Re: Is Being a Railfan Un-American?

[css2005]

If it's such a percieved problem for us railfans to be well informed about railroad operations and facilities I wonder how come the government doesn't have Trains magazine stop printing stuff like that nice useful list of 96 current major classification yards which ironically appears in the same "UnAmerican To Be A Railfan?" issue? So in one way the magazines that are promoting the hobby are also hurting us if it's looked at in a certain light - particularly from the government side of things. Personally speaking I believe I have the right and freedom to watch/photograph trains from public property (which does NOT mean it's okay to do so on railroad property) for my own enjoyment. The problem is security forces that don't understand the hobby (thus making it hard to explain it's only a pleasure hobby) or the railroad employees that hate railfans. In fact certain employees could use lessons on how to better interact with the public since they start out by yelling and ordering one off the property. That happened to me once but the kicker was that I was not on railroad property but public property! This individual just didn't want anyone near the tracks despite the nearest track being 50 feet away which wasn't even his railroad. Now I do realize there are soem 'bad apple' employees like there are a few railfans who are bad apples as well. What I think may be needed is a nationwide program to educate railroad employees (especially RR police) about railfans and set up a database/ID card system for railfans. This way we'll be on record as railfans should we be checked out thus lessening possible major misunderstandings as to intent on a railfan's part for the purplose of pictures, etc. I also don't mean such a ID card system to be a license to go onto railroad property. Rather it would act as letting authorities know you're considered a harmless railfan instead of being Mr. Terrorist or whatever they think. Unfortunely this issue won't be solved easily or quickly and I only hope common sense prevails on both sides before some minor incident is misunderstood and makes things worse. Basically all I hear is how railfans are a problem yet also hear 'people will always watch trains' - but those are the same things! Hopefully some acceptable solution will be found soon to satisfy both sides of this issue but I doubt that will occur......

[Anonymous]

I agree with both Mr Burgess,And Mr Bradleys veiws, No doubt,The News does more damage than any of us with a 35mm in a public parking lot!!!,
However I do side with the Railroads for safty sake,How often do we read where a railfan is injured?Not to get off subject,But for exsample, I was a Captain of Arson investigation for 11 years,As well as a fire buff, I questioned both buffs and curious on lookers at large fires,And at times told photographers to get back,My point, If I couldn't tell good from the bad,ThenI'm sure the railroads cannot either.But I did get to know a few groups and they were invauble to me in helping keeping a look out for supects, As TRAINS mentioned,The Railroads could/would enjoy a closer relationship with its fans,
I too,Would enjoy organized events and tours,And As for myself, I'd pay a couple of bucks for some sort of wacky lincense like one gets for fishing and hunting. Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

Tim I have never been arrested for taking photographs of anything.

[Anonymous]

Regarding the April 03 Trains Mag, "Is Being a Railfan Un-American"?

No, it is not un-American.

However, "Railfans" desiring to take photos on railroad property should be required to register with the railroads "Security Police" and obtain written permission, "pass" or whatever the railroads "Security Police" decide on and retain this on their person. This "permissive pass" should designate the specific area covered by this special permission, NOT cover an entire railroad or division and must have a validation period, i.e. good from (date) - (date).

Situations regarding travel on a train or following on an adjacent highway for "distances" for the purpose of taking photos can be dealt with on on an individual basis.

Dave W. Pepper
WP&YR Superintendent, Retired

[Anonymous]

I to am a 51 year in the industry retired railroad operating managment employee and a Rail Buff all my life.This article, "is it un American to be a rail fan" in April Trains really bothers(to say the least)me. The railroad industry needs friends both shippers, passengers and railfans. I will admit there are many so called rail fans that trespass, steal and be an all over pain in the *** to the industry. When I was stationed in Meadville Pa. on the EL, I asked my superintendent if we could have a railroad weekend and open up all the facilities to the public, after he fell over laughing he said to me don't I give you enough to do I already worked 7 days a week so what is the diffrence.He said it was ok with him as I will take all the responsibility if it is a disaster. It was in 1969 and I got volunteers from off duty operating and mechanical people We got school bus drivers with their busses and we put 20,000 people thru the property in the 2 days people came from Pittsburgh, Erie, Cleveland and all over we had a ball and the news papers commended the EL for allowing this to happen. WE MADE FRIENDS. something we have to make today. This government is taking our freedoms away daily and this is all a way that they can control people in the guise of terrorism. CONTROL is what they want and the railroad industry listens to them. I am fed up with identification to show all the governments abc people DIDN'T HITLER 'S PEOPLE ask for YOUR PAPERS!! I was alive then and they did this. What is the diffrence today. Yes private property is private property BUT the responsible rail fan could still be a part of the industry. I suggest that the railroads could help the rail fan plus make a little money and SPECIALLY MAKE A FRIEND that will help them in the long run. Yes the rail fan is a pain in the *** BUT a necessiary pain. My suggestion was to have rail fans that want to photo or visit the property (not in a crowd) The rail fan would have to attend a yearly rule and safety seminar with a test that has to be passed paid for by the rail fan and then he would sign a contract to take ALL responsibility for his actions relating to his physical health on the company property. He would be given an ID tag to be worn while on the property so all employes would know he a visitor. If he does not act responssible he will have his Tag removed and asked to leave. Yes I know you are all laughing at this by saying WHY WOULD A COMPANY WANT TO DO THIS? I have an answer to this this railfan that has permission with his tag will look out for the railroad in many ways. In my lifetime I saved 3 railroads from BIG derailments and delayed trains. I didn't have to do any of this but I felt I owed my industry a hand. Just to mention one I was on the highway along the BN and I saw a coal train with a defective car smoking not a hot journal. other. I raced ahead and gave the engineer a stop signal and he stopped and I took the headman back to the problem and they set the car off a few miles ahead. Another time while I was at school at Electro motive in La Grange ,Ill. on my off hours I went up to the station to watch the commuter trains. A westboung freight was roaring by me and it came to a stop I could see they had trouble. I went to the locomotive and told the engineer that I was a RFofE out east and I asked him if I could help. He said yes and after changing out a ER regulator from the 2nd unit they were off and running in 30 minutes mechanical people were just leaving Cicero yard.
You see some railfans will be an aset not a libility. I am ashamed of the KCS's attitude to the railfan, he wasn't given a chance. Government wants control and we are giving it to them. Did we loose to the terriorists........I think we did
M.C.Wikman

[edblysard]

Hi CSS,
From a railroader who dosnt mind fans, a word of advice. Try some proactive measures. If you have a favorite train watching spot, or a favorite railroad you "railfan", find out who the Chief of the Railroad Police is. If you spot one of the officers on patrol, flag him, or her, down. Introduce yourself, you will find most of them are already familar with fans, and the "odd" behaviour they have. If you have one of your business cards with you, give it to them, and ask where they would suggest you watch from. If you have any questions about what is and isnt rr property, ask them, they are sure to know.
See one of them watching a yard, or guarding a train, go buy them a cup of coffee. You will be pleasently surprised to find out most of them really dont consider you a threat, as long as your off property, they really could care less if you want to watch. By taking the lead, and showing them you pose no threat to them or their railroad, most of them will not only leave you be, but will watch out for your safty as well. Face it, most yards and hot spots for watching trains are not in the best of neighborhoods, and dusk or evening isnt the safest time to be around them. And anyone hanging around in a car deserves to be checked out, its only standard opperating policy. Wouldnt you want the cops to check out someone sitting in front of your house in a car, doing nothing but watching?
As for the paranoid of us who assume we will be facing the gestapo when approached by rr cops, understand that they have a job to do. Most dont want to arrest anyone, it involves a lot of paperwork, time "downtown", dealing with the local police force, so on. What they want is for the fans to keep off the property, not so much to stop terrorism, but to protect the railroad from liability, in case you get hurt on the railroads property. The fact that, as of this date, only three arrests have been made on my railroad since sept 11th, two for theft, and the other, well, the guy was so drunk he walked down the middle of the yard, straight into the side of a parked locomotive, pretty much stopped his clock. No choice on that one. What our police force has been ordered to do is arrest anyone on railroad property, (read that part again, ON RAILROAD PROPERTY) who can not produce a photo ID showing themselves to be a employee, or service person, in the employeement of the railroad. Minors are to be detained untill a parent or guardian can accept custody of them, adults are to be processed through the local police force, and the FBI is to be notified. Our police chief made it very clear, he stressed the point repeatedly, only those found on railroad property. They know most of the fans here, and advised them of this as time and chance permitted. Most of the local fans have never tresspassed, and show a healthy respect for the equipment. Yes, one or two bad apples can spoil it for the rest of yall, as can one bad cop give a bad reputation to the rest of the police officers. And remember, if it walks like a duck, and quacks, well... Hiding in the bushes trying to get a photo of that old caboose stashed in the middle of a yard will look pretty funny to a cop. On the other hand, if you approach him, and ask if you can, or ask if he would, and he agrees, hand him you camera. If you happen to have a ice cold soda waiting for him when he brings your camera back, who knows, you might get a little "offical" access to some areas you never expected. It has happened here once or twice. If you treat them like people, most of them will recriprocate.
All that said, consider this. Just because it was written in a magazine, or a newspaper for that matter, dosn't make it the gospel. I subscribe to Trains, along with a few industry and trade magazines. I have found that, for the most part, they do try to present the "facts" as they know them, but they do make mistakes. Trains published a story on my railroad a few years back, and it contained a few errors. But, and this is a big but.. what they print is their or their reporters interpertation of the information they have, information often provided by the railroad itself. You dont think Enron would have told a reporter from the Financal Times the truth about their accounting pratices, do you? So why would a railroad give any more factual truth to a reporter, unless it serves the railroads best intrest, and enhances its public image?
So use your two most valuable assets, courtesy and common sense.
Dont tresspass, be polite if approached by the railroads police or officers, cooperate up to the point, if it comes to it, that they tell you that you cant take photos. If your are on public property, stand your ground. If your in the right, they should leave you alone. But you have to determine how far you wish it to go, and what level of harrassment you wi***o tolerate. Remember, there are a lots of railroads and railroaders, and a bunch still welcome fans.
Stay frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

I keep telling them we are not all fan haters...
Ed

[Anonymous]

Number One--calling a railroader like wabash a bonehead is reason enough for many railroaders to not like railfans. Step into his shoes for a minute. You may not like his opinions, but he has very valid reasons for them. Those pictures taken of him and his crew members may, to the tiniest of degrees, be enough of a "rules" violation to get them time off. Try knocking off a handbrake while upholding all the "safety" rules the railroad has. Railfanning and railroading are quite different. The rules and the real world seldom meet.

[oldsoundguy]

1. The US constitution is only as good as the people in charge of upholding it. The current administration is not doing a very good job. This will have to be remedied at the next election.

2. Remember that private property is PRIVATE.

3. In your car carry the current (and replaceable) copys of TRAINS, MODEL RAILROADER, RAILFAN AND RAILROAD and RAILWAY MODEL CRAFTSMAN. A Pentrex catalog would also help. These can be used to educate any law enforcement types that the hobby exists.

4. But remember, railroads are vulnerable, especially at bridges and where there are switches. There IS a real danger at present so play it cool and practice courtesy.

5. --- I also worry that some photolab will see your train pix and call the fuzz. ---

[Anonymous]

Security at the cost of freedom is tyranny!

[Anonymous]

I work next to NS tracks, own stock in NS (it's my railroad too) and I keep the NS Police phone number on me. Calling 911 on a cell phone will get you the state police, who may not be in the area. I also keep local police phone numbers handy too. If the police do search you and find several police agency phone numbers in your phone book, I would think it could help your case.
Big Brother is barking up the wrong tree when interrogating railfans on public property. Somehow I just can't imagine terrorist posing as a railfan for a cover. Like in Vietnam, "Charlie don't surf", Ali don't railfan. I live in East Dearborn Michigan which has the largest Arabic population in the USA. I know my neighbors are much more a road hazard (running stop signs, red lights and just poor driving skills) than a national security problem. I wonder how many subscriptions to TRAINS are held by someone with an Arabic name? They do have railroads in the Middle East but are there railfans too?
More likly terrorist would blend in as someone who looks like they work for the railroad. It would be an advantage to have a railfan taking their photo in case anything happened later.
Theft, vandalism and possible derailments is more commom and a good reason to stay clear from railroad property. I believe it is in the best intrest of the railroad if there were a way for rairoad police and railfans to become familiar, if not friends, with each other. Often you can, and should, meet a railroad police officer at at model train shows. The railroads can explain the rules on safty for us railfans to follow and what to do if we see anything that's not right.

[rckingsnorth]

Bryant Kaden:
That's a commendable, common sense approach. Let's go about our lives, respecting others. Thanks.

[rckingsnorth]

Re: Article
Please let me sign up to be a card-carrying railfan. I like Jake Jacobson’s optimistic partnering. I would be pleased to be part of the “neighborhood watch”. The administrative load in a place like Cajon Pass or Colton yard, California, would be daunting. On the many beautiful days in these spots, the number of railfans makes the tracks look like a parade route. Probably enough company to intimidate the terrorists. It would be impossible to cause trouble with so many knowledgeable fans around. The railroads should encourage the crowds, …on public property.

Trespassing is a no-no, but Richard Whitenight’s harassment on public property by the FBI sounds unforgivable. Are there any legal types that can come to his aid? I would like to see a full list of the FBI chain of command in that instance that condones that government action. I believe an apology and an annulment of the “letter” are the least Mr. Bush could offer. And I would encourage the UP to get over their paranoia, and invite Mr. Whitenight to tag along with one the crews for part of a day. The railroads should be encouraging their supporters, not alienating them.

I chuckle over Jim Satterwhite’s experience. Who else but a certifiable railfan would chase a train in a car? Surely the KCS crew should recognize the antics of a railfan. I hesitate to predict the mind and actions of a terrorist, but taking pictures of the same local freight train along the line does not sound threatening to me. Fortunately, most of the cases that TRAINS cited ended with nothing more than “please move along”, and a tremendous waste of time by the “officials”.

Perhaps the terrorists are winning.

Look what we are doing to ourselves.

[Anonymous]

Martin,
The war on terrior is over when the governmwnt has complete control of your lives in the one world order Police state. Which we the sheeple are handing it to them. Ill take photos and watch trains and read railroad magazens while waiting for trains as long as God lets me live
Mike W

[louisnash]

If a man takes a job and he has a set of rules to follow and he can't follow all of them seems to me like he is a risk to the employer. You take a job on the railroad with rules just like any other job with rules. If you cant't follow them like you are supposed to then quit before you get hurt. Like I said one day one of you RR guys/gals may need the assistance of one of us railfans and it may come down to us turning the cheek on you. You never know one of those pictures may benefit you. Or we may just say," the heck with you, get your help yourself. We're not allowed on your RR property. To much of a risk." So get over it.

[Anonymous]

1. In A FREE COUNTRY, why does anyone need a permit to do ANYTHING on PUBLIC PROPERTY? (those of you who tried to shift the discussion to tresspassing on private property missed the point here) This isn't 1940. Our enemies have volumes of data from books, mags, internet, and spy satellites. They don't need to stand trackside to do harmful things.

2. When will all the people taking pictures of the shuttle and tracking it (using government-sponsored web sites!) be harassed/arrested? Oh, turns out that was HELPFUL, wasn't it?

3. No one look up! You might see an airplane overhead...

I am more than fed up with Bush's tyrannical tendencies. I don't agree with the often-quoted statement "the world has changed". There has always been the threat of terrorism ever since man invented weapons that could be used beyond an arm's length. I grew up under the Cold War threat from Russia. We are in no more or less danger that any other nation or people have been in before. As long as there exists any fanatic group of fundamentalist nuts who think their religion or way of life (government) gives them the right to kill others over their differences, no one is safe.

The better choice is for all of us fans, railroaders, property owners, and government workers to be POLITE, TOLERANT, and OBSERVANT toward each other. Don't make enemies of your friends by acting stupid. Respect the fact that there are people who are interested in different things, and that people at work don't want to be distracted. When appropriate, ask permission. At the same time, if you know you are within your rights, firmly but repectfully disagree.

If none of us protect our rights at times like these, there soon won't be any rights to protect. Document, and when appropriate take whatever legal action it takes to remind those who think they are in charge who IS in charge of this country. And vote in the next election.

We may not be known for much, but in Alabama I grew up knowing a little Latin: "Audemus jura nostra defendere" means: "We Dare Defend Our Rights."

[Anonymous]

While terrorists are a factor, it is the loonies (aka: criminals) out there stealing RR property such as in the recent Strasburg RR heist, that are the bigger threat to the hobby.

That said, I am rather bemused over A) why it took Trains 19 months to come up with this article when the whole railfan community has been floundering trying to understand how their hobby has been affected and what the new "rules" of behavior are; and, B) in a search for legitimacy in the eyes of law enforcement, why has no one taken action to form a national organization of railfans as exists for several other hobbies. Somehow, I don't think the AAR RailFanClub would be so inclined, nor would a hobby magazine such as Trains -- in an effort to stay in the industry's good graces.

The most intelligent comment I read in the Trains article was the idea to use railfans as eyes and ears. That was obvious and leads me back to query no one has attempted to form a national organization to support that effort.

I used to (and still am) concerned about including postings of military train movements seen on some message boards, but agree with another poster here that this war buildup has been so publicized, with knowledgeable pundits (usually retired generals) revealing war scenarios, troop deployments and destinations on national TV, that I can't imagine how railfans could even remotely be considered a threat.

Links of interest on this topic:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A56984-2002Nov14

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

http://archive.aclu.org/library/know_your_rights.pdf


Rob
3ri.com

[Anonymous]

As private property owners, railroads have every right to bar railfans from photographing their assets from public property. All they need to do, is construct appropriate visual barriers, perhaps 20 or 25 feet high, blocking view of their property, along their entire right of way, and yard assets.

If in fact there are national security concerns regarding railroad photography, it is the RAILROADS who are being un-patriotic and un-American by negligently allowing their assets to be viewed by the public! Perhaps they should just park their trains until they mask view of their operations

[Anonymous]

Security at the cost of freedom is tyranny!
-----------
So true! We should be allowed to take all the pictures we want from public property. I'm not ready to give up my freedom to NOT be protected by some crazies that the government may or may not be able to stop anyway.

[Anonymous]

This isn't a direct response to any one listing, But I am curious,
How is it with security so tight, A vandel can spray paint a work of art on a car in a yard,?I'm not talking about simple "tagging"But real works of art (If you will)That obiviously took hours to paint?
Yet a railfan on public land is stopped,when taking most photo's last but only 10 minutes tops,
FYI, I too, live on the NS and the CSX lines and get no trouble from them,and even friendly waves from the crews too.

[edblysard]

Didnt miss the point at all. I encourage you to railfar from public property, all I was trying to explain was that most railroad police have no choice but to arrest you if you do tresspass. If, on the other hand, you behave like most fans, and persue your hobby from a public property vantage, and the authorities still give you a hard time, then they, not you, are at fault.
I read the atricle in Trains this morning, and as far as I am concerned, shame on Haverty, and KSC, shame on the local cops and the Federal Agents, who had to know better, or just were having a slow day, and needed something to do, but mostly shame on the crew, who either are a bunch of new hires who dont know any better, or just a bunch of jerks, trying to give someone a hard time.
Yes, use the loudest, most powerful voice you have, your vote. If you dont like whats going on, write your congressman, senator, state rep, anyone you can think of. Get your group to draft a letter or petition and send it also. Contact the local cops where you fan, and explain to them who you are and what your doing. Dont allow them to deny you the pleasure of you hobby, its also your right.
As for railroaders not wanting their picture taken, well, most of us dont mind, but if it is apparent that the crew or person your taking a picture does mind, excersise a little common courtsey, and leave them alone, after all, they have just as much of a right to not want their picture taken and you have in wanting to do so.
And remember, one of the things the goverment does take note of is numbers, and there seems to be a whole lot of you upset over this, so stick together and keep it up. Write Trains magazine, express how you feel, ask them to do a story from your point of view. Write Time magazine, do the same with them. As long as you keep the pressure on, and take a pro-active stance, your elected officals have to pay attention. Let them know if they are not on your side, you will be sure to express your dissappointment in the next election. Heck, write the directer of the FBI, he wont read your letters, but one of his aides will, and if they get enought complaints, he may issue a real set of guidlines to the field offices on how to reconize and handle fans.
Imagine a group of fans, standing in front of UP headquarters, holding up signs that say, "UP harrassd this man because he LIKES their railroad". Be sure to invite a TV news crew, Fox network ought to love that...
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Great Idea, Rob,
So what are you going to call your organization?
As for military shippments, it kinda hard to hide a train of 50 or so flatcars loaded with tanks and Humvees, and with cell phones so common, it only take the fans about a hour to figure out where it is and where its going, and they show up in droves. During Desert Storm, we moved over 20 trains down to the city docks here in Houston, and so many fans were stopping to look and take photos, the local cops had to start ticketing them, they were parking on overpasses, in the median, half on and off the side of the road, had to be over 30 of them at any given time. We even tried to make the moves at night, after midnight, thinking it would be to dark and to late for most of them. Didnt make a bit of diffrence, so we just gave up and went back to daylight moves, safer with this type of loads.
Funny, but the MPs seemed to like all the attention, they were required to guard the trains 24/7, and have to be in thousands of photos.
But back to your national organization of fans, so when are you going to start it? You are going to need a temporary President, and a ad hoc board of directors to start a agenda, a financal person to manage the dues, a media person, to handle contacts with and court the press, and a information officer to do press releases.
How about a national spokesperson?, Kay Bailey Hutchingson? Charleton Heston, or Willford Brumley? Somewhere out there is someone with a face everyone knows, who is a railfan. Michael Goss? He did a PBS ad for the Worlds Greatest Hobby. Got a contact at Kalmbach Publishing? They, of all people, should want to help sponsor such a group, after all, their magazines are directed at fans and modelers, so they should have a finacial stake in all of this.
Hope you weren't just throwing out a idea, and hoping someone else would run with the ball.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Great Idea, Rob,
So what are you going to call your organization?
As for military shippments, it kinda hard to hide a train of 50 or so flatcars loaded with tanks and Humvees, and with cell phones so common, it only take the fans about a hour to figure out where it is and where its going, and they show up in droves. During Desert Storm, we moved over 20 trains down to the city docks here in Houston, and so many fans were stopping to look and take photos, the local cops had to start ticketing them, they were parking on overpasses, in the median, half on and off the side of the road, had to be over 30 of them at any given time. We even tried to make the moves at night, after midnight, thinking it would be to dark and to late for most of them. Didnt make a bit of diffrence, so we just gave up and went back to daylight moves, safer with this type of loads.
Funny, but the MPs seemed to like all the attention, they were required to guard the trains 24/7, and have to be in thousands of photos.
But back to your national organization of fans, so when are you going to start it? You are going to need a temporary President, and a ad hoc board of directors to start a agenda, a financal person to manage the dues, a media person, to handle contacts with and court the press, and a information officer to do press releases.
How about a national spokesperson?, Kay Bailey Hutchingson? Charleton Heston, or Willford Brumley? Somewhere out there is someone with a face everyone knows, who is a railfan. Michael Goss? He did a PBS ad for the Worlds Greatest Hobby. Got a contact at Kalmbach Publishing? They, of all people, should want to help sponsor such a group, after all, their magazines are directed at fans and modelers, so they should have a finacial stake in all of this.
Hope you weren't just throwing out a idea, and hoping someone else would run with the ball.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Great Idea, Rob,
So what are you going to call your organization?
As for military shippments, it kinda hard to hide a train of 50 or so flatcars loaded with tanks and Humvees, and with cell phones so common, it only take the fans about a hour to figure out where it is and where its going, and they show up in droves. During Desert Storm, we moved over 20 trains down to the city docks here in Houston, and so many fans were stopping to look and take photos, the local cops had to start ticketing them, they were parking on overpasses, in the median, half on and off the side of the road, had to be over 30 of them at any given time. We even tried to make the moves at night, after midnight, thinking it would be to dark and to late for most of them. Didnt make a bit of diffrence, so we just gave up and went back to daylight moves, safer with this type of loads.
Funny, but the MPs seemed to like all the attention, they were required to guard the trains 24/7, and have to be in thousands of photos.
But back to your national organization of fans, so when are you going to start it? You are going to need a temporary President, and a ad hoc board of directors to start a agenda, a financal person to manage the dues, a media person, to handle contacts with and court the press, and a information officer to do press releases.
How about a national spokesperson?, Kay Bailey Hutchingson? Charleton Heston, or Willford Brumley? Somewhere out there is someone with a face everyone knows, who is a railfan. Michael Goss? He did a PBS ad for the Worlds Greatest Hobby. Got a contact at Kalmbach Publishing? They, of all people, should want to help sponsor such a group, after all, their magazines are directed at fans and modelers, so they should have a finacial stake in all of this.
Hope you weren't just throwing out a idea, and hoping someone else would run with the ball.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Man, I hate the tab key on this thing...

[Anonymous]

The article points out that railfans are a potential resource in reporting unusual or problem situations. I am surprised, since they quoted Mike Martin, they did not mention that ATSF had a program in the early 90's where they provided railfans with an 800 number to report problems.

As for the AAR not be willing to provide the leadership in setting up a mechanism to work with railfans - if true that is precisely a major part of the problem.

Although it is impossible to know what the future holds in store for us - the country and railfans - as of now I do not see very few differences compared to pre 9/11. After a prief flurry of incidents in October and November of 2001 things seem to have quieted down. I have photographed on the NE Corridor extensively since 9/11, both on and off the property, and never been bothered. However, I have been reluctant to go down to Washington Union Station to photograph. I have spent a week along the NS and CSX in southern WV and not been bothered. I have photographed along the old RF&P and at Alexandria and not been bothered. Add Sand Patch, the Magnolia Cut-Off and NS's ex Pennsy Line. Let's also remember the railroads continue to host railfan activities from fan trips to railfan days (eg, NS at Altoona).

Finally, I wonder whether the two accounts in the article dealt with 2001 or 2002 incidents.

In summary, I think the article in Trains was only fair. Also, I think it was premature as there was very little that could be said about the future.

Bob
Maryland

[RudyRockvilleMD]

First let's look at this from a historical perspective. During WW II railroad photography was curtailed not only because of War Department restrictions, but people didn't have the time, they didn't have the means to get to many good sites, and film was not readily available. However, railfans who could get film during WW II did photograph trains; I remember taking my first railroad photograph, the second section of the B&O's National Limited in Silver Spring, MD, in April or May, 1945, and nothing happened to me. So I don't know if the War Department's restrictions totally banned photography, or if they just banned railroad photography at strategic sites such as bridges, yards, terminals or tunnels. The point is the WW IIrestrictions on railroad photography were taken in stride by the railfans.

Sensitive information was classified during WW II, but in some cases the classifiers were overzealous; a good example of this was the Pennsylvania Railroad's 2-10-4's. Because of War production Board restrictions on new designs they had to settle for an existing 2-10-4 design and they chose the C&O's 2-10-4's as the ones that would most nearly fill their needs. When Trains wrote about them they couldn't publi***heir performance characteristics because they were classified, never mind they were identical to those of the C&O which had been in service for some time. In other cases, information which should have been classified was published in technical journals in the open literature.

During the Korean Conflict there were no government imposed restrictions on railroad photography that I know of, but there was some hysteria associated with photographing trains in the early 1950's, but fortunately that was short lived.

Today things are different. During WW II and the early 1950's we didn't have the satellite imagess which we have today. Further, and as many have pointed out, railroad photos of many subjects are readily available so restricting railroad photography makes little sense. The same goes for publishing information about interesting photo locations. At the same time should the railroads try to force cities to close their railfan parks?

[BRAKIE]

Well,j,You ever stop and think it may be a railfan that will save your life if he/she sees a broken rail or other danger and call it in? Naw,I bet you didn't think of that.We are not the enemy..

[RudyRockvilleMD]

To add to my earlier reply. As far as I know there are no laws that prohibit railroad photography from safe public property unless you are near a recognizeable military facility. Since September 11, 2001 I have been photographing trains from public property on the NEC, on CSX, the CP in Portage, WI, and the BNSF and the UP in Rochelle, IL, and I have never been hassled.

[Anonymous]

its crap ive been a fan 18 years and one time i was at the wrong place at the wrong time. i was going out to catch the local CSX D784 that runs out of Dayton Needmore Yard so i could get some night shots as it happens i saw something on my way to see D784. it seemed that a brige caught fire and alli did was ask what happend. then i was brutally attacked by police because i was a railfan. brutially meaning questions asked right and left. i felt like my rights were violated. also the cops took the roll of film i bought that night with a ex conrail repaint on it i go back the next day to get my film and i told them you aholes made me miss 2 ex conrail SD80MAC's! i was furious as the 80MAC's are a rare sight these days. and the sad part is it all happend on my birthday.
csx5000