Hurricane Katrina

[Big_Boy_4005]

Flights have been going in and out of the New Orleans airport, and some people have already been evacuated that way.

The question is still where to take the people, but the idea of busing them to the airport and flying them out does make sense. Each flight should have incoming supplies, an out going victims. The airport may be the best place to set up relief efforts.

[Junctionfan]

I think they should try to get some water bombers to put out that wearhouse fire. I was at the police station this morning so I haven't been watching the news since 9am my time but last I saw, it was pretty bad.

I think if possible, they should try to salvage as much assets as possible when the opportunity arrives to be used for whatever need; but it can't be used if the fire spreads to other facilities.

[Anonymous]

Ed -

Having been a few places I find that the entitlement mentality is particularly bad in some places. Sadly, it seems that in these desperate times, the combination of the survival instinct and that mentality is leading to some very bad consequences. One of our local trucking concerns is filling 7 truckloads of relief supplies for immediate shipment. All the drivers have volunteered to drive the trucks without pay. Local fire departments are seeking two volunteers each to travel south for search, rescue and to spell the exhausted firefighters in LA and MS.

Pitch in all.

LC

[edblysard]

To add to Larry’s observations, while the TV media has focused on New Orleans, we have forgotten that the rest of that section of the Gulf Coast was slammed just as bad...
There is no place near to land a C130...the New Orleans airports are gone, and the IH 10 idea, well, if you ever drove IH10 through there...

None of the cities near there have a place to land a big plane, and no place to house the people if they could get them out.

And there is no way into the city, except by boat down the Mississippi, and even that is dangerous, the port there is pretty much gone.
Even if they could get there, the problem is getting the people from where they are, the Superdome, to the boats or the buses...

And there are pockets of not so good folks all over the city, looting what they can, and burning what they want to, just because they can....this morning a paint factory on the Mississippi near the Dome was set on fire, currently drums of paint base and oils are burning, right next to a small rail yard, with tank cars full of unknown product.

The Astrodome is full, we are filling up Reliant Stadium next door, as I write, two dozen buses are circling the Astrodome complex, because there is no place to put the people on board, and letting them run in a circle constantly moving keeps the AC on the buses running better.

We have already had several incidents outside the Dome, a convience store was rushed by a mob, cleaned it out of, in order, beer, cigarettes, snack food and water, and gasoline, then they tried to take over a motel next door.

At least they now have a place to sleep, and know what they will be eating for breakfast; Harris County jail serves the same thing every day...

Mayor White has already expressed how a lot of us feel...
"The people from New Orleans are our guest, and as such, we expect them to behave as guest, those that think they are free to do whatever they want, and use the fact that they are refugees as an excuse, will find out we do not tolerate our guest robbing us."

HPD has ramped up patrols around the Astrodome, and the Harris County Sheriffs department has established a store front center inside the Dome, with regular armed patrols inside the complex.

All incoming refugees are now searched, and the number of weapons found is frightening, hundreds of knives, several rifles, handguns too many to count, a photo this morning showed a HPD cruiser with its trunk literally full of pistols taken off of people already inside the dome.

Inside the dome, we have had rapes, a few natural deaths, and a knife fight, over the location of a cot of all things!

Amazing, instead of being thankful that we found a way to give them a cot and a hot meal, a shower and a place to sleep, they are fighting, and stabbing each other over who gets to sleep nearest the kitchen...

Ellington Field has been set up as a triage center, hospital patients from New Orleans and the surrounding area are air lifted there, assessed, and then sent to the appropriate hospital in the Houston Medical Center.

One of the things that has disturbed us most, is the attitude of those we have offered help to...so far, only a few people, a young man with several children, and a older lady, have managed to say thank you on the new reports...

The young man said thanks, and the asked if anyone needed a "trim man" (construction worker) to let the news station know, he wanted a job so he could start taking care of his kids...he then began to cry softly....

The older lady, when asked how she felt about losing everything she owned, lookd at the reporter, and said "Honey, those are just things...I came into this world with nothing, and I cant take a thing with me when I leave, all I am worried about is where my husband is"
She then showed the reporter the few things she had managed to bring with her, a family photos, her medicines, and her bible, which was well worn and well read, and never out of her hands...lucky lady, her niece appeared out of the crowd during the report, so this lady at least has a family member to go live with.
As they were leaving, the niece expressed how grateful she was that we had managed to at least get her aunt a place to sleep and a meal to eat...she said thanks over and over...

But most of the people shown on the news are angry that no one has "helped them more", or gone and gotten their niece, mom, dad or cousin...and are steadily complaining about how bad the conditions inside the dome are, or griping about how long it is taking us to get them what they feel they need...

So far, they seem to be a very ungrateful bunch...after all, if I had lost everything, and had a neighboring city come and get me, transport me to a place where I can take a shower, use a working toilet, eat three hot meals a day, sleep out of the weather in an air conditioned building, and have a school set up inside with me, just for my kids, so they don’t miss any school, all at no cost to me, the last thing I would do is complain about how I expected it to be better and start making demands to my host!

This is getting crazy...

Ed

[Anonymous]

September 01, 2005 05:47 PM US Eastern Timezone

Kansas City Southern Reopens Main Line Between Meridian and Jackson, Miss.; Works Bilaterally with Other Rail Carriers to Mitigate Traffic Disruptions Caused by Hurricane

KANSAS CITY, Mo.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 1, 2005--Kansas City Southern (KCS) (NYSE:KSU) today announced that as of 10:00 p.m. CDT last night, August 31, The Kansas City Southern Railway Company's (KCSR) Meridian Speedway line between Meridian, Miss., and Shreveport, La., is open and operating. The reopening was made possible by the clearing of hundreds of downed trees and other obstructions to the main line between Meridian and Brandon, Miss., caused by Hurricane Katrina.


Reopening of the Meridian Speedway has made possible the restoration of rail service to existing KCSR customers and traffic. Currently, KCSR has an agreement with Norfolk Southern (NS) to use the line as a bridge for NS intermodal traffic between Meridian and Alliance, Texas. All of this service has now been re-established, but as a result of the closure of the line in the aftermath of the hurricane, additional traffic is anticipated as backlogged traffic is cleared out.

In addition, KCSR has engaged in numerous bilateral discussions with other area rail carriers whose service was affected by Hurricane Katrina. KCSR is working voluntarily with these carriers to find the best alternative ways to route rail traffic in the Gulf Coast region to compensate for the loss of their important rail facilities. KCSR is working with CSX and the Meridian & Bigbee Railway to divert non-intermodal traffic from New Orleans and Birmingham, Ala., to Meridian. Voluntary bilateral cooperation among Class I and other carriers to address service outages caused by Hurricane Katrina will result in the quickest restoration of service for shippers.

Since the beginning of 2004, KCSR has made substantial capital investments to expand the capacity of the Meridian Speedway. More capital has been invested in KCSR's infrastructure in Mississippi in recent years than any other state on the system.

While these capital investments have expanded capacity along the line, traffic volumes are very high and it may be several weeks before traffic volumes return to normal. In the meantime, KCSR will continue to work with other railroads on a bilateral basis to identify the best alternative route solutions around hurricane-damaged rail facilities so as to restore the greatest degree of rail service possible in Mississippi and Louisiana as quickly as possible.

On August 29, KCSR embargoed the stations of Gramercy, Reserve, Norco and New Orleans, La., on the line between Shreveport and New Orleans. The line has been cleared as far south as Frellsen, but the embargo remains until electric utilities are restored to customers on the line.

On August 29, KCSR also embargoed the Delisle and Gulfport, Miss., stations. While KCSR's line from Palmer to Delisle and Gulfport could be reopened, the Canadian National (CN) line connecting KCSR from Jackson to Palmer is out of service. Additionally, because Gulfport was the hardest hit, there may not be customers operating there to serve.

On August 31, KCSR added the Mobile, Ala., Waynesboro, Quitman and Enterprise, Miss., stations to the embargo.

KCSR has been posting service status updates at www.kcsi.com daily since August 29. These updates can be found on a link from the home page labeled "Service Status Updates Regarding Hurricane Katrina."

KCS is a transportation holding company that has railroad investments in the United States, Mexico and Panama. Its primary domestic holdings include KCSR and The Texas Mexican Railway Company. Headquartered in Kansas City, Mo., KCS serves customers in the central and south central regions of the United States. KCS' rail holdings and investments, including TFM, S.A. de C.V., are primary components of a NAFTA Railway system that links the commercial and industrial centers of the United States, Canada and Mexico.

Contacts


Kansas City Southern
C. Doniele Kane, 816-983-1372
[e-mail]

[Modelcar]

Tree, oh yes, all so true......but perhaps those C-130's could land somewhere within a 50 mile radius...and help the situation instead of driving those busses 300 plus miles, etc....Of course it's chaotic whatever they try to do.....

[Modelcar]

UP829....Now that sounds like a refreshing idea....If they can establish somewhere to take them that would be the way to do it....C130's...

[tree68]

News Item - Buses headed for convention center delayed 4-5 hours in traffic jam. Folks, there is no infrastructure left there. Highways have been destroyed as well. You still need a mile of more or less flat road to land a C-130, never mind the streetlights and road signs, and there is no room on an interstate to move the aircraft out of the way for loading, so it's one at a time. Land, unload, load, taxi back, take off. Buses are the answer, but you've got to get them there. I have to believe that the effort is there, but the task is massive.

Career fire departments are being asked to provide two-person teams to assist. While the local press indicates that volunteers for the assignment are hardly in short supply, I have to wonder how many firefighters are factoring the violence into their decision.

I don't know that any of us really realize the magnitude of this event. Hurricane Andrew, the Oklahoma F5 tornado, perhaps even the SF earthquake pale in comparison. First the city is raked by the usual destructiveness of a major hurricane, then it's inundated by a flood. Either would be a major catastrophe by itself.

[Anonymous]

What has me concerned after watching the Today show (we don't have cable TV, to much trash for kids to see, inclusing us adults) I sat there starting to worry and think about the devestation that just this single event has caused, how people didn't have any sort of plan in place, a survival kit of some sort, some ignoring the warnings to leave, others taking advantage of others, how people are starting to ignore the law, not planning for those that are without transportation in the first place, medical concernes for those with diabetes, heart conditions, people on oxygen etc. That is just the "simple" stuff.

What is going to happen when we get another terrorist attack that is along this scale, be it a dirty bomb, a real nuke, bio terror etc. Is our government going to be responding in a similar manner, are people going to ignore possible warnings of an impending threat like many did in the south? Are we going to see lawlessness, and I am not talking about looting, but killing people for their cars to leave, rapes, as now being reported, killing or worse yet, people taking rescue supplies from relief workers and then selling them to the survivors at a high cost?

I am sure the terror element is watching all this and thinking real hard about how they can cripple our Nation and we will in effect eat our own because we as a species are prone to just the behavior we are now witnessing.

I think Katrina is our 2nd wakeup call and we had better start getting ready.

I heard how the government, not just the current President but all the way back to the 70's have all cut funding to the Corp of Engineers, Law Enforcement, the AMTRAK scuttling etc. Instead we take all this tax money and spend it on pork, money for pretty bike trails, sports hall of fames, things that are meaningless when you see just what people truly need, protection and substanance in the form of water, food and medicine.

We all need to start thinking about theses things, All change starts at home first. So in a way we can help, maybe not the current vistims, but ourselves for the next event that is sure to come.

I am not a doomsayer, just being realistic after watching all this unfold.

Okay done with my [soapbox]

[Junctionfan]

The mayor of New Orleans says that they are thinking too small. He wants every single bus to get here now. I can't see why most of that could be. Really, to heck with everybody else; they aren't the ones dying; send transit busses from cities too.

Here is also an idea. Load up the National Guard who supposedly are in Louisiana before heading to New Orleans. Troops get off, refugees get on.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ray.Lampman

How long until a railroad could push a train of empty gondolas into New Orleans to serve as an emergency evacuation train? Both Class-1s running west, UP and BNSF, seem close to reaching New Orleans. How much water depth above the rails would mechanically prevent a train from sloshing though? Have our governments explored the rail options? I'd sure like to see the railroads benefit from the positive press which would follow a few successful rescue trains!

Even if they could get the people to the railhead, riding in gondolas isn't particularly safe or comfortable. No bathrooms, not much chance for food or water service, difficulty loading and unloading, and then how fast would the train be able to travel?

Then there is the issue of where to take them. The Houston fire marshall has ordered that no more people be admitted to the Astrodome, it is at capacity. The word is that other locations in Houston, San Antonio and Dallas are being set up to receive more refugees.

This whole situation is a logistical nightmare, that nobody ever planned for. I think it's safe to say that some of these people who lived through the actual storm, will die from neglect in the aftermath. There is nothing we can do about it. No amount of money will save them.

Sometimes I wonder if the government isn't deliberately dragging it's feet in order to prove a point. There seem to be some very high expectations on the part of the general public being placed on the governmnet. In the government's defense, nothing like this has ever happened here before.

Is it really the government's job to bail people out when they choose to live in harm's way? I suppose according to the preamble to the constitution some people would say it is!!!

It isn't as if nobody expected a major storm to hit New Orleans. They all knew it was only a matter of time. Government and people alike.

What I want to know is where's MAC - Military Airlift Command. Instead of trains or buses, why not land some C130's on I-10 and get them out 500+ at a time. If that's not possible, then use the buses to shuttle them to the nearest place where a C130 can land, instead of wasting a lot of time driving all the way to Texas. For the time being, fly them to military bases like we did with the Cuban refugees. Stop worrying about looters and 'law & order' and get those people out of there!

[Tulyar15]

My condolences to all who've been affected by this.

As for gasoline prices etc, I think this article on the BBC website sums up the short and long tern consequences quite well:-


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4204900.stm

[daveklepper]

1. You cannot imagine how my heart really goes out to those who lost loved ones and to those who are still suffering even though "rescued."

2. San Francisco's fire and earthquake was a disaster of similar magnitude and the city was rebuilt. If the people of New Orleans have enough faith in their future, it will also be rebuilt, and engineers will make the proper decisions to guard against future events like this.

3. Anyone know if the Pearly Thomas 1926-built streetcars were moved to higher ground before the city shut down?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ray.Lampman

How long until a railroad could push a train of empty gondolas into New Orleans to serve as an emergency evacuation train? Both Class-1s running west, UP and BNSF, seem close to reaching New Orleans. How much water depth above the rails would mechanically prevent a train from sloshing though? Have our governments explored the rail options? I'd sure like to see the railroads benefit from the positive press which would follow a few successful rescue trains!

Even if they could get the people to the railhead, riding in gondolas isn't particularly safe or comfortable. No bathrooms, not much chance for food or water service, difficulty loading and unloading, and then how fast would the train be able to travel?

Then there is the issue of where to take them. The Houston fire marshall has ordered that no more people be admitted to the Astrodome, it is at capacity. The word is that other locations in Houston, San Antonio and Dallas are being set up to receive more refugees.

This whole situation is a logistical nightmare, that nobody ever planned for. I think it's safe to say that some of these people who lived through the actual storm, will die from neglect in the aftermath. There is nothing we can do about it. No amount of money will save them.

Sometimes I wonder if the government isn't deliberately dragging it's feet in order to prove a point. There seem to be some very high expectations on the part of the general public being placed on the governmnet. In the government's defense, nothing like this has ever happened here before.

Is it really the government's job to bail people out when they choose to live in harm's way? I suppose according to the preamble to the constitution some people would say it is!!!

It isn't as if nobody expected a major storm to hit New Orleans. They all knew it was only a matter of time. Government and people alike.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigedd

morseman

Dont waste your time.Nobody cares about our help form the north.

I don't think it's meant ro be a slight to anyone and I'm sure that the offer is truly appreciated at all levels. But I would venture to guess that with all the personnel and equipment there or headed that way, it reaches a point where there are too many assets to efficiently manage. People start getting in each others way to do the tasks, plus the support required to sustain the rescuers starts to effect the level of support to the victims, as they require shelter, food, water and fuel also. Not to mention the ugly situation that seems to be developing between the rescuers and those whom seem to be reveling in the misery, shooting at each other and the help.

Dan

[Anonymous]

How long until a railroad could push a train of empty gondolas into New Orleans to serve as an emergency evacuation train? Both Class-1s running west, UP and BNSF, seem close to reaching New Orleans. How much water depth above the rails would mechanically prevent a train from sloshing though? Have our governments explored the rail options? I'd sure like to see the railroads benefit from the positive press which would follow a few successful rescue trains!

[edblysard]

Adrian and Vic...
The death toll in Galveston is not conclusive...no real records were kept, nor could they have accounted for all the bodies...
Estimates are from 6000 to 8000…most historians quote the 6000 death toll.

And, to add to Vic's concept...they raised the city of Galveston, from 61st street all the way east to Stewart road, and from the ocean side down to Broadway.

They dug channels several blocks square, brought in dredges, barges and slurry pumps, removed sand from the bay bottom and the beach, and raised the entire city(circa 1900) a few blocks at a time, in some places ten feet.
Surviving buildings were raised on stone piers, and the "fill" dumped under them, then foundations laid, and the buildings set back down.

The farther away from the sea, the less the city was raised, so that the entire city now slopes from the ocean side at ten feet high above mean high tide to the harbor side, which is only a foot or two above the high tide.

This was done on purpose, because the majority of the deaths in 1900 were from people drowning in the storm surge, and after the storm was past.

There had been a small, short levee around the city proper, and most of the foundations of the city buildings and homes were at, or below sea level.
The levee didn’t fail, but the exact opposite, it held good enough to trap the storm surge, and left the city flooded for days.

A sea wall was built, also 10 feet tall, by the Army corp. of engineers, from close to 30th street all the way east to the Marine Corp base on the east end.

Now, if by some chance a surge gets over the sea wall, it will roll right across the island, down hill, and out into the harbor.

Granted, Galveston is a island, as opposed to a land locked city below sea level with a lake on one side, but the concept of raising a city isn’t new, nor is it an impossibility, if they can do it in 1900 with steam dredges, slurry pumps and shovels, we could do it today with the more efficient equipment we have.

To add a train reference to this, the Galveston causeway was being built then, and it was pretty much in the finished stages, wood piers and bents, with a rail line, commuter and freight, no wagon or automobile road.
To get on the island, you either took a train, or a boat.

Because it was destroyed by the storm, when they rebuilt it, they used a then new material, reinforced concrete, with a one lane road for autos and a pedestrian walk, which was the first public road into Galveston, before that, all traffic went by ferry.

This causeway has one of the last working draw bridges in the south, to allow ocean going vessels passage through the intracostal waterway.

If you drive onto the west end of the island, and go to the east end, you can take the ferry across back to the mainland at Bolivar’s Point, said ferry is actually part of IH45, it is maintained and run by the Texas Department of Transportation at no charge.

And, just because I have a few friends in the service, and because they dont get a lot of press...
Next time you see a Coast Guardsman, shake his or her hand, they are doing one hell of a job over there, rescue flights and boat rescue 24/7...
Along with body recovery and removal, these men and women have been there since day one, doing what they do best, with no real thanks..

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith



3rd. In another forum I pointed out that in the 1850's, every building in the entire downtown of Chicago was raised 10 feet to raise the city above the floodplain of the Chicago river. This was done using little more than picks and shovels, wood blocks, jackscrews and laborers. They raised each building, including some very large multi story masonry ones, one quarter turn at a time, 1/4" at a time in a huge orchestrated effort, using no more sophisticated command and control systems than a man blowing commands on a whistle!

[Anonymous]

morseman

Dont waste your time.Nobody cares about our help form the north.

[morseman]

further to my earlier posting re Canadian aid
Canada wishes to send transport planes, helicopters, and a Cdn, army
contigent. However nothing has left Canada yet. Waiting for
G.W.B. to request this aid. On the news tonite there was a first
announcement of 12 contries wishing to contribute aid,
Later list was up to 24 I believe, including Mexico. However in a
statement from Bu***onight, he stated that the U.S. will not need
foreign aid, they can go it alone. Why does he keep alienting
Canada and other countries and making the U.S. an isolationist
nation?

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

There are 3 options to me.

1st Repair the levee system which as we now know is for all practical purposes obsolete, rebuild the city in exactly the same place and conditions, wait for the next big hurricane to bullseye the city.

2nd being to invest in a Dutch system of large earthen and concrete dikes surrounding the city, build floodgates at the mouth of Lake Pochutrain and surrounding waterways and divide the city internally into sectors with floodwalls and gates so if a dike ever is breeched again the flooding will be contained to one area. This would be expesive but alot cheaper than flooding the whole dam city up to the rooftops!

3rd. In another forum I pointed out that in the 1850's, every building in the entire downtown of Chicago was raised 10 feet to raise the city above the floodplain of the Chicago river. This was done using little more than picks and shovels, wood blocks, jackscrews and laborers. They raised each building, including some very large multi story masonry ones, one quarter turn at a time, 1/4" at a time in a huge orchestrated effort, using no more sophisticated command and control systems than a man blowing commands on a whistle!

Now I think we are a bit more technically savy that that today, I have seen enormous tracts of land out here transformed by huge earthmoving companies. I propose that the entire city be RAISED. Any wood framed buildings still salvagable after the flood waters are drained should be moved out and stored, any damaged ones should have whatever valuables left rescuable removed, then demo and begin imprting new earth fill. Raise or replace any existing infrastructure (good chance to bring alot of it out of the 19th cent. and into the 21st century) regrade the city section by section, using the old maps to designate property lines. At the downtown smaller buildings could be lifted to the new street elevation and have new foundations built under them.larger buildings would have to be remodeled to accomodate the new street elevation. If that means an 20' ceiling in your plush lobby instead of a 35' ceiling, so be it. Owners might whine and *** but the alternative of a potentail flood destroying thier buildings again might pursued them.

The ultimate objective would be a city that would never face this particular kind of disaster ever again. The flood gate on Lake Ponchutrain would prevent the ocean from surging in if another large hurricane blows there way again, if it did the city would now be above the flood plain, with riverside walks, marinas, and beatiful vistas of the river and lake.

Could this be done, hell yes! in my lifetime? Yeap, could start the day after the waters gone. What will likely happen given the short sightedness of most people in our current administration who could make something like this happen? see option #1.


THIS CAN BE DONE, this is America, the nation that built the Panama Canal! Entire cities are being built on open land out here in the West, mountains become terraces for 100's of homes, plains become entire cities. If Chicago could do it 150 years ago, if we can't do it today because of lack of political will, fear of large scale construction or fear of the costs, then maybe we dont deserve to call ourselves the Greatest Nation on Earth, because we can't even rebuild our own cities after a disaster.

I vote for both 2 and 3. Long term, sitting on a silt supported collection of tidal marsh land..it'll settle over time. Build new levies after raising the elevation and think long term. Even places that are at sea level, get wiped when a tidal surge occurs, so why not do it right. They have to start over anyway.

Dan

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

There are 3 options to me.

1st Repair the levee system which as we now know is for all practical purposes obsolete, rebuild the city in exactly the same place and conditions, wait for the next big hurricane to bullseye the city.

2nd being to invest in a Dutch system of large earthen and concrete dikes surrounding the city, build floodgates at the mouth of Lake Pochutrain and surrounding waterways and divide the city internally into sectors with floodwalls and gates so if a dike ever is breeched again the flooding will be contained to one area. This would be expesive but alot cheaper than flooding the whole dam city up to the rooftops!

3rd. In another forum I pointed out that in the 1850's, every building in the entire downtown of Chicago was raised 10 feet to raise the city above the floodplain of the Chicago river. This was done using little more than picks and shovels, wood blocks, jackscrews and laborers. They raised each building, including some very large multi story masonry ones, one quarter turn at a time, 1/4" at a time in a huge orchestrated effort, using no more sophisticated command and control systems than a man blowing commands on a whistle!

Now I think we are a bit more technically savy that that today, I have seen enormous tracts of land out here transformed by huge earthmoving companies. I propose that the entire city be RAISED. Any wood framed buildings still salvagable after the flood waters are drained should be moved out and stored, any damaged ones should have whatever valuables left rescuable removed, then demo and begin imprting new earth fill. Raise or replace any existing infrastructure (good chance to bring alot of it out of the 19th cent. and into the 21st century) regrade the city section by section, using the old maps to designate property lines. At the downtown smaller buildings could be lifted to the new street elevation and have new foundations built under them.larger buildings would have to be remodeled to accomodate the new street elevation. If that means an 20' ceiling in your plush lobby instead of a 35' ceiling, so be it. Owners might whine and *** but the alternative of a potentail flood destroying thier buildings again might pursued them.

The ultimate objective would be a city that would never face this particular kind of disaster ever again. The flood gate on Lake Ponchutrain would prevent the ocean from surging in if another large hurricane blows there way again, if it did the city would now be above the flood plain, with riverside walks, marinas, and beatiful vistas of the river and lake.

Could this be done, hell yes! in my lifetime? Yeap, could start the day after the waters gone. What will likely happen given the short sightedness of most people in our current administration who could make something like this happen? see option #1.


THIS CAN BE DONE, this is America, the nation that built the Panama Canal! Entire cities are being built on open land out here in the West, mountains become terraces for 100's of homes, plains become entire cities. If Chicago could do it 150 years ago, if we can't do it today because of lack of political will, fear of large scale construction or fear of the costs, then maybe we dont deserve to call ourselves the Greatest Nation on Earth, because we can't even rebuild our own cities after a disaster.

Vic, If my opinion was worth anything, I would vote for your plan. Any area of the city that was flooded out in this disaster, should be bulldozed, as it is probably not worth salvaging. Clean fill should be brought in, and the land raised at least 10 feet above the current levee top. Then just start with all new utilities in the new high ground.

This would mean that much of the levee system would be replaced with these built up "islands". There would still be sections of the city that would need levee protection, but the overall levee length would be reduced. The remaining levees could be reinforced and hightened. When the next storm breeches the levees, repeat the process, until the bowl is filled.

I realize that we are talking about at least a cubic mile of fill, but it seems like it would be a permanent solution. Your comparison to the Panama Canal construction is a pretty good one.

[DPD1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman

our "fearless" leader Paul Martin is finally making a statement.
Said his deputies have been in touch with U.S. counterparts
all along. B.C.'s 45 member Heavy Urban Search & Rescue team have left for Louisiana Hydro Crews and mobile hospitals will be leaving from Ontario Alberta officials said whatever US wants we will assist. Canada will be sending water purification eqpt. Our Disaster Assistance rResponse Team (DART) will be sent.
Red Cross teams being assembled to go. This is only part of it.

My question is??? What is U.S.A's other neighbour doing ????????

Probably what they usually do... Taking advantage of the fact that our resources are now busy with the hurricane, and turning a blind eye while hundreds of their people enter our country illegally every day.

Dave
-DPD Productions - Custom Scanner, MURS, & Ham Antennas-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/

[vsmith]

There are 3 options to me.

1st Repair the levee system which as we now know is for all practical purposes obsolete, rebuild the city in exactly the same place and conditions, wait for the next big hurricane to bullseye the city.

2nd being to invest in a Dutch system of large earthen and concrete dikes surrounding the city, build floodgates at the mouth of Lake Pochutrain and surrounding waterways and divide the city internally into sectors with floodwalls and gates so if a dike ever is breeched again the flooding will be contained to one area. This would be expesive but alot cheaper than flooding the whole dam city up to the rooftops!

3rd. In another forum I pointed out that in the 1850's, every building in the entire downtown of Chicago was raised 10 feet to raise the city above the floodplain of the Chicago river. This was done using little more than picks and shovels, wood blocks, jackscrews and laborers. They raised each building, including some very large multi story masonry ones, one quarter turn at a time, 1/4" at a time in a huge orchestrated effort, using no more sophisticated command and control systems than a man blowing commands on a whistle!

Now I think we are a bit more technically savy that that today, I have seen enormous tracts of land out here transformed by huge earthmoving companies. I propose that the entire city be RAISED. Any wood framed buildings still salvagable after the flood waters are drained should be moved out and stored, any damaged ones should have whatever valuables left rescuable removed, then demo and begin imprting new earth fill. Raise or replace any existing infrastructure (good chance to bring alot of it out of the 19th cent. and into the 21st century) regrade the city section by section, using the old maps to designate property lines. At the downtown smaller buildings could be lifted to the new street elevation and have new foundations built under them.larger buildings would have to be remodeled to accomodate the new street elevation. If that means an 20' ceiling in your plush lobby instead of a 35' ceiling, so be it. Owners might whine and *** but the alternative of a potentail flood destroying thier buildings again might pursued them.

The ultimate objective would be a city that would never face this particular kind of disaster ever again. The flood gate on Lake Ponchutrain would prevent the ocean from surging in if another large hurricane blows there way again, if it did the city would now be above the flood plain, with riverside walks, marinas, and beatiful vistas of the river and lake.

Could this be done, hell yes! in my lifetime? Yeap, could start the day after the waters gone. What will likely happen given the short sightedness of most people in our current administration who could make something like this happen? see option #1.


THIS CAN BE DONE, this is America, the nation that built the Panama Canal! Entire cities are being built on open land out here in the West, mountains become terraces for 100's of homes, plains become entire cities. If Chicago could do it 150 years ago, if we can't do it today because of lack of political will, fear of large scale construction or fear of the costs, then maybe we dont deserve to call ourselves the Greatest Nation on Earth, because we can't even rebuild our own cities after a disaster.

[morseman]

further to my earlier msge re Canadian help
Canada offered to send cargo planes, helicopters and a contigent
of Cdn. army personnel to th States.
Bush said tonite that 12 countries have offered help
Is Mexico one of them ??????
Canadian help has not left yet. Needs permission from the US
and Bush more or less implied foreign aid not yet requested
and that they can do it alone. Once again Bush is snubbing
Canada and other nations

[Big_Boy_4005]

In terms of dollar damage, this should easily surpass hurricane Andrew, given the widespread nature of the damage, and the fact that it hit a number of cities.

Death toll is going to take a while to figure out. It is like taking "human inventory", similar to what happened post 9/11. The one bright spot with this storm (if there is such a thing) is that many, many, people heeded the warning, and got out of the area.

My understanding of the 6,000 figure for Galveston is that it was more of an educated guess at the time, than an actual body count. Just the other day, over on the NOAA website, it said 6,000 to 12,000 for that storm. That's a pretty big gap.

There will always be a certain number of people unaccounted for. If nobody reports them missing, and they were swept out to sea. Add to that any undocumented aliens. Those numbers should be small though.

Weather forcasting has come a long way since 1900, but it is really modern communications that saved so many lives. I don't think these numbers are going to come close to 6,000, unless a lot of people in New Orleans die from dehydration in the aftermath.

[espeefoamer]

Maybe some historian out there can answer this one.How did this hurricane compare in intensity with the one that hit Galveston TX. in 1900.This was the worst natural disaster to hit the USA,with 6000 people killed.I sincerly hope this storms total is nowhere near that.

[Anonymous]

my cousin comes from the city (left a long time ago). My thoughts are with you - good luck guys and gals and hold on.

[Anonymous]

KCS Makes Progress Toward Clearing Lines

Hurricane Katrina and the resulting storms continue to affect The Kansas City Southern Railway Company's (KCSR) operation in the New Orleans, Louisiana and Gulfport, Mississippi areas and on the eastern portion of the Meridian Speedway between Meridian and Jackson, Mississippi.

Maintenance of way crews have cleared the line from Baton Rouge to Frellsen, which is south of the embargoed stations of Gramercy, Reserve and Norco and is approximately 10 miles outside of New Orleans. The embargo will remain for Gramercy, Reserve and Norco until electric utilities are restored to customers near those stations. All traffic bound for New Orleans from any KCS station or interchange remains under embargo. In addition, Mobile, Alabama, Waynesboro, Quitman and Enterprise, Mississippi are being added to the list of stations under embargo.

Maintenance of way crews are still not able to get close enough to Gulfport, Mississippi by rail to truly assess the damage.

This morning, the intermodal ramp at Jackson reopened and trains are moving west from Jackson on the Meridian Speedway. Maintenance of way crews spent all of yesterday removing trees from the line between Vicksburg and Jackson. Tree removal efforts continue today between Jackson and Meridian. It is anticipated that KCS will be able to begin taking traffic at Meridian later this week. KCSR is taking interchange traffic from an eastern railroad at East St. Louis, Illinois.

To accommodate our customers rerouting needs, traffic has been prioritized into three categories:
1. KCSR traffic not affected by the hurricane will be handled at the current rate and service levels.
2. For KCSR traffic disrupted by the hurricane, carload rule 11 rate matrix is below and provides rates to and from alternative junctions.
3. Any new traffic to KCSR will be handled on an available capacity basis, with long-term contract business receiving priority.

Katrina Rule 11 Rate Matrix for Bridge Traffic Options
* Origins are listed vertical. Destinations are listed horizontal. E. St. Louis, IL Kansas City, MO Neosho, MO Joplin, MO Texarkana, TX Shreveport, LA Dallas, TX Beaumont, TX Monroe, LA
E. St. Louis, IL $825 $1075 $1425 $1650 $1775 $2250 $2225 $2175
Kansas City, MO $825 $625 $700 $1050 $1150 $1550 $1525 $1425
Neosho, MO $1075 $625 $500 $900 $950 $925 $1225 $1050
Joplin, MO $1425 $700 $500 $975 $1075 $1500 $1475 $1350
Texarkana, TX $1650 $1050 $900 $975 $500 $825 $800 $625
Shreveport, LA $1775 $1150 $950 $1075 $500 $750 $750 $500
Dallas, TX $2250 $1550 $925 $1500 $725 $750 $1075 $925
Beaumont, TX $2225 $1525 $1225 $1475 $800 $750 $1075 $800
Monroe, LA $2175 $1425 $1050 $1350 $625 $500 $925 $800

Additional updates will be made as soon as more information becomes available.

[morseman]

our "fearless" leader Paul Martin is finally making a statement.
Said his deputies have been in touch with U.S. counterparts
all along. B.C.'s 45 member Heavy Urban Search & Rescue team have left for Louisiana Hydro Crews and mobile hospitals will be leaving from Ontario Alberta officials said whatever US wants we will assist. Canada will be sending water purification eqpt. Our Disaster Assistance rResponse Team (DART) will be sent.
Red Cross teams being assembled to go. This is only part of it.

My question is??? What is U.S.A's other neighbour doing ????????

[Anonymous]

A distribution system brought to its knees
As ports remained closed from Louisiana to Florida on Wednesday (Aug. 31), some 300 barges containing grains and other products were left homeless, according to this report by Alexei Barrionuevo and Claudia H. Deutsch published by the New York Times.
Under the management of Cargill, a large agriculture producer and exporter, the barges were caught in a bottleneck caused by the devastation of Hurricane Katrina. Now they are floating on rivers north of New Orleans with nowhere to go.

Two days after one of the worst storms ever ravaged the Gulf Coast, large parts of the nation's distribution system were feeling the effects. Major transportation arteries were clogged, and imports and exports had slowed to a crawl. The logistical logjam could delay the production of hundreds of everyday products. The result is that consumers, even those far from the storm's epicenter, might have to pay more for everything from coffee and bananas to paint and tires.

Many of the Cargill barges, for example, were loaded with corn, soybeans and wheat, for shipment out of the country, before the storm struck early Monday.

With the harvest season for grain less than a month away, grain processors said they were concerned over how long shipping would remain constrained before they must begin their busiest export time of the year, to Europe and Asia.

Grains are the largest export likely to be affected by the devastation to the ports, because they are so dependent on the river barge system. In July, about half of the country's grain exports were shipped from the Mississippi River gulf outlet, said David D. Lehman, managing director for commodities at the Chicago Board of Trade. "Those facilities are all without power and could be impacted by the flooding," he said.

"If this is a 5- to 10-day problem, it won't significantly impact the grain markets," Mr. Lehman said. If it is longer, then importers will start switching to buying from other ports, mostly likely along the West Coast.

But with gasoline and diesel prices being sharply affected by the loss of refining capacity caused by the storm, shifting to other ports will create costly logistical complications that will probably be passed to consumers in the form of higher prices, shipping firms said.

David Feider, a spokesman for Cargill, said it was "not feasible" to divert grain shipments to trucks or trains because of the high cost and the loading infrastructure required.

Imports are not faring any better. Shippers were scrambling to arrange alternative ports for incoming shipments of oil, chemicals and steel additives. Millions of pounds of coffee remained in storage in New Orleans. "Everything is at a standstill right now," Mr. Feider said.

Government officials struggled Wednesday to assess the scope of the damage to the port of New Orleans.

Coast Guard officials said that they were finishing underwater surveys of shipping channels. So far they have found an unusual amount of soil and sand build-up, and a number of buoys and other navigational aides either missing, destroyed or misplaced, creating the potential for ships to run aground, said Petty Officer John Miller, a Coast Guard spokesman. Some ships struggled with the question of whether to divert to other ports.

The Port of Houston Authority said it was receiving inquiries from carriers about possible diversions. A cargo ship laden with rubber and timber, originally slated to make calls at New Orleans and Pascagoula, Miss., was diverted to Houston Wednesday night, the port authority said.

Chiquita Brands International said it had no choice but to reroute shipments of bananas and other fresh produce to ports like Freeport, Tex., and Port Everglades, Fla. Chiquita's facilities in Gulfport, Miss., which last year handled about 25 percent of its banana imports to the United States from Central America, were too damaged to receive shipments, the company said.

Meanwhile, companies struggled to get products out of New Orleans. More than 700,000 bags of coffee, each weighing 132 or 150 pounds, remained in storage in New Orleans, said the Chicago Board of Trade.

Procter & Gamble said it suffered a heavy loss of coffee production. About half of its Folgers brand of coffee comes out of New Orleans. The facility has been shut since Saturday, and Doug O. Shelton, a Procter spokesman, said the company had no idea when it could reopen. "We're still in the process of trying to re-establish contact with the people who worked in the area," he said.

In recent years, ports in Long Beach, Calif., and in the Pacific Northwest became so congested that some companies began importing container shipments of consumer products directly from Asia to gulf ports to more easily distribute to customers in the South and Midwest.

Wal-Mart opened a mammoth distribution center outside Houston this summer as part of a direct-import strategy. Christi Gallagher, a spokeswoman for the company, said that while two distribution centers were affected by the storm, the Houston facility and Wal-Mart's many other distribution centers spared the company any major disruptions.

Others were not so lucky. Damage was so heavy at one of DuPont's largest titanium dioxide plants, which supplies whiteners and brighteners to paint and coatings manufacturers, and to a plant that makes a chemical precursor to the polyurethane foams used in car dashboards and appliances, that the company has invoked legal clauses used to shield itself from liabilities when it inevitably has to renege on some supply contracts.

"It's too early to say how much we've lost, but we've had extensive flooding," said Kelli Kukura, a DuPont spokeswoman.

Truckers are also feeling the effects. Shipments in and out of the New Orleans region represent about $1 million a day for Yellow Roadway, a $10 billion trucking company, "and since commerce in the area has pretty much stopped, it will affect those revenues," said William D. Zollars, the chairman.

But Mr. Zollars is more concerned about costs than revenues. Yellow Roadway has 20 terminals in the area. "Our terminal in New Orleans has been reduced to a concrete slab, and with communications so bad, we don't know how much damage we've had at others," he said.

(The preceding report by Alexei Barrionuevo and Claudia H. Deutsch was published by the New York Times on Thursday, Sept. 1, 2005. Alexei Barrionuevo reported from Chicago for this article and Claudia H. Deutsch from New York. Jeff Bailey contributed reporting from Chicago, and Melanie Warner from New York.)

September 1, 2005

From UTU Site