GM closing nine plants

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton
Of course, these day, one might question how much time is ever given to thinking.

Have people there also remarked that that this week's cuts may have only been round one? I haven't seen anything specific to Janesville, but most analyst articles that I've read insist that GM must go much further.

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eastside

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton
Of course, these day, one might question how much time is ever given to thinking.

Have people there also remarked that that this week's cuts may have only been round one? I haven't seen anything specific to Janesville, but most analyst articles that I've read insist that GM must go much further.

Many prople around here are of the opinion that Janesville is at the edge, but not OUT of the woods.

Jay

[jsanchez]

Then why are the unionized Japanese plants not being shut down, also American Auto workers earn less than their Japanese and German counterparts. I used to be anti-union until I got a job on class one railroad, believe me unions are needed more than ever.
What kind of pay cuts are the executives taking at GM for making cars the public has little interest in, GM's biggest problem is going to be with consumers under 30 who much prefer Hondas, Suburus and Toyotas and for the most part do not even consider a GM product as an option. It helps to build a product people want and by the way Chrysler is doing well because of doing just that!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Paul,

Businesses have to think of wages as a cost, like steel. A company is not going to over pay for supplies; neither are they going to pay for high wages. Now because of it (and other factors) none of these people have jobs, a lot of good those unions did, and are earning nothing instead. The money to pay people more has to come from somewhere, in this case the price of the car. If you are in such favor of Unions I suggest you always pay the highest price for everything, since odds are that has the most Union people to pay. Raising wages, be it minimum wage, or by unions, is like inflation, it really doesn't get anyone any more money, since the people earn more, but also pay more for goods. Unions had their place historically, but have outlived most of their usefulness, becoming collections places for a certain political party, in fact did you know that the ACLU was founded by communist?

[TH&B]

Are the Honda and Toyota plants even unionizedd? I don't realy know but I have heard they are not.

[Modelcar]

...As most know GM's costs per vehicle are too high as compared to competition...and everyone that is around the bargaining table must take some blame. Now the problem has mushroomed to a breaking point and action must be taken or we will not have a GM much longer. Seems both sides will now have to dig pretty deep to "save" the operations....The end result down the road in a year or so will be very different than it has been in the past and as it is now....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsanchez

Then why are the unionized Japanese plants not being shut down, also American Auto workers earn less than their Japanese and German counterparts. I used to be anti-union until I got a job on class one railroad, believe me unions are needed more than ever.
What kind of pay cuts are the executives taking at GM for making cars the public has little interest in, GM's biggest problem is going to be with consumers under 30 who much prefer Hondas, Suburus and Toyotas and for the most part do not even consider a GM product as an option. It helps to build a product people want and by the way Chrysler is doing well because of doing just that!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Paul,

Businesses have to think of wages as a cost, like steel. A company is not going to over pay for supplies; neither are they going to pay for high wages. Now because of it (and other factors) none of these people have jobs, a lot of good those unions did, and are earning nothing instead. The money to pay people more has to come from somewhere, in this case the price of the car. If you are in such favor of Unions I suggest you always pay the highest price for everything, since odds are that has the most Union people to pay. Raising wages, be it minimum wage, or by unions, is like inflation, it really doesn't get anyone any more money, since the people earn more, but also pay more for goods. Unions had their place historically, but have outlived most of their usefulness, becoming collections places for a certain political party, in fact did you know that the ACLU was founded by communist?

I believe in Japan their citizens were\are, forced to buy new cars every year. That explains that. I think when it comes to these companies especially European ones; people are willing to pay for quality, no American company has anything close to an Audi, either quality or price wise. Also, Japanese cars, like Honda, were good quality high mileage cars; so they had a part of the market with little competition, from American companies. This, as noted, was a big problem for GM.

I am always looking to see how people think on issues like this. Why, in your opinion do we need the unions now more than ever? What do you view as flawed in what I said about economics?

[rrnut282]

James
Japanese cititzens are not forced to buy a new car every year. The opposite is closer to the truth. A Japanese citizen cannot buy a new vehicle without proof of off-street parking for it. If I got all my taxes back every year, I might be able to swing another car payment. To be forced by my government would be grounds for a revolt.

[Anonymous]

I didn't say I liked the idea. I know they did something like that, I'll just have to go do some reasearch


P.S You've got the right attitude about those taxes.

[MJ4562]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard
As for foreign autos...most of your Toyotas and Hondas are made right here, in Tennessee and Kentucky, and Toyota is building a plant here in Texas.
All built by American auto workers, all paying those extreme union wages.

No! No! No! Toyota and Honda plants are 100% non-union. There is a reason why Honda and Toyota locate their plants in right to work states. They do not pay anywhere close to what GM pays.

I blame GM management for not taking a tougher stance on the unions and allowing them to negotiate sweetheart labor contracts.

The unions need to realize that if they don't give, they will end up with nothing. Without drastic cuts in benefits GM's only viable option is bankruptcy. That will mean those retirees will lose their pensions and their health care (plus numerous other benefits they receive for free). One of the problems with the unions is that the union bosses really don't care about this--they are already set for life. They have more in common with GM management than with their members.

This is an issue for all Americans. Not only will the US economy take a major hit if GM goes under, but we will all have to pay when those former GM pensioners become wards of the state.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

Are the Honda and Toyota plants even unionizedd? I don't realy know but I have heard they are not.

Their plants in Britain most definitely are unionised, and they're also the most efficient in Europe. They also pay the best wages in the car industry here and seem to be doing well.

As Napoleon once said: "No such thing as a bad soldier, only bad officers".

[MJ4562]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

Are the Honda and Toyota plants even unionizedd? I don't realy know but I have heard they are not.

Their plants in Britain most definitely are unionised, and they're also the most efficient in Europe. They also pay the best wages in the car industry here and seem to be doing well.

As Napoleon once said: "No such thing as a bad soldier, only bad officers".

The discussion is referring to plants located in the United States. I'm referring to their US operations. Plants outside the US are not relevant.

[greyhounds]

Just as an aside to the union issue, I flew home for the Thanksgiving weekend on Northwest from Minneapolis.

We all know that the Northwest mechanics are on strike and they had a four person picket line up at the airport. I don't think anyone cared. Everybody else just worked and got me home in fine shape. The airport was very uncrowded, to my suprise, the plane was on time and not full.

Unions have their place, but in the past they have been very unrealistic, especially with the railroads. They can, and should, protect workers from abuse, but they can't turn a $20/hour job into a $30/hour job with a piece of paper.

[Modelcar]

Toyota will soon be building cars in the Subaru plant here in Lafayette, Indiana. About 120,000 per year. As for GM's troubles I believe it is at a very critical stage and for sure, it would not be good for our economy in this country as it may cause some domino effects throughout the auto industry along with effecting so many lives. I also believe there is enough blame on all sides to go around that contributed to the situation GM finds itself in now....I think we all know pretty much what many of them are....I hope somehow people can come together with sensible minds and make the changes necessary to create a GM that can survive and make money...and better vehicles to compete with the world market. I'm not putting down GM as I have owned many of their vehicles...and at present have a Chevy Xtreme as one of my vehicles...and enjoy using it....

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsanchez

Then why are the unionized Japanese plants not being shut down, also American Auto workers earn less than their Japanese and German counterparts. I used to be anti-union until I got a job on class one railroad, believe me unions are needed more than ever.
What kind of pay cuts are the executives taking at GM for making cars the public has little interest in, GM's biggest problem is going to be with consumers under 30 who much prefer Hondas, Suburus and Toyotas and for the most part do not even consider a GM product as an option. It helps to build a product people want and by the way Chrysler is doing well because of doing just that!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Paul,

Businesses have to think of wages as a cost, like steel. A company is not going to over pay for supplies; neither are they going to pay for high wages. Now because of it (and other factors) none of these people have jobs, a lot of good those unions did, and are earning nothing instead. The money to pay people more has to come from somewhere, in this case the price of the car. If you are in such favor of Unions I suggest you always pay the highest price for everything, since odds are that has the most Union people to pay. Raising wages, be it minimum wage, or by unions, is like inflation, it really doesn't get anyone any more money, since the people earn more, but also pay more for goods. Unions had their place historically, but have outlived most of their usefulness, becoming collections places for a certain political party, in fact did you know that the ACLU was founded by communist?

I believe in Japan their citizens were\are, forced to buy new cars every year. That explains that. I think when it comes to these companies especially European ones; people are willing to pay for quality, no American company has anything close to an Audi, either quality or price wise. Also, Japanese cars, like Honda, were good quality high mileage cars; so they had a part of the market with little competition, from American companies. This, as noted, was a big problem for GM.

I am always looking to see how people think on issues like this. Why, in your opinion do we need the unions now more than ever? What do you view as flawed in what I said about economics?

James-

European cars are LESS reliable than American ones. Audis and their VW cousins are not particularly good. Neither are Mercedes. BMWs are only so-so. You could look it up, but I doubt you will. You don't like fact-based discussions.

[TH&B]

I think it realy is the Asian and Japanese makers that threaten the GM, I don't think Europeans are the threat. VW is the only real large vlume European car in the US, we don't get much Fiat or Renault etc, alot of large European companys don't even bother the US exept for "hi end" types the ones you mentioned.

I'm sorry to hear this bad news, if only as a rail fan watching the hi cube parts trains, as far as I know they are mostly GM and Ford.

[Anonymous]

My dad could actually buy a dual turbo-charged. Adui A-6; which he did. Beats the socks off the Ford escort we are currently have. I agree with 440cuin thoughts that Asian automakers are more of the problem; and as also stated, they are not do not have unionized factories. When it comes to most reliable, or best value for you money. Americans cars win out. But almost any Lotus will make dog meat out of any American sports car. I have been presenting most of the facts here.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by APG45

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by 440cuin

Are the Honda and Toyota plants even unionizedd? I don't realy know but I have heard they are not.

Their plants in Britain most definitely are unionised, and they're also the most efficient in Europe. They also pay the best wages in the car industry here and seem to be doing well.

As Napoleon once said: "No such thing as a bad soldier, only bad officers".

The discussion is referring to plants located in the United States. I'm referring to their US operations. Plants outside the US are not relevant.

Arent they? Given the increasingly globally nature of trade, no one is an island any more.

Just as GM seem to have lost the plot in the US,, judging by what other people have said on this thred, so too in Britain and Europe. In the last few years Vauxhall (GM's UK susbisduary) have been rated very poorly in reliability surveys done by the car magazine "Top Gear". By contrast Ford have improved and are now on a par with the Japanese car makers. This seems to tally with what people have been saying about Ford in the US. So there seems to be a pattern emerging.

As for the issue of unions, I think that is a red herring. Have you ever met anyone who's said "I wont be a car made by X cos their unions are a load of commies"?. I haven't but I've met loads of people who wont buy a car if they think it will be unreliable. That's what counts at the end of the day.

[icmr]

See what happend to GM after they sold EMD.



ICMR

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[traintownofcowee]

That sure stinks! I just hope that locomotive development won't be held back either.
There's only one thing left to do...just wait and see...

C U ALL L8TER!!!
[:)][:D][8D][:(][?][:O][8)][|)][:)][:P][;)][X-)][%-)][(-D][swg]

[MJ4562]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Arent they? Given the increasingly globally nature of trade, no one is an island any more.

How many workers do Toyota/Honda/GM have in the UK vs. the USA? I don't know the figures but am willing to bet their UK operations are a drop in the bucket compared to the US. GM is one of the largest (the largest?) private employer in the US.

You're missing the real issue here which is healthcare. In the US health insurance is paid for by individuals not the government. Employers may pay part of that while you are working. If you want to cover your spouse or your children you pay even more. When you retire you pay all of your health insurance/medical costs. The unionized auto workers get all of their (plus their spouses and minor children) insurance paid for by their employer for the rest of their lives. No other group in the US receives such a generous package. (Certainly not Toyota employees!). UAW members also receive free legal representation and numerous other benefits. This is an enormous expense [modest health insurance here costs about $10,000-$20,000 per person per year currently and has been going up about 20% every year]. Making things worse is that they are paying wages 2-3 times what Toyota and Honda are paying in the US.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
As for the issue of unions, I think that is a red herring. Have you ever met anyone who's said "I wont be a car made by X cos their unions are a load of commies"?.

???? Again you are missing the issue. No one ever said that. GM workers are the best in the world. The problem is there are too many of them and they are overpaid. GM could afford to overpay its workers when it dominated the world market. This is a luxury it can no longer afford now that it's facing stiff competition.

GM has excessive production capacity in the form of too many employees and too many factories. GM used to control over 75% of the US market *(and most of the world market) and it now has about 20% of the US market. The obvious response is that if GM built better vehicles it wouldn't have lost market share.
Well the world has changed since the 1950s. The rest of the world has caught up. In today's marketplace no automaker will ever again have that much dominance (20-25% is about the most any automaker can hope for). GM needs to cut its workforce, reduce wages & benefits and close plants to reflect reality.

Unfortunately the unions have fought GM at every turn trying to prevent them from rationalizing their production capacity. They use their enormous political clout to pressure GM from doing what it needs to do to compete effectively.

Consumers don't care about any of this. They want a quality product at a reasonable price. Although there are some variations, automobiles are commodities. There is a set price range for each class of vehicle regardless of perceived quality. That means manufacturers have to manage their costs. If you pay too much for materials or labor, you can't spend as much on product improvement. This is the problem GM is having. It spends too much on labor and so it can't afford to spend as much as Toyota on product improvement.



*GM by itself used to account for about 2% of US GNP. An incredible figure for any private company.

[MJ4562]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
In the last few years Vauxhall (GM's UK susbisduary) have been rated very poorly in reliability surveys done by the car magazine "Top Gear". By contrast Ford have improved and are now on a par with the Japanese car makers. This seems to tally with what people have been saying about Ford in the US. So there seems to be a pattern emerging.

The only thing Ford or GM about those vehicles is the name of the holding company. Those subsidiaries operate autonomously and have little or nothing in common with the US subsidiaries.

In the US Ford makes the worst vehicles in terms of quality. Some GM vehicles are as good as Toyota and Honda, many are slightly behind. GM has a lot of different models and needs to drop many of them and concentrate on their best ones.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the other posters on page 6 in terms of quality and the need to move forward. It's time to stop pointing fingers and work out a solution.

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by icmr

See what happend to GM after they sold EMD.

IMO it's just as well for both that GM sold EMD. GM realized that it was becoming more and more difficult to provide the ongoing investment that EMD required, a distraction from its core operations. After all EMD is competing with GE, one of the great money machines that has ever existed. Starved of sufficient investment funds, EMD would have been a declining asset.

[Modelcar]

..GM simply has too much cost per manufactured vehicle compared to it's competition.
It simply must take out some of the cost to become competitive again.
Lotus....Regarding sports cars: Better bone up on the "facts" re: 2006 Chevrolet Corvette C6...It can compete with just about anyone in the world market for performance....
Another "fact" is quality and reliability....Look to the Japanese...especially Lexus.
US car makers have made great strides in quality in the past decade but still cars like Lexus have an edge......
GM had roughly in the high 50's US market percentage about 1960 and now have about 25 % of the US market.
GM MUST shed costs and revamp some of their product to bring in the buying public in order to survive.....It must be done soon or it may be too late.
I surely hope it will be successfully done and get on the road to recovery....A GM failure will bode not well for the car industry in this country....Ford is not very far behind GM in similar trouble.....and they have had some quality problems lately too....
Health car costs are a massive problem to all US manufactures.
I will root for GM as I've said in an earlier post I am a GM vehicle owner so I want them to survive and do well.....

[edbenton]

The real probelm is our companys are playing against a stacked deck in every other industrialized nation health care is paid for by the goverment!! Clinton tried to get passed in 1993 and everybody crucified him for it. In Japan the goverment pays for healthcare and that alone saves the Japaneese companies 1000 bucks in legacey costs per car. In our country it is the have and have nots when it comes to health care. Remove GM's health care costs and the last 3 quarters NA operations was profitable.

[Modelcar]

....But removing the health care costs is not a simple and easy problem to cure.....
I hope a solution can be found and soon...as it is now a more than serious problem.

[edbenton]

How about limiting malpractice awards and also disbarring any atty that says I can get you money if you took xyz medication.

[Modelcar]

...The "cure" will of course require drastic cost cutting but on this one....they will have to do more than cut costs to turn it around...They must revive product to the point that buyers will want to get into the showrooms to see what is the latest and newest from GM and have enough that those buyers will want to pruchase one....

[Anonymous]

A lot of it is a money hungry union. Our new car is a Toyota because of the better gas milage for a comparable car from GM. The difference was about 20% better for the Toyota and with price of gas it makes a big difference. I agree that the union people make TOO much money per hour for a blue collar job and have to pay NO health benefits. That is not going to work in todays world. Now on GM's part. They have to start making cars which beat the foreign cars in milage, and DON'T tell me the technology is not out there because if you do there are a couple of bridges I will sell you REAL CHEAP. We also have a Saturn and love it. If the Saturn had comparble gas milage we would have bought one. The Saturns' gas milage was 28/24 compared to the Toyots' 40/35. I rest my case.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by APG45
In the US Ford makes the worst vehicles in terms of quality. Some GM vehicles are as good as Toyota and Honda, many are slightly behind.

Is this your "professional" opinion, or do you have any facts to support your claim?

I have had 'car quality' discussions with many people about cars over the years, and I know that each person has their own opinion on vehicles, which seems to be based on actual experience with a particular brand.

I know people that swear by Jeeps, whereas the Jeeps I've owned needed so many repairs by 120K miles, that after two such vehicles, I swore to never buy another one.

I've seen GM vehicles with well over 300K miles, and they were still functioning.

Some folks say that though their Chrysler products were nice when they bought them, they seemed to fall apart near about 100K miles.

Lots of people do not like Fords, but the two Explorers I've owned I sold at about 180K miles, and I sold them just because I wanted something newer, not because they were having problems. The 03 Ranger I own now has 75K miles on it, and I have had ZERO problems so far. None! (knock on wood)

Bottom line is, I feel, that each company can make a good vehicle, and can also make a crappy vehicle. Luck of the draw, I guess.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Zardos, Rangers are made here in the Northland.

Last week in the wake of GM's plant closing announcement, the subject of closing Ford's St Paul plant came up in the local news. This isn't the first time there has been talk, but people are really worried that it might actually happen this time. I think they said the plant has been in operation for 86 years.

If this happens, CP and UP stand to lose a lot of business in the area. CP's tracks go right into the plant. UP started that Triple Crown service with NS, with Ford as a cornerstone customer.

I plan to represent the Ford plant on my model railroad. Better get the camera fired up.

Sure is pleasantly quiet around here all of a sudden. Wonder why. [swg]