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[quote]QUOTE: Originally posted by ironken Ed, the voice of intellect, fact and reason. You are such a jerk ruining that little queen Lotuses anti Union rhetoric wtih fact. Lotus, put a sock in it. By the responses you get, can you not see that more than a few of us think that you are a little dork. Go away! [/quote] Ed, and I are not a total disagreement here; and the facts are not in disagreement with what I said either. Naturally it is a very complex issue, I was just pointing out one of the prominent reasons, bad management, high benefits (from the unions perhaps), and of course a lousy product, are still very much to blame. Also the unions haven't ruined any other car companies, since most autos factories are not outsourced, most are built like Honda, as mentioned right here in the good ole US because of shipping costs, so outsourcing isn't a problem. But, it should also deserves to be mentioned that something is up when a company starts to pay so much in benefits (part of wages). I had foreseen trouble for GM back when the employee discount kept getting stretched out; a warning sign that the company needed money. Aztec Eagle, I was only wondering, unions have their place, I will grant that; but could you please explain the flaws in my statement. Ed, I thank you for keeping a level head, were you just testing me last time? If my ideas are so absurd they should be easy to disprove, and have hold water like a sieve, but mine ideas are fairly reasonable. I am not against all union, but people can strike without an organization telling them to, the management of such a thing doesn't have to be union, thought they were/are quite good at it. Not to try and drag us too par off the subject, as I too am wondering very much how this will effect the railroads, I will give you this quote to ponder out of a book I once read. The book, What Would Thomas Jefferson Think About This? by Richard J. Maybury, who has been called the “new Tom Paine” by some. In the book he takes the statist dogma most people take for granted and applies, logic, basic economics, and quotes and letters from the founding fathers; while pondering this please keep in mind this is a short excerpt from a book, it is very simple and may not apply to every case, I just thought I would share it with you people. <hr noshade size="1"> <center>Unions Saved Workers</center> Satist Viewpoint Businesses refused to grant higher wages or better working conditions to workers until the workers formed unions and forced these changes. The Other Side of the Story Unions did not bring better lighting to the factories, Thomas Edison did. A hundred years ago the new systems of scientific management found that workers produced more when they had better lighting, ventilation and other amenities. A soon as these were invented, the more progressive businesses began using them to gain a competitive advantage over the less progressive businesses. Unions do raise wages, but in doing so they also cause more unemployment. An expensive is a worker likely to be replaced by a machine or some other innovation. If the wages are forced up very much, the firm might even close down and move out of the country. A worker with a $50,000 hydraulic backhoe can dig more ditches and earn higher wages than one with a $20 shovel. The only way to achieve a real, lasting improvement in wages and working conditions is to accumulate the tools, training, raw materials and other factors to be more productive. Unions have little to do with it, but they take the credit. The best – some would say the only – real protection for workers is a free market in which employers must bid against others for labor. Competition. Good workers will have a choice about taking their wages in the form of cash or in the form of health plans, pensions of other benefits. Bad worker will have the choice of either earning bad wages or becoming better workers. Unions have been helpful to workers, this is true. But the help has been exaggerated. If all the costs, hidden and as well as unhidden, were weighed against benefits, the results would likely not be encouraging. <hr noshade size="1"> Now I am not blaming the unions wholly for the GM’s trouble, I have seen management run companies into the ground, and still earn millions of dollars. Look at what happened to Albertson’s, or HP, I won’t ever buy another piece of HP equipment. Crazy Diamond, customer service is the boon to many a business.
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