Canadian Railways Operations

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

I am not sure if CN's former Illinois Central, the DM&IR and Wisconsin Central are part of GTC.

Grand Trunk Corporation exists as the US holding company for CN's US lines. Within this holding company are 5 subsidiaries, Illinois Central, Grand Trunk Western, Wisconsin Central, Duluth Missabe & Iron Range, And Bessemer & Lake Erie. CN must have a separate US subsidiary for its US lines for Tax and STB purposes. I am not sure what has happened to the M&M but I do know that it doesn't have any Operating Department employees all train crews are Canadians.

CP is a similar situation, its holding company is the Soo Line Corporation, which has 2 subsidiaries, the Soo Line Railroad, and the Delaware & Hudson Railroad.

So if anybody asks how many Class I railroads there are in the US, the correct answer is
seven. UP, BNSF, NS, CSX, KCS, GTC, and SLC.

Thanks. That was interesting. [:)] I didn't know about the SLC either.[D)]

[morseman]

an interesting fallen flag ry was the Ottawa-Arnprior-Parry sound Ry.built by lumber baron,
J.R.Booth in the late 1800's. It went thru Ontario's Algonquin Provincial Park, with
a large roundhouse at Madawaska. (believe had stalls for about 15 iron horses.
The round house was torn down in 1994.

An interesting web site on Eastern Ontario railways from 1847-2005 is
http://www.railways.incanada.net/candate/ottawa.htm
This site lists many fallen flags and many railway milestones in
eastern Ontario.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

I am not sure if CN's former Illinois Central, the DM&IR and Wisconsin Central are part of GTC.

Grand Trunk Corporation exists as the US holding company for CN's US lines. Within this holding company are 5 subsidiaries, Illinois Central, Grand Trunk Western, Wisconsin Central, Duluth Missabe & Iron Range, And Bessemer & Lake Erie. CN must have a separate US subsidiary for its US lines for Tax and STB purposes. I am not sure what has happened to the M&M but I do know that it doesn't have any Operating Department employees all train crews are Canadians.

CP is a similar situation, its holding company is the Soo Line Corporation, which has 2 subsidiaries, the Soo Line Railroad, and the Delaware & Hudson Railroad.

So if anybody asks how many Class I railroads there are in the US, the correct answer is
seven. UP, BNSF, NS, CSX, KCS, GTC, and SLC.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Many (Real) Canadians still say eh ! ! it's the equivalent of U.S. ("huh!!) the younger generation here speak U.S. television advertising English and will in the next generation speak only ''American" It's not "aye" it's eh, like the letter A. ----- And by the way, it's "Railway" in Canada, not Railroad, there is a big difference in the two.

I fixed the spelling in my post after nanaimo73 corrected me....eh! What is the difference between "railroad" and "railway"?

[tatans]

Many (Real) Canadians still say eh ! ! it's the equivalent of U.S. ("huh!!) the younger generation here speak U.S. television advertising English and will in the next generation speak only ''American" It's not "aye" it's eh, like the letter A. ----- And by the way, it's "Railway" in Canada, not Railroad, there is a big difference in the two.

[Murphy Siding]

Dale: your posts to to emphasize how little most of us *down here* know about Canadian railroads.[*^_^*]. I know that CN is bigger than CP, but after that, who's next as far as size?

Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

There is no Grand Trunk in Canada? Only in the US?

[nanaimo73]

I was talking (posting ?) about the legal ownership. I believe all of CN's US lines would fall under the Grand Trunk Corporation, which is owned by CN.
It is not something that I've been paying attention to.
Anyone out there know what the ownership is now ?



Maps of Canada-

http://www.proximityissues.ca/english/maps1.cfm  

http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/  

http://www.niagararails.com/maps.shtml  

http://www.trainscan.com/data/maps.html  

http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/maps/archives/3rdedition/economic/transportationandcommunications/083  

http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/atlas/intro.aspx?lang=En  

http://www.mapquest.com/  

http://www.railroaddata.com/cgi-bin/links/search.cgi?query=canada&mh=25&type=keyword&bool=and  

http://maps.google.com/

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Thanks Bud.
Perhaps "almost no nonsense" would be more accurate.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale: thanks for a *brief* look at Canadian fallen flags. I didn't see mention of Grand Trunk (Western), is it now fully absorbed into CP or CN?

Murphy,
I was just looking at lines in Canada that disappeared in the last 50 years. None of the 4 or 5 Grand Trunks fit thay category.
The first Grand Trunk was our first big system, and it probably had about 2,000 miles of track in Quebec and Ontario. It also reached Portland, Maine and Chicago. It was British owned and today forms the eastern heart of CN.
The federal government around 1905 (?) talked the GT into building to the west coast to compete with the CPR. This was the Grand Trunk Pacific, and reached from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert. The goverment built a line from the east coast (Moncton) to Winnipeg to connect the two Grand Trunks. This was the National Transcontenential Railway. The GTP went bankrupt, which dragged the Grand Trunk into bankruptcy as well. Both the GT and the GTW became part of CN around 1922.
The Grand Trunk Corporation was, and probably still is, the name for all of CN's lines in the USA.
The biggest of these was the Grand Trunk Western, which was mostly in Michigan, and reached Chicago through Indiana, and also reached Milwaukee by barge. GTW bought the DT&I and the D&TSL to reach Toledo and Cincinnati.
GTC also owned the Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific, the Central Vermont and the Minnesota and Manitoba Railroad.
The lines to Massena, New York, and Portland, Maine would have been Grand Trunk.
Grand Trunk Corporation almost bought the Milwaukee Road during 1982.
I am not sure if CN's former Illinois Central, the DM&IR and Wisconsin Central are part of GTC.

You're saying that GTW is still alive and well? I thought it disappeared into CN like WC, IC, and DMIR?

[nanaimo73]

Thanks Bud.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale: thanks for a *brief* look at Canadian fallen flags. I didn't see mention of Grand Trunk (Western), is it now fully absorbed into CP or CN?

Murphy,
I was just looking at lines in Canada that disappeared in the last 50 years. None of the 4 or 5 Grand Trunks fit thay category.
The first Grand Trunk was our first big system, and it probably had about 2,000 miles of track in Quebec and Ontario. It also reached Portland, Maine and Chicago. It was British owned and today forms the eastern heart of CN.
The federal government around 1905 (?) talked the GT into building to the west coast to compete with the CPR. This was the Grand Trunk Pacific, and reached from Winnipeg to Prince Rupert. The goverment built a line from the east coast (Moncton) to Winnipeg to connect the two Grand Trunks. This was the National Transcontenential Railway. The GTP went bankrupt, which dragged the Grand Trunk into bankruptcy as well. Both the GT and the GTW became part of CN around 1922.
The Grand Trunk Corporation was, and probably still is, the name for all of CN's lines in the USA.
The biggest of these was the Grand Trunk Western, which was mostly in Michigan, and reached Chicago through Indiana, and also reached Milwaukee by barge. GTW bought the DT&I and the D&TSL to reach Toledo and Cincinnati.
GTC also owned the Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific, the Central Vermont and the Minnesota and Manitoba Railroad.
The lines to Massena, New York, and Portland, Maine would have been Grand Trunk.
Grand Trunk Corporation almost bought the Milwaukee Road during 1982.
I am not sure if CN's former Illinois Central, the DM&IR and Wisconsin Central are part of GTC.

[Murphy Siding]

Dale: thanks for a *brief* look at Canadian fallen flags. I didn't see mention of Grand Trunk (Western), is it now fully absorbed into CP or CN?

[BudKarr]

I would just like to say that the effort put forth by "nanaimo73" surely has to be one of the benefits from frequenting forums such as this one on "trains." No nonsense, no immaturity and certainly no "run for the numbers count." The people at Kalmbach hopefully recognize this type of excellence.

Kudos to you, Sir! A well done and well thought out submission that should either be copied into print form or bookmarked for those who follow the subject matter.

BK

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Today, I saw a BC Rail car here in town. BC Rail would definitely qualify as a fallen flag. Like most Americans, I picture Canada as only having two railroads,CN and CP. What can you guys up north tell us about other Canadian railroads, and Canadian fallen flags?

This is an interesting thread. It is great to read the thoughts of Forum members from all across Canada.

I got my 1955 Atlas out to see what has changed. Canada’s westernmost Railway has always been the White Pass and Yukon. This former 110 mile 3’ Railway was built between 1898 and 1900. The mine at Faro, the Railway’s largest shipper, closed in 1982 forcing the closure of the Railway. The WP&Y has been revived as a summer tourist railway, but operates mostly in Alaska.
Website-
http://www.whitepassfan.net/whitepass/home/html/index.php  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=469  

Here on Vancouver Island was the 200 mile Esquimalt and Nanaimo Division of the Canadian Pacific. The E&N became part of the CPR during 1905, and was the first Division of the CPR to be completely dieselized in 1948.This was accomplished with a fleet of 13 Baldwin DRS 4-4-100 road switchers. The E&N was sold to Railamerica back in the 1990s. A couple of years ago the Pulp and Paper mill over in Port Alberni switched to trucks making the new E&N uneconomic. At this time plans are under way for a consortium of local governments to purchase the line. Via Rail’s Dayliner continues to make a daily round trip over the 140 mile line between Victoria and Courtenay.
http://yardlimit.railfan.net/baldwindiesels/by-map/canada.html  
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/Various/earlydiesels2.htm  
http://www.railamerica.com/railmaps/ENRR.htm  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=162057  

The British Columbia Electric Company operated an extensive interurban-style railway in the Vancouver area, which became the B.C. Hydro Railway. This Railway has been sold off and is now the Southern Railway of British Columbia, owned by the Washington Corporation (Montana Rail Link).
http://www.sryraillink.com/  
http://www.trainweb.org/rosters/SRY.html  

The Great Northern Railway also operated into Vancouver and had other lines in British Columbia and Manitoba.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=144982  

Canada’s best known fallen flag has got to be the British Columbia Railway, which is now part of Canadian National. Before 1972 this was the Pacific Great Eastern.
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/BCR.htm  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=BCOL  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=PGE  
http://www.theexplorationplace.com/pge.shtml  

Next door in the Province of Alberta was the Northern Alberta Railway. As previously mentioned, it was owned jointly by the CPR and the CNR for many years. On January 1st, 1981 it was merged into Canadian National. I am one of the few people to ride a NAR passenger train into Vancouver. Well, not really, but I like to say that. During December of 1988 I rode Via’s Continental from Winnipeg to Vancouver. One of our locomotives was ailing, so a CN GP9 was placed on the front. This was a former NAR unit still in NAR paint.
Some of the former NAR tract is now operated by Railnet.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=162779  

Two other fallen flags in Alberta would be the Great Slave Lake Railway and the Alberta Resources Railway. Both were built by governments to open up northern areas for development. Both were operated by CN and were not independant railroads.
http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Chapters-13-1/  
http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Chapters-13-2/  

Next is the Province of Manitoba, which includes the important rail center of Winnipeg. Manitoba’s fallen flags are the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific. Both of these American railways had lines up to Winnipeg and to the west in wheat country. The Greater Winnipeg Water District Railway operates about 90 miles of line running east from Winnipeg.
http://www.winnipeg.ca/waterandwaste/dept/railway.stm  
http://alcoworld.railfan.net/gwwd.htm  

The 5th Province over is Ontario.The Algoma Central is one of Ontario’s fallen flags, and had one of my favorite paint schemes.
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/algoma1.htm  

A bit further east is the Ontario Northland, which was almost sold to Canadian National. I would not be surprised if it does become part of CN in the future.
http://www.ontc.on.ca/english/index.html  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=161887  

The southern part of Ontario had several American lines which are now fallen flags. The Pere Marquette became part of the C&O which became part of the Chessie System. The Wabash also had a line across southern Ontario which became the N&W. Another line was the Michigan Central, New York Central, Penn Central and then Conrail. The already mentioned Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo added to the diversity in the land of Andrew, AKA Junctionfan.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=THB  
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/wentworth/thb.htm  

The next Province is Quebec. The New York Central and the Delaware and Hudson both operated into the City of Montréal. A fallen flag in this area is the Montreal and Southern Counties.
http://www.trainweb.org/elso/msc.htm  

A bit further to the east was the Quebec Central, another CPR subsidiary. CP abandoned the QC several years ago, but it is slowly being resurrected.
http://www.rinbad.demon.co.uk/ca_qcr.htm  
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=162235  

Northern Quebec has the Roberval and Saguenay, and had the Alma and Jonquieres.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/shortlines/RS.htm  

Straddling the Quebec-New Brunswick border was the Temiscouata Railway, which was taken over by Canadian National in 1950.
http://www.theboykos.com/railhistory/temi/

Two American fallen flags, the Maine Central and the Bangor and Aroostook, crossed into New Brunswick from Maine.

Prince Edward Island had a network of track which was operated by Canadian National. The light rail on the Island limited power to 70 toners, the only GE’s I like.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/Various/earlydiesels2.htm  

The Province of Nova Scotia had a few railways serving coal mines. One of these was the Sydney and Louisburg Railway, later known as the Devco Railway.
http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/historic/s_l.html  

There was also the Cumberland Coal Company and the nearby Maritime Coal Railway.
http://www.littletechshoppe.com/ns1625/railways.html  

The best known fallen flag in Nova Scotia would be the Dominion Atlantic, which was leased to the CPR.
http://www.trainweb.org/canadianrailways/articles/DominionAtlanticRailway.html  

The Province of Newfoundland was crossed by the narrow gauge Newfoundland Railway. It was operated by the CNR after Newfoundland became part of Canada in 1949. CN turned it into a semi independent subsidiary in later years, under the name Terra Transport.
http://home.thezone.net/~sharvey/nfrail.htm  
http://www.heritage.nf.ca/society/railway.html

[BR60103]

How much for autographed and in the canvas bag? My wife bought it for Christmas a few years ago.
I better get it insured.

[Murphy Siding]

morseman: You might have a family heirloom there. Three used book websites list the used price as $1599.99, $1600, and $1760. All I can do is laugh![(-D] Be sure to put that book in the safe at night![:)]

[morseman]

TO: TRAINBOY

just reading again the price you were quoted for this book
$1600/ for a second hand book. It's a great book
but I'd say that price is out of line. I wouldn't sell mine
as it was a gift from my son try calling the numbers
I mentioned for a new copy from the publishers or continue
looking elsewhere.

[morseman]

Gee, I'm sorry to all of you for all the minutia I gave about this book.
just a few more items I missed 227 pages Loads of black &
white photos. An example of the maps (plates is for the province
of Quebec 1) southern Quebec to 1863, 2) southern Quebec
to 1882 3) southern Quebec to 1897 4 southern Quebec
to 1917 5) southern Quebec to 1992 6 northwestern
Quebec to 1992
Beginning of book gives detailed history of such things as
railway construction, namely: track, route survey, subgrade,
structurerail, ties,ballast, fasteningsswitches and crossings,
special type of track, curved track, non standard gauge,
freight and passenger yards, electric ry. track, construction
techniques, maintenance, track standards


similar items give a comprehensive detail of buildings,
signals, bridges, ferries, tunnels.

Doubt if I'd pay $1600. for this book (couldn't afford it.)
But I wouldn't sell my copy for that amount.

I hope they come up with an update every ten years of so.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman

LINES OF COUNTRY: An Atlas of Railway and Waterway
History in Canada.
Well bound hard cover 12"x16" {rinterd by The Boston Mills Press
Author: Christopher Andreae
Cartography: Geoffrey Matthews
Design: Mark Fram
Copyright 1997
Distributed in the U.S.A. by General Distribution Services Inc.
85 River rock Drive, Suite 202, Buffalo, NY. 14207
Toll Free 1-800-895-1083 Fax [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]
Cost $75 U>S>
Don't know what price is in Canada (around $95.00
my son gave this great volume to me at Christmas
and of course inked out the Cdn. price
If yIf you are looking for Canadian fallen flags, this is the
book Even shows some interesting industrieal
lines etc. such as the St.Jean Dieu line from the StLawrence
River in Montreal to the StJean Dieu mental hospital
and also a picture of the St,Vincent sw Paul Penitentiary
near Montreal with a picture of prisoners chained to
a car transporting them to a rock quary.

Maps are shown by provinces from the inception to 1997
with four or five maps per Province. Rail lines are indicated
by numbers, and you have to look up the index at the rear to
trace the fallen flags etc. Maps also of major Cdn. Cities.

Also listed are waterways and streetcar lines.

A definite must for anyone interested in Canadian History
and railroads in particular.

I found this book on a used book website. Price was $1599.99!!!!![(-D]. Now, that must be one excellent book![;)]. Oh, and they could ship in only 2-3 days![:0]

[trainboyH16-44]

Nope, it's CN, but do they still operate with AC equiptment? I hear that they are powering some trains with CN SD7-Is.
Matthew

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ShaunCN

i knew that the Algoma Central had been taken over by WC.

If WC is gone now, is there an Algoma Central?

[andrewjonathon]

A well known shortline that operates into Canada is the White Pass & Yukon. While it doesn't haul any freight these days, I think it is interesting because it is one of the few shortlines that operates between two countries.

[BR60103]

Amendment to Siberianmo:
GRR was CPR subsidiary, linked with Lake Erie and Northern. Date given was abandonment of Electric freight service. Line continued running with CPR diesels, but was gradually cut back, now running from CPR in Galt to CNR in Kitchener.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman

LINES OF COUNTRY: An Atlas of Railway and Waterway
History in Canada.
Well bound hard cover 12"x16" {rinterd by The Boston Mills Press
Author: Christopher Andreae
Cartography: Geoffrey Matthews
Design: Mark Fram
Copyright 1997
Distributed in the U.S.A. by General Distribution Services Inc.
85 River rock Drive, Suite 202, Buffalo, NY. 14207
Toll Free 1-800-895-1083 Fax [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]
Cost $75 U>S>
Don't know what price is in Canada (around $95.00
my son gave this great volume to me at Christmas
and of course inked out the Cdn. price
If yIf you are looking for Canadian fallen flags, this is the
book Even shows some interesting industrieal
lines etc. such as the St.Jean Dieu line from the StLawrence
River in Montreal to the StJean Dieu mental hospital
and also a picture of the St,Vincent sw Paul Penitentiary
near Montreal with a picture of prisoners chained to
a car transporting them to a rock quary.

Maps are shown by provinces from the inception to 1997
with four or five maps per Province. Rail lines are indicated
by numbers, and you have to look up the index at the rear to
trace the fallen flags etc. Maps also of major Cdn. Cities.

Also listed are waterways and streetcar lines.

A definite must for anyone interested in Canadian History
and railroads in particular.

Thank you very much for the info.[:)]

[morseman]

LINES OF COUNTRY: An Atlas of Railway and Waterway
History in Canada.
Well bound hard cover 12"x16" {rinterd by The Boston Mills Press
Author: Christopher Andreae
Cartography: Geoffrey Matthews
Design: Mark Fram
Copyright 1997
Distributed in the U.S.A. by General Distribution Services Inc.
85 River rock Drive, Suite 202, Buffalo, NY. 14207
Toll Free 1-800-895-1083 Fax [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]
Cost $75 U>S>
Don't know what price is in Canada (around $95.00
my son gave this great volume to me at Christmas
and of course inked out the Cdn. price
If yIf you are looking for Canadian fallen flags, this is the
book Even shows some interesting industrieal
lines etc. such as the St.Jean Dieu line from the StLawrence
River in Montreal to the StJean Dieu mental hospital
and also a picture of the St,Vincent sw Paul Penitentiary
near Montreal with a picture of prisoners chained to
a car transporting them to a rock quary.

Maps are shown by provinces from the inception to 1997
with four or five maps per Province. Rail lines are indicated
by numbers, and you have to look up the index at the rear to
trace the fallen flags etc. Maps also of major Cdn. Cities.

Also listed are waterways and streetcar lines.

A definite must for anyone interested in Canadian History
and railroads in particular.

[ShaunCN]

i knew that the Algoma Central had been taken over by WC.

[espeefoamer]

There's Quebec Central,owned by CP.Also Cartier Railway and Quebec North Shore and Labrador,and the Arnaud railway.These last three are iron ore haulers.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NARguy

Why don;t you go to the Railway Association of Canada website or pick up a Canadian Trackside Guide to check out the exhaustive listings of every railway in Canada.

Thanks. I never thought of that. Just look at all the time I'll save by not having to read the thoughts of railfans, Canadian and otherwise, on this message board[:p]!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Look for the book "Lines of Country", came out about 5 years ago. An historic atlas of Canadian rail lines, with all the stretches of track marked showing original owner and subsequent owners up to abandonment.
Just listing all the local lines would take pages. CN was made from Grand Trunk, Canadian Northern, Canadian Government, Great Western, and those were made from smaller lines.
The one I mourn is the Ontario and Quebec, which was leased and stripped by CPR and ended up with no track and no rolling stock, just a shell.

Thanks. That sounds like a book I'd enjoy.

[Anonymous]

Why don;t you go to the Railway Association of Canada website or pick up a Canadian Trackside Guide to check out the exhaustive listings of every railway in Canada.

[siberianmo]

[2c] My thoughts on the subject:

While it may be argued that only CP and CN represent Canada and everything else sort of fell in here or there, some there were (and are) other roads, even if subsidies of the "giants," their flags no longer fly. Here a but a few .....

The Dominion Atlantic (Land of the Evangeline Route). Herald last seen on the tenders of D10s and G2s.

Newfoundland Railway. Formal abandonment occured at mdnight on Oct 1st, 1998. First spike removed on Oct 12th, 1988 signifying the end of an era.

Alma & Jonquieres of Quebec, Canada. Reporting marks eliminated in Apr 1974.

Grand River Railway of Ontario, Canada. Passenger ops ceased on Apr 23rd, 1955 with freights ending on Oct 1st, 1961.

London & Port Stanley Railway of Ontario, Canada. Passenger service was discontinued in 1957. Ended independent ops in 1966

Northern Alberta Railways. Ceased independent ops in 1981.

In response to a previous Post: And as much as I dearly love to travel aboard VIA Rail. Are they really a railroad, or simply a rail user [?] If they own trackage and rights-of-way, I suppose the term, "railroad" would fit.