What Should Be Done . . .

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gacuster

Flashing lights and gates make crossings safer but of course are expensive. Twenty years ago I was on the local PD and ticketed several drivers for "slaloming" around crossing gates on a busy street. The fine then was $180 and 6 points off your license (out of 12) which was pretty steep. But as others have noted, the police have many, many other responsibilities and the only reason I caught those drivers was just happening to be there when the violation occurred.
The plain fact is alot of drivers are just too careless, stupid, old, inexperienced or all of the above, and shouldn't even be allowed to drive, but until they do something really dumb they keep on blundering around. Maybe showing a graphic film of the aftermath of a grade crossing accident in driver's ed classes would make people think a little bit.

Perhaps more cooperation between the RR Police and City/County/State Police would help. Something more has to be done. The public has taken the Vanderbuilt idea of "The public be dammed" and turned the tables making it, "The railroads be dammed." More tickets and points off a license might be a very good start. About twice a week I get caught by a train and have to wait, and it is going yard speed. If I can wait for a long freight to pass doing yard speed I don't see why the public can't wait for a freight doing 30 mph.

[jchnhtfd]

In response to one comment, I think Operation Lifesaver does work -- particularly in locations where it is possible to make presentations in area high schools. In spite of what appearances may be, the majority of young people don't want to do dumb things with their cars (although parents find that hard to believe!) but they often haven't had the experience to know what 'dumb' is vs. 'exciting' (which they do want to do).

I don't think Operation Lifesaver has much impact on adults, however.

It would help a great deal if law enforcement were much stricter for crossing violations (and, in New England, for DUI -- someone above said that DUI gets your license pulled -- not in Connecticut, at least; just get a decent lawyer and off you go). This is NOT a policing problem, but a judicial problem. I'm not, and never have been, a policeman, but it must be very discouraging to them to give someone a ticket for a crossing (or red light -- folks blow through them, too) violation and then see the judge give a minor slap on the wrist, if anything.

Obviously the real solution is grade separation, and I heartily agree with those who advocate separation and crossing elimination -- but I also heartily agree with Mookie and MC: where does the money come from? It should come from the highway trust fund, but (cynic that I am) it seems that the politicos have other uses for that...

[coborn35]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

If cameras can be installed at the most frequently abused crossings, certainly the law needs to be enforced vigorously. I would also suggest that where the errant vehicles can be identified, then the insurers of those vehicles should be informed. After all, might they not have some serious reservations about renewing the policy of a driver who looks likely to cause a $multi million claim?

It would only help to a small degree. You cant ticket or reprimand someones who's dead.

[Anonymous]

Has anyone recently looked at www.operationlifesaver.com? A lot of your answers can be found there. OL began in 1972-interesting.
Operation Lifesaver is a public service program which is very available to those who request it. There is the education answer to the first part of the original post.

Ticketing a crossing incident violator is effective only if there is a survivor.

Patrolmen riding in the lead engines? This was recently done in Wichita (UP) for survey purposes. Not sure of the results.

Highway crews maintaining crossing equipment? Having trouble now just maintaining and repairing roadways. Don't need extra responsibilities.

In my area, BNSF has posted "STOP, Private RR Crossing" signs at all non-signaled/non-lighted rural crossings.

I feel that the education and signaling and signage is out there, it is just up to the individual vehicle operator to be responsible enough for his/her own actions. Granted it is unfortunate for the innocent victim. For them, I have no answer.

Also, the crew of the locomotive have this to live with for the rest of their lives as earlier mentioned.

Just my opinion,

Roland

[DrummingTrainfan]

I think that the only way to totally eliminate the idiots from crossing gates is to build under/overpasses (although that wont stop pedestrians from being stupid). Of course that costs $$$. I agree that railroads should notify insurance companies of drivers who run through crossings...I agree that the best way to a person's brain is through is wallet.


A quick [#offtopic] question. What are the license points that were talked about earlier?

[bobwilcox]

Rail crossing accidents are one of those things that need to go to zero failure. However, don't loose site of the good news. In the last quarter century yearly rail ton miles have increased 78% while annual rail crossing incidents have gone down 72%. Something is being done right!

[Anonymous]

The answer to this question in my opinion is simple...[#dots]...LESS STUPID PEOPLE

[railfan619]

I got an Idea now I know at some crossings they got two sets of gates on each side that.Block the whole road in fact one of them is here in milwaukee at 64th and mill Rd there are two gates blocking the southbound traffic and two going northbound to.Or I also think what if they put in gates that when the gates come down the gate extends all of the way across the street and locks in on the other side and it is made.Of steel and it would stay in place until the train is gone and even then it would not move for another 2or 3 minutes after words.

[TrainFreak409]

1) Cameras should be installed at grade crossings. Those that do not abide to the law will have a ticket mailed to their home. (That system works, I don't know how many my father has gotten in the mail.[V] Might not stop them, but it does get the ticket to where it needs to go.)

2) Four quadrant gates, or better yet, some system that you can't run your car through, like some people sma***hrough the crossing arms.

3) More education on the subject. TV commercials, Internet ads, and so on in the media. Schools could also do some instruction with it. Teach kids while their young the dangers of grade crossings, and it is more likely to stick.

[Wdlgln005]

I'd start with 4 quadrant gates. then add a rumble strip for cars going the wrong way. THe kind you see at car rental lots, where you can loose your tire. Anything to prevent drivers from going around the gates.

Fines would be much higher, similar to a DUI. This is no parking ticket. Put Operation Lifesaver in the traffic school. Put questions on the driver's test. You must get 90% correct to pass. I'd require the police to publish data on how many grade crossing accidents occur in their It would do more for Homeland Security than all the dogs they want to put at the train stations! Make Public Safety the #1 priority for local & state govmn'ts.

For the lawsuits, have a way to do reverse ones. If you lose, the RR may sue you for court costs. At least force the lawyers to have SOME basis to make a claim. You could also work to limit damages to those actually incurred.

Finally, the best thing will be to reduce the number of grade crossings! Apply more funds to the DOT bureau in charge of this.

[Sterling1]

1. Fine them + jail time
2. Rate it a felony
3. Some cameras would be nice

If you decided to run thru the crossing and got your vehicle destroyed but survived, have very large fine mailed to house. If show up w/ lawyer, add jail time. You don't deserve a lawyer, driving is privilege, not a right (don't see "driving" in the Bill of Rights).

[Train Guy 3]

Operation Lifesaver should just change their slogan to Don't Look, Don't Listen, DIE!

[Anonymous]

morning, by bloomington ill , amtrak had a chain link type fence that would drop down a few feet in front of tracks at crossing to prevent cars from driving through,around. was said it could stop a loaded semi at 20 mph.

[Big_Boy_4005]

You can't legislate stupidity out of the population. You can't even educate stupidity out of the population. This isn't a matter of what should be done, it's a matter of what can be done.

Given the money available, everything that can be done is being done. Throwing more money at the problem is a futile gesture.

Until there are no more grade crossings, fatalities are going to be a fact of life. Saying no more grade crossings is the same as saying no more trains.

Let's just let Darwin do his job.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3

Operation Lifesaver should just change their slogan to Don't Look, Don't Listen, DIE!

Maybe we should make it:

Darwin Says, "Don't Look, Don't Listen, DIE ! "

[SID6FIVE]

a partial solution would be to narrow the road at the crossing,with "appropriate" signs...four lanes necked down to two,or maybe two lanes squeezed to one and a half...idea being that people would hafta look...otherwise,around here several crossings (with gates) have permanently installed cones separating the lanes heading opposite directions (these are in "no whistle" zones)...how about just regular traffic lights instead of or in addition to the normal crossing lights...just a few ideas to ponder...

[SID6FIVE]

see...I have this silly idea that while ya can't legislate away stupidity it should be possible to design things to work with (or in spite of) it...

[Anonymous]

i think nothing should be done. anytime i have ever hit anybody at a crossing at grade i myself consider it natural selection. if anyone is stupid enough to try to beat a train they do not deserve to live

[Anonymous]

On the CP line that goes through my town, all trains have been restricted to 10mph because of the condition of the track for well over a year. As we speak, CP is replacing the track on this line, which will enable trains to travel at much greater speeds. However, once the work is complete, trains will only travel at 30mph. This is because people have become so acustomed to the trains traveling very slowly and are used going through crossings with plenty of time to spare before the train gets there. If there was a really dramatic speed increase, people might underestimate the speed of the train and, well, we all know what the results could be. To avoid this, they are gradually increasing the speed limit. Are there any laws or regulations that CP is following or are they just doing this on their own free will? Is this a common policy in situations like this?

[Anonymous]

it depends what country you live in. in the us the railroad only has to answer to the feds. states or towns cannot tell railroads what their speed limit can be. if the normal track speed is 30 through your town it could be because of track conditions such as curves, interlocking and so fourth. towns in the us still try to regulate the speed of trains. this being said it is up to the railroad weather or not to follow the speed limit that the city puts into place.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sask_Tinplater

On the CP line that goes through my town, all trains have been restricted to 10mph because of the condition of the track for well over a year. As we speak, CP is replacing the track on this line, which will enable trains to travel at much greater speeds. However, once the work is complete, trains will only travel at 30mph. This is because people have become so acustomed to the trains traveling very slowly and are used going through crossings with plenty of time to spare before the train gets there. If there was a really dramatic speed increase, people might underestimate the speed of the train and, well, we all know what the results could be. To avoid this, they are gradually increasing the speed limit. Are there any laws or regulations that CP is following or are they just doing this on their own free will? Is this a common policy in situations like this?

If the crossings are "gated" the speed of the trains wouldn't make any difference. If not a graduated speed increase sounds like a good idea. [;)]

[Junctionfan]

I still say fine them in the 10s to 100 thousand dollars or equal to that in jail time. I think it will be a successful deterent.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I still say fine them in the 10s to 100 thousand dollars or equal to that in jail time. I think it will be a successful deterent.

If you fine them that much, they will probably wi***he train had hit and killed them. There is no way to use financial penalties to solve this problem.

Jail time is also counter productive for this offense, and jails don't the space to hold these people.

A punishment that fits the crime would be 100 hours of community service, of which at least 50 hours would have to be spent working with Operation Lifesaver.

What would be really interesting would be making them spend some of their time sitting at the location where they were caught, trying to catch other offenders. Rain or shine of course. Free policing.

Kind of like that old shampoo comercial: you tell 2 friends, and they tell 2 friend, and so on, and so on, and so on. Eventually, the word gets out, and it's a lesson that won't be forgotten.

[tree68]

Several comments have been made to the effect of "unless they die," suggesting that there is no one to blame if the driver doesn't survive the crash. Hitting them in the pocketbook has also been mentioned. Perhaps we need to find (or start using) a way to put claims against estates. I know it could be cruel, taking away what little a family has left after losing their breadwinner, but it extends the reach of the financial impact such that now the wife (or husband) now has reason to do some real nagging.

All of the suggestions are excellent. As I started reading the thread, most of the ideas I formed for my potential reply appeared. Education is still a major factor. Dollars will always be an issue.

However, as many have said, there is no way to combat "Sure, I've got plenty of time to get across..."

[oltmannd]

I still maintain you can't "fine" the stupidity or absent mindedness out of people!

If the idea is prevention, and not punishment or "justice", then fines and cameras and suing peoples estates won't work.

Education and reducing risk are the only way.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

I still maintain you can't "fine" the stupidity or absent mindedness out of people!

If the idea is prevention, and not punishment or "justice", then fines and cameras and suing peoples estates won't work.

Education and reducing risk are the only way.

Very true.

However, as with raising children, you can try to show them the right way, but if they consider wandering, then the surety of punishment (not just the threat of punishment) can be a powerful motivator to stay on the straight and narrow. I rarely spanked my kids, but they've told me that the fear of incurring my displeasure shaped their behavior on numerous occasions.

Part of the education process is the very public punishment of offenders at all levels. When others see people paying large fines, losing driving priviledges (very important for some jobs) or losing significant portions of estates, they may think twice before turning the wheel to steer around the gates. Combined with various methods of enforcement (cameras, having the RR notify the cops when a train is due through a problem crossing, previous violators doing community service), this could be quite effective.

On the other hand, some kids never quite figure out that they can avoid the punishment by avoiding the behavior that brings it on.

[Anonymous]

I just read the last two replies to this thread.

Both of the last two have some good ideas.



Now how do you get these ideas to those who can put them into work?

[Anonymous]

One reason people try to cross in front of trains is because people can't tell if they will be blocked for a minute or an hour. In rural areas there is not much anyone can do but take it easy and slow down and watch the train. But level crossings in the middle of a city where trains stop and meat blocking crossings for over 30 mins is part of the problem.

A city that can't afford to build an underpath is a financialy poor town. The railway was usualy there first and helped build most towns, in these cases the town should foot most of the bill.

I recently saw a 3 train meat in a small town, I didn't mind but I can understand that some people would mind being blocked for 40 mins like that .

[samfp1943]

First of all, there is an old saying," You can train the ignorant, but stupid is forever." And it is proven everyday at grade crossings all across the country... Individuals who justify stupid acts[ going around active gates/warnings, and who race the train to a crossing, just for ***s and giggles, or seem to feel they are so important they cannot wait for the train]..And that is a difference between the public and railfans, the railfan goes to the crossing to check the train out for anything unusual..As a former employee who was with a medium sized truckline for some years ,and helped to get that company involved with Operation Lifesaver in Georgia/Georgia Motor Truck Association, and got some thirty two presenters { all involved as driver trainers and safetymen}. registered for Operation Lifesaver in 1999 through the CSX /Nashville. You can ask any engineer or other traincrewman if they are unaffected when someone is killed by the equipment they are operating, and they will tell you, the details stay with them and will not go only to be dimmed by time. We stressed at safety meetings with professional truck drivers the need to be observant before ,and during the crossing of railroads.. In 2000 the ATA and Operation Lifesaver produced a video shot in north Georgia to promote highway grade crossing safetry, that illustrated to the trucking industry the new federal penalties for violations of safety at grade crossings.. Still it was in 2000 that a school bus driver tried to beat a CSX freight over a rural crossing at the Tn/Ga line, resulting in a fatality, then a mother in a n Atlanta soutwestern suburb failed to stop for another CSX train, again fatalities...slowly stupid people remove themselves from the gene pool, unfortunately they risk the lives of strangers to do it...Look at AMTRAK'S record for this year dump trucks and log trucks all over the nation, and that does not count the auto accidents that are less spectacular and do not make the national news... The answer is in redesign of the automated grade crossing and ENFORCEMENT,ENFORCEMENT!! This is the very reason railroads are going to the expense of cameras on locomotives...to document the public ignorance of laws rules and regulations already on the books, but only spastically enforced in a reactive manner..

[banghead][banghead][2c]

[AlcoRS11Nut]

really.....all that needs to be done to solve a lot of the worlds issues is people just need to use there heads.