Railroaders ideas to improve crossing safety

[wabash1]

Texas..........lol

[wabash1]

Not being able to read your mind or you read mine. (and other post also) you didnt relize i was talking about the gate crashers. I with out hesitation would big hole my train if i saw a child walking on the rails or scared to move couse of fear and could not get out of the way. or someone stuck on the rails and couldnt get off even if ( and this has happened) 2 cars trying to beat me at a crossing have a accedent in my path i will big hole the train and try and stop. But if you are obviously playing checken with me( this does happen) or trying to beat me (most get away with this) then i wont even reach for the brakes. i hope this clears things up.

The problem with writing is you cant tell the emotions or the true meaning of the authors words or statement it is your mind set that makes it what you want it to be.

[edblysard]

Sadly, society seems to accept such behavior, and the judicial system seems to reinforce such behavior by allowing convicted drunk drivers behind the wheel again. We view the use of a automobile as a right, not the privilege it really is. But, just like I have suggested with rr crossings, if you dont like how the court deals with them, or dont think the laws are correct, then write your elected officals. Get your friends to write them too. Only if we, the private citizen raise our concerns repeatedly to those we elect, key word there, elect, will things change. If you dont like the grade crossing in your neighborhood, write whoever has jurisdiction over it, and complain, complain loud and long, write a letter on your computer and save it, then send one each week until the person gets tired of hearing from you and does something. Ther has been lots of really great ideas brought up here, dont let them be nothing more than notes on a screen, or idle chat. Write that letter, make a phone call, get your wife, your friends, anyone you can think of to get involved. As long as all we do is complain, without taking any action, no matter how small, then nothing will change.
You all stay frosty,
Ed

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Since drunk drivers came up,I believe that should be the main concern.Drunk Drivers kill more people then the railroads do in a years time and most often then not these murders of the highways goes scott free after paying a small fine or spend very few days in jail.They get out get drunk drive their car/truck/suv and sooner or later they kill again..

[Anonymous]

Seems to me the nation wide consensus is that motorists are idiots or their are some very serious issues with rr crossings everywhere except where I live (TN)

[Anonymous]

You do have a very valid point in that I haven't seen it through the front window of a loco. And I don't think that you can steer out of the way or control a driver. And I certainly don't bash engineers, I have the highest respects for the ones I know. It seemed to me that you were saying you would continue even IF you could prevent something, that is where I would apply my opinion. Not in a situation where you were 2 feet from a vehicle or nothing COULD be done. In 100% of the collsions ( I don't believe in accidents) I have responded to involving a train, it was the motorists fault; nothing could have been done by the engineer to prevent it. Finally, I wasn't judging you or calling you names. To revise my statement for clarity, would you or would you not agree, that it would take a very callused heart to proceed with an action that is likely to cause serious injury or death, to the person that is at fault to begin with, even if that action could have been stopped and prevented the entire situation?

[Anonymous]

This is another great and simple soultion to a common problem. That is IF people stop for the red light. At least once a month I almost get clobered by morons FLYING thru red lights in West Allis Wi. Now tell a cop to patrol all the intercetions or rr X-ings....Good luck! At least stop lights work for most of us (the ones with common sense).
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[corwinda]

I know of an interesting crossing setup in Springfield Oregon. A crossing (On the spur to a major paper plant) has normal crossing gates, and the road has an intersection with a traffic light a hundred feet or so on either side of the crosing. At least from the south (I haven't seen the north side when a train is on the crossing) the traffic light for through traffic stays red as long as the gates are down.

[edblysard]

Great idea, sounds like common sense.
Ed

[edblysard]

Where did you buy thoses boots, and do they have another pair in the same kind if box?
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed and gdc

in regards to the aboved mentioned statements about the coffee and other things. I have come to a conclusion. I just bought a pair of boots and they made my feet hurt. there was no warning in the box that said that until these are broke in that there will be no dicomfort to my feet. I am now looking for a lawyer to take my case for profit against the manufacture of these boots for making my feet hurt and costing me sleep pain and anguish not to mention a day off from work, the possible blisters i might get if i continue to wear them. 1.5 mil should be enough.

[wabash1]

and in your opinion you might be right but if you ever get a chance to ever ride up front and see what is going on well then you change your attitude. in your car how many times do you stop when you see someone about to pull out in front of you or does pull out in front of you. ill answer that for you .... never you raise your foot off the gas. and cover the brake. but you didnt stop. do that next time full stops. couse when you get the air on a train that is what will happen a full stop at every crossing. I have not been to train wrecks we dont run trains into each other on our division. but i have been to car vs train and truck vs train and tresspasser vs train. first hand. and after 20 years in transportation no accident is pretty. You insist on thinking as most people do that we have control of they way people are going to act at crossings and that we can stop or steer out of your way, or even get your mode of transportation out of the path of us. in reality we cant. that is why they call them acidents couse someone made a mistake ( the person trying to beat the train) i have never heard of anyone going out and having a on perpose. Now to answer your first statement, yes i have had family mebers killed by drunk drivers. Did i try to shut the breweries down did i have the bars closed down nation wide did i sue all the places that sell this product. No. And it is not the best part of my day when we hit someone at a crossing either. It sucks to be truthful. To me all the people that bash us railroaders are like the people who bash cops who haft to make that life or death choice and shoot someone. the man they are chasing has 7 felonies has a gun and points it at a cop they shoot and kill him. Now the community is outraged couse someone got killed the guys mom is on tv saying " he was a good kid never did anything wrong and the police shoot him, he was running couse he was scared" i be scared to if i was going to jail for killing the clerk at the gas station after robbing him and about to go to prison. Well you judged me and even called me names but before you judge me or anyone else take a ride your eyes will be opened for you.

[MP57313]

I am not with OLS, but a former colleague does work with them in Southern California. He had been displaying a poster will a grouping of snapshots showing risky behavior (man acarrying a bike over a stopped train at a crossing) and fatal results (smashed car and a body covered by a sheet), and several more on the same subject.

He is now forbidden from showing that poster because it could be too disturbing if one of the victim's family members or friends happened to see the pictures.

As for preventing accidents...four quadrant gates could help, but just in the past week a bicyclist rode around these in South L.A. and has hit and seriously injured.

As for railfans getting killed on the right of way...that is rare, but sometimes the unexpected happens. Years ago there was an article (in Trains) where a photographer in double-track territory had set up on one track, expecting the train to come on the other, and they "guessed wrong" because they didn't know the other track was temporarily closed for maintenence.

For changing behavior...good luck! But one thing I noticed in the Denver area, for some spur lines they use normal traffic lights instead of grade crossing signals and gates. Car drivers are more familiar with regular traffic lights so maybe people are more likely to stop for a red light than at a rail crossing.

[edblysard]

Point taken, subject closed.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed and everyone,
While it would amount to hearsay, this person could use things that are posted here to litigatory advantage, i.e. "This is wht railroaders are talking about". Or it could be used in an adverse public relations ploy. Everyone be careful, I believe this person is watching all these types of posts. He also doesn't mind being provacative or making pointed comments, absurd though they may be. Once again he seems to be using profanity. Ed, your comments to ignore this person, no matter what is said, are still valid.
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[edblysard]

Iceman, dude,
dont let this guy get to you, he dosnt live in the real world anyway. Bet you he is a paralegal for that ambulance chaser who's web site he keeps promoting. Weird, that lawyer thinks having Ralph Naders Green Party endorse him is a plus...Hey, you know what a paralegal is, dont you, someone too stupid, or too lazy to pass their states bar exam. They wanted to be lawyers, but just cant hack it. Everytime you respond to his assinine posts, you just offer him the attention he seeks.
He is one of those who feel that everyone else is responsible for his safty, except himself. I bet you if the woman who sued McDonalds hadn't won there, she would have sued the auto maker for not installing a sturdy enough cup holder to prevent her kids from knocking over that cup of unreasonably hot coffee. Dont know about you, but where I come from, cold coffee sucks. All the grown ups here expect coffee to be hot, and I know if I spill it on myself, it will burn me. I also know enough to make my kids behave in the car, and am smart enough to put things like hot coffee, sharp knives, and firearms somewhere where the little kids cant get to them. Notice this guy keeps using lawyers catch phrases like "unreasonably" hot? Thats lawyer speak for, "yes, we know coffee is suppost to be hot, we just want to sue you, thats our business, so the best we could come up with is "unreasonably" hot. So I guess if this coffee was a few degrees colder, there would have been no suit? How hot is "unreasonably" hot? 180*F? 230*F?
Is obvious that this person has adopted the mind set of most religous fanatics, in that hes right, and if you dont agree with him, your wrong and your evil. He gets uptight when someone calls him something he feels is insulting, but didnt he just call all of us railroaders murders? He acts all suprised that I would take offense to that. His actions show that, because he lacks information on both sides of a issue, and only wants to see his side anyway, the only recourse he has is to call you names, he lacks the skill, knowledge, or common sense to debate any issue intelligently, so he resorts to childlish name calling to get the attention he wants. Treat him the same way I treat my fifteen year old, when she acts like a twerp to get attention, ingnore him, it bugs the heck of people like them. As long as you respond to his twerpey, one sided, ill informed and inflammatory drivel, he has a forum to present his fanatical garbage in. If you ingnore him, maby he will go to another site, like Toys 'R' Us, where he really belongs, and pester them about unreasonably, and ultra dangerous toys.
Stay Froast Iceman...
Ed

[Anonymous]

On EVERY account I ever had with local rr it was just the opposite! The employees did not want to see myself or anyone else hurt...God forbid killed. Have you ever heard of the saying 'NOT ON MY SHIFT'? This is something I've heard in saftey rings and police deparments MANY times...Why because who wants to be the one who has to knock on your door and give your family the bad news, well..no one here thats for shure!
Lets not forget that most of us are railfans or work the rails. We all had our fair share of near misses and some (as sad as it is)even stared death straight in its face. No one my friend would do this type of thing intentionaly. If there is a dangerous X-ing in your area then contact your local government. If I had to deal with one I know I would, but there is none (localy) that has ever made me nervious enough to do so. It's up to the locals to make it the governments problem, because on man/woman cannot do so by themself! Again Im NOT pointing fingers but saftey is on all sides of the track. This is why OLS was made. Also I noticed that on www.oli.org that they have a list of officials to contact. That shows that there is a government attachment to this delemia. Did any one else put ols on there web pages? I did, will anyone click on the link...I dont know but aleast they have the option! Keep your bodys warm and your heads cool!!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee
If ya like check it out...
[e-mail]/tigger2brandi
Its not much but Im always looking for more links

[Anonymous]

Maybe some drunk driver will take the same attitude with you or your family sometime when your out on the road and waiver for a millisecond or walking down the sidewalk and stumble.
My grandfather was a train engineer back when men were really men, and he would have killed himself to avoid killing anyone else, in his train, in is car, on his tractor or at any other time. Even during WW2 he was a corpsman, preserving the most valuable asset we can ever possess.....life.
I have been to train wrecks where body parts were strewn to the extent that they weren't even all recoverable. I would hate to think that some of them could have been prevented by whatever means and weren't. It would take a real low life sob to have that attitude, regardless of which end it was on.

[Anonymous]

Had to throw in the McDonald tidbit because of the comments about the lawsuit. I thought the same until the complete story was told. Which is what corporate America does not want. Here is a portion of an email that I recieved:

Did I ever tell you what the first CSXT claims man said to me when I rang him... he told me; Mrs. O... we can kill as many as we want to.. that was a private crossing.

This I'm sure is not every railroaders attitude but seems to be a majority.
Mike

[edblysard]

Nor, really Tim, the surf board regulates the industry in that it rules on mergers, both in rail and air, sorta like the old ICC. It also rules on fair trade, ect. The FRA is mandated to deal with all issues of safty on railroads. It draws up rules and recommendations, and can issue citations and levee fines against both railroads as a company, the officers of railroads, and the operational employees, guys like me. The FRA requires things like a random, but mandatory drug testing program. Here at the Port, they require each of our officers to perform 100 safety test per month, in three catagories. Administration, raido rules, and operations. That means at least 3 times a month. I get tested on if I have my paperwork complete and correct, I use my radio correctly, with all the proper over and outs, job ID and such, and if I follow all the safety rules involved in operations. The FRA helps set guidlines for crossing devices also.
Thanks Tim, hope everyone remember what this post is about too!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ladies and Gentlmen, I am a bit confused, I thought the topic we were discussing was how to improve the safty of railway crossing's. Please I do not wi***o anger anyone, I would like very much to get back on that suject. Is there a Goverment department in charge of railroad safty? What, if any roll, does the Surface Transportation Board play in crossing safty?
TIM A

[wabash1]

Mike here is something you are not aware of and most if not all engineers operate this way. there is no way i will put my train in emergency til i hit you. i make no throttle aadjustments to change anything i keep running like you wasnt there. why you might ask? simple with all the close calls we have we be in emergency all the time so we keep on moving . like nothing was there. it was hard at first but now it is second nature.

[Anonymous]

McFacts abut the McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit

Everyone knows what you're talking about when you mention "the McDonald's lawsuit." Even though this case was decided in August of 1994, for many Americans it continues to represent the "problem" with our civil justice system.

The business community and insurance industry have done much to perpetuate this case. They don't want us to forget it. They know it helps them convince politicians that "tort reform" and other restrictions on juries is needed. And worse, they know it poisons the minds of citizens who sit on juries.

Unfortunately, not all the facts have been communicated - facts that put the case and the monetary award to the 81-year old plaintiff in a significantly different light.

According to the Wall Street journal, McDonald's callousness was the issue and even jurors who thought the case was just a tempest in a coffee pot were overwhelmed by the evidence against the Corporation.

The facts of the case, which caused a jury of six men and six women to find McDonald's coffee was unreasonably dangerous and had caused enough human misery and suffering that no one should be made to suffer exposure to such excessively hot coffee again, will shock and amaze you:

McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants.

McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation - and yet they never so much as consulted a burn expert regarding the issue.

McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.

McFact No. 4: The woman, an 81-year old former department store clerk who had never before filed suit against anyone, said she wouldn't have brought the lawsuit against McDonald's had the Corporation not dismissed her request for compensation for medical bills.

McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.

McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company. When it came to the punitive damages, the jury found that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious, or wanton conduct, and rendered a punitive damage award of 2.7 million dollars. (The equivalent of just two days of coffee sales, McDonalds Corporation generates revenues in excess of 1.3 million dollars daily from the sale of its coffee, selling 1 billion cups each year.)

McFact No. 7: On appeal, a judge lowered the award to $480,000, a fact not widely publicized in the media.

McFact No. 8: A report in Liability Week, September 29, 1997, indicated that Kathleen Gilliam, 73, suffered first degree burns when a cup of coffee spilled onto her lap. Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.

The most important message this case has for you, the consumer, is to be aware of the potential danger posed by your early morning pick-me-up. Take extra care to make sure children do not come into contact with scalding liquid, and always look to the facts before rendering your decision about any publicized case.

[Anonymous]

So the general concensus is that everyone is trying to beat a train. Pretty bold statement. Your right in part about personal responsibility, the railroad corporation being looked upon in the judicial system as a person takes absolutely no responsibility for any accident and the feds support this. Snow should fit in well at the Treasury:
CSX Executive’s Involvement in Questionable Corporate Practices Raises Serious Doubts About His Suitability for Cabinet Post

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Concerned about the prospect of a corporate executive involved in questionable business practices joining the Bush Cabinet, Public Citizen today filed records requests to obtain information about loans, stock sales, safety compliance and other matters involving John W. Snow, the Treasury Secretary nominee who for years headed CSX Corp.

The requests, filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), are an attempt to learn more about Snow’s policies as chairman and chief executive officer of CSX.

"As head of CSX, Mr. Snow apparently was involved in some of the same questionable practices that have come under scrutiny recently and even been outlawed by Congress," said Joan Claybrook, Public Citizen president. "We question whether a top corporate executive who abused his position by benefiting from insider deals will be a good public servant. We are filing this request so that before Congress votes on Mr. Snow, the public record can be clear and complete as to his ethical and safety performance as CEO of a major transportation company."

In the request to the SEC, filed under the Freedom of Information Act, Public Citizen seeks all records concerning loans from CSX to Snow and the forgiveness of those loans, sales of CSX stock by Snow, any SEC investigation into CSX matters, and all transactions between CSX and members of the company’s compensation committee. From the FRA, Public Citizen seeks all records concerning Snow’s role as a CSX executive, Snow’s involvement with the company’s lack of compliance with federal track safety standards, any enforcement actions against CSX since 1991, and Snow’s role in the negotiation and implementation of an April 2000 Safety Compliance Agreement between the company and the FRA, which came about after an FRA review of CSX tracks uncovered a number of safety problems.

Snow has been a beneficiary of many of the questionable corporate practices that came to light after the Enron scandal, according to news reports. CSX loaned Snow $24.5 million to purchase company stock valued at $32.3 million, but after the stock price dropped, the company forgave the loan. During his tenure, Snow received more than $50 million in compensation over 12 years even though profits fell and the stock didn’t do as well as the average U.S. company. Last year, he made $10.1 million in cash and stock grants and received stock options valued at $8 million. According to a Corporate Library survey, Snow is the third highest–paid chief executive among 37 transportation company CEOs.

Further, according to media reports, Snow sold 120,000 shares of CSX stock this year, less than a month before the company announced that its third-quarter outlook was not as rosy as it had first predicted. The stock price dropped, but Snow dumped the stock just in time to avoid losing approximately $750,000.

Additionally, Snow served on five other corporate boards, including NationsBank, where he helped set compensation for one of CSX’s outside directors.

"It would appear that Mr. Snow misused his position as CEO to gain benefits available to few others," Claybrook said. "How many CSX workers were able to obtain multimillion-dollar loans for stock purchases and have the loans forgiven?"

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ed
I'll take a look there

[Anonymous]

Hey Ed, hope all is going well down in TX. Did you know the company knew that the coffee was dangerously hot, yet in an effort to maximize 'profit' it was kept that hot. Did you know that as a result of this spilled coffee the person suffered thousands of dollars in medical bills. Did you know that they had hundreds of smaller incidents with people getting burnt and continued to keep it at that excessive temp. I didn't either. Its a perfect case of being single sided until you know the complete story. Please read this letter that follows. It is from someone who is also concerned about rail safety and wrote to the Senator for Texas.

The following is a letter sent to Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison

Greetings,

Still having deep roots in Texas , I write again. I continue to learn in my quest to become an effective rail safety advocate.

I know you have strong ties to the rail indsutry, and Operation Lifesaver. I wonder if you are aware of how slanted the message they present , really is? I hope not, and that you are willing to learn.

Operation Lifesaver gets their info from the railroads and FRA. FRA takes what the industry hands them. It is not a clear and full picture. I know that a grade rail crossings accident history , has to do with it's working it's way up a priority list for 'active protective devices'. When an accident does not show up on a crossing's accident history it's rather like a batter getting a free strike.

The crossing where my daughter was hit and killed, for even up to 4 years later; it's history showed NO accidents. There have been numerous accidents there. I had seen the debris from ours and one other 2 years before. Locals have told me of others. Only after contacting Tom Woll at FRA and bringing this to his attention , were even those 2 added to the history.

The thing that kept me thinking that LOOK , LISTEN and LIVE was enough to keep us safe, was we did also employ the STOP that OLI used to preach. This is a rural crossing, the county road T's into Hwy 287. At the time of the first wreck I saw the remains of , visability at the crossing was actually severly restricted, but as the BN never did any thing to change the apperance of the crossing, we all thought, 'the man hit just tried to beat the train'. After Jen was hit, I knew better, because of my history with friends being killed at grade rail crossings we were far more cautious than the average . It finally became apparent , we could not see far enough ( inadequate sight triangle ) to allow for the speed the trains going through the crossing. Only after we filed a wrongful death suit, did the BNSF come out and clean out the right of way , to allow a better opportunity to see the train coming. Texas laws speak of keeping right of ways cleared, mentioning of vegetation up to trees of 6 inches in diamater. They felled trees of more than a foot in diameter. Along with those wild plum trees that had grown up into the ballast.

Senator Hutchison, I know this is rather long, but I hope that something in here I relay to you gets your attention. The rail industry has pulled the wool over your eyes. The carnage continues because they are ,and have for decades behaved in a truely unresponsible manner. The numbers for grade rail crossing deaths are rising again, and that is with at least BNSF aggressively closing crossings. Train traffic is up and they refuse to maintain the clear line of sight necessary for safe passage over the danger area. The devices they use to activate flashing light, bells and gates fail. CFR's demand that FAILSAFE devices be used,and it is not being done.

It is just most of America does not understand the workings of the devices,and accept the term the rail industry has coined, mal-functioning.

I just went to the site of a crossing accident, resulting in the death of a vibrant young mother. Restricted visability, the tracks curve not far from the crossing, and beyond the curve , tracks nor train is visable. Track speed is 70 mph. Senator Hutchison, the school bus uses that crossing. And the local coverage of the accident lays all the blame for the accident at the drivers feet. Leaving all the local folks using that crossing believing that long as they drive in a prudent manner and look and listen, they will be safe. Actually they are playing Russian Roulette. Abet , unawares.

It has taken me years to acquire the ability to communicate with others on this subject , without rancor, and hopefully bring understanding of the underlying problem. Legislation must bring the rail industry to responsible corporate behavior. I pray you will be a leader in this quest.

[Anonymous]

For some odd reason Im not too suprised to hear that someone got rearended!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[edblysard]

Makes you wonder how "common" common sense is. Who would have though that a person would sue, and win, a company for selling coffee that was "too" hot..
Oh well,
Ed

[Anonymous]

As a point of interest, Operation Lifesaver has changed a few of the cliches normally associated with grade crossings. One is from "Trains can't stop, you can", to "Trains can't stop quickly". A number of news reports and news documentaries gave the impression that trains don't stop at all. Of course, there's nothing more absurd. Another is from "Stop, Look and Listen" to "Look, Listen and Live". According to OL literature, someone who had just been to an OL presentation came upon a siding that crossed a main street. The driver did just what they had just heard and was rear-ended by the following vehicle. The incident resulted in civil litigation which prompted OL to change the wording. Just when you thought you've heard everything.....
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[edblysard]

Sounds great, here the fines are steep, you may check with your local PD, throw a couple of local tv new cameras in, and you can bet their pr dept you would jump on it...
Stay frosty
Ed