GM closing nine plants

[Anonymous]

Sierrarr. Sounds like sour grapes when you say us rails make too much money. It is not your position to determine my wages. What is it prey tell that you do for a living? How much do you make? You seem to know so much about my craft, hows about sharing something about yourself........Have you done my job? Do you know anymore about my job than what you have read? Please, dazzle me! You should put a sock in it. I get sick of some of this non-union drivel floating about here.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by APG45
In the US Ford makes the worst vehicles in terms of quality. Some GM vehicles are as good as Toyota and Honda, many are slightly behind.

Is this your "professional" opinion, or do you have any facts to support your claim?

I have had 'car quality' discussions with many people about cars over the years, and I know that each person has their own opinion on vehicles, which seems to be based on actual experience with a particular brand.

I know people that swear by Jeeps, whereas the Jeeps I've owned needed so many repairs by 120K miles, that after two such vehicles, I swore to never buy another one.

I've seen GM vehicles with well over 300K miles, and they were still functioning.

Some folks say that though their Chrysler products were nice when they bought them, they seemed to fall apart near about 100K miles.

Lots of people do not like Fords, but the two Explorers I've owned I sold at about 180K miles, and I sold them just because I wanted something newer, not because they were having problems. The 03 Ranger I own now has 75K miles on it, and I have had ZERO problems so far. None! (knock on wood)

Bottom line is, I feel, that each company can make a good vehicle, and can also make a crappy vehicle. Luck of the draw, I guess.

I agree with you Zardoz, it probably is luck of the draw. I have owned all Fords except for one Chevy. All of the Fords were great, I would still have my Explorer, that was in mint condition at 99,500 miles, had it not been for an out of control duct cleaning truck; the Explorer gave it's life to save mine. The Chevy was mechanically good but had a serious paint problem that they could not solve and GM would not stand behind the car.

[Modelcar]

...GM is not that far behind other "American" manufactures in producing Hybrids.....It probably contributes to the problem of market share but they do need to be more competitive in "new" and active designs of main stream autos. Producing "new" designs that bring in more showroom traffic to increase market share. Cost cutting is imperative but it will require regaining more market share to help them out of this crisis.

[daveklepper]

I am 73 years old, and the danger of falling asleep at the wheel is one reason I have not driven for 11 years. But I did own three cars, the first a Ford Mainline and the second and third Cehvrolet Corvairs (the last bought just before the Corvair was discontinued). I enjoyed driving all of them and had no complaints about USA quality. But it is clear that GM did not react in the right direction to the events of 11.09.01 or a much higher percentage of the car production would be hybrids.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by APG45

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Arent they? Given the increasingly globally nature of trade, no one is an island any more.

How many workers do Toyota/Honda/GM have in the UK vs. the USA? I don't know the figures but am willing to bet their UK operations are a drop in the bucket compared to the US. GM is one of the largest (the largest?) private employer in the US.

From what I've read on the subject, for a car plant to be viable it must produce at least 200,000 cars a year. At the moment the Nissan and Toyota plants are the only ones in Britain which make this number or more though the Honda plant is rapidly approaching that level.

Just as an aside, when Britain and the EU tried to get the Japs to voluntary limit imports, these limits did not apply to Honda cars made in the US. Since these latter had a sufficiently high proportion of US made components to count as US made, Honda were able to import as many of these as they wished into the EU.

[eastside]

Governments don't pay for programs, despite the representations of politicians, taxpayers -- you and I -- do. In the case of a national health care scheme in effect the government redistributes health costs among the taxpayers. In addition, there are considerable administrative costs because the government is involved. The big three automakers lobbied for a national health scheme because they could unload much of their enormous health care costs onto the taxpayer.

The role of a politician is to take credit for spending our money. Most Americans have access to health insurance and have become used to a gold-plated health care system, which would make it that much more difficult to implement a satisfactory national system. Countries with nationalized health care have big problems too, but this is way beyond the scope of this forum.

Legacy costs refer to benefits and health care associated with retirees, not health costs associated with current staff. GM's are currently about $1600/car whereas in Toyota's US plants it's about $200.

[andrewjonathon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

The real probelm is our companys are playing against a stacked deck in every other industrialized nation health care is paid for by the goverment!! Clinton tried to get passed in 1993 and everybody crucified him for it. In Japan the goverment pays for healthcare and that alone saves the Japaneese companies 1000 bucks in legacey costs per car. In our country it is the have and have nots when it comes to health care. Remove GM's health care costs and the last 3 quarters NA operations was profitable.

Manufacturing companies in other industrialized countries may not be saddled with the same healthcare burdens that US companies face but I think they have their own challenges.

Healthcare may be free for the individual people in other countries but at the end of the day someone still has to pay the bills. Remember, a government doesn't have anymore money than it collects from its citizens and businesses. In many countries, companies foot a large part of the healthcare bill either by paying direct healthcare taxes or through paying high corporate taxes or a combination of both.

[MJ4562]

Okay you're right about the "Too much..." but I think he meant they were over the market rate and just didn't word it well, IMO.

GM management was definately asleep at the switch. Or more likely took the path of least resistance figuring they would take their bonuses and cash out before the trouble hit. ********.

There are two sides to the blue collar worker thing. On the individual company level it's bad because it's hard for them to compete because their costs are higher than the competition. On the national USA level it's good because as you say it gives those workers purchasing power to pump money back into the economy.

There's no easy answer to any of this and economists have been and will continue to argue about this for decades to come. Eventually events will just unfold and we will have to survive the best we can.

JD Power.....that measures initial quality (1st year of ownership) in the opinion of the buyer. How about 5 years out? Do all people use the same scale when judging what a defect is and how serious? I always wonder when filling those surveys out....if you're someone that buys a new car every two years wouldn't it be to your advantage to report no defects as this will increase the resale value of your vehicle?

[edblysard]

I don’t know, sounds like he is stating that union workers make too much money for a blue collar worker...
Point is, I agree with you APG45, there is no limit, it is whatever the market will bear.

And don’t kid yourself; this didn't just jump up in GM's face out of the blue, they knew
exactly what the cost would be when they signed the deal, I mean, they have to project their production cost years and years in advance just for tooling up the plants, and the cost of labor is figured into it...they just got caught with nothing sellable to compete with, and made a few other bad business decisions.

Last, even if you can show me how a blue collar worker is overpaid, you still have to consider this...they don’t take the money they are paid out of circulation...they turn right around and add it back into the economy by spending it...they shop at Wal-Mart, Sears, Dillard’s, McDonalds and GM too...
Oh, and as for railroaders being union and overpaid...my UPS driver makes as much as I do, with a better benefit package...

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by sierrarr

I agree that the union people make TOO much money per hour for a blue collar job and have to pay NO health benefits.

[Modelcar]

....J D Power people is a concern generally accepted as a reliable source of quality reference.

[MJ4562]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz
Is this your "professional" opinion, or do you have any facts to support your claim?

Just speaking from my experience and those around me. I doubt anyone has ever really sifted through all the data and done unbiased field research. I know there are a lot of companies that rate cars but they tend to rely on only a few measures and mainly their judgements. Not exactly an objective approach.

It's really a matter of perception and not actual reliability. Every automaker has their share of lemons and amazing vehicles. No exceptions.

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard
Ok, Sierrarr, exactly how much money is it OK for a blue collar worker to make?
I mean, from you post, there appeares to be a limit, so what is it?

I didn't get that from his post. It should be whatever the market rate is. Now that non-union plants have opened up shop it's easy to see what that is. You mentioned the new Toyota plant in San Antonio. They were originally going to pay $15/hr. with benefits comparable to Wal-mart (now that they've added health insurance) but they got so many qualified applicants they have lowered that rate to $10/hr.

One of the results of globalization will be that wages in the US will decline and wages in the Third world will increase until they meet in the middle somewhere.
Workers will be paid not by their nationality but what their skills are. It will be a rough ride.

[edblysard]

Ok, Sierrarr, exactly how much money is it OK for a blue collar worker to make?
I mean, from you post, there appeares to be a limit, so what is it?

As for quality of cars, I, like the Big Z, have owned everything from Jeeps to an old MGB...some were junk, some were fantastic... I know folks who have 200 to 300 thousand on all makes...but I also know folks who bought lemons right of the lot from all the major players...
Quality is possible from them all, but so is junk.

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by sierrarr

A lot of it is a money hungry union. Our new car is a Toyota because of the better gas milage for a comparable car from GM. The difference was about 20% better for the Toyota and with price of gas it makes a big difference. I agree that the union people make TOO much money per hour for a blue collar job and have to pay NO health benefits. That is not going to work in todays world. Now on GM's part. They have to start making cars which beat the foreign cars in milage, and DON'T tell me the technology is not out there because if you do there are a couple of bridges I will sell you REAL CHEAP. We also have a Saturn and love it. If the Saturn had comparble gas milage we would have bought one. The Saturns' gas milage was 28/24 compared to the Toyots' 40/35. I rest my case.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Zardos, Rangers are made here in the Northland.

Last week in the wake of GM's plant closing announcement, the subject of closing Ford's St Paul plant came up in the local news. This isn't the first time there has been talk, but people are really worried that it might actually happen this time. I think they said the plant has been in operation for 86 years.

If this happens, CP and UP stand to lose a lot of business in the area. CP's tracks go right into the plant. UP started that Triple Crown service with NS, with Ford as a cornerstone customer.

I plan to represent the Ford plant on my model railroad. Better get the camera fired up.

Sure is pleasantly quiet around here all of a sudden. Wonder why. [swg]

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by APG45
In the US Ford makes the worst vehicles in terms of quality. Some GM vehicles are as good as Toyota and Honda, many are slightly behind.

Is this your "professional" opinion, or do you have any facts to support your claim?

I have had 'car quality' discussions with many people about cars over the years, and I know that each person has their own opinion on vehicles, which seems to be based on actual experience with a particular brand.

I know people that swear by Jeeps, whereas the Jeeps I've owned needed so many repairs by 120K miles, that after two such vehicles, I swore to never buy another one.

I've seen GM vehicles with well over 300K miles, and they were still functioning.

Some folks say that though their Chrysler products were nice when they bought them, they seemed to fall apart near about 100K miles.

Lots of people do not like Fords, but the two Explorers I've owned I sold at about 180K miles, and I sold them just because I wanted something newer, not because they were having problems. The 03 Ranger I own now has 75K miles on it, and I have had ZERO problems so far. None! (knock on wood)

Bottom line is, I feel, that each company can make a good vehicle, and can also make a crappy vehicle. Luck of the draw, I guess.

[Anonymous]

A lot of it is a money hungry union. Our new car is a Toyota because of the better gas milage for a comparable car from GM. The difference was about 20% better for the Toyota and with price of gas it makes a big difference. I agree that the union people make TOO much money per hour for a blue collar job and have to pay NO health benefits. That is not going to work in todays world. Now on GM's part. They have to start making cars which beat the foreign cars in milage, and DON'T tell me the technology is not out there because if you do there are a couple of bridges I will sell you REAL CHEAP. We also have a Saturn and love it. If the Saturn had comparble gas milage we would have bought one. The Saturns' gas milage was 28/24 compared to the Toyots' 40/35. I rest my case.

[Modelcar]

...The "cure" will of course require drastic cost cutting but on this one....they will have to do more than cut costs to turn it around...They must revive product to the point that buyers will want to get into the showrooms to see what is the latest and newest from GM and have enough that those buyers will want to pruchase one....

[edbenton]

How about limiting malpractice awards and also disbarring any atty that says I can get you money if you took xyz medication.

[Modelcar]

....But removing the health care costs is not a simple and easy problem to cure.....
I hope a solution can be found and soon...as it is now a more than serious problem.

[edbenton]

The real probelm is our companys are playing against a stacked deck in every other industrialized nation health care is paid for by the goverment!! Clinton tried to get passed in 1993 and everybody crucified him for it. In Japan the goverment pays for healthcare and that alone saves the Japaneese companies 1000 bucks in legacey costs per car. In our country it is the have and have nots when it comes to health care. Remove GM's health care costs and the last 3 quarters NA operations was profitable.

[Modelcar]

..GM simply has too much cost per manufactured vehicle compared to it's competition.
It simply must take out some of the cost to become competitive again.
Lotus....Regarding sports cars: Better bone up on the "facts" re: 2006 Chevrolet Corvette C6...It can compete with just about anyone in the world market for performance....
Another "fact" is quality and reliability....Look to the Japanese...especially Lexus.
US car makers have made great strides in quality in the past decade but still cars like Lexus have an edge......
GM had roughly in the high 50's US market percentage about 1960 and now have about 25 % of the US market.
GM MUST shed costs and revamp some of their product to bring in the buying public in order to survive.....It must be done soon or it may be too late.
I surely hope it will be successfully done and get on the road to recovery....A GM failure will bode not well for the car industry in this country....Ford is not very far behind GM in similar trouble.....and they have had some quality problems lately too....
Health car costs are a massive problem to all US manufactures.
I will root for GM as I've said in an earlier post I am a GM vehicle owner so I want them to survive and do well.....

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by icmr

See what happend to GM after they sold EMD.

IMO it's just as well for both that GM sold EMD. GM realized that it was becoming more and more difficult to provide the ongoing investment that EMD required, a distraction from its core operations. After all EMD is competing with GE, one of the great money machines that has ever existed. Starved of sufficient investment funds, EMD would have been a declining asset.

[MJ4562]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
In the last few years Vauxhall (GM's UK susbisduary) have been rated very poorly in reliability surveys done by the car magazine "Top Gear". By contrast Ford have improved and are now on a par with the Japanese car makers. This seems to tally with what people have been saying about Ford in the US. So there seems to be a pattern emerging.

The only thing Ford or GM about those vehicles is the name of the holding company. Those subsidiaries operate autonomously and have little or nothing in common with the US subsidiaries.

In the US Ford makes the worst vehicles in terms of quality. Some GM vehicles are as good as Toyota and Honda, many are slightly behind. GM has a lot of different models and needs to drop many of them and concentrate on their best ones.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the other posters on page 6 in terms of quality and the need to move forward. It's time to stop pointing fingers and work out a solution.

[MJ4562]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Arent they? Given the increasingly globally nature of trade, no one is an island any more.

How many workers do Toyota/Honda/GM have in the UK vs. the USA? I don't know the figures but am willing to bet their UK operations are a drop in the bucket compared to the US. GM is one of the largest (the largest?) private employer in the US.

You're missing the real issue here which is healthcare. In the US health insurance is paid for by individuals not the government. Employers may pay part of that while you are working. If you want to cover your spouse or your children you pay even more. When you retire you pay all of your health insurance/medical costs. The unionized auto workers get all of their (plus their spouses and minor children) insurance paid for by their employer for the rest of their lives. No other group in the US receives such a generous package. (Certainly not Toyota employees!). UAW members also receive free legal representation and numerous other benefits. This is an enormous expense [modest health insurance here costs about $10,000-$20,000 per person per year currently and has been going up about 20% every year]. Making things worse is that they are paying wages 2-3 times what Toyota and Honda are paying in the US.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
As for the issue of unions, I think that is a red herring. Have you ever met anyone who's said "I wont be a car made by X cos their unions are a load of commies"?.

???? Again you are missing the issue. No one ever said that. GM workers are the best in the world. The problem is there are too many of them and they are overpaid. GM could afford to overpay its workers when it dominated the world market. This is a luxury it can no longer afford now that it's facing stiff competition.

GM has excessive production capacity in the form of too many employees and too many factories. GM used to control over 75% of the US market *(and most of the world market) and it now has about 20% of the US market. The obvious response is that if GM built better vehicles it wouldn't have lost market share.
Well the world has changed since the 1950s. The rest of the world has caught up. In today's marketplace no automaker will ever again have that much dominance (20-25% is about the most any automaker can hope for). GM needs to cut its workforce, reduce wages & benefits and close plants to reflect reality.

Unfortunately the unions have fought GM at every turn trying to prevent them from rationalizing their production capacity. They use their enormous political clout to pressure GM from doing what it needs to do to compete effectively.

Consumers don't care about any of this. They want a quality product at a reasonable price. Although there are some variations, automobiles are commodities. There is a set price range for each class of vehicle regardless of perceived quality. That means manufacturers have to manage their costs. If you pay too much for materials or labor, you can't spend as much on product improvement. This is the problem GM is having. It spends too much on labor and so it can't afford to spend as much as Toyota on product improvement.



*GM by itself used to account for about 2% of US GNP. An incredible figure for any private company.

[traintownofcowee]

That sure stinks! I just hope that locomotive development won't be held back either.
There's only one thing left to do...just wait and see...

C U ALL L8TER!!!
[:)][:D][8D][:(][?][:O][8)][|)][:)][:P][;)][X-)][%-)][(-D][swg]

[icmr]

See what happend to GM after they sold EMD.



ICMR

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by APG45

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

Are the Honda and Toyota plants even unionizedd? I don't realy know but I have heard they are not.

Their plants in Britain most definitely are unionised, and they're also the most efficient in Europe. They also pay the best wages in the car industry here and seem to be doing well.

As Napoleon once said: "No such thing as a bad soldier, only bad officers".

The discussion is referring to plants located in the United States. I'm referring to their US operations. Plants outside the US are not relevant.

Arent they? Given the increasingly globally nature of trade, no one is an island any more.

Just as GM seem to have lost the plot in the US,, judging by what other people have said on this thred, so too in Britain and Europe. In the last few years Vauxhall (GM's UK susbisduary) have been rated very poorly in reliability surveys done by the car magazine "Top Gear". By contrast Ford have improved and are now on a par with the Japanese car makers. This seems to tally with what people have been saying about Ford in the US. So there seems to be a pattern emerging.

As for the issue of unions, I think that is a red herring. Have you ever met anyone who's said "I wont be a car made by X cos their unions are a load of commies"?. I haven't but I've met loads of people who wont buy a car if they think it will be unreliable. That's what counts at the end of the day.

[Anonymous]

My dad could actually buy a dual turbo-charged. Adui A-6; which he did. Beats the socks off the Ford escort we are currently have. I agree with 440cuin thoughts that Asian automakers are more of the problem; and as also stated, they are not do not have unionized factories. When it comes to most reliable, or best value for you money. Americans cars win out. But almost any Lotus will make dog meat out of any American sports car. I have been presenting most of the facts here.

[TH&B]

I think it realy is the Asian and Japanese makers that threaten the GM, I don't think Europeans are the threat. VW is the only real large vlume European car in the US, we don't get much Fiat or Renault etc, alot of large European companys don't even bother the US exept for "hi end" types the ones you mentioned.

I'm sorry to hear this bad news, if only as a rail fan watching the hi cube parts trains, as far as I know they are mostly GM and Ford.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsanchez

Then why are the unionized Japanese plants not being shut down, also American Auto workers earn less than their Japanese and German counterparts. I used to be anti-union until I got a job on class one railroad, believe me unions are needed more than ever.
What kind of pay cuts are the executives taking at GM for making cars the public has little interest in, GM's biggest problem is going to be with consumers under 30 who much prefer Hondas, Suburus and Toyotas and for the most part do not even consider a GM product as an option. It helps to build a product people want and by the way Chrysler is doing well because of doing just that!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Paul,

Businesses have to think of wages as a cost, like steel. A company is not going to over pay for supplies; neither are they going to pay for high wages. Now because of it (and other factors) none of these people have jobs, a lot of good those unions did, and are earning nothing instead. The money to pay people more has to come from somewhere, in this case the price of the car. If you are in such favor of Unions I suggest you always pay the highest price for everything, since odds are that has the most Union people to pay. Raising wages, be it minimum wage, or by unions, is like inflation, it really doesn't get anyone any more money, since the people earn more, but also pay more for goods. Unions had their place historically, but have outlived most of their usefulness, becoming collections places for a certain political party, in fact did you know that the ACLU was founded by communist?

I believe in Japan their citizens were\are, forced to buy new cars every year. That explains that. I think when it comes to these companies especially European ones; people are willing to pay for quality, no American company has anything close to an Audi, either quality or price wise. Also, Japanese cars, like Honda, were good quality high mileage cars; so they had a part of the market with little competition, from American companies. This, as noted, was a big problem for GM.

I am always looking to see how people think on issues like this. Why, in your opinion do we need the unions now more than ever? What do you view as flawed in what I said about economics?

James-

European cars are LESS reliable than American ones. Audis and their VW cousins are not particularly good. Neither are Mercedes. BMWs are only so-so. You could look it up, but I doubt you will. You don't like fact-based discussions.