John Baker
BR60103 wrote:Any word on the project to rebuild Flying Scotsman into a Thompson A1/1?
Doesn't it already have the A4 boiler which was a major part of the Thompson rebuild?
Tornado will be almost the same as an A1/1, but with longer outside connecting rods. Apparently Thompson was concerned with having all the connecting rods the same length for balancing purposes which was the cause of the rear-set cylinders on the Thompson rebuilds. The A1/1 was faster and more reliable than the A3s until K.J.Cook tightened up the clearances post WWII.
M636C
I think the point with "Flying Scotsman" is its been rebuilt so many times its difficult to say whether it is authentic or not. To recap:-
1) When built in 1922 it had a 180 psi boiler with a round dome. This was fairly low pressure by the standards of the time. The physical smaller GWR "Castle" 4-6-0's were able to out perform the Gresley Pacifics, as demonstrated in the 1924 exchange where "Pendennis Castle" out performed the Gresley's on their home turf and using Yorkshire coal rather than its normal diet of Welsh. As a result of this the LMS decided to opt for large 4-6-0's (the Royal Scot class) rather than Pacifics.
2) By the 1930's Gresley had fitted most of his A1 Pacifics with 250psi boilers, these rebuilds being classifed A3. Flying Scotsman however was only rebuilt to to this spec in 1947.
3) In BR days a number of A3's, including "Flying Scotsman" were rebuilt with newer boilers, double chimneys and German type smoke deflectors. When bought for preservations by Alan Pegler in 1963, Mr. Pegler also bought a 1930's type boiler from another A3, which he fitted to Flying Scotsman to give it the 1930;s look. The fact that it had not received such a boiler until 1947 did not deter him.
So from the above it can be said that Flying Scotsman has never been preserved in authentic condition. The upside of this is it runs better and the NRM are relaxed about making mods to it as its main function in their collection is to be a mainline capable locomotive.
John Bakeer wrote:M636C, You are well adrift from the sublime to suggest the destruction of part of our heritage. Flying Scotsman is in the midst of a major overhaul and will remain as we know it.
I didn't suggest it and I didn't say I agreed with it! I just gave some details of both locomotives!
Tulyar15 wrote: I think the point with "Flying Scotsman" is its been rebuilt so many times its difficult to say whether it is authentic or not. To recap:- 1) When built in 1922 it had a 180 psi boiler with a round dome. This was fairly low pressure by the standards of the time. The physical smaller GWR "Castle" 4-6-0's were able to out perform the Gresley Pacifics, as demonstrated in the 1924 exchange where "Pendennis Castle" out performed the Gresley's on their home turf and using Yorkshire coal rather than its normal diet of Welsh. As a result of this the LMS decided to opt for large 4-6-0's (the Royal Scot class) rather than Pacifics. 2) By the 1930's Gresley had fitted most of his A1 Pacifics with 250psi boilers, these rebuilds being classifed A3. Flying Scotsman however was only rebuilt to to this spec in 1947. 3) In BR days a number of A3's, including "Flying Scotsman" were rebuilt with newer boilers, double chimneys and German type smoke deflectors. When bought for preservations by Alan Pegler in 1963, Mr. Pegler also bought a 1930's type boiler from another A3, which he fitted to Flying Scotsman to give it the 1930;s look. The fact that it had not received such a boiler until 1947 did not deter him. So from the above it can be said that Flying Scotsman has never been preserved in authentic condition. The upside of this is it runs better and the NRM are relaxed about making mods to it as its main function in their collection is to be a mainline capable locomotive.
The A3 class had their boiler pressure set to 220 lbf/sq in, only the A4s used 250 lbf/sq in.
The main change made to the A1 was the change to long travel valves around 1928. Gresley's staff took careful measurements of the valve gear of Pendennis Castle while it was on loan (not easy, it was all inside the frames) and were able to determine what the advantages of the particular valve travel and timing were. These ideas were incorporated in the A1s which made them much more economical and allowed the Edinburgh non stop service.
The A3 boilers were the same size as the A1 boiler but worked at a higher pressure 220 lbf/sq in and could be recognised by rectangular "patches" on the smokebox covering the larger superheater header in this boiler. When a locomotive got the higher pressure boiler, the cylinders were reduced from 20" to 19" to keep the tractive effort similar. Later A3 boilers included the "banjo" dome which included a long steam collector, and the early covers were banjo shaped. Because of the cylinder change, no A3 reverted to A1, although it was theoretically possible when boilers were exchanged.
The streamlined A4 had a shorter boiler mated to a longer firebox with an enlarged combustion chamber, so the external dimensions were the same. The dome was further forward owing to the combustion chamber (although that wasn't visible on a streamlined A4). It was realised that this boiler would fit an A3 and even set to 220 lbf/sq in would give improved performance. Flying Scotsman now has an A4 boiler set to 220 lbf/sq in. I think both of 4472's boilers have banjo domes but I don't know if they are both A4 boilers.
Many Gresley pacifics received new frames owing to cracking of the plates during the 1930s and later, so it is unlikely that 4472 even has the original frames, so nothing but the nameplate would be original (and I think even that was changed for a larger one fairly early in its life - maybe the maker's plate is still original).
Well they've already rebuilt and re-opened half the Welsh Highland since 1998 (and laid an extra 3 miles north from the original WHR terminus at Dinas, on to Caernarvon on the former LNWR standard gauge trackbed, with a new easy to find terminus slap bang next to the famous castle. I believe this is close to where the original 3' 6" Nantlle TRamway terminus was (opened 1828). You can see places where the standard trackbed (opened 1867) deviates from the earlier 3' 6" tramway).
On the stock front, the Porthmadog Welsh Highland Railway (www.whr.co.uk) have restored most of the surviving WHR coaches (one or two others remain on the Ffestiniogh Railway, being seized by the FR when the WHR closed in 1937 as part payment of monies owed to the FR by the WHR) and the PWHR have the only surviving WHR loco, "Russell" a 2-6-2T built by Hunslet in 1906. They've also acquired an ex US Army Baldwin 4-6-0T, identical to the one which ran on the WHR.
Meanwhile for the 'Caernarvon' Welsh Highland several ex S. African 2-6-2 +2-6-2T Garratts have been acquired and they've also restored K1, the very first Garratt built in 1902.
If I remember rightly, the surviving production Deltics (In TOPS number order) are:-
55 002 King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry - National Railway Museum, York
55 009 Alycidon - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill
55 015 Tulyar - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill
55 016 Gordon Highlander - same as 55 022 (see below)
55 019 Royal Northumberland Fusilier - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill
55 022 Royal Scots Grey - taken over by a new group (successor to D9000 Ltd) who are maintaining it in main line running condition.
And of course the prototype Deltic is also owned by the National Railway Museum and is currently on display at Railworld, Shildon, Co. Durham.
For more info about the three owned by the Deltic Preservation Society see http://www.thedps.co.uk/staticpages/index.php?page=about
Yes, though 6 out of 22 is a good survival rate, and 3 of those six are currently passed for main line running. There was even talk of #2 'KOYLI' running main line but the people who were going to pay for her to be maintained in main line worthy condition ran out of money. (I think they were the same people behind the failed D9000 Ltd company which owned #16 and #22).
I gather the overhaul of #22 'Royal Scots Grey' is behind schedule and Pathfinder Tours have cancelled the trip they were going to run with her on January 2nd which is a shame. It was going to be a thrash from London Kings Cross to Newcastle via the East Coast Main Line (where a Deltic belongs!) with the return leg via the Durham Coast line. Hopefully they'll run the tour later in the year when the days are longer.
Tulyar15 wrote: 55 015 Tulyar - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill
Hmmmm....I thought Tulyar 15 was the name of a racehorse of the equine variety, not the diesel variety. Who got to name the locomotives anyhow?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
BR could be somewhat inconsistent in their naming policies. The Deltics were named after either racehorses or regiments. Racehorses were a carry-over from LNER which named a lot of their pacifics after race horses or company directors. LNER ran through a country with a number of famous race courses.
Funniest story I heard about naming was the Warship class (WR diesel hydraulics). They were named in alphabetical order with the numbers, and then they added a few on the end of the order. Someone suddenly had to come up with 3 ship names starting with "Z".
--David
BR60103 wrote: Funniest story I heard about naming was the Warship class (WR diesel hydraulics). They were named in alphabetical order with the numbers, and then they added a few on the end of the order. Someone suddenly had to come up with 3 ship names starting with "Z".
The reason for this was the late decision to build an extra 5 Warships at Swindon works, #866 - 870. This was due to late delivery of the batch being built by the North British Loco Co, #833 - 865. When this batch eventually did arrive they were inferior to their Swindon built sisters and were the first to be withdrawn. None survive.
On the subject of names #812 was originally allocate the name "Dispatch" but instead carried the name "The Royal Naval Reserve, 1859 - 1959" which had to be spelt out in smaller characters to fit the nameplate, and it took two rows to do so.
On the subject of survival out of the 74 strong Western class 4 of the 7 survivors are from the batch built at Swindon, #1000 - 1029. I wonder if the build quality of this batch was better than that of the Crewe built batch, given that a disproportionate number of survivors are from this batch. Funnily enought the same also applies to 9F 2-10-0's - the majority of survivors are from the Swindon batch #92200 - 92220, whereas 200 of the 250 strong class were built at Crewe.
In both instance to its credit Crewe built locos more quicklyu. Originally the Western order was to have been split 50/50 betweens the two works but because Swindon was slower Crewe ended building all but the first 30.
Worse, they'll just jack up the fares to cut off demand. This should not be allowed to happen when the government is claiming that it wants people to adopt greener forms of transport, and rail is a lot greener than air. Virgin Trains would like to buy extra cars to make the Pendolinos 11 car instead of the present 9 car formations, but without the necessary guarantees they can not do this.
Sadly the government seems more interested in building more airports, despite concerns about climate change, than investing in rail. An Anglo Scottish High Speed line would reduce demand for air travel and render the proposed new airports unnecessary.
Tulyar15 wrote: Worse, they'll just jack up the fares to cut off demand. < snip > An Anglo Scottish High Speed line would reduce demand for air travel and render the proposed new airports unnecessary.
Worse, they'll just jack up the fares to cut off demand.
< snip >
An Anglo Scottish High Speed line would reduce demand for air travel and render the proposed new airports unnecessary.
Sad but true. Politicians seem to think that you can treat trains like air travel but it is a much more hop on hop off system than air travel.
Is an Anglo Scottish high speed line longer than say Paris - Lyon or Paris - London?
If the total time by train is less than the total time by air it will win hands down, every time it seems.
greetings,
Marc Immeker
Tulyar15 wrote: An Anglo Scottish High Speed line would reduce demand for air travel and render the proposed new airports unnecessary.
Could it compete with the airlines?
Murphy Siding wrote: Tulyar15 wrote: An Anglo Scottish High Speed line would reduce demand for air travel and render the proposed new airports unnecessary. Could it compete with the airlines?
Absolutely. The distance is similar to Paris - Lyon. Experience there and also with the Chunnel shows that once you bring the journey time between two cities by rail down to 3 hours or less, rail wins hands down. Since the Chunnel opened, Eurostar now has 2/3rds of the total market for travelling between London and Paris and 80% of the premium business market. The opening of the second phase of the High Speed Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL) in to London St. Pancras will make rail competitive for journeys to places further afield on the continent.
Murphy Siding wrote: I'm reading a book by Brian Hollingsworth about locomotives. He writes that the 3300h.p. Class 66 retired all the class 31, 33, and 47 units, and most of the class 37 units. After raving about the class 66, he ends by saying that they haul all but the heaviest trains. I thought most British trains weren't what we Americans would consider "heavy". What locomotives are used on the heavier trains? Don't they MU locomotives for that? Thanks
Murphy, the British built Class 60 locomotives, or EW&S' small batch of Class 59/2s work the heaviest trains. The Class 66s were spec'd as more general purpose machines. The Class 59s which preceeded the Class 66s were the equivilent to a SD40-2SS, with heavy duty traction alternator and motors. With the Class 66 EW&S ordered larger fuel tanks, and changing requirements required larger mufflers. To balance the weight of the extra fuel, they are equipped with lower capacity alternator and traction motors. They are more comparible to a US GP59, reasonable pulling power, but good speed, 75 mph capability. The other big UK freight operator, Freightliner, ordered a batch of Class 66 with a lower gear ratio which increased their pulling power.
I know on the Ebbw (pronounced "Eb-oo" ) Vale line Class 60's were preferred to 66's. On one occassion a 66 stalled with a steel train and had to be assisted by a 37, whereas a 60 had managed to re-start a heavier train.
Although EWS have retired all their class 31, 33 and 47's, a number of these locos are still in use with Open Access operators.
Murphy Siding wrote: Tulyar15 wrote: 55 015 Tulyar - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill Hmmmm....I thought Tulyar 15 was the name of a racehorse of the equine variety, not the diesel variety. Who got to name the locomotives anyhow?
You have to think back to 1962 when the Deltics were introduced. They literally replaced the A4 Pacifics that had been running for 25 years or so and the railway organisation hadn't changed. The locomotives were allocated to locomotive depots at Finsbury Park (34G) just north of London, Gateshead (52A) near Newcastle on Tyne and Haymarket (64B), near Edinburgh, these of course being the locations (if not the exact depots) used by the steam locomotives.
The London based locomotives were named after racehorses, as were many of the steam locomotives on this service. The Newcastle based locomotives were named after English regiments of the British Army (particulary those from nearby) and the Edinburgh based locomotives were named after Scottish regiments. Newcastle had two fewer locomotives than the capital city depots.
It is probably worth pointing out that when the "TOPS" numbers were introduced, an attempt was made to retain the final digits the same, so D9000 and D9001 to D9021 became 55022 and 55001 to 55021 respectively (since "000" was not used as a number in that system).
The trains that convey rock through Stockport (mainly at night) are usually topped and tailed. I have not seen any in MU mode.
NIHIL DICE.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.