Re: Is Being a Railfan Un-American?

[Anonymous]

My brother and I watched trains on a Saturday morning last November at the Vancouver, WA Amtrak station with no problems. We saw a Talgo passenger train arrive and depart and several freight trains and some switching operations. We did the usual rail fan things - photos, taking notes,checking Kalmbach guidebooks, running, shouting, and gesticulating wildly. There would have been plenty of oppportunity to question us. Because we were at an Amtrak station, all of our "running around" would have been on railroad property.

[OldArmy94]

A couple of things:

1. Railfans should fight any attempt to be forced to register with any law enforcement agency or any railroad, for that matter. A VOLUNTARY ID with a national railfanning organization, however, is a good idea. I am very much against government sponsored registration--it's a time-honored tactic utilized by totalitarian regimes and has no business in our land.

2. Isn't it best to railfan in groups in highly visible places? I think that it's more fun, anyway, and you are less likely to be accused of being a terrorist if you and your railfan buddies are together. Of course, I still believe you have the freedom to go alone any time you wish but that's just a suggestion.

This is a good discussion and I am pleased to see that railfans are sticking up for their rights to view and photograph trains from PUBLIC property.

[DougNash]

I think the recent TRAINS article about railfans is rubbish. This country has gotten totally paranoid about the littlest thing. Instead of worrrying why the fan is out takinbg pictures of locos or passenger cars, start worrying why and how 19 scumbags got in and out of this country multiple times undetected and then took advantage of how benevolent we are of "equal opportunity for all" and duped our own educational processes to study in flight school. Wake up...the streets aren't paved with gold anymore. They're so stupid anyway, they could have gone to STAPLES and bout MicroSoft Flight Simulator 2000 and saved a lot of time and effort.
True, a fan should ALWAYS make himself known on company property, and with the exception of 3 situations (the TRRA, BRC and JZ (Yugoslavia)) I was ALWAYS afforded an extra above board courtesy when I had visited the yard office and identified myself as an employee of another railroad, no matter WHICH country in the world I have been in.
And least we forget, only 14 years ago, it WAS totally dangerous to be a railfan in Eastern Euroopean countries under Communist rule. A little tactfulness, souveniers and employee interst would gain access to some places, but with thew caution it WAS forbidden to photograph certain railroad things (Bridges, tunnels, interlockings) but others were greatfully appreciated. As a few past TRAINS articles of Ron Zeil's adventures in steam-laden Russia mentioned, snapping flash bulbs in the faces of the Police or Milicia were NOT the way to go. We should use a little sense here, and prove to the right/wrong "tunnel mentality" cop world that being a railfan, while it does not fit their "security guidelines" ergo it MUST be wrong is a totally respectable pastime that can and should not be regulated by ANY government.

I've found the perfect use for Duct Tape...across Tom Ridge's mouth so he can't issue any more stupid dictums that have the potential to affect us in our hobbies.

[DougNash]

I think the recent TRAINS article about railfans is rubbish. This country has gotten totally paranoid about the littlest thing. Instead of worrrying why the fan is out takinbg pictures of locos or passenger cars, start worrying why and how 19 scumbags got in and out of this country multiple times undetected and then took advantage of how benevolent we are of "equal opportunity for all" and duped our own educational processes to study in flight school. Wake up...the streets aren't paved with gold anymore. They're so stupid anyway, they could have gone to STAPLES and bout MicroSoft Flight Simulator 2000 and saved a lot of time and effort.
True, a fan should ALWAYS make himself known on company property, and with the exception of 3 situations (the TRRA, BRC and JZ (Yugoslavia)) I was ALWAYS afforded an extra above board courtesy when I had visited the yard office and identified myself as an employee of another railroad, no matter WHICH country in the world I have been in.
And least we forget, only 14 years ago, it WAS totally dangerous to be a railfan in Eastern Euroopean countries under Communist rule. A little tactfulness, souveniers and employee interst would gain access to some places, but with thew caution it WAS forbidden to photograph certain railroad things (Bridges, tunnels, interlockings) but others were greatfully appreciated. As a few past TRAINS articles of Ron Zeil's adventures in steam-laden Russia mentioned, snapping flash bulbs in the faces of the Police or Milicia were NOT the way to go. We should use a little sense here, and prove to the right/wrong "tunnel mentality" cop world that being a railfan, while it does not fit their "security guidelines" ergo it MUST be wrong is a totally respectable pastime that can and should not be regulated by ANY government.

I've found the perfect use for Duct Tape...across Tom Ridge's mouth so he can't issue any more stupid dictums that have the potential to affect us in our hobbies.

[ironhorseman]

no, being a railfan is NOT un-amercian. i don't what word to use, but first we must DEFINE what un-american is. to me, un-american means burning of the stars and stripes. i love railroads and i love my country and i would never ever burn our flag even if i had a loaded gun to my head. this country was built on railroads. if you say being a railfan is un-american then you'd HAVE to say being a christian is un-Godly. see my point?

signed,
ironhorseman

[Anonymous]

Not being a railfan is un-american.
RS Gilbert www.railartist.com

[Anonymous]

I enjoyed “...a Railfan Un-American”, and it reminded me of an experience I had a long time ago.
One of my fondest memory as a young Peace Corps Volunteer in the late 60s was the sights, sounds and smell of coal-fired steam locomotives passing nearby my village in northern India. Numerous times each day local passenger, coal, express and freight trains broke the peace and calm of the village. Each had a unique rumble, or whistle and the ever present odor of sulfurous coal smoke as they passed bye.
Shortly after my arrival in Varanasi City, just across the Ganges river from the rail yard at Moghul Sarai, I was out photographing monuments and tombs of the ancient city. On the rail/auto bridge was a locomotive belching steam and smoke with a dozen bogies attached. I wanted that picture and started to move into position near the bridge for a better shot. As I climbed towards the bridge I caught sight of three figures moving with a very deliberate pace towards me. One figure was carrying an old British caliber .303 rifle with a bayonnete fixed, the others were armed with lathies, long spear-like clubs used for crowed control.
I was quickly informed that photography of the bridge is forbidden and I should move along or risk being arrested. Shortly after this incident I was visited by a deputy inspector of police. Over tea, he told me of a provision of the Defense of India Act which prohibits photography of bridges, locomotives and just about anything of importance. The local authorities would determine what is important. He added that I can be arrested and jailed without charge until the authorities were satisfied that I presented no threat to India. Over the next 18 months, the deputy would stop by my hut from time-to-time to remind me to be on my best behavior. I remember thinking, this would never happen in the United States of America.

John Paskevicz
Arlington Heights, Illinois

[Anonymous]

I just read the article. Perhaps James Slocum, Hal Carstens and officials from NMRA, NRHS and RLHS could contact the Citizen Corps and arrange for a "Railfans in Service" group?
Ed Ryan
Peoria, AZ

[ericsp]

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[Anonymous]

David Benton's letter hits the nail on the head. Railfans are citizens like others. They have rights to vote by choice, to spend or save, to have families or stay single, to be soldiers or civilians, to claim civil liberties and to guarantee these to others. In short, they are normal. Now, the local agents of police and other authorities are not always very wise, nor are they always well informed. They may be easily manipulated to become agents of repression, starting the slippery slope towards the totalitarianism you properly fear.

We throughout the non-US western world fear that the Iraq campaign, the political and military preparations, and the use of dis-information are all part of a program which is not democratically founded, and which has been carried through without a basis of international law (i.e. it is an illegal act of a small number of persons around the President, who have used their authority to create an atmosphere of fear and intolerance within the USA). Truth is then a major casualty, and a close neighbour of this is repression of non-conformist attitudes and behaviour. Railfans, I regret to suspect, probably come into that category: why aren't they at the ball game instead of standing waiting for freight trains in the desert! Totalitarian states of course need bruisers and 'rednecks' to carry out their dirty work, as indeed Saddam Hussein has known for some years.

The future is therefore unpromising, at least as long as the present White House administration believes it can ignore ethics, morality and international law in pursuing its own agenda, and to justify this uses the same manipulations as Huxley or Orwell parodied before them: the image of an external enemy is conjured up to justify repressive and manipulative measures at home.

I have cancelled my US trip planned for the summer. I cannot feel free travelling in a land whose leader ignores international law, and binding contractual obligations such as the United Nations Charter, to conduct a war of aggression no better than those he himself calls 'evil'.

Believe me, although this does not get through at present in US media, the immense and continuing protests in almost all states of the developed world show how widely this view is shared, that the leadership of the USA has, for reasons which are not really clear, embarked upon an unconstitutional and immoral campaign based upon a 'security' paranoia. This allows no place for me standing in the sunshine photographing trains.

I will follow you through 'Trains', with love and interest, and hope you will flourish and survive in proper well-informed constitutional freedom. The fight for that is now probably not only in the Persian Gulf, but at home. Wouldn't it be great if railfans headed up a fight for civil liberties and a well-ordered society?

[louisnash]

My grandfather used to do the same thing For the L&N RR. Back in the 70's my grandfather found many rails that were broken or pulled apart enough at joints in rail that would have caused a derailment. The L&N would always send him a letter thanking him plus $50.00 check for being those extra eyes. Mind you he did not work for the RR but that was a time in our society you had the good old fashioned railroader that knew everybody by name at trackside. My grandmother would even bring pops up to the MOW crew, or even train crew if they were stopped. Back in the Hobo days it was common for her to make some sandwiches for them as well.
About a year ago at my workplace, which is right beside NS tracks, the crossing bell quit working. The lights still worked just no bell. I went to the crossing to get the 1-800 number and the crossing number and proceeded to call NS. It took them 3 days before they came out to fix it. But I called. I didn't have to, but I did. But at times I get the idea what's the use. But I think what the crew would have to deal with if they had to deal with a fatality. I have talked to people that have encountered the same problem as you. If my grandfather called CSX right now would they be as generous as L&N was. I would hope so, But you never know. That's just the way all big corporate companies are now, not just railroad companies. They tell us to be vigilant (Homeland Security) but one day we all may do what you did and just not call. We'll let those defect detectors catch it if it makes it to one on time, or not report the crossing lights, or even report the signal lights because some dummy shot them out.
But my grandfather still waves trackside (he owns 120 acres of private, not public, land beside RR) and they all blow the whistle and wave the white towels as they pass by. They are all friends and some have even come out to visit him when they have the opportunity. I still photo trains there as well as video, and every crew that goes by blows the horn and waves their flag even with my camcorder on. seems like these guys aren't as paranoid as others I have seen posted here. They know they have good friends watching over them. And if they needed help we'd be there in a minute. Just a way to show our southern hospitality.

What a difference one day made in Sept. 2001 in all our lives. May God bless us that we get this war over (do what needs to be done) and hopefully one day get to a point we were before and be able to stop these discussion lists and talk about something enjoyable in these forums. But don't let those terrorists scare us or intimidate us.
LUKE 12:4 "Be not afraid of them that kill the body"

[Anonymous]

As a railfan/railroader I have split reactions to both sides of the issues. Since the Class 1 railroads have become impersonal and the local staffs such as towers and agents have long gone, sometimes it is the faithful railfan who hangs out at his favorite bridge or crossing is most intimately familiar with the environs and has spotted a problem and notified authorities such as law enforcement or railroad operations. I personally called CSX a couple of times after seeing track and signal problems. The reception was callous, cold and humiliating. I swore I'd never call again, and I didn't. One day while unloading a piece of equipment on an adjacent siding next to a CSX main line, a car came by with a failing bearing. I didn't waste the quarter on the call and that evening I learned the train derailed about 40 miles distant because of a bearing failure. It derailed just before passing a hot-box detector. They pulled that car out of the pile the next day.
A retired friend used to spend large portions of his days sitting trackside at a favorite crossing watching trains. Several times he spotted mechanical problems and notified local railroad offices befoe bigger problems occurred. He eventually got a hat and coat from the local railroad crews for his volunteer service. Such a small price considering the dramatic costs of a derailment. When the regional management changed he was visited by the railroad police and told not to come around. Now he sits down the street, silently watching as a car with a mechanical problem passes by. How much will his continued silence cost the railroad when the next derailment occurs because a broken brake beam, dropped coupler carrier or defective wheel passed him by and he didn't call under the threat of jail?
That is why a vigilant and trustworthy railfan has become an unacknowledged and unpaid but necessary part of the industry.
On the railfan side. My job takes me into a wide variety of industrial railroads, which could be classified as short lines. Railfans often visit such sites to take photos. I have witnessed them entering the property and climbing onto cars without ever letting anyone know they are around, just for that special picture. Seeking good pictures and the complementing egos have in some cases gotten way out of control. Railfans are welcomed by many of my clients as long as they check in at the office first, or let the switching crews know of their interest, but better than half don't. I have granted several permission to ride in locomotive cabs just to make sure they were safe ... and in a few cases good photos were provided. Nothing less than safety can be expected and the rights to trespass or ignore safety are not waived for someone who assumes his hobby automatically grants him rights to pursue a good photo.
Railroading is dangerous work. I would like to see the AAR issue a safety guide for railfans with some basic protocals of behavior, and for railroads and "Homeland Security" to acknowledge those who have demonstrated their understanding and safety/security skills.

Scott97

[Anonymous]

I am a British railway enthusiast , and speaking as someone who found and reported a broken rail on our main London to Birmingham line a few years ago (and certainly prevented a major accident as 80mph express passenger trains were passing over this every 10 minutes); I believe true enthusiasts are a great deterrent to "wrong doers" and can be very useful eyes and ears around railway locations. Please stop being neurotic about this and let some commonsense prevail.

[Anonymous]

SETTLE DOWN; DON'T GO POSTAL!!!!

[Anonymous]

I guess this is the right plave to vent steam about the un-american article. Well, I have been shooting trains onthe Wast Coast since Oct 1974 (It was an Amtrak train 14 in Oxnard). I have been shooting them ever since. Got published in the local camera club too. My feelings about restricting photographs of trains is totally un-American and really stupid. I was in Cajon Pass near Hwy 138 when a SF past by pulling a mixed consist. My friend and I were watching from the road when we spotted smoke from the brush. This was about 8:30 pm and quite dark. I told my friend to wait and see if he can get some attention while I investegated the smoke. Sure enough, the traction motor blowers blew out some hot carbon and started a fire. I was there just in time to put out the fire totally. I carry a shovel just for this reason. I got back to the road where there were two SF cinder dicks asking what was I doing on their property. I said that I was putting out a fire that their train caused. They did not seem to be too apprecicative for the service a railfan gave them. THis was not the only time this has occurred either. In the summer where the brush is tinder dry, we helped the Forestry Service put out another fire that we found. We had a jump on it to a point that the Forestry Dept needed to just mop up what was left. They were gratefull for our help. Again this was on National Forest public property. THis message is not to pat us on the back, but to show that railfains can and do provide a service beyond photographing trains. Just as the other posts read, if a terrorist wanted to destroy anything, this country would be hard pressed to stop a determined terrorist. We must keep ever vigilant and we, as railfans, can perform this service without being forced to restrict out movements. I know there are railfans who take advantage of this but, by and large, the vast majority are good law-abiding citizens who love our country, but if this type of restrictions continue and the harrassment prevails than we are no better than the USSR and other countries that restrict their citizens by force. I will continue to photograph trains because it is my right to do so!
Bill Krause railfan-alcofan

[edblysard]

Yes, pretty much. Limit the information the general populace has access to, then release only the approved version for mass readership. Both the nationalist and the socialist use this approach very efficently. Which is why the right to participate in and on a forum like this one is so important. Again, be careful what you belive. Just because its written in a major publication dosnt make it any more truthful or factual. Magazines, like Trains, have to rely on the information their reporters gather, and then rely on the editors to check the info and the story. So bias can creep in, even with the best of intentions. I just read the UTU monthly proproganda newspaper, no diffrent than what the BLE issues, just flop the names around. View things with a somewhat critical eye.
No, Trains isnt un-american for printing maps or listing classification yards. The information isnt un-anything, it what someone choses to do with it that is. And, for the most part, your goverment couldnt limit that info any more than it could stop the drug traffic. Notice any big drug bust lately? So if they cant keep the drug lords from crossing the borders at will, what in the world makes them think they can stop a dedicated terrorist?
Ed

[Anonymous]

I'm new to this so I don't know how to write without "replying"
that said, where does this all stop?
Is Trains un-american for printing "Map of the Month"??
A list of classification yards! indeed, useful information.
Close the library of congress??
Isn't this how nazi germany got underway???

[ericsp]

Below is response to some of wallywalkabout's points.

1st and 2nd points.
I don't think that most (if any) of people doing the posting are saying that they should be allowed on private property. They are saying that they should be allowed to take pictures from public property, or from private property if they have the owners permission.

4th Point
Also, taking pictures of someones backyard picnic is not quite a correct analogy for taking pictures of trains from public property. Taking pictures of someones backyard picnic is analogous to going into an engine house and taking pictures there, without permission.

[Anonymous]

To me, In the United States, I lived here for 14
1/2 years. (im 14 1/2) If i wanted to railfan, and i do, i go railfaning. If i wanted to be ruled over i go to a different country, well Im staying in the United Sttes to stay Free.
Railfans are acualy protecting America by looking for Sucpisous acts or people. We are not harming the railroad Or Our Great country, W

[ericsp]

I should point out that I was on public property while watching the trains.

[ericsp]

While I do think that the current administration is probably going overboard in some areas of security, they are not any worse than many other administrations. For decades now most Presidential administrations have been trying to take away freedom. It is just that previously they were not putting restrictions on photography.

Also, are the actions taken by the railroads and police in the article Presidential directives, or are they the result of some overzealous people. Railroad police have driven by me a few times while I was watching trains at the local yard and nobody has come to talk with me.

We seem to be making many assumptions here. I think it is time we find out the facts. Also, if we do this, then we can tell our representative exactly where the government is going wrong.

[edblysard]

Hey there Brian,
Let you in on a secret, its a ego rush for us, also. Kinda like, "look what I get to play with all day long, and they pay me too!" My first cab ride, before I went railroading, was courtesy of a english engineer, on a passanger train from London to some little village my Dad wanted to visit. Dad talked to "Driver" into letting me ride in the cab till we got to the first station. The guy was a total pro, let me sit in the seat, and "run" the train. Of course, he was right behind me, and I didnt get to move any of the controls, but just getting to sit there was so cool. But I think it was his attitude, more than anything else, that made me want to do that for a living. He was letting a kid have fun, but was also teaching me at the same time. He pointed at the speed indicator, and made sure I understood we couldnt let it go past the setting he had. He never mentioned he could get fired for speeding, but said" we dont want to upset anyones tea, now, would we?" He was more concerned with his passengers, and their comfort, than getting in trouble. Like I said, a total pro. I even remember his name, Mr. R. Fells. So I dont mind letting kids gets a taste of what its like, and we try hard to impress on them that, when they are watching trains, remember to respect the train, and the cars, and to keep at least 50 feet away. When we see them again, they wave, jump up and down, and grin ear to ear, from 50 feet away.
Hope your kids and you get a cab ride, it will make the video games seem real dull.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

I noticed you guys mutter a lot. And sigh, and throw up your hands, whats up with that? Low frustration level?
Ha ha...

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[louisnash]

Hey Ed. It's guys like you that make a childhood great if you grew up around trains. When I was a child and they still had cabooses(sigh)it was a great thing to be invited up inside. I actually enjoyed the caboose a lot better than the loco. You guys take a risk doing what you do by allowing people up there, but I would say that every train crew that has done that was to ever be found out the railroad probably wouldn't have many employees left. But thanks for keeping that tradition alive. Trains have been an amazement to our society well over a hundred years to the children and the adults(especially the children). And you guys/gals know who is legit or not. One day (hopefully) we will be able to get to a point in our lives we don't need a forum like this and we can enjoy the iron horse again. But don't stop the tradition. There are a lot of children out there that love people like you. It's one of those freedoms that we can take advantage of by waving at you guys and having you blow the horn or wave a white flag or towel at us. That still happens here in Ky. With me and my 2 young boys.
Brian (North Ky)

[Anonymous]

Ed, I NEVER get bored in the cab. Much of my time is spent muttering to myself about the crazy move my barmy foreman just made. (ha!)

[edblysard]

Hi Joe,
My engineer lets me run when we are out in the weeds, thats how most people learn anyway. And even though we have switch motors, they have 1500 hp each, and we use MUs, so thats 3000 horses, and thats a lots more than you camero or vette ever had. But it also makes you respect the good engineers, because it can get away from you real fast, with all that weight behind you. So smooth stops and starts suddenly become more of a art. You get to appericate their skill a lot more when you try it, and darn near suck out a drawbar. Or you try stopping, and after everything quits banging into your butt, you can see you engineer grinning, because he knew you were gonna blow it, and he had a good handhold, didnt even spill his coffee.
They all say its really boreing in the cab, but I noticed none of them ever volunteer to come back to the ground...
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Where can he go with it? And the hogger is standing right there, I know where the emergency fuel cut off is, both of them, and we can allways plug it, blow the emergency brakes.
The reverser isnt in, its in my hands or the engineers, so hes stuck in netural anyway.
Besides, most terrorist dont bring their kids.
Ed

[Anonymous]

I don't believe in allowing people to rev up the locomotive! How do you know who is a railfan and who is a terrorist looking for easy access?

[sooblue]

Hi Ed,
You can't just go up to a stopped train and expect to get invited on in. Especially now with all the hoopla about trespessing etc. I would be afraid to even drive down the access Rd to a yard office to ask for a tour. How do you get the chance to get up close?
Sooblue