The Great Northern Railroad

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan

You can believe Mr. Sol, the same person who claims that by having no helper districts there are no grades (applicable evidently only to the Milwaukee),

This is baloney. I did not say this. Will you grow up and stop your wild and baseless misrepresentations of other people's remarks?

If you have to fabricate something in order to make your case, then it must be because you have a weak case to make that can't survive on its own.

If you have an honest argument to make, there is no need to be dishonest about other's positions on it.

Or is there?

Best regards, Michael Sol

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan

[quoteAnd your obsession is that you still don't accept the reality that there might be very good reasons for the Great Northern to have triumphed.

Wow. Anyone who has any doubts about your disposition on this, needs to read this. "Triumphed"?

The Great Northern died in 1970. The Milwaukee Road survived until 1986.

That is a reality.

Best regards, Michael Sol

Well, Michael, "died" and "triumphed" are open to interpretation, and I will admit yours is like no other.

My reality is that I can still ride a passenger train named after the founder of the Great Northern, traveling largely along the former Great Northern route. My reality is that this same route hosts over 40 freight trains daily, the busiest route between the Upper Midwest and North Pacific Coast.

May we all be so active 35 years after dying.

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan

You can believe Mr. Sol, the same person who claims that by having no helper districts there are no grades (applicable evidently only to the Milwaukee),

This is baloney. I did not say this. Will you grow up and stop your wild and baseless misrepresentations of other people's remarks?

If you have to fabricate something in order to make your case, then it must be because you have a weak case to make that can't survive on its own.

If you have an honest argument to make, there is no need to be dishonest about other's positions on it.

Or is there?

Best regards, Michael Sol

Baloney?
Why even make a point about the Milwaukee not having helper districts then? It doesn't matter if they didn't use helpers, because the grade remains, and the MILW used much more power to move a train across the Rockies (and the Belts and the Bitterroots) than did the GN. If you were not trying to deflect this aspect of the MILW, you'd never even have brought it up. I have indicated the tonnage ratings for similar locomotive consists on the GN and MILW grades based on GN, BN, and MILW tonnage charts in a previous post. That's a much "honest" argument than I see from you.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan

[quoteAnd your obsession is that you still don't accept the reality that there might be very good reasons for the Great Northern to have triumphed.

Wow. Anyone who has any doubts about your disposition on this, needs to read this. "Triumphed"?

The Great Northern died in 1970. The Milwaukee Road survived until 1986.

That is a reality.

Best regards, Michael Sol

Well, Michael, "died" and "triumphed" are open to interpretation, and I will admit yours is like no other.

My reality is that I can still ride a passenger train named after the founder of the Great Northern, traveling largely along the former Great Northern route. My reality is that this same route hosts over 40 freight trains daily, the busiest route between the Upper Midwest and North Pacific Coast.

May we all be so active 35 years after dying.

You are living in a dreamland. Enjoy it.

However, fabricating history is a different matter entirely. Perhaps if you look at that history, you can see that the Milwaukee Road's consent to the merger conditions made it all possible. Had that not happened, the reality based numbers that existed showed dim prospects indeed for all the Northern Lines.

Actual numbers, not your dream world that you have misrepresented that the GN was great and everyone else failing, and that "grades" were single-handedly responsble for defining the outcome of historical, business and regulatory processes.

And its odd. While I cite chapter and verse to suggest you have a difficult time ever actually substantiating your claims, you in fact never seem to be able to point to anything except your dull reptitions that you can sit on a porch (that one that GN admitted it had to sell because it had no passengers), and see a railroad track, which was deteriorating in use and maintenance under GN, but which justifies to you an inevitable outcome of a century of railroading.

The point was, GN had to die in order for that line to gain, or regain, a future by the means of a different management with entirely different traffic resources and different circumstances.

I suggest it was a close call, based on a more careful reading of history and that, like many events, nothing was preordained.

I think the official opinion of the ICC, no doubt based on a more accurate understanding that the two 2.2% grades on the GN, and the functional equivalent of a 2.2% or worse, of that tunnel, plus the added costs of operation, and personal injury costs over the years, made the Stevens Pass crossing of the GN a more expensive operation than the combined effect of all the NP grades, or Milwaukee grades.

Your's is a romantic view of the GN.

Nothing wrong with that.

It's your insatiable and compelling need to prove something that isn't true, and isn't supported by the engineering record, that makes this whole discussion ultimately more pathological than enlightening.

You've stated your opinon as many times as possible.

The FRA, the ICC, and BN civil engineers have stated their's.

They differ from yours and you can't get over that. Well, you're not going to change the ICC opnion, or the FRA opinion or the engineers more familiar with the situation than you.

Move on. You must have a life outside of GN worship.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan

Why even make a point about the Milwaukee not having helper districts then?

Because you had, out of the blue, spontaneously claimed they did have -- when they didn't -- and then claimed out of the blue that I said they had none -- when I wasn't the one who had said that -- and now you claim I said there were no grades at all -- which is nothing I have ever even remotely claimed. You are building up quite a record here.

Regarding helper districts: both Milwaukee train crews and BN dispatchers, not me, called you on it. and stated you were wrong

The point bears repeating because you claimed a knowledge of Milwaukee practice that was false, and I had nothing to do with pointing that out, as I have now asserted several times. I can't help but think if you would claim knowledge in that instance that you did not in fact have, what else do you claim that you have no actual basis for claiming?

You made a claim about Milwaukee having four, five or six helper districts after 1974. The number changed with various posts of yours. Apparently Milwaukee grades changed on a daily basis or it's hard to keep up with your changing "realities."

Milwaukee Road employees said you were wrong.

I was not one of them. And further, I have never said, as you represented above, that "the Milwaukee Road had no grades." That is simply a flat out lie. But, it is consistent with your representations.

But, lets look at how you keep evolving this episode.

A BN dispatcher, whom you know, Dave Sprau, confirmed the Milwaukee employees' complete refutation of your weird allegations. I say "weird" because you were never on the property and know nothing about it, much less have any reason to be making any claims about what Milwaukee Road did and did not do.

Why you felt an urgent need to barge onto a Milwaukee List and begin making wild accusations about Milwaukee Road's grades and comparing them to GN's grades remains something pondered by the residents of that List to this day. And you did so comparing the number of Helper Districts, the problem being the Milwaukee no longer had such a thing.

Nobody had even theretofore mentioned the GN in that context on the Milwaukee List, much less felt an obsessive need, as you clearly do, to make disparaging remarks about someone else's railroad.

The MILW list is primarily a list of retired employees and some railfans. A pretty gentle group, simply reminiscing. You barged on there with this series of accusations, that the Milwaukee was this, and the Milwaukee was that, compared to the wonderful GN. Well, I guess you got what you deserved.

Dave Sprau also asserted, in that context, that he felt Milwaukee's practice of assigning locomotive power made more sense than BN's at the time. That must have really burned you how rational BN people continue to view that era without a need to "color" every event in the fashion that you do.

You brought up the topic of Milwaukee helpers.

You were shot down by knowledgeable employees, and I think the episode illuminates your penchant for making things up and representing them as fact.

It also illuminating that you have continued to assert that I "claimed" there was no helper districts, which you have since repeated endlesssly, when in fact the written documentation of several employees pointed out there were no helpers after 1974, and the Company President had stated they had been abolished after 1974. My single response clearly stated,:

"I had thought there was a helper at Haugan after 1974. I would be interested to hear of any others."

Considerably different than what you have represented many times since then that I said. The usual falsification of an argument, because those are always easier to fit in with your diatribes, a lie in your book being easier to refute than a truth. Today's version now being that I have said there "were no grades at all."

The fact that you have turned even that remark into both an obsession and a fabrication is by now well documented.

And you ask, "why even make a point about Milwaukee helper districts?"

But, your question would have been a very good question to ask yourself when you first blundered into it by making an allegation that was false, about a railroad you knew nothing about. and had nothing to do with. What is your problem?

Why you did it, I have no idea.

Why you persist, I have no idea.

However, it did spark a more detailed look at GN, on my part, for sure. And its been very interesting supplying the detailed financial information that you apparently "overlooked."

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Anonymous]

Mark Meyer: So what you're saying is that those posts which do not provide specific documentation regarding a subjective observation are without merit?

Then I guess none of your posts have ever had merit.

You are clearly a lunatic to be so defensive about the Goat Trail. You clearly need psychological counseling.

[Murphy Siding]

Dave: Please take a break-go over and post on the Heydays vs. Nowadays thread. Thanks[:)]

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Dave: Please take a break-go over and post on the Heydays vs. Nowadays thread. Thanks[:)]

Murphy, Dave is perhaps more blunt about how this obsessiveness wastes everyone's time.

But, I have to defend against statements I have never, in fact made.

Is that fair?

Is there a reason that Mark Meyer would have a need -- and by this time, he's had plenty of chances to get it right -- to fabricate remarks and attribute them to me?

I have no idea what the reason would be. It's not rational. So, perhaps Dave is right.

There are plenty of honest arguments to be had, not these ongoing and apparently endless roundabouts of the same misquotes, over and over. They don't enhance anyone's understanding of anything, least of all mine or yours. They are time consuming for me.

And please note: I take the time, and offer you and everyone else the courtesy of footnoting my data and providing my sources because I think that an accurate and honest historical record is important before anyone even gets to the opinion phase. If you have any questions, you can usually see what my sources are. If that's a waste of people's time, then it's a waste of my time too. On the other hand, if there is a legitimate source, published or human, of contrary information, let me know.

Mark Meyer does not offer footnotes or sources, and of course he can't for the frequent outright misquotes.

I don't appreciate that manner of discussion, and can't see what the record has to gain by someone intentionally and repeatedly misquoting anyone else.

So, I do wonder why some folks insist on misrpresenting what I, or anyone else, might have to say about railroading.

I didn't learn anything about the GN today. Did you?

Best regards, Michael Sol

[kenneo]

No, and I am greatly sorry about that. I liked both the GN and the MILW. Both are now gone, as corporations, and also in some places as actual operating railroads.

In another post, Mr. Meyer stated something to the effect that it was a dishonor to his father not to hold and to defend the GN as superior. I don't understand that, but that is OK by me.

It would be very nice if we could return to learning and exchanging information.

[nanaimo73]

Mark-
Where was the highest point on the Great Northern ? Was it Elk Park Pass, and was this at 6,364' or 6,372' ?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Mark-
Where was the highest point on the Great Northern ? Was it Elk Park Pass, and was this at 6,364' or 6,372' ?

Is this a trick question?[;)]. I think that 6372' is higher than 6346'. But I could be wrong.[xx(] Seriously, I would have guessed the highest point would have been on a tunnel bored to cut down the climb over some summit.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Mark-
Where was the highest point on the Great Northern ? Was it Elk Park Pass, and was this at 6,364' or 6,372' ?

Is this a trick question?[;)]. I think that 6372' is higher than 6346'. But I could be wrong.[xx(] Seriously, I would have guessed the highest point would have been on a tunnel bored to cut down the climb over some summit.

Some of my maps have one height listed and some have the other listed. I don't know which is correct.
According to the map drawn by someone named Mark W Hemphill in Fred Hyde's Milwaukee Road Book (outstanding) the GN did not have a tunnel at the pass but did have one a mile closer to Butte.

[Anonymous]

I have to say this thread started off pretty interesting. I love the history of Great Northern being told since I am too young to remember it as a separate company before merger into BN in 1970. I hope this thread explores more history of GN, while the verbal boxing is cut back because I would like to read more history. Thanks.

Mike

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Mark-
Where was the highest point on the Great Northern ? Was it Elk Park Pass, and was this at 6,364' or 6,372' ?

Is this a trick question?[;)]. I think that 6372' is higher than 6346'. But I could be wrong.[xx(] Seriously, I would have guessed the highest point would have been on a tunnel bored to cut down the climb over some summit.

Some of my maps have one height listed and some have the other listed. I don't know which is correct.
According to the map drawn by someone named Mark W Hemphill in Fred Hyde's Milwaukee Road Book (outstanding) the GN did not have a tunnel at the pass but did have one a mile closer to Butte.

I can't answer your question exactly, but consulting TOPOZone.com, the GN line crossed through Elk Park Pass in a cut that was below 6360 feet and higher than 6340. Less than a mile from the pass, in Elk Park, is a benchmark at 6346 feet. The land appears to slope - very gently - up from +/- 6350 feet to the summit. On the face of it, it would appear, then, that neither number is correct, but even though the topo map shows a cut, the top of grade could actually be above the contour line and this fact not be reflected in the map. Making the assumption, then, that ONE of those number is correct, I would have to choose 6364 feet.

The freeway is parallel to and slightly above the old grade, being above the 6360 foot contour line. That could be the source of your 6372 foot number.

That "someone" named Mark W. Hemphill is a forum resident, former Editor of TRAINS, and now is employed by the Department of State.

[Murphy Siding]

Elk Park Pass is in the Rockies? Or the Cascades?

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Elk Park Pass is in the Rockies? Or the Cascades?

When standing in "beautiful" downtown Butte, Mt., you can see I-15 climbing the face of the escarpment to the Continental Divide just outside the city limits of Butte. Goes North to Helena. The place where it disappears from view is Elk Park Pass and on the other side is - ta-da - Elk Park.

Rockies. Spectacular bit of railroading that can be experienced close at hand from I-15.

GN's branch South from the Hi-Line to Helena and Butte. Line between a point just South of Helena and Butte abandoned many moons ago when Kennecott Copper decided to take title and possession of the ore under the RR between Elk Park Pass and Butte. Now, all there is, is a big hole in the ground, big tailing piles and bad HAZMAT conditions.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

GN's branch South from the Hi-Line to Helena and Butte. Line between a point just South of Helena and Butte abandoned many moons ago when Kennecott Copper decided to take title and possession of the ore under the RR between Elk Park Pass and Butte.

Anaconda Copper Mining Co.?

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

I've read about Lookout Pass. Is that on the GN or NP? Is it still part of the BNSF system?

Thanks

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I've read about Lookout Pass. Is that on the GN or NP? Is it still part of the BNSF system?

On the Northern Pacific. Sometimes called the "Wallace Branch." Part of the distance was over trackage rights on the CMStP&P beginning at St. Regis.

Abandoned years ago.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

From where to where?

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

From where to where?

Good grief, you type faster than I do.

There was flooding during the 1930s and the NP line from its mainline was partially washed out. NP obtained trackage rights over Milwaukee from St. Regis to, I believe, Haugan, Montana and then on the remaining NP line over Lookout Pass to Wallace, Idaho.

Best, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

From where to where?

Good grief, you type faster than I do.

There was flooding during the 1930s and the NP line from its mainline was partially washed out. NP obtained trackage rights over Milwaukee from St. Regis to, I believe, Haugan, Montana and then on the remaining NP line over Lookout Pass to Wallace, Idaho.

Best, Michael Sol

Good greif! That's exactly what I was thinking![:)]

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

GN's branch South from the Hi-Line to Helena and Butte. Line between a point just South of Helena and Butte abandoned many moons ago when Kennecott Copper decided to take title and possession of the ore under the RR between Elk Park Pass and Butte.

Anaconda Copper Mining Co.?

Best regards, Michael Sol

Whomever dug that hole in the ground. My somewhat faulty grey cells say Kennecott, but it could have been anybody. What's important is to watch your step around there. That first step is a lu-lu.

[nanaimo73]

The GN line from Butte to Basin was abandoned in 1972. This was the first GN line to cross the continental divide. Later on the GN crossed over at Marias Pass on the line to Seattle.
NP crossed the divide at Mullan and Homestake while Lookout was through the Bitterroots (4,680' ?). NP also had a subsidiary that crossed the divide at Bannock Pass.
I believe BN bought the Milwaukee line Michael mentioned (St. Regis to Haugan) early in 1980 and then abandoned it at the end of 1980.

[Murphy Siding]

In the northern part of the continent, is the continental divide formed by the Rockies,the Cascades or the Bitteroots?

[kenneo]

The Bitterroots are a range of mountians that are part of the Rockies. They form a portion of the border between Idaho and Montana. The "South Bank" of the Clark Fork River.

The Continental Divide is in the Rockies. Wanders all over the place, but drainage to the East goes to the Atlantic (actually, the Gulf of Mexico) and West into the Pacific. You will need a map to show you the actual location of the Divide since it meanders worse than a snakes snake.

Now, think about this. The Columbia River, which drains about 3/4ths of the US Pacific Northwest, slices a HUGE gap right through the Cascade Mountains. No Continental Divide there. (grin)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

The Bitterroots are a range of mountians that are part of the Rockies. They form a portion of the border between Idaho and Montana. The "South Bank" of the Clark Fork River.

The Continental Divide is in the Rockies. Wanders all over the place, but drainage to the East goes to the Atlantic (actually, the Gulf of Mexico) and West into the Pacific. You will need a map to show you the actual location of the Divide since it meanders worse than a snakes snake.

Now, think about this. The Columbia River, which drains about 3/4ths of the US Pacific Northwest, slices a HUGE gap right through the Cascade Mountains. No Continental Divide there. (grin)

I don't understand the part about the Columbia River.[%-)]

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

The Bitterroots are a range of mountians that are part of the Rockies. They form a portion of the border between Idaho and Montana. The "South Bank" of the Clark Fork River.

The Continental Divide is in the Rockies. Wanders all over the place, but drainage to the East goes to the Atlantic (actually, the Gulf of Mexico) and West into the Pacific. You will need a map to show you the actual location of the Divide since it meanders worse than a snakes snake.

Now, think about this. The Columbia River, which drains about 3/4ths of the US Pacific Northwest, slices a HUGE gap right through the Cascade Mountains. No Continental Divide there. (grin)

I don't understand the part about the Columbia River.[%-)]

Most streams start at the top of the Mountain and go down. The Columbia goes through the mountain. It is like one of the water gaps in the Apalachians.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

The Bitterroots are a range of mountians that are part of the Rockies. They form a portion of the border between Idaho and Montana. The "South Bank" of the Clark Fork River.

The Continental Divide is in the Rockies. Wanders all over the place, but drainage to the East goes to the Atlantic (actually, the Gulf of Mexico) and West into the Pacific. You will need a map to show you the actual location of the Divide since it meanders worse than a snakes snake.

Now, think about this. The Columbia River, which drains about 3/4ths of the US Pacific Northwest, slices a HUGE gap right through the Cascade Mountains. No Continental Divide there. (grin)

I don't understand the part about the Columbia River.[%-)]

Murphy,
The Columbia cuts through the Cascades in the gorge which forces Union Pacific and BNSF to run huge numbers of trains through it. This is an outstanding place to railfan. I think Kenneo lives there or close by and enjoys railfanning there.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

The Bitterroots are a range of mountians that are part of the Rockies. They form a portion of the border between Idaho and Montana. The "South Bank" of the Clark Fork River.

The Continental Divide is in the Rockies. Wanders all over the place, but drainage to the East goes to the Atlantic (actually, the Gulf of Mexico) and West into the Pacific. You will need a map to show you the actual location of the Divide since it meanders worse than a snakes snake.

Now, think about this. The Columbia River, which drains about 3/4ths of the US Pacific Northwest, slices a HUGE gap right through the Cascade Mountains. No Continental Divide there. (grin)

I don't understand the part about the Columbia River.[%-)]

Murphy,
The Columbia cuts through the Cascades in the gorge which forces Union Pacific and BNSF to run huge numbers of trains through it. This is an outstanding place to railfan. I think Kenneo lives there or close by and enjoys railfanning there.

That sure would explain his grin![^]