GM closing nine plants

[CrazyDiamond]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Look at what happened to Albertson#8217;s, or HP, I won#8217;t ever buy another piece of HP equipment.

At the risk of getting this wrong....do you mean HP the computer company? Hewlett Packard?

[Anonymous]

Yep, I do. We have a Color LaserJet office printer. It is a lemon, it works about half the time. HP used to be a very innovative company but one of the CEOs (can't quite remember the name) ruined their reputation, for me at least.

[vsmith]

OMG Im going to AGREE with James on something..HP's SUCK.

Just wait till you try to get that thing fixed, I'll tell ecactly what will happen, they wont!
My HP6110 all-in-one stopped, took it to a guy who said its an internal software problem, called HP who told me they dont repair them, they will only replace them if they are still under warrenty ( whats that like 90 days? ) otherwise you can arrainge what they call a " trade in or trade up" which is a fancy way of saying I'm going to have to pay for a big chunk of the replacment costs. SHEEEE-IIIIIT !!! They build a crap product that last until the warrenty is long gone, then ***s outs and i get hit with the big bite.

Now I dont know whether to take the replacement the POS or just lick my wounds and get something else. Of course , the whole world is make of crap now and I have no guarentee any other printer isnt a POS either.


As for GM, All I can offer is a couple observations. Have you looked at there lineup? How many big SUVs and big trucks in the offering? Combine that with last summers $3 a gallon gas and higher prices predicted next year, an what Ed said above, is it any wonder the company sales are tanking and the copmpany is in serious financial trouble?

GM hasnt been able to adapt, and that is what is going to do the most damage is its inability to evolve like Ford and Chrysler have to new market demands. there entire philosophy has been predicated on cheaap gas prices and those days are gone likely forever unless we find oil on the Moon. I've avoided them like the plague, other than the 72 Chevy Nova I drove into the ground in college, I havent heard anything positive from anyone I've known thats owned one. Its not about poorly made American products, Nissan, Toyota, Honda all have plants here and in Canada, its about a companies overall manufacturing and managment process that is severly flawed. PS my current Nissan truck was built here is the USA and it runs great.

[Anonymous]

There are 2.3 retirees drawing benefits for every 1 GM worker. That should tell you something.

That would also tell you that GM's plans for massive layoffs isn't going to change that 2.3 to 1 ratio. GM is not tackling the legacy problem, instead it seems they're just trying to placate Wall Street in the interim.

Maybe they think the feds will bail out the legacy liabilities.

[Junctionfan]

If I'm not mistaken, G.M stocks are near junk status on one of the exchanges.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

There are 2.3 retirees drawing benefits for every 1 GM worker. That should tell you something.

That would also tell you that GM's plans for massive layoffs isn't going to change that 2.3 to 1 ratio. GM is not tackling the legacy problem, instead it seems they're just trying to placate Wall Street in the interim.

Maybe they think the feds will bail out the legacy liabilities.

Holy [censored] ! the Sky is Falling! I'm Agreeing with FM also![;)]

I'll bet you $5 thats exactly what they and a couple of airlines are planning to do, probably soon too.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Gee Vic, now I guess we're going to have to shoot you.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Big Boy, you have gotta post pics of guns and stupid tough guy quotes before you shoot him...........

[eastside]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Yep, I do. We have a Color LaserJet office printer. It is a lemon, it works about half the time. HP used to be a very innovative company but one of the CEOs (can't quite remember the name) ruined their reputation, for me at least.

Do you mean Carleton S. Fiorina, better known as Carly Fiorina? She was the chief architect of the misconceived merger with Compaq, among other things, which eventually led to her downfall.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eastside

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Yep, I do. We have a Color LaserJet office printer. It is a lemon, it works about half the time. HP used to be a very innovative company but one of the CEOs (can't quite remember the name) ruined their reputation, for me at least.

Do you mean Carleton S. Fiorina, better known as Carly Fiorina? She was the chief architect of the misconceived merger with Compaq, among other things, which eventually led to her downfall.

That sounds right.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Gee Vic, now I guess we're going to have to shoot you.[swg]

Being a Blue-backer it kinda gives the old axiom "better dead than Red" a whole new twist doesn't it[;)][:D]

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

If I'm not mistaken, G.M stocks are near junk status on one of the exchanges.

It's bonds that are "Junk Status", not stocks. Bonds!

GM unfortunately now is in the same situation the railroads were 25 years ago.

It's got to shed capacity to keep up with its loss of market share. It ain't pretty. It's do that or die.

There is/was no way in The Devil's Kingdom that GM was going to keep its market share - they sure would have if they could have. I'm just glad Janesville didn't get the ax.

[richardy]

I had one GM car, the paint started peeling off after six months. They painted it and it peeled off again, they painted it two more times then told me there was nothing they could do. I had owned Fords before and have owned nothing but Fords since.

On another note GM is offering, again, 0% for 60 months on Chevrolets, have not heard if that is extended to other GM lines.

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds


There is/was no way in The Devil's Kingdom that GM was going to keep its market share - they sure would have if they could have. I'm just glad Janesville didn't get the ax.

Headline in tonight's Janesville paper "WHEW!"

Many GM employees employees commute from here, so a closing of that plant would have had an impact well beyond the Janesville city limits.

[eastside]

Oh yeah, a couple of other things come to mind:

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

If I'm not mistaken, G.M stocks are near junk status on one of the exchanges.

It's GM's debt that has junk status, not its equity.

1. What's the jewel in the crown for GM? Chevy? Cadillac? EMD? (Oops, forget that one.) No, it's GMAC, GM's financing arm, which will earn approximately $3 billion this year. (Which will be more than wiped out by the expected $4.9 billion loss from GM's North American auto-selling unit.) Not only does GMAC make tons of money financing cars, but they also make a lot from mortgages. (BTW, Ditech is their mortgage arm). What does this have to do with GM's junk rating? Well when you buy a car from GM and finance it through GMAC, GMAC has to go to the capital markets and borrow the money to send to GM in payment. Of course, the people loaning the money to GMAC are no dummies. If GM bites the dust so will GMAC. As a result of GM's problems, GMAC essentially has the same junk rating as GM. That means they pay the same rates as GM would pay. As of the end of '04 GMAC had a balance of $88 billion of short term debt. My guess is that they pay at least $900 million more in interest than Toyota, for example, would pay for the same amount. Another problem is that most investment funds are barred from buying non-investment grade instruments (junk bonds), thus raising GM's interest costs that much more. The obvious answer would be to sell its interest in GMAC so that it would have an independent credit rating, undoubtedly investment grade. The problem with that is that it would a huge loss of face and a loss of a part of the company that has great growth potential. Worse, it wouldn't benefit the stockholders because the unions would likely insist that it be applied to funding GM's pensions.

2. Give some credit to GM's execs for selling EMD when they did. If they tried to sell it now, it would be going for a fire sale price.

[andrewjonathon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Same unions work at Ford and Chrysler, and those two are not in the toilet...
As for foreign autos...most of your Toyotas and Hondas are made right here, in Tennessee and Kentucky, and Toyota is building a plant here in Texas.
All built by American auto workers, all paying those extreme union wages.

Ford and Chrysler both took a look at what they would be paying out in retirement, benefits and such well over a decade ago, and decided to buy out who they could right then, and replace them with robotics and automated manufactures, then streamlined how they build cars, introduced new designs, and instituted quality controls that makes GM’s look so shabby by comparison.

So, two of the big three paid attention when they should have, one of them decided that business as usual was the way to go...
Daimler Chrysler is blowing GM away, Ford Trucks out sell GM...Go figure whose management teams were on the ball and looked ahead, and whose were more worried about their green fees than their business...

I am surprised anyone would point to Ford and Chyrsler as examples of automobile manufactuers who have "got it together".

While Ford's problems may not be as deep as GMs, they certainly still have a lot of their own house cleaning to do. Ford's North American operations lost $1 billion dollars in just the third quarter this year alone. You don't have to search too on the internet to find expert predictions of Ford's own bankrupcty.

As for Chysler, recently their new products may be reflecting the benefits of their merger with Mercedes. However, it is safe to say the marriage with Chrysler has not had the same positive effect on Mercedes. Ever since the marriage, with the company's focus on improving Chrysler, the reputation of the Mercedes cars division has taken a hit, especially in their reputation for reliability. Recently, the combined value of Mercedes and Chrylser slipped below the value of just Mercedes before the merger. I doubt that wasn't a by-product of the merger the shareholders were looking for.

[Anonymous]

Give some credit to GM's execs for selling EMD when they did. If they tried to sell it now, it would be going for a fire sale price.

Which makes one ask the question, was EMD doing that badly? I thought EMD was one of the few divisions of GM doing fair to middlin well. I figured EMD got sold to private owners simply to allow GM to focus closer on automobile and truck production.

I'm not particualrly worried about GM going away... anyone remember the billion dollar loan guarantee Chrysler got in the late seventies? Also, remember, "whatever is good for GM is good for the United States"...

Erik

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

There are 2.3 retirees drawing benefits for every 1 GM worker. That should tell you something.

That would also tell you that GM's plans for massive layoffs isn't going to change that 2.3 to 1 ratio. GM is not tackling the legacy problem, instead it seems they're just trying to placate Wall Street in the interim.

Maybe they think the feds will bail out the legacy liabilities.

Refering to the article link in the first entry and applying a bit of math:

More retirees (early retirements AGAIN) plus less active employees (downsizing) equals a change in the 2.3 to 1 ratio.

And NOT for the better.

Shortsighted management thinking is just making the matter worse.

[AntonioFP45]

Eric,

That was GM's credo for years.....however the situation has changed drastically. At one time GM was viewed as "The American Machine", jst as in railroad circles, Pennsy's Altoona Shop was the top railroad facility in North America at one time. Altoona and GM are now former shadows of their pasts. [V]

Just my 2 cents. [2c]
I was a loyal GM user for years (and former hot-rodder). However, after repeatedly hearing and reading scores of complaints about quality back in the 80s and 90s, I'm one of those "yahoos" [:o)] that went Toyota. Haven't looked back since. Seems like this is what has happened with thousands of other customers that GM lost as well.

I still remember a friend of mine with a new 1987 IROC Z28 having to order a new rear end for his car.

During the 90s my late father-in-law purchased / traded brand new fully loaded Yukons and a Tahoe within a 5 year period. $30,000 average each! Regrettably, he blew his paltry retirement on these things, died, left his widow in debt. What a waste! No offense to you SUV owners, but man did those things drink gas!! [:0]

His first Yukon had a very noisy rear end that, after 3 trips to the dealership, could not be fixed. Traded it in. The 2nd Yukon was a fuel and electronic system nightmare. Traded it in. His 3rd SUV, a Tahoe, fared better but he could no longer afford to drive it. When I bought my 4 cylinder 1999 Camry new, which we still drive, he asked me then why I didn't buy an GM SUV?! I loved that old guy, but I had to hold back from choking him! [:p]

I did go to a Chevy dealership to purchase a new car for my wife. The salesman treated me like dirt., I guess since I was wearing a T-shirt, jeans and sneakers. [B)][V]That was the icing on the cake. Bye-bye GM. [tdn][sigh]

I understand that GM has greatly increased quality.
Problem: Once you "burn" a customer you're going to have an exceptionally hard time getting him, or her back. Now, add family, friends, and co-workers that the customer comes in contact with! A few years back,upon my recommendation my mother, sister, and wife all purchased Toyotas. That's about $60,000+ in sales that could have gone to a GM dealer! Being middle to lower income, our priorities were to get a balance of BOTH Safety and Gas Mileage. It made me laugh when "status concious" relatives continued to suggest that we get SUVs. Now, I'm so glad that we didn't listen to them. Only idiots keep up with the Jonses. [D)][D)] I'd be livid now if I had to spend $80 to $100 to gas up the family vehicle, like they do.

As for blaming the unions and/or management? Both sides have greatly contributed to the problems, with management being the more significant contributor. There have been countless articles documented where well educated union and non-union workers binded together to provide upper management teams with viable solutions to fix GM's problems. Much of the advice went unheeded.

A leaner, more efficient GM will eventually emerge. I doubt GM will dissappear. Wold not surprise me if eventually there was a merger or consolidation with another major auto maker.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

There are 2.3 retirees drawing benefits for every 1 GM worker. That should tell you something.

That would also tell you that GM's plans for massive layoffs isn't going to change that 2.3 to 1 ratio. GM is not tackling the legacy problem, instead it seems they're just trying to placate Wall Street in the interim.

Maybe they think the feds will bail out the legacy liabilities.

Refering to the article link in the first entry and applying a bit of math:

More retirees (early retirements AGAIN) plus less active employees (downsizing) equals a change in the 2.3 to 1 ratio.

And NOT for the better.

Shortsighted management thinking is just making the matter worse.

According to a report on CNBC, GM went from around 40% market share in the 70s to the 20% range today. Automation is also a factor as less workers are needed to build a car. Chrysler's market share over the same period has stayed roughly the same and in recent years they've actually gained some at GM's expense. The plant closings are supposed to bring production capacity down to what they actually expect to sell. The employee discount program moved a lot of cars, but they lost a lot of money doing that.

Gaining back market share won't be easy and IMO part of GM's problems are structural and related to the shrinking middle class. They've traditionally marketed and sold the more profitable cars largely to middle class buyers, in many cases those same union workers. Wealthy individuals tend to buy a Mercedes, Lexus, or Jaguar. Poorer foks buy imports or the smaller U.S. cars which have very small profit margins due to the legacy costs. Building trades workers buy the more profitable trucks but tend to keep them for a long time. Ford bought Jaguar and Volvo to go up-market and increase their European sales which were aleady significant. GM is trying to up-market Cadillac and according to CNBC they plan to open more plants in South Korea and China.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

The current Union contract was negotiated over a decade ago...its not like the Unions got up last week and said we demand this and this...
Place the blame exactly where it belongs...GM Management made bad decisions, produced a so-so product, sat on their fannys as their US competition made big changes in the type of car they built, and how they go about building them.

GM knew years ago how much it would be paying out in all those “union” perks and such….its not like they don’t have accountants and such.

Same unions work at Ford and Chrysler, and those two are not in the toilet...
As for foreign autos...most of your Toyotas and Hondas are made right here, in Tennessee and Kentucky, and Toyota is building a plant here in Texas.
All built by American auto workers, all paying those extreme union wages.

Ford and Chrysler both took a look at what they would be paying out in retirement, benefits and such well over a decade ago, and decided to buy out who they could right then, and replace them with robotics and automated manufactures, then streamlined how they build cars, introduced new designs, and instituted quality controls that makes GM’s look so shabby by comparison.

Honda and Toyota, Nissan, most of the established "foreign" makers also got their quality control way better than GM over a decade ago...my neighbor is still driving his 1975 Datsun B1500 pick up…well over 300 thousand miles on it.

So, two of the big three paid attention when they should have, one of them decided that business as usual was the way to go...
Daimler Chrysler is blowing GM away, Ford Trucks out sell GM...Go figure whose management teams were on the ball and looked ahead, and whose were more worried about their green fees than their business...

I mean, my god, who in their right mind would buy Fiat?

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

I told you that if Unions keep trying to get higher wages and benifits people would lose their jobs. Sad [sigh]

Ford and Chrysler may not be as bad off as GM, but they are not exactly a picture of health, themselves.

GM's troubles, like that of big steel 20 years ago, were a team effort. It took the company and the unions, working together, to let things get this bad.

Both are living in the past.

GM still thinks the market share game is won on the production side. If they think they should have a 33% market share, then they plan to build that many cars and trucks, regardless if there are any buyers out there.

The UAW still think the whole game is wages and benefits. But, what really drives wages and benefits in this day and age is employee value. If an employee can get more money and benes across the street, the the company will have to offer up something competitive to get them to stay. The only way to get this to happen is with education and training. The UAW ought to be bargining for continuing education, education sabaticals and tuition aid as the path to higher wages. Employee value drives higher wages, not staring someone down across a table at the local Marriot.

It is not reasonable to think that an assembly line job aquired at age 18 will be there for 50+ years. There are almost no jobs like that anymore. The world & technology are changing too fast. Maybe an assembly line job should be thought of as a stepping stone to the next job.

[spbed]

The point is the plants are being closed cause they are not making enuf sales to keep it open so there will be no shifting of biz from the closed plants to some other open plant since GM admitted they do not have the biz. [:(].

Originally posted by oltmannd
[

Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR  Austin TX Sub

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