Railroaders ideas to improve crossing safety

[edblysard]

Hi gdc,
Have you seen the anber lights mentioned in tims post?? I know I seem to notice the revolving hi intensity beacon light we have on the roof of our locomotives from a great distance, its white, almost the same as whats on police and emergency vehicles. Althought up close it may be too intense, a toned down version?
Ed

[Anonymous]

Statistics show the most effective crossing warning devices are cantilevered flashing lights combined with gates. If and when quad gates become more widely in use, they will probably usurp the cantilevers.
Have a safe day gdc

[Anonymous]

Yet again I get attacked? Just what is a kid to do. Mike we are talking up ways to improve safety and you come in here to aruge? Either assist or dont say anything. It would save us all a huge hassle of being distacted of the real issues at hand!
Hey Ed, Is it just me or do the bells on some RR X-ings seem to be quieter then they where 5 years ago? Two more ideas would be repace the flashing red lights with red strobe lights. Also there has to be away to use more of those air horns like they do in N. Illinois.
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Your attitude stinks, but on a positive note your general manager deserves a pat on the back. As far as the local government, well thats another story. Just remember when the election comes up. Sounds though that they redeemed themselves somewhat. Did I ever call you anything specific? As I recall I said that it is much higher than a blue collar problem. Time to start hounding Congress about corporate responsibility.
Mike

[Anonymous]

Tests fail; rail crossings to work without safety net
Chicago Tribune; Chicago, Ill.; Nov 11, 2001; Nicole Ziegler Dizon, Associated Press;

[Anonymous]

Dear Ed,
Lets do it!!! Its time for some public exposure to this, you are right on the money. Not enough people are aware of the dangers. Does anyone here know Oprah or Phil? Please give them a call and tell them about this.
Mike

[Anonymous]

If there was a netcatcher system, someone would end up stealing the net for smelt fishing in Lake Michigain:). Sorry I have not heard a peep from anyone/thing. I guess we all are perfect drivers and its not a problem up here! Yea and the Brewers will win the world series!!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[edblysard]

Hi guys,
seems we gathered a few good ideas here. So where do we go now? I like the Oprah and Dr Phil thing, due in part to the moms who would be watching. And the center barricade and the hard barricade at the sides or edges makes a lot of sense, along with the hanging rods from the gates to prevent drive unders. On the Oprah/ Phil thing, is there any footage of a grade crossing accident from the cab that you guys know of? I bet if someone could get it on the Oprah show, with a railroader explaining whats going on, a lot of moms would see, and understand. And you know how moms are....also, we need someone to find a list of state representatives, congressmen, senators, those who we could post their e-mail address so that anyone who wanted to could write. Now I know that they dont read their e-mail, one of their aids do, but if they got enough of it, the aids would bring it to their attention. And those of us who live near or know of a crossing that you think needs improvement, find out what representatives district it is in, and contact him/her. Explain what the problem is, and ask for their help. Post what their reply is, and tell them your going to do so. Public opinion is a powerful tool, if used repeatedly. And contrary to a certain persons belife that operation lifesaver is a fraud, contact the nearest chapter, or your local railroad, and see if you cant get them to do a demo at your local highschool, its about time for the drivers ed classes to begin. If we can get the attention of only one kid, well, thats one less we have to worry about. Keep sending ideas, so far, all of these are really good...
Ed

[Anonymous]

Icemanmike, by chance did you read something in the paper up there about the netcatcher crossing system? ( I live in Buffallo Grove Ill. I heard they were still trying to make it work in Wis.) Also most of those improvments up there came about because several rail union's complained about the bad crossing's to several local official's.

[Anonymous]

You guys are right as usual!! I noticed in northern Illinois some of the X-ings acualy have an amber flashing 'X'. I dont know if is for the RR or us dumb motorist, but I do know it caught my attention. Most of the crosings in that area is realy "overdone" to get the point across..(example)..wabit tracks Duh TRAIN tracks. Another idea is to use a reflective saftey yellow painted on ALL X-ings going back to the "how the....did you not see this" theme. Remember SSS Sweet Simple Stupid!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Oh man. I know, and what seems all the worse is that basically the city, for putting in the road, "forced" the company into an improvement, i.e. created a situation that needed a resolution. It reminds me of when Portland regraded the road in front of my grandparent's house many many many years ago. By taking down the grade, they stranded the garage, and the car in it, ten plus feet above the new road! Typical thinking, alas.

Locally my city, (not Portland, but a burb to the SW,) wants to pu***hrough two new roads accross the railroad tracks, even as those tracks are expected to see a four fold increase in traffic over the next 5 years. They don't see why ODOT Rail and the railroad oppose their idea, and they think that an overpass is just foolish over-reaction.

Cameras to catch gate crashers? Hmm... a not unappealing idea....

~Alexander
Not an employee, relative, or stockholder. (Not that those would make a difference.)

[edblysard]

Hey Alexander,
A funny thing happened to me today, and durn it, just after I told everybody I wouldnt respond to that guy again. It seems a crossing, just at the south end of our receiving tracks, was newley desiginated by the local school district as the crossing the school buses have to use to serve a small neighborhood tucked away between two major roads. Because, and get this, its safer than using the crossings at the major intersections, because of the gate crashers running around the buses to beat the trains...this crossing has never had and type of protection device, ever, because it was on PTRA property, and only lead to a access road behind our tracks. Three years ago, the city connected a side street to it, but refused to put a protection device in, as the road "saw little if any traffic except railroad personel". And of coures, everyone who lived in this small neighborhood has used this crossing ever since. So we got in the habit of dragging past the crossing, and allowing the people in the neighborhood to get by when we drag a switch cut out. We even flag the crossing, and will wait till they get by before shoving back to the yard. That idea came from our callous, arrogant and uncaring General Manager. Well, surprise, after two years or so, the school district decided the un-protected crossing was safer than the one with the gates and bells, not because of trains, but because of the drivers. After we heard of this, us uncaring brutes talked to the city ,our member lines, and the school district. So, at our expense, with the city planners blessing, lo and behold, as of today, this crossing has a brand spanking new double arm gate on both sides of the track, with cameras to record gate crashers, lights, bells and and a new concrete crossing pad and approach at track head height, along with several new warning signs on both approaches to the crossing. You wont belive how much I want to tell that guy to park it where the sun dont shine.
What a uncaring, ingnorant bunch we are.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hey Ed, great idea. He has the right to freedom of speech, but he doesn't have the right to be heard or listened to. Kudos.

As for what to do now? Getting stop signs plunked into unprotected crossings could probably be done fairly cheaply. In my area the corssings are almost 100% gated, and there it's an issue of violators. In that case I think it's an issue of enforcement from the police. I'd usggest a letter pointed towards the city mananger, or in rural areas, to the Sheriff's office, asking what the law is regarding crossings, i.e. is it a ticektable offense? If it is *not*, a pu***o make it one would not be difficult. (Have you ever heard of a local government turning down an idea for another $500 ticket?)

Getting middle lane barriers built is cheap too. In Oregon, it's the law if the road is a three laner. To get them installed, target roads which are busier, and talk to the City Engineer, or to the Land Use & Transportation driector (or equivilant) in your local county.

Also, try contacting the state DOT and asking for the Rail Division. You can probably get a contact there and ask what programs your state has for grade crossing improvements. They are usually a very friendly lot.

It's going to be easier to get improvements made to a road if it has high traffic, or if it is near a school, BTW.

Best,

Alexander Craghead
Portland, Oregon, USA

[Anonymous]

Here in Illinios they expiremented with a crash net. If censor's detected a car heading towards the tracks it would drop a net to try to stop the vehical. They could not get the net to drop fast enough so they canceled it. They spent a lot of money trying to get it to work. A taxpayer group got a little angry but when they found out that most of the funding was coming from the railroads they quited down. (The source of this was a article in the Chicago Tribune can not remember the date. It was in the transportation Sunday section). Did anyone else from Chicago recall that article?
TIM A

[cabforward]

thanx to ed for inviting me to this site.. and compliments to him for the post he recommended to me.

**maybe new technology is the way to cope with "idiots du jour" (today's idiots), but i cant think of a better way to reduce crossing-violations than to have double gates at locations which appear to need them (no. of trains, speed, mult. tracks, etc.). hard barriers would be erected at the pedestrian end of the gates to prevent driving-around them. cameras would photograph violators caught-in-the-act. where cameras cant be used to prosecute a violator of the law, pictures could be used by the r.r. to create a database where the image of the vehicle can be stored and recalled later to compare when it appears the same vehicle has repeated the violation. a record of repeat violations by the same vehicle might persuade lawmakers to authorize law enforcement to prosecute violators.

it used to be safety measures were required to protect people against dangerous machinery. it probably started with the first mill that ground wheat next to a river. now, it has become a nightmare as business must protect people against their own stupidity: spilling hot coffee, eating fattening food, smoking.

europe has a very good gate warning system. i was there '61-'64. gates are lowered which have a rigid underhanging grillwork which prevents anything from passing underneath. many of these locations are manned by one person who physically lowers the gates. how their govt. can afford that is beyond me. because many of the gate structures are large and to conserve space, gates may swing onto the path of the roadbed when no trains are near. when a train approaches, the gate swings 90 degrees to block highway traffic on both sides. this is also a manned operation.

[Anonymous]

Your company has not done all it can do. With the help and support of law inforcement that side can be supported as well. It is a joint effort

[Anonymous]

Thats about what I would expect from this magazine. Its so easy to just say stop even though the law is contrary to that belief. I think a stop sign at every crossing is a great idea. So you don't think bad judgements can be made by drivers who come to a crossing the can be improved and if improved would make these bad judgements a little more forgiving? Give me a break, you must be a shareholder. $1500 of right of way clearing on 70ft. of there property could of prevented this bad judgement. There is no excuse for that.
Mike

[Anonymous]

Just be sure not to take your Koran with you.

[wabash1]

I was only trying to make the guy like ed was to state the facts. As far as i am concerned he gave me his side of the story and i did reply to it. Now for the good news or the news he wanted but i wouldnt give. here on the ns are super 5 years ago wanted not only crossing with apparent traffic increase he wonted places in which he himself with ol could go and teach the maening of stop look and listen. if truck traffic increased they wanted to know so they could go out and talk to drivers and tell them about the speeds and the dangers in a friendly way. believe me it helped. but there still is more to teach. we as employees and the railroads have done all we can do, now its time for the law inforcment to do thier job.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ed!! We can finaly get pass this speedbump and hit the problem head on ( NO PUN INTENDED!!). Ive only seen OLS booths at the train shows here in Wisconsin. Not at the race track, not at the car shows, or any mall ....train shows.

Call me stupid, but most Railfans/Employees already understand to respect these giant beast. Its the family of 4 who are in a ru***o see Grandma, Or the kid showing off just how cool his pimp ride is. These are the people that need to be reached. Law enforcement, OLS, AND the local RR's need to get this point across at places that THESE people will be. Im not shure just how we got so PO'd over a few remarks, but all nonsense aside how can you sell common sense? I did not see it at the hobby store, or the car part store. Why because YOU must learn this lesson.

Recently I heard that a railfan was hit and killed here in Milwaukee in the "Hiawatha Corridor". Its no suprise to see Amtrak trains reach 80 mph here...So why was he on the tracks? Again and it realy hurts to say it COMMON SENSE!! The railroad's post NO TRESSPASSING signs to PROTECT us..from ourselfs.

Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[edblysard]

Hi again gdc,
Just read both Paul and Tom's post in regards to our somewhat myopic contributer. As much as I love the concept of free speech, and as much as I like a good argument, I agree with both of them, in that a lot of really goood and fine railroaders and fans have allowed this guy to get under our skin badly enought that we are letting out emotions overide our common courtsey, and our common sense. Because I dislike forced censorship in any form, I would like to proprose a even simpler solution. Lets all agree to not respond to him any more. As long as we do, we allow him to manipulate our course of discussion, and he keeps dragging us back into his arena. He has referred to his employment with a goverment agency, but refuses to state which one. Sounds sorta scarry huh? FRA?, FBI? Treasury? Dog catcher? Get real, I worked for The Attorney General, State of Texas for years. If he hasnt done anything against his agencies policy, or broken any state or federal laws, he should be proud to inform us of who he is and where he works. I havent hidden who I am, or what state agency I worked for, by the way, I was a child support officer, special locate division, my job was to hunt down absent parents, moms and dads both, folks, and I am darn proud of it! I have repeatedly asked him for details, which he fails to provide, or just ingnores. It would appear he has no intent of entering into a reasoned conversation with us, the fans and workers who love trains, railroads, and the way cresote smells on a summer day. His entire thread is full of misquotes, half facts, and most disturbing, thinley veiled insults to us, to engineers in paticular, and, by default, all railroaders in general. He has accused all of us, through our assocation with railroading of negligent homicide. After several well thought out responses from not only myself, yourself, j, and others, and several hints from the people who have provided both him and us with this forum, his retoric has, at least from my point of view, run itself out. So, in that light, I think I will cease to respond to him, and instead concentrate on the issue of this post, gathering ideas from fans, and railroaders, as to what we feel can be done to reduce crossing accidents. Any trainmasters, yardmasters, line supers out there who may have a line into who manages your railroads advertising market? Think they would help in a local educational ad? How about a fund pool to buy a national spot in the 5:30 news programs?
Lets talk it up, not down to this guys level anymore.
And my thanks to the fine gentlemen, youeself in paticular, who have already provided great ideas, and shared your vast range of experience, along with providing points of intrest from their own experiences. You listening Tim A? Keep on asking, this is for you guys too!
Stay Frosty,,,
Ed

[edblysard]

You know, I almost think you either cant comprehend, or just dont bother with facts. All of my railroad falls within "yard limits" and our max speed is 20mph. When that little girl got killed, my engineer had pluged the train brakes, put it in emergency application, and the event recorder show 9.25 mph impact. But when two switch locomotives, each weighing 254000 lbs each, and 50 loaded plastic hoppers hit something at 9.25 mph....
So before you twist what I said into something else, you might want to read all the information posted. And you still havent answered who, what when or where. Afraid of getting sued yourself, kinda sucks dosnt it!
Ed

[edblysard]

Stay frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

That it is, more so when they have no choice in whats happening to them, and the one person they trust and belive the most lets them down.
So who do we speak to about these ideas? Seems like quite a few good ones have come to light, so where do we go from here?
Stay frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Stay cool....and dont let him get to you...
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed, what does "stay frosty" mean? gdc

[Anonymous]

Ed, Thanks for opening this post. There are so many fine, constructive ideas expressed here, it's hard to come up with another one. What about AAR sponsorship of prime time OL ads, say how about one during Super Bowl 2 minute warnings or late half timeouts. Maybe Oprah or Dr. Phil could speak to their fans as well. Another sore spot with me are commercials using trains and hot cars or batteries that start all the time allowing a close escape. We would call that a near miss. Most railroads now prescreen such ads, but I've seen some that are absolutely horrible.
But what I really want to opine here is the recognition of the other victims of crossing accidents...the train crews and especially the engineers. You never forget the incidents. You learn to live with them and realize that there was nothing more that you or anyone else could have done. I am loathe to start war stories, but the look on a person's face in the last second of their life is poignant. gdc

[edblysard]

I dont care what color mine turns out, as long as it stays where it is....the wife say Im scruffy and shaggy looking, Yeaaahhh baby...
Stay frosty, and thanks for pointing out the speed thing. I kinda took offense at his stating engineers "speed". I wonder if he knows about the event recorder?
Ed

[edblysard]

Tim, re read my post, not only do I want to hear from you, but I value your ideas and suggestions. Just to let you know, I flat forgot about lane dividers, but you didnt, and they do work. This site is designed for people just like you, who want to learn more about railroading. So what did you think about a grass roots pu***o make dividers and double gates mandatory and busy crossings? Do you have any idea how to start such a thing? I havent the foggest idea...
Keep asking and suggesting things, yo have a sharp mind, and ask good questions...
Ed

[Anonymous]

I am glad that you liked what you read there. Let me point out some key words there. STATE AND LOCALE OFFICIALS. Operation Lifesaver is a success in Illinios because it has support of State and Locale officials. If it is not working in your state or area it is because it is not getting the support it needs. So please, Don't blame Operation Lifesaver, Don't blame the Capitalistic Corporate Monsters, Don't blame the railroad workers. Blame who is really responsible for the safty of these railroad crossings. Your State and Locale Officials. For without there support Operation Lifesaver will not work. Good day Sir.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT