Whose Ready for $3.00 a Gallon Gas

[Anonymous]

If gas prices continue to rise, railroads, including Amtrak, commuter lines, light rail, monorails, etc., will become more competitive. Who Knows? Remember when gas prices were rising in the eighties and CSX tested C&O 614T to see if coal was cheaper...

[zapp]

I will apoligize to my Republican forum readers, but as was statedd deeper in the thread. We will not see a really noticable drop in any prices till there is a change in the Administration.

We will, however, begin to see everything from produce to paper increase in price as the high fuel prices are passed down to the general public.

It is my opinion that the current Administration would love to get the public so upset that we would agree to REALLY begin exploring the oil deposits in Alaska. A type of strong arm tactic,that may yet work if the prices remain high.

Most of our oil does not come from the middle east, but comes from South America (I believe it's about 62%,but I could be wrong). The rest is split up between Africa,Middle Eastern nations,etc...
Now that being said, most of their wood and defense products comes from American companies. It's my thinking that if these countries want to charge say $60-70 a barrel,that next helicopter,tank,or piece of plywood is going to really cost you. You'll be living in mud huts,HA! Oh,wait,you already are. (I just returned from Iraq!) Well ***...

[Modelcar]

Of course we must accept a certain amount of "losses" as we drive down the road....The cost of getting from point A to point B....

[Anonymous]

Over here in the UK the equivalent price for a US gallon of petrol (gas) is currently around $5.40 (guessing an exchange rate of $1.50 to a £)!!!

Could convert to sail power, but low bridges and all that tacking about could be a problem!

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by uzurpator

Diesel fuel energy content:

http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/fueltax-act143.html

QUOTE: The energy content of a gallon of gasoline ranges from about 109,000 to 125,000 Btu. The average is about 114,000 Btu. The energy content of diesel fuel is between about 128,000 and 130,000 Btu per gallon (lower heating value).

http://www.pure-energy.com/products/e-diesel.html

QUOTE: Energy Content: E-Diesel - 126,000 to 128,000 Btu/gal vs diesel ~ 135,000 Btu/gal

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/ageng/machine/ae1240w.htm

QUOTE:
Fuel Heat of Cetan Viscosity
Weight Combustion Number Centistokes

Lbs./gal. BTU/gal.

No. 2 diesel 7.05 140,000 48 3.0
100% Biodiesel (B100)
Methyl or ethyl ester 7.3 130,000 55 5.7
B20 mix (20/80) 7.1 138,000 50 3.3
Raw vegetable oil 7.5 130,000 35 to 45 40 to 50

Efficency -

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-238365.html

QUOTE: I'm with Sordid, I see anything from 23% to 27% loss, and use an average of 25% loss.

http://trucks.autoblog.com/entry/1234000383053544/

QUOTE: Traditional drivetrains pass something more, like 80-85% of the engine’s flywheel power if they’re properly matched to the vehicle, with approximately half of the loss coming from the transmission, and half from the rest of the system (propshafts, differentials, axle shafts, etc.)

A quick dive in the Google will tell you that typical drivetrain losses are about 15-30% - depending on a car in question.

mea culpa on the HHV - I was using a per pound figure so divide my answer by 7.043

I'm OK with a 15-20% loss from the flywheel back on a car with an automatic tranny. Viscous friction in the transmission and differential are not negligible. Loss from bearings and windage from rotating clutch and shafts is a very small part of the 20%.

[Anonymous]

Diesel fuel energy content:

http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/fueltax-act143.html

QUOTE: The energy content of a gallon of gasoline ranges from about 109,000 to 125,000 Btu. The average is about 114,000 Btu. The energy content of diesel fuel is between about 128,000 and 130,000 Btu per gallon (lower heating value).

http://www.pure-energy.com/products/e-diesel.html

QUOTE: Energy Content: E-Diesel - 126,000 to 128,000 Btu/gal vs diesel ~ 135,000 Btu/gal

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/ageng/machine/ae1240w.htm

QUOTE:
Fuel Heat of Cetan Viscosity
Weight Combustion Number Centistokes

Lbs./gal. BTU/gal.

No. 2 diesel 7.05 140,000 48 3.0
100% Biodiesel (B100)
Methyl or ethyl ester 7.3 130,000 55 5.7
B20 mix (20/80) 7.1 138,000 50 3.3
Raw vegetable oil 7.5 130,000 35 to 45 40 to 50

Efficency -

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-238365.html

QUOTE: I'm with Sordid, I see anything from 23% to 27% loss, and use an average of 25% loss.

http://trucks.autoblog.com/entry/1234000383053544/

QUOTE: Traditional drivetrains pass something more, like 80-85% of the engine’s flywheel power if they’re properly matched to the vehicle, with approximately half of the loss coming from the transmission, and half from the rest of the system (propshafts, differentials, axle shafts, etc.)

A quick dive in the Google will tell you that typical drivetrain losses are about 15-30% - depending on a car in question.

[oltmannd]

uz-

Headlights:

A gallon of diesel is 19,350 Btu/gal (HHV at 60 deg Farenheight), gasoline about 25% less.

You have to make ELECTRICITY from the fuel to run a headlight. You normally do that in a car by combusting the fuel in an Otto cycle engine - which are typically 15-20% effiecient - and driving a generator or alternator - that is typically 95% efficient. So, your yield is 15,000 x .2 x .95 = 2850 Btu/gal

As far as EROEI - I think that's where you're having your problem. The difference comes out as heat and has to be dissapated. By "grab", I meant "be able to touch without getting burnt". I can put my hand on the clutch housing of my car after driving 100 miles on the freeway with no problem. If it were only 70% effiecient, it would be disappating several HP of heat.

That truck that puts only 70% of it's engine BRAKE HP to the road:

Brake HP is the engine rating - usually without engine auxilaries like alternator, water pump, fuel pump, etc.

Most of the losses from the engine shaft to the road are from TIRES! They have a large contact patch with the road and are constantly deforming. It's why steel on steel is more fuel efficient.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by uzurpator

oltmannd

QUOTE: Fuel will NEVER be $20/gallon in our lifetime (adjusted for inflation). You could reform coal gas into gasoline for much less, but we don't even need to do that. Technology exists to make perfectly useful transportation fuel from coal for $2.50/gallon. It's just waiting for oil to reach a sustainable high price before someone invests in a long-lived plant to convert coal.

I'll bet within 2 years the price of crude is below $35 and gas is selling for $1.50 to $2.00/gallon. The current high price will lead to a mini-glut that not even OPEC will be able to stanch. It has happened both other times crude spiked. It'll happen now, too.

You really should make yourself familiar with the concept of EROEI.

You should really make yourself familiar with the boom and bust cycle, its bound to bust some time, it’s a bubble. Even many economists have predicted this.

[Train Guy 3]

Hey prices came back down to 2.99 here in southern VA.... I'm still paying tooo much.

[Modelcar]

........Still hanging in there at 2.99 here in Muncie. Fully expect for one to break away from the "norm" and reduce it but haven't seen any yet....

[eolafan]

Amazing, yesterday morning I drove up into the Milwaukee area and prices here in Chicago metro were about an average of $3.19 per gallon and about the same when I arrived in Milwaukee metro at about 8:30 a.m.. Well, after work I filled up in Hartford, WI at about 6:30 p.m. and the price had fallen to $3.07 per gallon. Amazing.

[Anonymous]

oltmannd

1. Drivetrain efficency:

Please - get a data for a dyno for a truck. 400 hp engine usually is about 250-270 hp on the road.

Friction clutch - its efficency is in the area i showed - I could show you data for it (from my engineering books), but I have it in polish, so obviously it has very little use for you. Actually - for friction clutch efficency drops as torque goes up.

Shaft - shafts are tricky - their efficency depends on their length (the longer, the lossier) and diameter (the bigger diameter, the more efficent). In practice you aim for 97-99% efficiency when designing it.

QUOTE: If the clutch, shaft and suspension were eating as much HP as you suggest, you wouldn't be able to grab the universal jt. or shock absorber with your bare hand - which you can.

Huh? By grab i understand "deform" (ie - pretend to see how they work). You see - there is a difference between playing with something, and designing something for 100 or more hp and one God knows how much torque.

2. Headlights.

QUOTE: 60Wx 3.413 Btu/hr/W x 1gal/15000Btu x 1/.20 engine eff. x 1/.95 alt eff. = .07 gallons/hr

The only problem I see here is the fact that a gallon of diesel is about 130000 to 140000 btu. But apart from that...

A gallon of diesel = 151 MJ
400 watts = 1,45 MJ/hr

151*0,35 = 52,85 MJ

52,85/1,45 = 117 hr/gal = 0,0085 gal/hr

QUOTE: Way more casualties and injuries than on the highway - and they are wearing full harnesses and helmet and not running with 3 ton SUVs and UPS delivery trucks!

Most formula 1 crashes are at less than 100 mph. They may run speeds up way past 100 mph, but rarely do they hit anything hard directly at those speeds. When they do, they are toast. Just look at what happens to those larger (and safer) Indy cars at Indy.

They do 100mph average speeds, oftem more. So obviously most crashes are at 100+ mph

QUOTE: Fuel will NEVER be $20/gallon in our lifetime (adjusted for inflation). You could reform coal gas into gasoline for much less, but we don't even need to do that. Technology exists to make perfectly useful transportation fuel from coal for $2.50/gallon. It's just waiting for oil to reach a sustainable high price before someone invests in a long-lived plant to convert coal.

I'll bet within 2 years the price of crude is below $35 and gas is selling for $1.50 to $2.00/gallon. The current high price will lead to a mini-glut that not even OPEC will be able to stanch. It has happened both other times crude spiked. It'll happen now, too.

You really should make yourself familiar with the concept of EROEI.

[oltmannd]

Originally posted by uzurpator

Say that when fuel will be at 20$ @ gallon

Fuel will NEVER be $20/gallon in our lifetime (adjusted for inflation). You could reform coal gas into gasoline for much less, but we don't even need to do that. Technology exists to make perfectly useful transportation fuel from coal for $2.50/gallon. It's just waiting for oil to reach a sustainable high price before someone invests in a long-lived plant to convert coal.

I'll bet within 2 years the price of crude is below $35 and gas is selling for $1.50 to $2.00/gallon. The current high price will lead to a mini-glut that not even OPEC will be able to stanch. It has happened both other times crude spiked. It'll happen now, too.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) 

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