The Great Northern Railroad

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

If GN And NP didn'y buy much stam in the 20's and 30's, did that put them ahead of the curve in the coming diesel revolution?

Actually, NP bought plenty of steam locos right into the 1940's. They bought their last 18 Northern types and 26 Challenger types as late as 1943.

GN didn't buy much steam after the 1930's, but they built much of their own steam into the 1940's as well.

So what?

They had this huge traffic boom caused by WWII and they could not buy diesel locomotives in the quantities they wanted because of wartime ratiioning. If they were going to be able to acquire a locomotive, it was likely to be a steam locomotive whether they wanted such a thing or not. You don't always get your first choice.

The diesels were needed in submarines, the Callenger Locomotives could be made at otherwise surplus and obsolete steam locomotive factories. That's why they took Challengers instead of FT's, the Challengers were what they could get.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Why did the "Hill Interests" build the Spokane,Portland & Seattle as a jointly owned venture? Couldn't either GN or NP have just made it an extension of their own line? Or maybe each could have extended their own lines to form what became SP&S? Had it been a joint effort for some tax advantage, why wasn't it split 3 ways- with CBQ a one third owner? Given it's ownership, I'm surprised to learn that SP&S was run quite independantly.

Since the SP&S mainly benefitted the GN, and GN didn't have the cash for the whole project, NP was forced to chip in on a project that really didn't benefit them. All the NP really got from the SP&S was bridge between Portland and Vancouver. Otherwise, SP&S's line from Spokane to Pasco was superfluous to NP's own line. You'll notice the NP didn't get no California connection or an 8 mile tunnel under it's Cascade crossing. That's the whole fun of squeezing the *** child for the Empire Builder's pet.

[daveklepper]

True about the steam, and they were not the only ones forced into that position, the D&RGW being another. And note they used off-the-shelf designs.

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

True about the steam, and they were not the only ones forced into that position, the D&RGW being another. And note they used off-the-shelf designs.

I believe the War Production Board decreed that any new steam locomotives had to be off-the-shelf designs.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Why did the "Hill Interests" build the Spokane,Portland & Seattle as a jointly owned venture? Couldn't either GN or NP have just made it an extension of their own line? Or maybe each could have extended their own lines to form what became SP&S? Had it been a joint effort for some tax advantage, why wasn't it split 3 ways- with CBQ a one third owner? Given it's ownership, I'm surprised to learn that SP&S was run quite independantly.

Since the SP&S mainly benefitted the GN, and GN didn't have the cash for the whole project, NP was forced to chip in on a project that really didn't benefit them. All the NP really got from the SP&S was bridge between Portland and Vancouver. Otherwise, SP&S's line from Spokane to Pasco was superfluous to NP's own line. You'll notice the NP didn't get no California connection or an 8 mile tunnel under it's Cascade crossing. That's the whole fun of squeezing the *** child for the Empire Builder's pet.

Does it really matter which pocket the dollar goes in, if both pockets are in the same pair of pants?[;)]

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Why did the "Hill Interests" build the Spokane,Portland & Seattle as a jointly owned venture? Couldn't either GN or NP have just made it an extension of their own line? Or maybe each could have extended their own lines to form what became SP&S? Had it been a joint effort for some tax advantage, why wasn't it split 3 ways- with CBQ a one third owner? Given it's ownership, I'm surprised to learn that SP&S was run quite independantly.

Since the SP&S mainly benefitted the GN, and GN didn't have the cash for the whole project, NP was forced to chip in on a project that really didn't benefit them. All the NP really got from the SP&S was bridge between Portland and Vancouver. Otherwise, SP&S's line from Spokane to Pasco was superfluous to NP's own line. You'll notice the NP didn't get no California connection or an 8 mile tunnel under it's Cascade crossing. That's the whole fun of squeezing the *** child for the Empire Builder's pet.

Does it really matter which pocket the dollar goes in, if both pockets are in the same pair of pants?[;)]

Well, it does matter because there are a large number of independent investors out there. The NP was not a wholly owned subsidiary of the GN, nor even close. However, as in many corporations, a minority interest can effectively control key decisions.

It was the manipulation of public corporations for insider and minority advantage that prompted the creation of the Securities & Exchange Commission in 1933, partly as a result of the Milwaukee Road receivership, because both pockets are, rarely if at all, "in the same pair of pants." More typically, the transfer is from one pair of pants to another.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

MichaelSol: I'm reading "Merging Lines" , by Richard Saunders, Jr. Can you explain the *gateways* that BN opened up to the Milwaukee Road as part of it's merger plan? What they were,how they worked, and their success or failure?


Thanks

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

MichaelSol: I'm reading "Merging Lines" , by Richard Saunders, Jr. Can you explain the *gateways* that BN opened up to the Milwaukee Road as part of it's merger plan? What they were,how they worked, and their success or failure?

There were 11 Western Gateways under one of the merger conditions, a 12th Gateway under another condition., and a 13th Gateway under yet another condition.

Fargo and Linton, ND, Miles City, Judith Gap, Great Falls, Bozeman, Butte and Missoula, MT, Spokane, Tacoma and Seattle, WA. were the original 11 Western Gateways.

Previously, Milwaukee had been "shorthauled" at Twin Cities terminals. The Northern Lines refused to set joint rates for traffic west of the Twin Citites, so Milwaukee had no choice but to turn over traffic bound for points West if the destination was located on one or the other of the Northern Lines. MILW was a substantial provider of long haul traffic to the Northern Lines prior to 1970. The Gateways opened both ways, BN could solicit Milwaukee traffic onto its lines at the Gateways as well.

On March 3, 1970, the Eleven Western Gateways condition took effect.

On August 6, 1970, Milwaukee began serving Billings, Montana. This was a separate merger condition, but included not only traffic solicitation but an additional Gateway as well. Milwaukee contracted with BN to haul Milwaukee traffic, connecting at Miles City, Judith Gap and Bozeman.

On March 22, 1971, Milwaukee began serving Portland, Oregon as yet another condition imposed on the Burlington Northern merger. Portland was also a Gateway.

The Gateway Conditions resulted in the following annual revenues by 1974:

Fargo $243,098.88
Linton $35,114.24
Miles City: $2,999,260.16
Bozeman $32,492.80
Butte $1,443,281.92
Great Falls $253,443.84
Judith Gap $25,043.20
Missoula $93,035.52
Spokane $2,625,789.44
Seattle $6,604,725.76
Tacoma $439,040.00
Portland $12,791,784.96
Total: Gateway Revenue, 1974. $27,586,110.72

Billings, Montana generated negligible Gateway traffic.

The total accumulated Gateway Revenue, years 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, and 1974 is about $100 million.

In addition, however, there was some exceptional agency growth not directly resulting from the Gateways, but possibly inferentially associated with those conditions.

Billings $1,586,480.64
Great Falls $772,220.16
Butte $1,729,383.68
Spokane $1,100,688.64
Kent $ $9,401,943.04
Seattle $4,947,276.8
Tacoma $4,980,704
Portland $12,604,263.68
Total: $37,102,960.64

Now, these are not totals. These numbers represent increases over 1969 figures, except for Portland and Billings, of course.

For the year 1974 alone, these represented an additional $64,689,071.36 in combined revenues on Lines West due to the Gateway Conditions and other traffic growth. The net for the five years, 1970-1974, close to $250 million. This was new revenue to the Milwaukee Road, solely as a result of traffic growth on Lines West.

By 1978, the total revenues obtained as a result of the Gateways and other improved traffic on Lines West totaled approximately $592,400,655. This was additional revenue from the agencies identified above. This was huge.

The Gateways were a roaring success from the standpoint of the Milwaukee Road., although they were protrayed as a failure by some -- obviously not based on the actual revenue records.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

Before the Gateways, a carload going from Chicago to a destination on the GN in Washington HAD to go on GN west of St. Paul? Is that what you mean by the joint rates statement?

Thanks

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Before the Gateways, a carload going from Chicago to a destination on the GN in Washington HAD to go on GN west of St. Paul? Is that what you mean by the joint rates statement?

There were a few exceptions, lumber and some things like that, but in general, yes. Best regards, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

Did any other railroads ask for gateways as part of the merger approval?

[Anonymous]

One other interesting tidbit, although the mere mention of it in the past has caused much vitriolicism - When the Northern Lines merged into BN back in 1970, there were a few places where the muliple lines were consolidated along with new trackage to reduce excess capacity (namely Spokane to Sandpoint). However, one simple project seemed to have been overlooked, and that would have been to build a new 30 mile 1% cut-off line from Silver City MT (on the ex GN Butte line between Great Falls and Helena) to the east portal of Mullan Tunnel. This simple project would have concievably allowed the new BN to either embargo or abandon both the entire GN Marias Pass line from Havre to Sandpoint ID, and the NP Bozeman Pass line from Helena to Billings, consolidating all westbound traffic at Great Falls and all eastbound traffic at Spokane through a single corridor.

I have heard that BN once considered sending all Mullan Pass bound traffic from Billings via the Great Falls line, allowing the Bozeman Pass line to be embargoed, so there was some of the same thought processes going on, but I don't know if the new BN ever considered sending all High Line traffic via Great Falls and Mullan, either through Helena or via the aforementioned by-pass.

[Murphy Siding]

vitrolicism? Man ,I'll swear sometimes you're making up words![;)]

[Anonymous]

Murphy - You gotta give a guy time to proofread!

[Murphy Siding]

Like I'd know what the word meant, whether it was spelled right or wrong![(-D]

[Murphy Siding]

A wee-bit of topic, but not much: I read that the newly merged BN had to make a lot of improvements to get ready for serious PRB coal hauling. Among them was daylighting tunnels in western Nebraska and western South Dakota. (?). Where in the world is the author talking about? The Burlington had a line up from Edgemont, S.D. that hauled some coal up to Lead, S.D. I'm sure this line had tunnels,but why would they need improvements? And western Nebraska?

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
[br However, one simple project seemed to have been overlooked, and that would have been to build a new 30 mile 1% cut-off line from Silver City MT (on the ex GN Butte line between Great Falls and Helena) to the east portal of Mullan Tunnel. This simple project would have concievably allowed the new BN to either embargo or abandon both the entire GN Marias Pass line from Havre to Sandpoint ID, and the NP Bozeman Pass line from Helena to Billings, consolidating all westbound traffic at Great Falls and all eastbound traffic at Spokane through a single corridor.

Dave,
I believe the ex GN Great Falls to Helena line is closed due to unstable ground south of Great Falls.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

A wee-bit of topic, but not much: I read that the newly merged BN had to make a lot of improvements to get ready for serious PRB coal hauling. Among them was daylighting tunnels in western Nebraska and western South Dakota. (?). Where in the world is the author talking about? The Burlington had a line up from Edgemont, S.D. that hauled some coal up to Lead, S.D. I'm sure this line had tunnels,but why would they need improvements? And western Nebraska?

Murphy,
BNSF has a main coal train route from the top of the Orin Line at Donkey Creek, Wyoming
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1190&Y=12259&W

that heads southeast through Newcastle
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=703&Y=6069&W
and then through Edgemont
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=744&Y=5993&W
and Crawford which is or was a helper base for the 13 mile 2.2 % grade over the Pine Ridge
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=787&Y=5908&W also called Crawford Hill in Nebraska which had Nebraska's only rail tunnel
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=396&Y=2947&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=88681

and joining other lines at the big terminal at Alliance.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=422&Y=2912&W
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=88608
This is a pdf map of the Powder River division.
http://www.bnsf.com/tools/reference/division_maps/div_pr.pdf
I believe this was South Dakota's last passenger route.

[Murphy Siding]

The coal line I understand. I lived in Gillette in the early 80's. It's the tunnel comment that I don't quite get.

[nanaimo73]

The tunnel at Crawford Hill was bypassed and not daylighted. The rails are gone but the tunnel is still there. I believe some tunnels were daylighted around Newcastle, Wyoming. I can't find any tunnels on this line in SD.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

The tunnel at Crawford Hill was bypassed and not daylighted. The rails are gone but the tunnel is still there. I believe some tunnels were daylighted around Newcastle, Wyoming. I can't find any tunnels on this line in SD.

What ? [:0]. No terraserver link to the former Crawford tunnel?[:)] I know there were a few short tunnels on the SD line up to Lead.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
[br However, one simple project seemed to have been overlooked, and that would have been to build a new 30 mile 1% cut-off line from Silver City MT (on the ex GN Butte line between Great Falls and Helena) to the east portal of Mullan Tunnel. This simple project would have concievably allowed the new BN to either embargo or abandon both the entire GN Marias Pass line from Havre to Sandpoint ID, and the NP Bozeman Pass line from Helena to Billings, consolidating all westbound traffic at Great Falls and all eastbound traffic at Spokane through a single corridor.

Dave,
I believe the ex GN Great Falls to Helena line is closed due to unstable ground south of Great Falls.

Yes, that's correct, although "unstable ground" under other parts of the BNSF system doesn't seem to result in indefinate closures. The GF-Helena line is closed because it is currently superfluous to BNSF's operations, and as part of the I-15 corridor BNSF has the keys to this gateway, and they ain't gonna open it for UP/CP's sake.

BNSF likes to exaggerate things like washouts and such that occur on embargoed lines, because then the "exorbitant costs" of rebuilding such washed-out sections makes getting an abandoment rubber stamp from the STB that much easier.

I personally hiked the several sections of such washouts a few years ago on BN's ex-Spokane to Lewiston line, and the news accounts of what it would take to restore those sections did not jive with what I actually saw. I could've filled those "washouts" myself in a day or two with a shovel and wheelbarrow, and I could have done so for far less than the "millions" of dollars BNSF said it would take to repair those sections.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

The tunnel at Crawford Hill was bypassed and not daylighted. The rails are gone but the tunnel is still there. I believe some tunnels were daylighted around Newcastle, Wyoming. I can't find any tunnels on this line in SD.

I looked over the Terraserver images of Crawford Hill pretty closely. I don't see what looks like a decommisioned railroad grade to a tunnel. Do you see one?

[nanaimo73]

It should be around here
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=10&Z=13&X=3175&Y=23580&W

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

It should be around here
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=10&Z=13&X=3175&Y=23580&W

OK, it's like one of those fuzzy-pattern pictures in the Sunday comics. If you squint your eyes and make everything *fuzzy*, you can see an image in the picture. Does anybody else see an old tunnel near Crawford Hill in the image?

[Murphy Siding]

hey nanaimo73: I just finished "Main Lines". I feel like I've read a 20 volume set of encyclopedias-condensed into 2 books! Boy, is my head full now.[:D]. Next step is to tap into the State and University library card catalogs that these 2 came from.[;)]

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing.

C&NW
Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton
CSPM&O
Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside
M&SL
Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola

Here is you tunnel-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W
There is a long cut on the south side leading up to it. It is used as a road by BNSF MOW vehicles.

[Murphy Siding]

I see it now. Wasn't avery long tunnel. I wonder why they didn't juat daylight it when the line was put in?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

The tunnel at Crawford Hill was bypassed and not daylighted. The rails are gone but the tunnel is still there. I believe some tunnels were daylighted around Newcastle, Wyoming. I can't find any tunnels on this line in SD.

I think I found a tunnel on the CBQ line up to Lead. It's "2 km south of Mystic, SD". I was sure I'd find one nearer to Custer, SD. The entire area around there is made up of big, honkin' granite mountains-like what Mt. Rushmore and Crazy Horse Mt. are made of.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
[br However, one simple project seemed to have been overlooked, and that would have been to build a new 30 mile 1% cut-off line from Silver City MT (on the ex GN Butte line between Great Falls and Helena) to the east portal of Mullan Tunnel. This simple project would have concievably allowed the new BN to either embargo or abandon both the entire GN Marias Pass line from Havre to Sandpoint ID, and the NP Bozeman Pass line from Helena to Billings, consolidating all westbound traffic at Great Falls and all eastbound traffic at Spokane through a single corridor.

Dave,
I believe the ex GN Great Falls to Helena line is closed due to unstable ground south of Great Falls.

Yes, that's correct, although "unstable ground" under other parts of the BNSF system doesn't seem to result in indefinate closures. The GF-Helena line is closed because it is currently superfluous to BNSF's operations, and as part of the I-15 corridor BNSF has the keys to this gateway, and they ain't gonna open it for UP/CP's sake.

BNSF likes to exaggerate things like washouts and such that occur on embargoed lines, because then the "exorbitant costs" of rebuilding such washed-out sections makes getting an abandoment rubber stamp from the STB that much easier.

I personally hiked the several sections of such washouts a few years ago on BN's ex-Spokane to Lewiston line, and the news accounts of what it would take to restore those sections did not jive with what I actually saw. I could've filled those "washouts" myself in a day or two with a shovel and wheelbarrow, and I could have done so for far less than the "millions" of dollars BNSF said it would take to repair those sections.

What is the I-15 corridor? Sounds more like an interstate hiway to me.