Canadian Railways Operations

[daveklepper]

Logical!

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Dear M.S. (and Others),

Sorry to have unwittingly baffled some of you with my enquiry, perhaps Cogload would be best placed to explain the workings in question.

Martin,
Thanks for making the enquiry, that is an interesting topic.
It is this link that is baffling. It seems to be written for fellow signal maintainers only. http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

It appears that CPR would have a competitive route, mileagewise. is CN competitive with the longer route, but easier grades?

Yes. BNSF does have the shortest route, but Cascade tunnel is a choke point which negates that advantage. This goes for the Stampede Pass as well. Perhaps in the future CP will be part of UP, and the Crowsnest route could see more use.
There are many people in Canada that say the CPR should have gone through Yellowhead Pass instead of Kicking Horse. The route still effects the character of both railways. The CNR could certainly call itself "The Water Level Route" while CP is a mountain railway, like the PRR. In 1972 CP even put up a quarter mile test section of catenary in Rogers Pass as part of a study on electrification.
CN bought 16 GP40's and 268 GP40-2L(W) locomotives, while CP never acquired any of GP40s. CP bought the largest fleet of SD40-2's (until passed by BN and UP). CN also got SD40s, but most of them were without dynamic brakes. CN never got into Locotrol while CP built a fleet first using robot cars and then more snoot SD40s than anyone else.
During the last 10 years CP has bought all of their new locomotives with AC traction motors, 61 SD90MAC (43), 4 SD90MAC (H), 438 AC4400CW, and now 60 ES44AC's.
CN has purchased all of their new locomotives with DC traction, 26 SD70I, 175 SD75I, 90 Dash 8-40CM, and 233 Dash 9-44CW.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by be_random1991

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

One has to remember, in discussing CN (which is my favourite too, but not by much!) that CN was sort of 'assembled' rather than 'built'. In some ways, curiously similar to Conrail, actually. So a question as to what short lines belong to CN is a little confusing, as it depends on just how far back in the history of the company one wants to go.

The main backbone of the system -- the primary east-west mainline -- would never have qualified as a short line, but there are any number of short lines which were brought under the CN umbrella either when CN was assembled (mostly to ensure that there were two major railroads in Canada) as a Crown corporation, or before -- or afterwards.

The Grand Trunk, for instance, was a major part of the puzzle -- but it itself was made up of assorted bits and pieces, and actually had two parts: Grand Trunk and Grand Trunk Western. It's the only part I really know much about without going to reference books! But as I write, a model of GTW 3412, a Mikado, sits on my desk (to the confusion of my co-workers), detailed as it was in the late 1950s, when it worked on the Central Vermont -- which was a subsidiary of the Grand Trunk, not the Grand Trunk Western. At that time we also had some Geeps from Winnipeg, and some RS11s which we'd gotten ourselves, and some C-Liners which came from who-knows-where, not to mention some Mountains which were picked up for a song.

It's rather confusing...

I would say, off hand (and I don't have my references here!) that there were at least a dozen short lines in Ontario alone which went into the makeup of the CN.

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

Boy did that link get confusing in a hurry![sigh] I guess I understand the concept, but man is that weird![:)]

Dear M.S. (and Others),

Sorry to have unwittingly baffled some of you with my enquiry, perhaps Cogload would be best placed to explain the workings in question.

Regards,

[Murphy Siding]

It appears that CPR would have a competitive route, mileagewise. is CN competitive with the longer route, but easier grades?

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Logic question ( it's a curse that my brain was hard wired for logic- the only noticeable outward trait is a mouth that's always saying hmmmm........?) : How do CN and CP compete with BNSF and UP in hauling container traffic from the west coast to Chicago? Wouldn't the Canadian routes be longer and more mountainous?

From Chicago to the three main northwest container ports BNSF has the shortest routes. BNSF must cross the Rockies at Marias Pass, 5213'. Further west BNSF goes through Cascade tunnel (no stacks ?) at 2833' or Stampede Pass (no stacks) at 2852' or the longer route along the Columbia River.
Union Pacific reaches 8013' at Sherman and then must battle the Blue Mountains, 4305'.
Canadian Pacific goes through the Rockies via Kicking Horse Pass, 5326' and then through the Selkirks via Rogers Pass, 3463'.
Canadian National takes the long route to avoid grades. Yellowhead pass is only 3717' and CN could use fewer locomotives than the other three railways.
Another flat route is the joint CP-UP route through Crowsnest Pass, 4459'.

Chicago-Tacoma
2220 miles BNSF Cascade
2248 miles BNSF Stampede
2358 miles BNSF Columbia
2373 miles UP
2418 miles CP-UP

Chicago-Seattle
2181 BNSF Cascade
2251 BNSF Stampede
2398 BNSF Columbia
2406 UP
2451 CP-UP

Chicago-Vancouver
2212 CPR
2271 BNSF Cascade
2397 CN
2405 BNSF Stampede
2552 BNSF Columbia.

[BR60103]

Mr. Siding:
I think CP Dieselized from the west because the President (N R Crump) had worked for years in the Rockies on the increasing size of steam locos and felt that diesels would clear up a lot of headaches.
CN and CP have spun off a large number of shortlines. These have drifted in and out of various combinations (usually US ownerships). Locally, the Brampton and Orangeville is a former CPR line while the Goderich and Exeter is a former CNR line. CPR has incorporated in itself a large number of shortlines, either as takeovers or as subsidiary companies.
I'm not sure about CN owned shortlines -- they have Wisconsin Central and Illinois Central and DM&IR and B&LE .
The only staff/token operation I know is on the Halton County Radial Railway (the trolley museum) (see Trolleyboy's posts) where two reverse loops are connected by a mile of single track. They have a 5 segmented staff which allows them to run 5 cars at a time. (Rule: each car going down the line must have a segment of staff and must see the base segment of staff. Last car takes all remaining pieces. Cars can run without a segment iff they have seen the entire staff.)
(For the others: a staff or token is authorization to be on a length of single track. They are almost always interlocked with the signalling system so that only one can be available at a time. There is a machine in the signalbox that allows one to be withdrawn when the signalmen at both ends of the line cooperate.)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by be_random1991

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

I can't think of any shortlines that are owned by CN. They did own the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway in eastern Quebec at one time. They have purchased regionals like BC Rail and have assimilated them. In the USA they own regionals DM&IR and B&LE and will probably assimilate them.
Follow up questions are welcome.

How about the opposite: Has CN or CP ever spun-off some trackage that became a shortline?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

Boy did that link get confusing in a hurry![sigh] I guess I understand the concept, but man is that weird![:)]

[Murphy Siding]

Sounds like gas stations that attatch the bathroom key to a 2 x 4.[;)]

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

Murphy the same system was used in a few places in the US also. One place it was used was on Donner Pass on the then Central Pacific, later Southern Pacific. The book "Donner Pass" by John Signor, published by Golden West Books had a good description of how the equipment worked along with illustrations. The SP used to have trains pickup their tokens on the fly using an
apparatus similar to that used for picking up mail sacks on the fly. There are several pages in the book devoted to the subject along with good illustrations.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by be_random1991

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

I can't think of any shortlines that are owned by CN. They did own the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway in eastern Quebec at one time. They have purchased regionals like BC Rail and have assimilated them. In the USA they own regionals DM&IR and B&LE and will probably assimilate them.
Follow up questions are welcome.

[Anonymous]

So what shortlines belong to CN? CN is my favorite railroad, but I don't know much about it, so please help me out with this. Thanks!

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

I don't know the details but I did see it on the telly[;)] once being used in India. It is explained in one of my 150+ Branchline magazines and I've started looking for it. It was indeed used by the CPR to cross the Ottawa River.
A member of the crew would take this baton thing out of a box on one end of the bridge and carry it over to the other side onboard the train. All signals would read stop until the staff was placed in the box on the other side. CP did use it at several places across Canada.
http://www.railways.incanada.net/circle/findings8.html

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

Wow! There's that language comprehension thing again, except in stereo![;)] Could a Canadian or a Brit please explain this to this dumb American? Thanks

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

I believe I read staffs were used on the Canadian Pacific for the bridge crossing the Ottawa River between Ottawa and Hull, Quebec.

[mhurley87f]

Single Line Tokens / Train Staffs

Did any Canadian Railway adopt the practice of controlling Single Line working by interlocking signals and points, and the issue of Single Line Tokens to trains authorised to enter a single line section?

In different forms, it's still in widespread use in the UK, and I seem to recall seeing this method of working in films of other Commonwealth countries, but was this ever adopted in Canada?

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Did the FT demonstrator model, #103 ever test on Canadian Roads? I believe that CN had a viable diesel road freight unit back in the 20's. When did dieselization get a good start? Did Canadan dieselization mirror that in the US, switchers,then passenger trains, followed by road freight with FT units?

Murphy, I don't believe that the FT demonstrated in Canada. One thing to remember is that Canada declared war on Germany in September 1939 and so all their industries began war production at that time. Except for CN's experimental boxcabs and excluding the GTW , the CN did not receive any diesels until 1946 when they made a small purchase of NW2 switchers. CN started road diesels with 6 F3s in 1948, but did follow up until 1951.
CP received a handful of Alco S2s during the war, and bought a few more after the war. You have to remember that GMD, MLW, and CLC didn't start building diesel locomotives until 1950-51, except for a small batch of Whitcomb 70T switchers assembled by CLC.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KevinRC

Don't forget in Nova Scotia, The Cape Breton and Northern Nova Scotia Railway and the Windsor and Hantsport Railway. The CB&NS shares a Swing Bridge with part of the Trans Canada Highway, crossing the Strait of Canso. If your interested in looking at above bridge just type Canso Causeway into any search engine

I think I've read where the CB&NS was somewhat famous for having Montreal built Alcos?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Mr. Siding:
CPR Dieselisation was done primarily on a geographic basis from west to east. However (perennial however!) diesels were also put on passenger trains, from the top down, I think. The Canadian was Dieselised from its start in 54/55.
One loco bought in 37, a series of switchers from 43, then road diesels in 1949.
CN and CP didn't buy any F units earlier than F3s in 1948. Don't know about the demonstrators.

Interesting. Why west to east? I would think that most of the population, and most of the passenger trains would have been in the east.

[BR60103]

Mr. Siding:
CPR Dieselisation was done primarily on a geographic basis from west to east. However (perennial however!) diesels were also put on passenger trains, from the top down, I think. The Canadian was Dieselised from its start in 54/55.
One loco bought in 37, a series of switchers from 43, then road diesels in 1949.
CN and CP didn't buy any F units earlier than F3s in 1948. Don't know about the demonstrators.

[Anonymous]

Don't forget in Nova Scotia, The Cape Breton and Northern Nova Scotia Railway and the Windsor and Hantsport Railway. The CB&NS shares a Swing Bridge with part of the Trans Canada Highway, crossing the Strait of Canso. If your interested in looking at above bridge just type Canso Causeway into any search engine

[jchnhtfd]

CN did have a road diesel in the 20s. How viable it really was is open to question, as it was a bit of a maintenance nightmare, but it did run for quite a while -- first as two permanently coupled units, and then split into two separate locomotives. But in general dieselization did follow the US model, although perhaps a little later all around.

[Murphy Siding]

Did the FT demonstrator model, #103 ever test on Canadian Roads? I believe that CN had a viable diesel road freight unit back in the 20's. When did dieselization get a good start? Did Canadan dieselization mirror that in the US, switchers,then passenger trains, followed by road freight with FT units?

[nanaimo73]

Yes. VIA calls it the "Malahat", and they use CN practice of calling it a Railiner. Most of the people that live here call it the Dayliner, which is the CP term. BC Rail and the Alaska RR also called it a Dayliner. "Budd car" or "RDC" are also used here.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale ( in Nanaimo ): I've been reading the multitude of links you've posted. ( Imagine that[:)]) It appears that rail operations in your local area are somewhat in limbo? What is the long term plan for the line that the shortline operator had?

Thanks

Railamerica has wanted to get out since the paper mill over in Port Alberni switched to Trucks. A group on the Island made up of local governments and First Nations (Native Bands, or Indian Tribes in the USA ?) want to buy the line. This may be for $1, with Railamerica getting some kind of donation tax credit. I really don't think there is enough traffic here for that. Perhaps just a local line here in Nanaimo handling propane could make it. The 140 miles from Victoria to Courtenay is mainly for VIA's Dayliner. That service does not make economic sense, but many people here feel Ottawa owes us that service from 1871 when British Columbia joined Canada under a promise of rail service to Victoria.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rfaulks/pages/reprieve.html
http://www.trainweb.org/canadianrailways/articles/EsquimaltAndNanaimoRailway.htm

I'd offer the $1 myself, if I thought it would help. Reading those links, it doesn't sound like there is much likelyhood in the E & N having a very rosy future.[:(]. Is VIA's Dayliner the RDC's mentioned on the E & N site?

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dale ( in Nanaimo ): I've been reading the multitude of links you've posted. ( Imagine that[:)]) It appears that rail operations in your local area are somewhat in limbo? What is the long term plan for the line that the shortline operator had?

Thanks

Railamerica has wanted to get out since the paper mill over in Port Alberni switched to Trucks. A group on the Island made up of local governments and First Nations (Native Bands, or Indian Tribes in the USA ?) want to buy the line. This may be for $1, with Railamerica getting some kind of donation tax credit. I really don't think there is enough traffic here for that. Perhaps just a local line here in Nanaimo handling propane could make it. The 140 miles from Victoria to Courtenay is mainly for VIA's Dayliner. That service does not make economic sense, but many people here feel Ottawa owes us that service from 1871 when British Columbia joined Canada under a promise of rail service to Victoria.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rfaulks/pages/reprieve.html
http://www.trainweb.org/canadianrailways/articles/EsquimaltAndNanaimoRailway.htm

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by BentnoseWillie

Not really. I don't know the CP grades offhand, but I think CN's transcontinental ruling grade is around 1.5%, thanks to the sweat of surveyors and the dynamite of engineers. [:)]

CP has to go through the Kicking Horse, which is a stiffer grade. Even with the Spiral Tunnels, the old joke still applies that CP got the scenery, but CN got the grades.

The April 2004 issue of Trains Magazine features mountain railroads (railways) and is very good reading. Pages 48 and 49 describe the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific grade profiles from Winnipeg to Vancouver. Pages 74 through 81 describe the building of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian Northern (now part of the Canadian National) in British Columbia. Pages 82 through 89 describe life at the last pusher station on the Canadian Pacific, at Rogers BC.
[:)]

I've read that too. That, and my perception ( or misperception? ) that it seems a lot longer from the west coast to Chicago by way of Canada, makes me wonder how CN & CP compete with BNSF & UP?
I saw mention that the traffic thins out on the eastern end of Canada. What makes up most of that traffic? It would seem that Great Lakes shipping would be a big competitor for a big portion of that freight?

Don't forget that it is the shipping company that determines where the container is landed. Not all companies serve all ports. Also where on the ship the container is loaded determines where it is unloaded. The majority of shipping companies serve Los Angeles/Long Beach as their first port of call after crossing the Pacific. They will unload the majority of their cargo there. They will not take on very many containers in LA. They then proceed north to either Seattle/Tacoma or Vancouver, rarely both. Here they will unload the remaining North America bound containers and all loads for Asia, and then fill the remaining spaces with empties. This is why both BNSF and UP run alot of baretables from the Pacific Northwest to LA. Business for Canada is sent to Vancouver to avoid having to pass through US Customs. US traffic unloaded through Vancouver moves in Bond across Canada and is inspected at either the border crossings Portal, ND or Ranier, MN or at Minneapolis or Chicago. The port of Vancouver can compete with Seattle/Tacoma due to capacity issues at
Seattle/Tacoma (port and railroad).

[Murphy Siding]

Dale ( in Nanaimo ): I've been reading the multitude of links you've posted. ( Imagine that[:)]) It appears that rail operations in your local area are somewhat in limbo? What is the long term plan for the line that the shortline operator had?

Thanks

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

The locating engineers and division chiefs for the CPR were usually Americans, BTW.

Technically, quite true -- but they came to Canada and the CPR, and became Canadian (just like a whole lot of other immigrants) and put their hearts and souls into building that great railroad -- they thought of themselves as railroaders, first and foremost.