Re: Is Being a Railfan Un-American?

[jamesedwbradley]

I note the above article in April TRAINS. It's necessary to consider both the railroads' position and that of us loyal American citizens. I firmly believe one good solution, not mentioned in article, is for organized visits to rail property organized in advance, of course, as many have been through the years; this will help solve the dillemma for both sides. BUT, NOW, EACH MEMBER OF THE PARTY SHOULD BE PREVIOUSLY KNOWN TO THE ORGANIZER(S). I brought this up in late 2001 at our NRHS Board of Directors' Meeting. Until the situation is resolved, we fans must be patient and think how we must appear to non-fans in light of 9-11. One question: How did all the fine photos we see, taken DURING WWII, get taken?
There was at least as much reason to question rail photography then. Meanwhile, read the previous posts and their "war stories"!
James E. Bradley, Secretary, Hawk Mountain Chapter, National Railway Historical Society.

[Anonymous]

I understand that you should stay off of railroad property. I do not understand or agree with the goverment restricting photography of anything while on public property or one private property wtih owners permission.
In central Illinois there are several prime spots the I can take photo's of UP or NS while on private property that the owners gave permission to occupy.
I remember a quote from a most famous person from the past who stated ...."anyone who may trade any freedom for security deserves nether". This famous stateman was B. Franklin.
I'm afraid of my fellow americans restricting my fredom more that the terrorists.
The artical in April Trains recalls WWII America and that the restriction were lifted after the war. When will this war on terror be over?

[Anonymous]

I'm very sorry, but the solution is to tell the police and everyone else involved to leave you alone. The railroads have every right to keep any non-employee off their property. I support this, and do not trespass. They nor the federal government have no right whatsoever to say anything to anyone about photographing or watching their operations from public property. The idea that merely photographing a train is somehow dangerous to national security is so pathetic it would be laughable if weren't so frightening. I was watching the Today Show on NBC the other morning. Katie Couric had on retired USAF General Barry McAffery. They had a big map of the Iraq area. General McAffery proceeded to tell Katie on live national TV all about where our troops, ships, and planes are, how many, where they were most likely to attack Iraq if there is a war, when the war might start, what tactics they would most likely use, what sorts of weapons they have, etc. He pointed it all out on the map. And WE'RE a threat to national security taking pictures of trains from public property? Come on. We are kidding, right??? If terrorists want to blow trains up, there are a million places to watch them first from well out of view of any security agency, and not from lineside with a camera. Shall we chase people out of malls, churches, and restaurants too? Arrest the photographers at the ballparks this summer?

This is not about national security. This is about an overzealous, ignorant federal agency sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. It is about people in the railroad industry who for whatever reason have never liked the railfan community using post 9-11 jitters to pay the fan community out.

If I am asked to move from public property I will politely refuse, and politely and unresistingly accept being arrested. Then I will produce the Honorable Discharge from the US Navy I have including service in the last Gulf war. Then I will retain an attorney and sue the crap put of the US Government and any other agency involved in my false arrest and the violation of my rights under the US Constitution, rights for ALL Americans I swore to protect and fought to defend.

Do not allow yourselves to be intimidated. What is happening is illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional, and as loyal American citizens we have a moral duty not to allow the Constitution to be subverted.

Paul W. Burgess
Homewood, IL

[Anonymous]

Well said, Paul. The current climate of paranoia and the existence of overzealous bearucrats is a far greater and more subtle threat to our freedoms than any Al Caeda zealot with explosives.
We will come to view restriction and control as "normal" and "in our best interest" and our freedoms will be slowly ground away. Whether the freedom is posession of firearms or involvement in railfanning it will be at the whim of a beaurocrat.
The article pointed out that several railroaders consider fans a valuable resource to be used as eyes and ears for the physical plant. I am surprised that more railroads don't share that view. Who would be more motivated, an involved railfan looking at "their" railroad or an hourly employee in the security department?
By the way, do you suppose that we, as subscribers to TRAINS, will become "suspects" in some database? Paranoid? Perhaps. But look at what the airlines are doing with the new "profile" system being developed for air travelers. Reportedly, they will search the same databases a credit card company would to determine credit scores, among others.
And we thought 1984 was just a novel. It was prophesy.
Thanks,
Charles Kneipp
Keithville, LA
p.s. To any beaurocrats snooping, yes I'm talking about you. If the shoe fits...
By the way, beaurocrat, I was in the Navy and my prints should be of file with the Defense Department. Just thought I would help you out.

[Anonymous]

I think the problem can be fixed. All you have to do is just use some common sense. 1)Don't go onto railroad Property. 2)If you do get "Talked To" on public property treat the officer as a human too.
They're just out doin' thier jobs too. 3)If you are the member of a railroad club you might want to think about organizing what I Call a "Security and Safety Summit. My local train group had one tonight (3/1). It was a sucsessful endeavour and by the time it was over we had all been enlightened to what each other does for a living/hobby. I think railfanning is "FAR" from Un-American! You couldn't be any more American than to stand by and watch a train pass.

[edblysard]

Wow, and I thought my post stired up the crap...
Go sic'em Paul, we will scrap up the bail money somehow.
In all seriousnes, as both a fan and a railroader, I can tell you that most of us, (railroaders) dont mind one bit. It the one bad appple story though. And yes, some of the federal agencies are over reacting and using 9 11 as a excuse to abuse their new powers. The only way to stop them is to use your voice, and the loudest voice you can use is your vote. Let your elected representives know you intend to use it, and use it loudly. The first time I heard the phrase "Homeland Security" all I could equate it with was KGB, or SS. It just boggled my mind that Americans would allow something that dangerous to become a part of this country. No, you will never stop a determined terrorist, we proved that in WWII, when we employed the same tatics in Europe. Yes, I am more afraid of the new national police that the terrorist, mainly because the SS/KGB now wears a little American Flag in their lapel, and thinks he is doing the "right" thing. The fear of having "them" come check "us" out, and maby arrest us as being unloyal, is exactly how the SS/KGB held so much power, so long. Stand up and speak, tell washington you peferred the old America, where you were innocent untill proven guilty, not suspect till they can figure out a way to arrest you. Its your country, not theirs. We have allowed our national fear of a repeat performance to allow our goverment to proceed with the concept that we, somehow, are to stupid or not capable of protecting ourselves, and somehow we need them to do it for us. Horse crap. Tell that to the guy who said "lets roll", how many lives did those guys save?. Thats what American do, not spy on each other, or harrass some one whos only crime is to like watching trains. Any useful info the terrorist need is free, on the web, or avaiable at the public library. Your Constitution says you can use public property, thats why its called "public" property, instead of restricted property. Stand still, do nothing, keep quite, and sure as shooting, you will lose the very things we have fought so hard and long for, Liberity.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[edblysard]

Forgot to add, yes, good idea the poster had, organize a club, or if you belong to one now, go speak with you local railroad or the division super, sit down together and see what you can get accomplished. If Flationia (the middle of nowhere) in Texas can get UP to ok a train watching pavalion in town, I bet you and your local super can get as much, maby even more done. Contact your local Operation Lifesaver group, see if they can help. Talk to your mayor, or city councile or selectmen, who knows, they and the railroad may just like the idea. If there is a chapter of the NHRS around where you live, go talk to them. Like I said, griping without action gets you nothing. The worst they could say is no...
Ed

[Anonymous]

As soon as "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union......" replaces "I the government, in order to grow and control you morons"..........again.

[Anonymous]

"By the way, do you suppose that we, as subscribers to TRAINS, will become "suspects" in some database? Paranoid? Perhaps"

There is a fine line between paranoid and realism and brother, you are far from crossing it. The internet itself is a gargantuan profiler but it started way before that. Ever wonder why that junk mail that showed up in your snail mail box was different than your brothers? It sure isn't coincidence.

Go on the internet to some site that tells you how to build a bomb or anything else that might be "suspicious" and see if you aren't answering a suits questions the next day or soon thereafter.

[Anonymous]

"The first time I heard the phrase "Homeland Security" all I could equate it with was KGB, or SS"

The first time I heard this "new" term the very first thought that went through my head was "Oh shi*" sure sounded a lot like Fatherland to me and is now looking like it to. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a duck, which is what we had all better practice doing.

[edblysard]

What about the Bund?
Theres a scary thought...

[Anonymous]

Hello to all the railfanners out there...
I don't complain about much, and I'm new to the world of railfanning myself, but the article in this months Trains magazine has got me a little upset. I agree with the view most other people in the forum have--the government is going overboard with this anit-terrorim crap! Its getting so bad that people will never fly again, trains will stop rolling, and the high fuel prices will choke trucking to a halt. I enjoy all types of transportation...(mostly aviation) but the railroads interest me too, and now the U.S. government is trying to regulate that. So what do they want us to do...sit at home all day and worry about what is going on outside our doors? I understand the need for security, but you know what, if these so called "Security" agencies were doing their job prior to 9/11 we wouldn't have this mess! So much for the Constitution and all the veterans who gave their lives for freedom in this country--it is almost non-existent now. I, too am a former Marine and it saddens me to know that this country has been reduced to this new communistic democracy where the government feels they need to know everything about everybody and tells everyone what they can and can't do. I guess my children will never get to see a train, airplane, ship, or truck up close as I did when I was young...and how about the people who operate these monster machines...is the government going to evaluate every aspect of their lives (including their financial status?) I just wish we could all step back by about 20 years...when life was normal! I guess we just have to deal with all this now and get used to it.
Carrick

[Anonymous]

I have a question for all the railfans. Has anyone been arrested for watching or taking pictures on Pubilic property? I do not mean questioned I mean arrested? For that matter have you heard of or been Arrested for watching on Private Railroad property? I hear a lot of talk, but has anyone out there been Arrested for being a Railfan??
TIM A

[Anonymous]

arrested no.Asked to leave railroad property by employee yes.But as far as railfanning being unamerican is crazy. Not when here in ohio itself you have bellevue(NS)Fostoria(csxns)and deshler(csx) all working to attract railfans.since the ironhorse was invented people came from all around to see what the train brought in.passive or very active I think everyone was or is a railfan at one time or another.

[Anonymous]

Not exactly a reply to anything already written, rather a reply to the article in the April issue of Trains. At no time did I ever consider myself UnAmerican, before 9-11 and after 9-11. I do a lot of railfanning, taking photos and shooting video.. even produce train videos for sale. I'm amazed that such a term would even be considered for a true railfanner. I see what's going on in this country in the name of "Liberalism," abortion, child pornography, etc.,etc., and this is considered to be the American way in the land of the free. But heaven forbid that a couple of old "farts" should stand near the rails to admire and take photos of these majestic behemoths. I guess I am somewhat blessed in my neck of the woods (extreme Northern Ohio), our railfanning group has never been hassled. On occasion police have stopped to ask what's going on; and when told, smile, greet us with a "Have a nice day," and drive off. Infact,
more often than not, the locomotive engineers greet us with a few toots of the horn.. all of which is what makes this such a great country.
Happy to be a Real American!

[Anonymous]

GOOD question! Answer: Nope!!! Been doing
a great deal of railfanning since retiring nearly six years ago. And, to be honest, did my railfanning on public AND private (RR) property.
Never had a problem. Been asked what I'm doing, why I'm there. Gave an honest answer and was told simply to be careful and/or "Have a nice day." One thing for sure, I am not going to lose any sleep over all of this... nor am I going to stop doing what I have enjoyed doing. Infact,
I was out early this morning video taping trains along the "Water Level Route" (NS) and got three
nice ones before departing for church.
I said it before and I'll say it again: "It's great to be an American!"

[Anonymous]

We weren't that paranoid during WWII. There was probably not all the vadalism and graffiti. It was a quieter more innocent time. We have been tearing things up for years,there is no respect anymore. 9/11? Is it a well needed excuse to keep railfans out of their hair?
When I railfanned heavily for about eight years I got talked to my railroad police one time. Sounds like things are a lot worse today.

[Anonymous]

I see the railroads point, but also see the our point. I think the railroads should set up a system or number to call, so railfans like us could give them our names, tag number and any other information they need, so we can continue to do what we love and they will know, right off that were not a threat to them and that were often there eyes and ears for problems, they may not see.

Thomas,
Huntsville, AL

[louisnash]

This is not a reply but a word to say that I agree with Paul B. Maybe they (OUR Government) should start telling anyone not to take pictures of our national landmarks. Maybe those pictures could get into the wrong hands. OH! I forgot. All a terrorist has to do is watch CNN,TLC,Discovery Channel,etc. to find out about our national security. They tell everything. I can't see what the big deal is. A railfan is the railroads friend and if anyhthing looked suspicious they would be the first to report it. We are losing our freedom to have hobbies. Maybe OUR GOVERNMENT needs to let us live our daily lives as normal as we did before like they want us to and OUR GOVERNMENT needs to get out there and find the threat and and get rid of it. Find the problem(terrorist) and leave us alone.Let's close down the tourist railroads as well and the museums, Lord knows what impact our pictures might have then. It's just amazing that they haven't yet. If the people that run our government had any sense to them they would start shutting down the TV stations that tell you everyday what a terrorist needs to know. It's just amazing. They are worried about us but not ABC,CBS,NBC,CNN,FOX,TLC,Discovery Channel,etc. They are doing far more damage to our society than we would even dream of. It's OUR GOVERNMENT not theirs, they are elected by us and it is our constitution. We have the right to be heard and take pictures, not on RR private property, but we have that right. Thank-you Brian Gregg

[Anonymous]

I totally agree with what this gentleman said and he is absolutely right. Lets start questioning the Baseball photographers as well. My brother was in the Marine Corp, my Dad was in veitnam for four tours, my Grandfather was in WWII, our freedom should not be taken away. I also agree with not trespassing on Railroad property, but it isn't fair that we get chased away from stations and platforms. I worked with BNSF and Metrolink on there Christmas trains and I will say that Railfans are pretty good people.

Andy
from North Hills CA.

[wabash1]

Well paul, this is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard. 1st off it dont matter to me that you was in the last gulf war, so was my brother and we dont brag about that. The mear fact that It is not public property should tell you that if we dont want you around you should leave. As a citizen of this country it dont give you any rights to be on railroad property. As a tax payer myself who by rights own part of our military dont give me the right just to go on any base in this country. I can get on military instalations if my sponser signs for me. Now look at it from my view point. I dont go to work looking to get killed and i am not infavore of having anyone mess with the tracks. In fact the railroad i work for has people patroling the rails 24hrs a day. So dont come down here with that holyer than thou attitude that i can and i will do as i please around railroad tracks. The constitution did not give you this right and if its my train and my life then this overzealous engineer sees you messing around the tracks and my manditory directive from my powers to be says have you arrested. then i will call and have you arrested. And it is guys like you that do make it harder for the rest of the railfans. I myself dont like railfans with cameras as they take pictures of things that either i or my crew members might be doing wrong and can get us fired.

[Anonymous]

Let's face up to the bottom line, the average railfan is not an arab. Why don't we just deport this group of people, and let Americans get on with their lives. I didn't spend my time in the Corps so I could be restricted from taking rail photos on account of some rag head.

[Anonymous]

Race should not be brought into this conversation.I know alot of hard working Americans of all nationallities.Terrorism comes in many forms.It could be some teenagers going out on a friday night because they have nothing better to do.Being a railfan and an american we should be on the lookout for anyone who doesn't belong.The people of the railroads have a right to do their jobs as best as they can.As railfans we can be the extra eyes and ears to help them.
thank you
Joe

[Anonymous]

HERE! HERE!

[Anonymous]

As usual, it boils down to common sense, something that seems to be in short supply lately.
Even before 9-11, there were things I did (and still do) to make myself less conspicuous around the tracks. I stick to public property, I try to stay highly visible (in view of a major highway, businesses, etc.), I bring along old pictures I've taken to prove I've been doing this as a hobby for a long time, I bring along a book about something other than trains to read (nothing says non-Muslim extremist like a Bible or Luther's catechism), and I usually keep a spare bottle of water, soda, or juice around to offer to an officer in case one happens to stop. This is usually a well-received gesture, especially in the summer.
I guess my point is that some people deserve to have their rights limited (i.e. - breaking the law by tresspassing, etc.), but for those of us who choose to obey the law, not because some bureaucrat shoves them in our faces but because we have respect for others, then this should be a non-issue. Hasn't everyone been saying the best thing to do to prevent terrorism is to go about your lives as usual? Well that's what I intend to do, and if someone has a problem with this hobby, then that's their problem, but there's nothing they can do to make me stop watching trains as a good, honest leisure-time activity.

Bryant Kaden
Fremont, NE

[Anonymous]

Seig Heil Mein Ashcroft!!!!! The Federalized BUMBLING IDIOTS have nothing better to do than to go after an easy target! I think we're now an official police state...no telling what the Nazi's will have in store for the American public down the road.

[Anonymous]

Hey bonehead - he said he was not on RR property, read before you post.

I also have felt that Office of Homeland Stupidity is the first step of a slippery slide towards Facism.

[Anonymous]

In Italy, where I live, people are currently trying to stop military trains from rolling into Camp Derby and other bases in my country. Obviously, THEY ARE NOT RAILFANS. They only see the railroad being used for military purposes. That doesn't necessarily mean they will not complain about poor train service the following morning, when the same people commute!
As a railfan, I am NOT allowed to shoot at military trains, but I am increasingly being perceived as a "strange folk" even when I try to take a good shot at a train.

[louisnash]

Hey railroad man. One day you might need the assistance of one of those railfans out there on the road. Whether you're sick or in an accident. So just calm down already. Another thing if you are that good of a railroad man then you shouldn't be worried about doing things wrong to get you fired if your picture is taken. If you hate railfans that bad why are you on this internet site. It is for railfans> Unbelievable!!!

[Anonymous]

As a railfan of some 50 years standing, and a retired railroader with 34 years in management (SR & CSX), I can understand both sides. When I travel AMTRAK, which is often, I take two suspicious objects, a camera, and a pocket scanner. Ordinarily, I don't take very many pictures of trains as I can find better ones than I can take, on the Internet. However, I would submit that a good solution would be for Railfan's to register with their preferred road, with law enforcement providing some of the expense. A simple photo-ID with the toll free number of the preferred road on it would accomplish several things at once. If a railfan were detained, he would have proper "papers" so that the matter could be settled quickly. Secondly, if the railfan saw anything unusual or suspicious, he would have a number to call to report it. I submit that there are very few, if any other industries, that have such a loyal group of "spies" interested in them. If I see somebody climbing on the Ortega R. bridge (Jacksonville, FL, where I live), you better believe I am going to report him, unless I know it is a rail worker.
I use a scanner when traveling just so I know what the delays are, and purposely do not monitor the on-board frequency which is a private channel and should be honored as such.

J. H. Sullivan, P.E. (retired)