival of the Fittest,Then Don't Be Sad When You Die By The Corporate Survival of the Fittest!!! John T.Patterson.Wasting Technology Since 2001."When The Legend Becomes Truth,Print The Legend."-John Ford.

[eastside]

Not exactly a bolt from the blue. The sales of highly profitable SUVs masked GM’s deterioration for the past several years. Now that sales of SUVs have tanked along with total market share, GM is suddenly faced with its day of reckoning.

GM has a highly profitable financing operation (GMAC) and foreign auto operations are doing moderately well. Its Buick operation China, which sells entirely to the internal market, has been notably successful. Despite this, for the 3 quarters so far this year, GM has lost $3.8 billion, mostly attributable to domestic auto sales.

The reaction of business analysts to GM’s announcement seems to be pretty tepid. Most seem to feel that it’s a minimal first step that doesn’t address its core problems: pension costs and neglecting to diversify its product base (e.g. hybrids). GM is coming to market in 2006 with a bunch of new models -- you guessed it -- SUVs planned years ago. The huge cutbacks in the ‘90s, under an agreement with its unions, loaded GM with about 3 retirees per active employee. The immediate effect of the closures will bring that ratio to about 6 retirees per employee. I’m not certain that any corporation can remain viable for long under such an enormous burden.

Cutting management and management benefits will save a few tens of millions, but we’re talking of many billions that GM must cut. A mere gesture, IMO.

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

It is amazing that GM is going to take over three year to make these cuts. They are not facing bankruptcy in three years but this year.

At the rate GM is burning through its cash, I’d give it closer to two-and-half years, unless it takes some pretty drastic steps. The PBGC is another stellar example that no good deed goes unpunished, especially when it comes to acts of government. Congress meant to save, at least partially (note), worker pensions, but the unintended effect was that it also gave corporations additional incentive for entering bankruptcy, sooner rather than later. The PBGC is broke already. How do you think taxpayers will react when they realize they’ve been left holding the bag?

[AztecEagle]

I Agree With You Guys.Yes,I Think That There's A Lot Of Union B.S. Involved,But There's Just Way Too Much Management B.S. as Well.If They'd Quit Giving Out All These Bonuses To Upper Management,Maybe A Lot More Companies Wouldn't Be Going Broke!!

[JoeKoh]

yes gm has screwed up big time and they now have the federal govt looking in their books too.I just hope the retirees dont loose their money and the other workers can keep working to feed thier families.
stay safe
joe

[Anonymous]

Ed, the voice of intellect, fact and reason. You are such a jerk ruining that little queen Lotuses anti Union rhetoric wtih fact. Lotus, put a sock in it. By the responses you get, can you not see that more than a few of us think that you are a little dork. Go away!

[bobwilcox]

It is amazing that GM is going to take over three year to make these cuts. They are not facing bankruptcy in three years but this year.

[edblysard]

The current Union contract was negotiated over a decade ago...its not like the Unions got up last week and said we demand this and this...
Place the blame exactly where it belongs...GM Management made bad decisions, produced a so-so product, sat on their fannys as their US competition made big changes in the type of car they built, and how they go about building them.

GM knew years ago how much it would be paying out in all those “union” perks and such….its not like they don’t have accountants and such.

Same unions work at Ford and Chrysler, and those two are not in the toilet...
As for foreign autos...most of your Toyotas and Hondas are made right here, in Tennessee and Kentucky, and Toyota is building a plant here in Texas.
All built by American auto workers, all paying those extreme union wages.

Ford and Chrysler both took a look at what they would be paying out in retirement, benefits and such well over a decade ago, and decided to buy out who they could right then, and replace them with robotics and automated manufactures, then streamlined how they build cars, introduced new designs, and instituted quality controls that makes GM’s look so shabby by comparison.

Honda and Toyota, Nissan, most of the established "foreign" makers also got their quality control way better than GM over a decade ago...my neighbor is still driving his 1975 Datsun B1500 pick up…well over 300 thousand miles on it.

So, two of the big three paid attention when they should have, one of them decided that business as usual was the way to go...
Daimler Chrysler is blowing GM away, Ford Trucks out sell GM...Go figure whose management teams were on the ball and looked ahead, and whose were more worried about their green fees than their business...

I mean, my god, who in their right mind would buy Fiat?

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

I told you that if Unions keep trying to get higher wages and benifits people would lose their jobs. Sad [sigh]

[Anonymous]

The UAW for many yrs has been the most powerful of any industry union. Their members have enjoyed totally 100% covered health care costs by their employer for a long time. This is the sign of a very powerful collective bargin process by the union. Now it appears this is coming to an end. I have no problem, at wages like you make in an auto plant, (some union positions pay well over what rr jobs pay) for a10-15% out of pocket monthly cost to pay for health care. This is a very expensive cost for any employer and by paying a small percentage yourself, people will really be thankful for what they have and not take it for granted.