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Have You had a Rude Railfan-Railroader Experience?

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 13, 2005 12:44 AM
If you come north to Canada, don't make me "unite to protect the company's interests" and have your***hauled off the property in the back of a police car. I will truly enjoy it.

CN and CP both expect us to turn in any and all trespassers. "Access to the workplace" comes to mind, and YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY!

Obviously there is some kind of attitude problem going on here if you get your kicks from turning in railroaders while they are doing their jobs.

I suspect that particular GCOR rule is meant to cover passenger service, not some poor bloke pounding the lead in freight only territory.

Stay away from my rail yard, and don't tell a railroader how to do his job.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 9:26 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .
YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want.


Lotus -

I am always amused when someone says they have the "right to take pictures". Please show me where that right is published in the law. It isn't in the U.S. Constitution, nor is it in the Constitution of any state that I am aware of. Also, such a right is not granted by staute.

The simple fact is that you have a qualified right to take photographs given to you under the First Amendment. Notice I said qualified. Our rights to free speech are delineated by the Supreme Court depending upon the type of forum involved and the type of speech.

For example a public forum such as a street corner or public park is held to have the least restriction while military bases, and industries (Such as Railroads) are held to be private forums where speech can be completely restricted. Other areas such as shopping malls and commercial areas are deemed semi-public forums and have a middle level of restriction.

Also, the type of speech is subject to analysis. For example, dangerous speech such as that which incites violence can be completely restricted (note that there are even more restrictions on speech of this type since 9-11). More customary speech is less restricted and political speech is particularly protected.

So, as you can see, you don't have an absolute right to take photos on even public property. I haven't even gotten into the possibilities of civil lawsuits based upon use of photos of people without their permission which is a completely separate area of the law concerning individual privacy.

It is always better to use courtesy and caution, than it is to assert a "right" which in fact is not absolute.

LC
So, should I go and bug the yardmaster before I take some shots of his crew boarding a train, or stop a train to ask the engineer? No, I do not see a restricted right to take pictures from public property. Basically I can encroach upon the railroads by trespassing, just as I can encroach on someone by disturbing the peace, which means we don't have total free speech, you can't yell fire in a crowded room. Now show me the law that enables some jerk to decide he doesn't want to be in my picture. Why can he encroach on me and take my film? The only reason we don't have total free speech is that it encroaches on someone else’s rights, or may be dangerous to our people; other than that I can say anything I want.
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Posted by adrianspeeder on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 9:16 PM
This thread is a good one...



Adrianspeeder

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Posted by Jordan6 on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 9:08 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Chris...
Dont blink!

Daniel...
You forgot the beginning of that section of the GCOR....


1.6 Conduct
Employees must not be:

Careless of the safety of themselves or others
Negligent
Insubordinate
Dishonest
Immoral
Quarrelsome
or
Discourteous


Seems you left out the first few lines, most importantly the one about safety of themselves, and others...you fall into the "others" category.

Negligent...means I can’t turn a blind eye to your trespassing.

Insubordinate...I have a standing General Order to report any trespasser, any person acting suspicious, and any person taking photos of railroad equipment, tracks, bridges, structures and employees...guess I have no choice but to report you now, wouldn’t want to violate the GCOR and be insubordinate and ignore a General Order, would I...

Ed[:D]



You seriously have a general order that says we have to report people taking photos of equipment and stuff?!! Is that a system or division general order? what number?
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 9:01 PM
Hmm! I would like to see you jump off the end of a train and stop me! Why can't I take pictures? I do have that right. Since, nobody has the right to steal my camera, or film.
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Posted by wabash1 on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 8:50 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .
YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want.


I will say this you dont need my permission to take pictures but if my picture is taken by your camera then i will go to the extra trouble and get the camera or the film. Trust me i will win.
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Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 6:08 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by exPalaceDog

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainboyH16-44

Remember, ALWAYS wave to the engineer, up here I always get a nice friendly wave back, once he opened the window in -20 just to wave at me! I love Canada....
Matthew


You might want to think twice about that advice. It is hard for an engineer to know whether someone is trying to wave or trying to throw a rock at the engine.

Have fun


I suppose it depends on the way the arm goes. If the arm goes from side to side-that is a wave, if the arm moves fast toward the engineer's direction-might be an airborne object enroute.[:D]
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 5:32 PM
John, do you ever still come down here to railfan? If so, have we met? I live in Schulenburg and do all of my railfanning in Flatonia.

Oh, and for the record, no, I've never had a bad railfan-railroader experience. I stay on my side of the road.

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Posted by AztecEagle on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 4:34 PM
I used to live in Flatonia,Texas,and I was Railfanning at least a good 10 Years before trains Magazine discovered it.One Friday Night,I walked up to the Tower because I had the feeling that a Northbound Train was coming on the Shiner Branch.I sat down at side facing the Tracks when some Petty Official comes out and tells me "BOY!!(I was 29 at the time!!)YOU GET THE HELL OUTA HERE!!YOU AIN'T GOT NO D@MN BIDNESS AT THIS TOWER!!GIT ON OUTA HERE OR I'M CALLING THE COPS!!".So,I started walking towards the West and the side road that ran by it when he comes out again "I JUST CALLED THE COPS!!THEY'LL BE HERE IN ABOUT FIVE MINUTES!!",so I turned around and walked back towards town.Of course,the Cops never showed up.For the most part,the Crews at Tower 3 in Flatonia were usually friendly.In fact,I used to drink Beer with two retired Towermen pretty regullary.
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Posted by exPalaceDog on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 4:24 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by trainboyH16-44

Remember, ALWAYS wave to the engineer, up here I always get a nice friendly wave back, once he opened the window in -20 just to wave at me! I love Canada....
Matthew


You might want to think twice about that advice. It is hard for an engineer to know whether someone is trying to wave or trying to throw a rock at the engine.

Have fun
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Posted by trainboyH16-44 on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 3:47 PM
Remember, ALWAYS wave to the engineer, up here I always get a nice friendly wave back, once he opened the window in -20 just to wave at me! I love Canada....
Matthew

Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296

Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:17 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

The most rude experience I have had with a railfan was in 1979 at Edelstein Hill, just west of Chilicothe, Il. on the ATSF.

The TPW was hosting 765 the Nickle Plate Berkshire for weekend trips. A carload of buddies drove to Peoria and during a lull we drove to Edelstein.

A very well know railfan, tons of pictures published over the years was there...and let everyone know who he was. He then proceeded to take out a saw and cut down a small tree (3" diameter) that was in his view.

Is it any wonder that that area is now fenced off and posted "No Trespassing"?

Can you believe the nerve of the owners? Keeping railfans off of their property? Tisk, Tisk.

ed


Hullihan's(sp?) Curve? a few more "bad" railfans finally broke the straw there 5-10 years back. littering, yelling, scared the poor old lady that lives there, threatened her, spun thier tires when they left, threw rocks all over her house.... The fence was up within a week. IIRC

there went one of the best shots in Chilli-Edelstien
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 4:53 AM
MMM! Just reading this makes me think that you all need to take a chill pill (or MAYBE A WHOLE BOTTLE).
I am a railroader and a fan too!!!!!
The last thing that a Railroader wants is to have some foamer throwing qoutes from the GCOR in their face, are you just trying to make a bad situation worse? I can't believe that fans are thinking that they'd take copies along with them on shoots. Like Wabash1 I don't worlk under GCOR (they don't exist "down under").
Don't you need to get a signed disclaimer from a person before you publish a photo (I don't know US law), regardless of whether you are on Public or Private property? How can a Engineer tell whether you are taking a photo for your own collection or are going to submit it to a mag like trains.
WE don't have Railway Police in AUS...Train crews call Control (Dispatcher) and they call out the real police. And they don't like wasting their time. Believe me on that one...I found out the hard way at 17.
We all can remember a bad experience with Railroaders, but did you ever stop to think that they might have had one in return. Just south of Sydney (50 miles) lies a small town called Picton. A heritage listed station, beautiful box with Armstrong levers (some signals are still semaphores...in 2005). The point to all this was that nearly ten years ago a tour was being run to welcome a diesel back into service (after restoration {A GE / ALCO cab unit) and the train was pulled into the siding to let a ten wheeler take on water. People where just walking over both main tracks and when the tower operator asked several people to get back up on the platform, they told him to "Get F#@---". Nowadays Railfans aren't allowed within a mile of the place.
Can't everybody just get along?
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:57 AM
People, people, we need to take a chill pill!

I posted some verbatim quotes from the General Code of Operating Rules primarily for the railfans of this forum to see (the railroaders already know their rules). I get flamed, broiled, and served in a delightful hollandaise sauce with seasonal veggies for doing so, then railroaders complain about railfans, railfans complain about railfans, railfans argue about constitutional rights, railroaders complain about railfans exercising constitutional rights, and enough flaming goes on to heat my house through winter (I live in southern California)!

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 10, 2005 10:37 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Well here's my awful RR employee story:

This RR guy comes to pick me up at my house at like 9 AM to show me around the yard and areas he works, pet a locomotive and meet the folks he works with, have lunch and even go see thye circus train......Can you believe that...9AM!!! The nerve.....

Dan


You mean he left out the fuel rack and the sand station? How could he? [;)]



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Posted by CopCarSS on Monday, October 10, 2005 8:50 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by nikoncraig

Chris,
I read your experience at Galesburg and the fellow that had to get that "perfect" shot, well you may have run into those, " PROFESSIONAL RAILFANS."
Craig S. Cloud


Craig...I'm sure he was. With the exception of myself, I don't know many amateur railfans that shoot medium format. I tried looking around the magazines right after that trying to determine who he was, or who he was shooting for. I never saw the shot that spoiled everyone elses picture, so I never was able to figure it out.

To me, professionalism goes beyond having a press pass, a big camera and a big name. I shoot a lot of high school basketball out here, and I try to be aware of staying out of other people's shots as much as possible. The same holds true when I shot the Women's US Open down at Cherry Hills this year. I went on practice days when anyone could and did bring their cameras. Here again, wven though I was shooting with a 300mm f2.8 L IS (not the biggest in Canon's****nal, but enough to attract attention) I still did my best to avoid being in photos.

Professionalism, especially in a specialty hobby, means at least a modicum of courtesy. Railfans are a fairly tight knit bunch. I'm sure some people knew who this turkey was at Galesburg, and probably had a lot of the same feelings I did. He literally messed up 100s of peoples' photos. I usually don't hold grudges, but this one still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Thanks for the comments, and [#welcome] to the forum! Stop by the Diner and I'll buy you a cup of coffee, even if you do use that "other" camera brand! [:D][:p][}:)]

-Chris
West Chicago, IL
Christopher May Fine Art Photography

"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 11:30 PM
Chris,
I read your experience at Galesburg and the fellow that had to get that "perfect" shot, well you may have run into those, " PROFESSIONAL RAILFANS."
Craig S. Cloud
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Posted by BudKarr on Sunday, October 9, 2005 7:41 PM
I suspect that I am not necessarily clued in regarding the term "railfan." I have encountered all sorts of personalities in my rail travels, worldwide. Whether they fit in the category mentioned, I do not know.

There have been a few who risk personal encounters through absolute rude behavior either on the platform or on board the train. They seemingly have to always push ahead - rush for the seats - or talk over the sounds of the traveling train. I consider those behaviors as rude.

Rail employees have had no reason to exhibit rudeness in my direction, although in Europe, there have been times when the Customs people were rather short on patience when some passengers fumbled for their identification. The language barrier never presented itself as a problem to me whether in Europe or Asia - the overwhelming number spoke a degree of English. Although it helped greatly if one tried to pose the question in the native tongue. That is always respected, even if using an English-foreign language dictionary.

BK
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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, October 9, 2005 7:11 PM
Daniel,
First off,
It’s just Ed...Mr. Blysard was my Dad[:D]

Second, I took no offense, but was pointing out that the "rules" both GCOR and Norac, are a two edged sword...they can cut both ways.

James,
If you think about it, you do indeed need Wabash1s permission to take his photo, at least a photo you would want to show to people.
If he sees you, and decides to "ruin" your photo, he can and will, not because he is mean, but because he has a personal and professional reason for not wanting his photo taken.
His professional reason is valid, and if you ask him, I am sure he will explain it...his personal reason is just that, personal.
But in the end, don’t you think it is better to have the cooperation of the people your photographing, instead of standing on your supposed "rights" and getting into an argument, which will guarantee that the rest of your photo will have to be clandestine?
After all, what if someone took your photograph, and you were unaware of it...and were picking your nose when they snapped your photo...you go home, log on to the computer, check out your favorite web site, and ta- da, there you are, in all your glory, pointing at your brain!


Daniel, just to give you something to think about...most of the "rules" don’t tell us what we have to do, they tell us what we cant do...the rest is up to us...

It doesn’t tell me how close to a main line switch I can get with my locomotive when I am in a siding...it tells me I cant foul the main....how close that is, well, that’s is up to me to decide....

It doesn’t tell me I have to be polite...it says I can’t be....

I can assume you have a current copy of the GCOR and Norac?

If not, look here...



http://www.railroadcontrols.com/gcor/
GCOR
http://thebecketts.com/images/NORAC%208th%20Edition%20NJT.pdf
Norac

Ed

23 17 46 11

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:47 PM
Rights, Freedoms and Privledges: three words that have over the years been the sourse of either the greatest joy or the greatest heartbreak to those that love and practice them. I hope someone is listening --PL
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 2:42 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .
YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want.


Lotus -

I am always amused when someone says they have the "right to take pictures". Please show me where that right is published in the law. It isn't in the U.S. Constitution, nor is it in the Constitution of any state that I am aware of. Also, such a right is not granted by staute.

The simple fact is that you have a qualified right to take photographs given to you under the First Amendment. Notice I said qualified. Our rights to free speech are delineated by the Supreme Court depending upon the type of forum involved and the type of speech.

For example a public forum such as a street corner or public park is held to have the least restriction while military bases, and industries (Such as Railroads) are held to be private forums where speech can be completely restricted. Other areas such as shopping malls and commercial areas are deemed semi-public forums and have a middle level of restriction.

Also, the type of speech is subject to analysis. For example, dangerous speech such as that which incites violence can be completely restricted (note that there are even more restrictions on speech of this type since 9-11). More customary speech is less restricted and political speech is particularly protected.

So, as you can see, you don't have an absolute right to take photos on even public property. I haven't even gotten into the possibilities of civil lawsuits based upon use of photos of people without their permission which is a completely separate area of the law concerning individual privacy.

It is always better to use courtesy and caution, than it is to assert a "right" which in fact is not absolute.

LC
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 12:42 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .
YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want.
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Posted by wabash1 on Sunday, October 9, 2005 12:32 PM
train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .
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Posted by UPTRAIN on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:02 AM
Its people of any kind that over react that burn my hide, they really need to fricken grow up.

Pump

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 7, 2005 11:26 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Chris...
Dont blink!

Daniel...
You forgot the beginning of that section of the GCOR....


1.6 Conduct
Employees must not be:

Careless of the safety of themselves or others
Negligent
Insubordinate
Dishonest
Immoral
Quarrelsome
or
Discourteous


Seems you left out the first few lines, most importantly the one about safety of themselves, and others...you fall into the "others" category.

Negligent...means I can’t turn a blind eye to your trespassing.

Insubordinate...I have a standing General Order to report any trespasser, any person acting suspicious, and any person taking photos of railroad equipment, tracks, bridges, structures and employees...guess I have no choice but to report you now, wouldn’t want to violate the GCOR and be insubordinate and ignore a General Order, would I...

Ed[:D]



Dear Mr. Blysard,
I am afraid that I must apologise for having posted in a hurry, and for not making my point clear.

I do not intend to suggest that anybody wave the GCOR in the face of a railroader. What I meant is that if a railfan is treated by a railroad employee in a manner not becoming of a professional of the company, to get his or her name and other pertinent information, and to write a letter either to the railroad or to a newspaper. The public does not know sections 1.3 and 1.6 of the General Code of Operating Rules, so if a letter is written to a newspaper about exceeding discourtesy, they should be made aware of such facts. Once again, I DO NOT mean that a railfan should talk back to a railroader by quoting GCOR.

If you were following your General Orders, and asked me to leave the property in a calm, professional manner, I will leave without hesitation. I understand that you have a job to do. You are a gentleman whose postings I have always respected, and if you will notice, in my topic, I said in the first line after "Hello everyone" that I was speaking of "mean employees."

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks
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Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, October 7, 2005 4:41 PM
Actually no; I do my best to not put myself in a position that they would care enough to come over. I tend err on the side of caution when it comes to areas I don't know is railroad property or not just because it is the wise thing to do.

As far as cameras go, I have had no problems. I have even taken pictures in a VIA train between St.Catharines and Toronto toward outside but I would imagine that is a norm-more so for folk on the Canadian or the Ocean though.
Andrew
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 7, 2005 4:38 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Well here's my awful RR employee story:

This RR guy comes to pick me up at my house at like 9 AM to show me around the yard and areas he works, pet a locomotive and meet the folks he works with, have lunch and even go see thye circus train......Can you believe that...9AM!!! The nerve.....

Dan


No donuts? Who do these people think they are?

I'd give up railfanning altogether if I was you.
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Posted by PBenham on Friday, October 7, 2005 4:17 PM
I have had too many encounters with rude RR employees, Ya can't make make a jerk friendly, I'm no angel but I was right approximately half the time. The paranoid attitude of RR Police and SOME employees is only going to get worse. The next successful terrorist attack can only cut into our freedom some more, that folks, means a victory for them. And they cannot be defeated until we allow citizens to go about their affairs unfettered by Paranoid JERKS!
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Posted by CopCarSS on Friday, October 7, 2005 3:47 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

The most rude experience I have had with a railfan was in 1979 at Edelstein Hill, just west of Chilicothe, Il. on the ATSF.

The TPW was hosting 765 the Nickle Plate Berkshire for weekend trips. A carload of buddies drove to Peoria and during a lull we drove to Edelstein.

A very well know railfan, tons of pictures published over the years was there...and let everyone know who he was. He then proceeded to take out a saw and cut down a small tree (3" diameter) that was in his view.

Is it any wonder that that area is now fenced off and posted "No Trespassing"?

Can you believe the nerve of the owners? Keeping railfans off of their property? Tisk, Tisk.

ed


Ed,

I remember a similar experience at Galesburg Railroad days one year. I'm not sure who the gentleman was, but I'm sure he was another of the "big" names. This was about 10 years ago, so I would've been 15 at the time. I was getting a picture of something, and the guy whistled at me, and then shooed me out of hi way. He was shooting Medium Format, and I generally try not to be be in other people's pix. I moved to a different spot, and he again did the same thing. I was a little perturbed, and went elsewhere.

Later in the evening, a shot was staged by the organizers with the Milw. Rd. 261, and the Zephyr from IRM (I think...this was awhile ago). This was a limited event, since it clogged up both mains in Galesburg. A half-circle photo line formed and all the railfans there were content to get their shots in the photo line...except this guy. He marches out in front of everyone's shot, and proceeds to take the only decent shots with the crews of the two special trains. He managed to perturb the whole railfan community present. Had I known who he was shooting for, I would have more than likely boycotted that magazine for a bit (my apologies to the Trains crowd if it was one of their's).

I still have issues with that day, and have tried to be vigilant of established Photo Lines and such ever since then. I avoid being in front of other camera's, even if it's a seven-year old with a one-time use camera, because I remember how it felt to be young and stepped on because of that fact.

Chris
Denver, CO

-Chris
West Chicago, IL
Christopher May Fine Art Photography

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Posted by MP173 on Friday, October 7, 2005 3:36 PM
The most rude experience I have had with a railfan was in 1979 at Edelstein Hill, just west of Chilicothe, Il. on the ATSF.

The TPW was hosting 765 the Nickle Plate Berkshire for weekend trips. A carload of buddies drove to Peoria and during a lull we drove to Edelstein.

A very well know railfan, tons of pictures published over the years was there...and let everyone know who he was. He then proceeded to take out a saw and cut down a small tree (3" diameter) that was in his view.

Is it any wonder that that area is now fenced off and posted "No Trespassing"?

Can you believe the nerve of the owners? Keeping railfans off of their property? Tisk, Tisk.

ed

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