The Great Northern Railroad

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Ed,

You're the one who lives in the old Confederacy.

After living in OR, NJ, CO, TN, MS, IL, CA, TX, NE and VA I recall Oregon had some of the worse bigots of the lot.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

How did James J. Hill compare to his contemporary, E.H. Harriman?

Take a look at Maury Klein's biography of E. H. Harriman. After reading the book it is my impression EHH had a hard time cutting deals with his fellow railroad owners.

Why is that?

[edblysard]

Actually Dave,
We live in the New South, and are darn proud of it...we get things done here, instead of sitting around whining on the internet about how un fair the world is, because the big bad railroad wont help us out.
We take charge of things and change what needs to be changed, and help those who truly need it...as opposed to those just too stupid to get off their butts and work for a living.

I didn’t notice the fine folks of Montana sending any help to New Orleans, nor do I hear about Montana wheat farmers offering any help...Funny, two ambulance companies in California can send some of their vehicles and drivers, but I don’t see squat coming from you guys...other than complaints and comments to feed your self pity...your a sorry lot up there, and the Union would be a lot better off if you all moved to Canada.

Besides, you puntas aint got the guts to secede, you’re too dependent on the Federal teat to survive on your own and too frightened to try!


Ed

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

I didn’t notice the fine folks of Montana sending any help to New Orleans, nor do I hear about Montana wheat farmers offering any help...Funny, two ambulance companies in California can send some of their vehicles and drivers, but I don’t see squat coming from you guys...other than complaints and comments to feed your self pity...

Nice guy.

The usual careful attention to detail.

AP September 2. Gov. Brian Schweitzer signed an emergency order Friday making the state's National Guard troops available for Hurricane Katrina relief efforts if needed, calling the situation "a horrible catastrophe."

Montana's Guard units have not been called to help any states along the storm-ravaged Gulf Coast, but Schweitzer said he wanted state troops ready to "respond immediately if requested."

"It doesn't help if you're there in a month," he said. "People are starving to death down there."

State Guardsmen have provided some advice to the National Guard Bureau about sandbags and helicopter related equipment in the disaster area. More than 1,000 Montana troops are available if needed, Schweitzer said.

"As with any emergency, we are conducting prudent planning and stand ready to respond to the call of Governor Schweitzer," said Adj. Gen. Randy Mosley, head of the Montana National Guard.

Guard resources are generally pulled first from states closest to the disaster. Staff and equipment from areas further away often are called in later to sustain recovery efforts, Schweitzer said.

Montana has not yet been asked to shelter any hurricane refugees, but has sent dozens of volunteers to the area and on Friday filled a Chinook helicopter in Helena with more than 3,000 pounds of bottled water. There is a severe shortage of clean drinking water in many areas devastated by Katrina.

AP. September 5. A Montana helicopter has crashed while it idled on the ground waiting for more Hurricane Katrina evacuees in New Orleans.

The Puma chopper’s two crew members, Al Blain and Ebert Stanton, were not injured in the wreck Sunday afternoon, although Blain was cut in the face by part of the helicopter, said Gary Blain of Billings Flying Service.

The helicopter, however, was “destroyed” and likely won’t be recovered for weeks because of the flooding, Gary Blain said.

“It had been a successful mission to this point,” he said.

The helicopter had been flying about 10 hours a day in New Orleans before Sunday’s crash, helping evacuate hospital patients and nursing home residents.

AP September 6. Missoula Medical Aid, which sent teams of medical and health professionals to Honduras in the aftermath of Hurricane Mitch and relief workers to Indonesia in the wake of the tsunami last December, is preparing to send teams to Louisiana.

I've donated $150 to the Red Cross so far.

What have you done, Ed?

Best regards, Michael Sol

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

How did James J. Hill compare to his contemporary, E.H. Harriman?

Take a look at Maury Klein's biography of E. H. Harriman. After reading the book it is my impression EHH had a hard time cutting deals with his fellow railroad owners. Therefore, when TR was on the prowl for a trust to bust he knew no one on Wall Street would come to EHH's defense. EHH was operating outside J P Morgan's interests.

Oops. The Trust that was busted was the Northern Securities Co., a creation of JP Morgan and Hill to own the GN, NP, CBQ and affiliated roads under one ownership.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Actually Dave,
We live in the New South, and are darn proud of it...we get things done here

LOL! Yeah, we're all real impressed with your response to Katrina. Your mayor leaves 2000 buses in the lot to drown along with his constituents, your governor decides she needs another 24 hours before she'll let the feds in to help, your cops lead the looting party, then ya'll blame the President and the feds for not sending in the miracle SWAT team at the speed of sound to save a bunch of idiots who did not evacuate when they shoulda.

BTW, people from all 50 states have sent and are sending help in multiple forms, and have opened up all available space to house, clothe, feed, and school those who have lost everything for the time being. Just because you have closed your eyes to it doesn't mean it's not happening. We have all donated in some way to aid the victims of this tragedy, and all we get from you New Southerners is a bunch of backstabbing insults.

[edblysard]

Wrong city Dave...
We are a little more to the west, and a state away.
Besides sending several Guard units, and their support services, along with most of the charter buses services in the city, we have sent most of our linemen from Reliant Services, along with several groups of pipe layers and oil field workers to help with the gas lines, we are also organizing a search team to go help find and remove bodies, when FEMA allows such teams access.

We did open the Astrodome; fill it with food, cots, showers, and a school for the kids, a post office, social security office, DHHS office, and several medical clinics.
We turned Ellington field into a MASH style hospital, and have provided all available local hospital beds, and the services of doctors, to those air lifted out of the area.
We also sent one of our Life Flight Choppers there.
Then we opened Reliant Park and the GR Brown convention center as refugee camps too.
All three places, the Astrodome, Reliant Park, and the GR Brown convention center, have canceled all events till December, so the refugees have a place to live till then, free of charge.
We have opened a relocation center in each of these, which helps find low cost housing for these people, and have employment centers in each one also, so those who now have no job to go back to can seek employment here.

Every apartment complex in the city of Houston has volunteered the use of un- rented apartments for up to a year, free of charge, so these people can have a place to stay.

HISD has re opened two elementary schools that had been closed last year, staffed them, and not only encouraged the kids from Louisiana to enroll, but have managed to hire most of the displaced teachers from there also.

So far, as of this morning, we have accommodated over 250,000 people.

I volunteered to fill backpacks with school supplies, on my days off, all donated by our local Office Depot and Office Max and helped transport them, and then hand them out to the kids at the schools.
Next week, myself and a group from PTRA, are going to take a group of special needs kids to Astroworld.
On our dime, not the feds.
My wife volunteered, along with the rest of her office, to open a child support office at Reliant Park, and spent 4 hours yesterday assisting the people filling out their forms and filing the cases.
She is going back again today, for another four hours...all unpaid time, her office will rotate on four hour shifts till the end of this week, and then another office will take over.

Love Montana’s response...send a few cases of bottled water, offer "advice on sandbags"...brag about how they "are ready to help", and manage to cra***heir only helicopter in the process!
What a class act....guess your Governor will have to ride his bicycle to and from work now.

So Dave, what exactly have you done to help these folks?
Besides being Mike Sol’s sycophant, and a perpetual whiner and bootlick?

And Mike, what, besides inform them of how the Milwaukee road would have saved them, and post the numbers to show they could have done it at a greater savings then the GN, did you do to help these people?

Either of you send a check to the Red Cross...or get up off your butts and come help?
Or are all you two going to do is sit at your computers, and post smart assed remarks about how it should, could, or would have been done?

Well, its about time for Michael to jump in here and post how this is not relevant to his conversation about his favorite railroad, and invite me to leave his thread, and he is right, instead of trivial garbage about a failed railroad, this is about real people, in dire need.
So you two just keep on posting your juvenile, petty crap, stick you heads back in the sand, and get out of the way.
You’r both a waste of time.

Ed

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

How did James J. Hill compare to his contemporary, E.H. Harriman?

Take a look at Maury Klein's biography of E. H. Harriman. After reading the book it is my impression EHH had a hard time cutting deals with his fellow railroad owners. Therefore, when TR was on the prowl for a trust to bust he knew no one on Wall Street would come to EHH's defense. EHH was operating outside J P Morgan's interests.

Oops. The Trust that was busted was the Northern Securities Co., a creation of JP Morgan and Hill to own the GN, NP, CBQ and affiliated roads under one ownership.

Best regards, Michael Sol

Michael, find out the basics of railroad history. Harriman was a big owner in Northern Securities so he could gain shared control over the CB&Q. In addition their was a minor matter of the UP/SP trust. The Fed forced the UP to sell the SP.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Actually Dave,
We live in the New South, and are darn proud of it...we get things done here

LOL! Yeah, we're all real impressed with your response to Katrina. Your mayor leaves 2000 buses in the lot to drown along with his constituents, your governor decides she needs another 24 hours before she'll let the feds in to help, your cops lead the looting party, then ya'll blame the President and the feds for not sending in the miracle SWAT team at the speed of sound to save a bunch of idiots who did not evacuate when they shoulda...

WOW another morning cup of coffee from FM. Get a map a find New Orleans and then see if you can find Houston. It is in a place called Texas.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

How did James J. Hill compare to his contemporary, E.H. Harriman?

Take a look at Maury Klein's biography of E. H. Harriman. After reading the book it is my impression EHH had a hard time cutting deals with his fellow railroad owners. Therefore, when TR was on the prowl for a trust to bust he knew no one on Wall Street would come to EHH's defense. EHH was operating outside J P Morgan's interests.

Oops. The Trust that was busted was the Northern Securities Co., a creation of JP Morgan and Hill to own the GN, NP, CBQ and affiliated roads under one ownership.

Michael, find out the basics of railroad history. Harriman was a big owner in Northern Securities so he could gain shared control over the CB&Q. In addition their was a minor matter of the UP/SP trust. The Fed forced the UP to sell the SP.

"Find out the basics of railroad history."

Aaaahhh.

I have, in fact, read the original correspondence creating the Northern Securities Co in the Hill Archives at the James J. Hill Library in St. Paul. Dr. Thomas White, the curator there, came from the same history department and we share key common professors and interests.

I have also read Meyer's "The History of the Northern Securities Co.," as well as the 15 or so scholarly papers on the subject, and including ancillary studies such as "TR" by Brands. A friend and colleague, the late Mike Malone, discussed the Northern Securities Co. to an extent in his book "James J. Hill."

Harriman owned some stock. He owned stock in a lot or railroads. However, the purpose of the Northern Securities Co. is exactly as I described it.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

And Mike, what, besides inform them of how the Milwaukee road would have saved them, and post the numbers to show they could have done it at a greater savings then the GN, did you do to help these people?

Either of you send a check to the Red Cross...or get up off your butts and come help?

A lot of anger for someone who was 1) wrong again, 2) can't read [ie the part about the check to the Red Cross], 3) and can't maintain a civil discussion about anything, on-topic or off-topic.

I still haven't seen a single contribution about railroading other than "how much he knows" which Ed successfully refutes with each new post. Plenty of invective and opinion. Never any facts seem to come from all the time he spends at the computer keyboard, spewing garbage instead of helping people.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

How did James J. Hill compare to his contemporary, E.H. Harriman?

Take a look at Maury Klein's biography of E. H. Harriman. After reading the book it is my impression EHH had a hard time cutting deals with his fellow railroad owners. Therefore, when TR was on the prowl for a trust to bust he knew no one on Wall Street would come to EHH's defense. EHH was operating outside J P Morgan's interests.

Oops. The Trust that was busted was the Northern Securities Co., a creation of JP Morgan and Hill to own the GN, NP, CBQ and affiliated roads under one ownership.

Michael, find out the basics of railroad history. Harriman was a big owner in Northern Securities so he could gain shared control over the CB&Q. In addition their was a minor matter of the UP/SP trust. The Fed forced the UP to sell the SP.

"Find out the basics of railroad history."

Aaaahhh.

I have, in fact, read the original correspondence creating the Northern Securities Co in the Hill Archives at the James J. Hill Library in St. Paul. Dr. Thomas White, the curator there, came from the same history department and we share key common professors and interests.

I have also read Meyer's "The History of the Northern Securities Co.," as well as the 15 or so scholarly papers on the subject, and including ancillary studies such as "TR" by Brands. A friend and colleague, the late Mike Malone, discussed the Northern Securities Co. to an extent in his book "James J. Hill."

Harriman owned some stock. He owned stock in a lot or railroads. However, the purpose of the Northern Securities Co. is exactly as I described it.

Best regards, Michael Sol

But did you learn anything? I think not. Of course anything beyond MT is too much for your limited world.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Did CBQ, FWD, and Rock Island joint venture all 3 have lines into Houston at one time, or was there some overlap of trackage?

Murphy-
The guy that started this thread wanted to know about the Great Northern. Find a mirror and ask if you can change the topic. Do both of you speak Norwegian ?
The CB&Q never made it to Texas.
The Colorado and Southern owned the Fort Worth and Denver which went to Dallas. In 1905 the C&S bought the Trinity and Brazos Valley which went from Dallas to Houston and had trackage rights to Galveston. In 1906 the C&S sold half of the T&BV to the CRI&P which also ended in Dallas. The CB&Q bought the C&S in 1908. In 1930 the T&BV became the Burlington-Rock Island.
On June 1, 1950 the B-RI ceased operation and the CRI&P and the CB&Q-C&S-FW&D took 5 years turns operating the trackage. When the Rock died in 1980 the trackage became part of the FW&D, which merged into BN at the end of 1982.
I just finished reading a book called Merging Lines. You would really enjoy it. Why don't you see if your library has it ?

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox
Michael, find out the basics of railroad history. In addition their was a minor matter of the UP/SP trust. The Fed forced the UP to sell the SP.
.......

The Supreme Court opinion forcing the SP sale was handed down in December, 1912.

Harriman had been dead for three years.

Roosevelt had been out of office for four years.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Did CBQ, FWD, and Rock Island joint venture all 3 have lines into Houston at one time, or was there some overlap of trackage?

Murphy-
The guy that started this thread wanted to know about the Great Northern. Find a mirror and ask if you can change the topic. Do both of you speak Norwegian ?
The CB&Q never made it to Texas.
The Colorado and Southern owned the Fort Worth and Denver which went to Dallas. In 1905 the C&S bought the Trinity and Brazos Valley which went from Dallas to Houston and had trackage rights to Galveston. In 1906 the C&S sold half of the T&BV to the CRI&P which also ended in Dallas. The CB&Q bought the C&S in 1908. In 1930 the T&BV became the Burlington-Rock Island.
On June 1, 1950 the B-RI ceased operation and the CRI&P and the CB&Q-C&S-FW&D took 5 years turns operating the trackage. When the Rock died in 1980 the trackage became part of the FW&D, which merged into BN at the end of 1982.
I just finished reading a book called Merging Lines. You would really enjoy it. Why don't you see if your library has it ?

Norweigan?! [:0] That might be an insult. but I'm not sure. Who is the author of Merging Lines? Our library is more in tune with John Deere than J.J. Hill.[;)]

[nanaimo73]

Murphy-
http://www3.niu.edu/univ_press/books/265-6.htm

If you are interested in the death of the Milwaukee Road, look for The Nation Pays Again, byThomas Ploss.

If your library does not have them, request an interlibrary loan.

[Murphy Siding]

nanaimo73: Thanks. Is the author related to A Saunders that with the NYC?

[Anonymous]

Since when did Texas become the sole proprieter of the "New South". Seems Ed's posts were in reference to the "New South", not Texas. Is not Louisiana a part of the New South?

BTW, I gave cash, several times. The company I work for right now has donated money, crews, and equipment. The states I work in have donated buildings, food, water, housing, and have enrolled the newly homeless kids into schools. Everyone has pitched in, and Ed owes us an apology for being so ignorant and crass toward this part of the country.

Wasn't this supposed to be a GN thread? Is the GN that boring?

[Murphy Siding]

FM: did you read the 24 hour thread?

[Anonymous]

I did, with about 10 hours to spare. You are of course correct, but sometimes you need to walk a mile in another man's shoes to see what's really going on.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Murphy-
http://www3.niu.edu/univ_press/books/265-6.htm

If you are interested in the death of the Milwaukee Road, look for The Nation Pays Again, byThomas Ploss.

If your library does not have them, request an interlibrary loan.

Is this book worth the $50 or so investment I would have to make to obtain it?

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

How did James J. Hill compare to his contemporary, E.H. Harriman?

Take a look at Maury Klein's biography of E. H. Harriman. After reading the book it is my impression EHH had a hard time cutting deals with his fellow railroad owners. Therefore, when TR was on the prowl for a trust to bust he knew no one on Wall Street would come to EHH's defense. EHH was operating outside J P Morgan's interests.

Oops. The Trust that was busted was the Northern Securities Co., a creation of JP Morgan and Hill to own the GN, NP, CBQ and affiliated roads under one ownership.

Michael, find out the basics of railroad history. Harriman was a big owner in Northern Securities so he could gain shared control over the CB&Q. In addition their was a minor matter of the UP/SP trust. The Fed forced the UP to sell the SP.

"Find out the basics of railroad history."

Aaaahhh.

I have, in fact, read the original correspondence creating the Northern Securities Co in the Hill Archives at the James J. Hill Library in St. Paul. Dr. Thomas White, the curator there, came from the same history department and we share key common professors and interests.

I have also read Meyer's "The History of the Northern Securities Co.," as well as the 15 or so scholarly papers on the subject, and including ancillary studies such as "TR" by Brands. A friend and colleague, the late Mike Malone, discussed the Northern Securities Co. to an extent in his book "James J. Hill."

Harriman owned some stock. He owned stock in a lot or railroads. However, the purpose of the Northern Securities Co. is exactly as I described it.

Best regards, Michael Sol

But did you learn anything? I think not. Of course anything beyond MT is too much for your limited world.

Your usual classy remarks.

Hill was appalled at what he found when he inspected the Burlington after its purchase. He found himself admonishing the president of the Burlington that the track between St. Paul and Chicago was in poor shape, that the Burlington’s bookkeeping was terrible, that he was sending in Great Northern Bookkeepers to completely revise the Burlington books, that the trains were run highly inefficiently, and the Burlington was not doing business at a reasonable cost.

Although the Milwaukee Road had employed the highly talented John Stevens for many of its location surveys in the important state of Iowa, Hill was surprised to learn that the Burlington's mileage in that state -- on "comparatively level prairies" -- was so poorly located that the ruling grades on many CB&Q lines were worse than Great Northern grades in the mountain districts of the Rockies. [Letter, Hill to George Harris, January 6, 1902, JJH Letterbook, 3/13/99-5/30/02, p. 372, Hill Papers, James J. Hill Reference Library.]



What is interesting is that although he felt CBQ had poorer grades and overall design than his own Great Northern, he also enthused that, as a company, "I am more pleased with the purchase every day. It is really the strongest property of the three." [Hill to Kennedy, September 7, 1901.]

Therein you have James J. Hill's assessment: that the company is more important than its physical attributes.

Regarding your allegation that the Northern Securities Co. litigation was Roosevelt's effort to take down Harriman, that is complete bunk.

Firstly, the Northern Securities Co had been designed by Hill as a holding company before the NP stock raid, in Feburary, 1899. [Memorandum on Holding Co. 2/8/1899]. Harriman was nowhere in sight.

Secondly, "Harriman's" interest in the Northern Securities Co. was limited to 23% of the stock and 20% of the directors. Hill, Morgan and allies controlled 80%. Harriman had traded a slightly minority interest in the NP for a very minority interest in the Northern Securities Co.

So, when Bob Wilcox states that "when TR was on the prowl for a trust to bust he knew no one on Wall Street would come to EHH's defense. EHH was operating outside J P Morgan's interests" this of course is absolute nonsense because it would mean that Roosevelt had to sue Morgan in order to get Harriman, which isn't much evidence to support the Wilcox contention that Harriman was "outside Morgan's interests."

In fact, Hill and Morgan carried on the entire legal battle with the US Government for the Northern Securities Co. Then, when Northern Securities Co was ordered dissolved, it was a huge blow to Morgan and Hill. Harriman was delighted as it gave him (more probably Wm Rockefeller on behalf of the Milwaukee) another crack at control of the NP.

It was Harriman who then sued Hill and Morgan over "their" plan for distributing the assets of the Northern Securities, which cleverly avoided returning to hm his prior stake in the NP. Harriman v. Northern Securities Co.. 197 U.S. 244 (1905).

No one was ever under the illusion that Roosevelt's action against the Northern Securities Co was an action against Harriman.

Except Bob Wilcox.

But, those are the "basics of railroad history."

It must be a "Limited World" indeed, Bob.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Wrong city Dave...
, along with several groups of pipe layers
Ed

hey, i like to lay pipe! [;)] lol

[Anonymous]

soooooo...i can't quote worth a shiit yet. and also i have nothing worthwhile to say except i feel bad for the poor guy who posted this topic. i have 2 sets of boxing gloves if you guys want to duke it out. elimination bracket, best of 3...what do u think?

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Murphy-
http://www3.niu.edu/univ_press/books/265-6.htm

If you are interested in the death of the Milwaukee Road, look for The Nation Pays Again, byThomas Ploss.

If your library does not have them, request an interlibrary loan.

Is this book worth the $50 or so investment I would have to make to obtain it?

I think you should try the interlibrary route first.

[PNWRMNM]

Murphy,

"The Nation Pays Again" is one of the very few books I own that I would not recommend to anyone.

It is a highly biased rant against the evil BN for putting the MILW out of business. Ploss went to work for the MILW and lost his position somewhere along the way. He was shocked, shocked mind you, that the BN competed against the MILW at the gateways which the ICC forced the BN to open.

Mac

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PNWRMNM

Murphy,

"The Nation Pays Again" is one of the very few books I own that I would not recommend to anyone.

It is a highly biased rant against the evil BN for putting the MILW out of business. Ploss went to work for the MILW and lost his position somewhere along the way. He was shocked, shocked mind you, that the BN competed against the MILW at the gateways which the ICC forced the BN to open.

Wellll, it was the manner in which BN competed through the Gateways. This is an interesting take on this Mac. Milwaukee officials felt it was highly biased against them. Most senior executives refused to read it and the very mention of it usually brings forth very strong feelings.

It's an odd book in some ways, many ways. An unusual writing style. I know Tom Ploss quite well and even Milwaukee President Worth Smith acknowledges that Ploss's work on key Gateway conditions was outstanding legal work, particularly on the Louisville Gateway entry, that "he's a very bright guy."

Ploss was one of Milwaukee's senior attorneys, directly involved in many of the key events of the time, and so the book is an "insider's" perspective of what was going on during the 1970s.

Very critical of Milwaukee management, but also in the fashion that he felt BN "evaded" the Gateway Conditions, not that they competed, but in the manner that they competed (i.e. memos discovered threatening shippers with retaliation). But this is a GN thread and the book is controversial enough to generate its own thread.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by PNWRMNM

Murphy,

"The Nation Pays Again" is one of the very few books I own that I would not recommend to anyone.

It is a highly biased rant against the evil BN for putting the MILW out of business. Ploss went to work for the MILW and lost his position somewhere along the way. He was shocked, shocked mind you, that the BN competed against the MILW at the gateways which the ICC forced the BN to open.

Wellll, it was the manner in which BN competed through the Gateways. This is an interesting take on this Mac. Milwaukee officials felt it was highly biased against them. Most senior executives refused to read it and the very mention of it usually brings forth very strong feelings.

It's an odd book in some ways, many ways. An unusual writing style. I know Tom Ploss quite well and even Milwaukee President Worth Smith acknowledges that Ploss's work on key Gateway conditions was outstanding legal work, particularly on the Louisville Gateway entry, that "he's a very bright guy."

Ploss was one of Milwaukee's senior attorneys, directly involved in many of the key events of the time, and so the book is an "insider's" perspective of what was going on during the 1970s.

Very critical of Milwaukee management, but also in the fashion that he felt BN "evaded" the Gateway Conditions, not that they competed, but in the manner that they competed (i.e. memos discovered threatening shippers with retaliation). But this is a GN thread and the book is controversial enough to generate its own thread.

Best regards, Michael Sol

Wouldn't behavior like that have gotten someone in legal trouble?

[MichaelSol]

Murphy, I put a comment on the Milwaukee thread about this.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

It's an interesting psychological analysis, in that Mr. Sol has relayed the faults the have occured with the Milwaukee, but you admit no faults with the GN despite the overwelming evidence of such faults from a variety of credible sources. That makes Mr. Sol the realist, and you the obsessed neurotic.

Well, overwhelming is subjective, I suppose. You can believe Mr. Sol, the same person who claims that GN trains like the Empire Builder never went to Portland or who claims that by having no helper districts there are no grades (applicable evidently only to the Milwaukee), or on the other hand, you can look at the 45 trains a daily that traverse Montana on the former GN main line and wonder if it is a fluke.

Dave, instead of making such pointless posts in the future, you reputation would be better served to bolster some of the claims you've made in past, like your one on August 26 stating, "It's simple: John Stevens stumbles across Marias Pass, and suddenly James Hill is a genius. Without Marias Pass, the GN would have been BY FAR the worst of the Northern transcons in terms of profile and alignment, worse than the Northern Pacific, worse than the Milwaukee, worse than the Union Pacific." I've asked you on numerous occasions to document the specific operating characteristics of each route to prove your point. Are you going to do it, or really is this just proof that your posts are without merit?