What is it with diesel-hydraulics? Those that had / have them in numbers seem to love them and those that don't seem to hate them. Or at least want to get rid of them as fast as they can.
greetings,
Marc Immeker
Tulyar15 wrote: After all, rail does not need such stringent security measures because trains dont drop out of the sky!
After all, rail does not need such stringent security measures because trains dont drop out of the sky!
No, but they do travel through dense cities, and if an onboard bomb were carrying the right 'payload' the results could be devastating. Terrorists will choose the path of less resistance if it can get them the results they want. Its only a matter of time that many rail systems will have to have their own stringent security measures.
Vaughn
CrazyDiamond wrote: Tulyar15 wrote: After all, rail does not need such stringent security measures because trains dont drop out of the sky! No, but they do travel through dense cities, and if an onboard bomb were carrying the right 'payload' the results could be devastating. Terrorists will choose the path of less resistance if it can get them the results they want. Its only a matter of time that many rail systems will have to have their own stringent security measures. Vaughn
Same can be said of road traffic (remember Oklahoma City?) yet there are no gates at the entrances to cities were cars and trucks are searched. Don't let those idiots scare you or they win every time. Normal precautions should be enough.
Worry more about the chemical stuff that is being moved via rail. Especially if it moves in standard containers. Who knows how well protected they are compared to the construction of a tank car....
Diesel - Hydraulics are alive and well in most of the standard DMU classes in the UK today.
The trouble with the Hydraulic locos in the UK was, I think, a three-fold problem.
Firstly the technology was new. Germany had come to terms with hydraulic traction and had engineering capability to deal with problems arising. The UK did not. In the 1960's many UK depots operated steam and diesel side by side. Staff were expected to be competent on both types and this clearly was'nt going to work.
Secondly the technology was complex. Hydraulic transmission needs high-revving power units which need more finely balanced over-rides and protection systems. A lot of the failures on UK hydraulic locos were attributed to "ancillary" failures - eg. sticking oil pressure valves which would shut down an engine.
Thirdly the technology was non-standard. Only the Western Region of BR ordered hydraulics in any number. As freight traffic fell away in the 1970's - and the West Coast Main Line was electrified - diesel electrics became surplus on other regions and standardised classes became available to the Western Region.
Having said that I don't think there's any doubt that the men who worked the hydraulics loved them. No worries about overload - you can put a hydraulic straight into notch (run) 9 and after shaking itself a bit it will go. Failures were easily rectified by isolated the failed component.
Our 15x classes of DMU don't necessarily do the glamour jobs but they are hydraulic and, with improved systems and technology, work exceptionally well.
I think one of the problems with the WR diesel hydraulics was build quality - especially those built by the North British Loco Co of Glasgow. Even in steam days that builder had issues with build quality. For instance, the batch of "King Arthur" 4-6-0's supplied tp the Southern Railway by NBL were found to be off inferior build quality and had to be called into Eastleigh works to have the defects rectifiied. (Ironically the only survivor of this class, #30777 "Sir Lamiel" is from this batch!).
The diesel electric D6100 class, also built by NBL were also poor performers until some of them were rebuilt by BR Inverurie works with Paxmans engines ( a forerunner of the Paxman engine which powers the HST!). Given the similarity between the diesel-electric D6100 and the hydraulic D6300 class it's suprising BR did not use this as an oppurtunity to compare the merits of the different transmissions by allocating some D6100's to the Western and/or some D6300's to the Scottish region. (The Paxman engines latter fitted to some of the D6100's were first tried in a Swindon built "Warship" diesel-hydraulic loco which suggests the WR and ScR did at least talk to each other!).
As for the "Warships" and "Westerns" my comments about NBL apply to #D600-4 and #D833-869. Swindon works at this time was suffering from a shortage of labour ( a lot of workers were finding better paid jobs at the Rover car plant in the town) and this delayed a number of projects (it also explains why it took Swindon longer to build a smaller number of 9F's than Crewe did - both works got the order at the same time but as a result BR's last steam loco #92220 "Evening Star" was not the highest numbered 9F, which confused some trainspotters!). This compounded with the problems in scaling down German designs to the fit the BR loading gauge resulted in the "Warships" and "Westerns" having lots of teething problems, and most of the "Westerns" ended up being built at Crewe; only the first 30 were built at Swindon. (Curiously though, the majority of preserved "Westerns" are from the Swindon batch; likewise 9F 2-10-0s! - Perhaps when Swindon did eventually get round to building something they at least did their best - the Swindon Cross Country DMU's lasted well though sadly none are preserved).
This just leaves the "Hymeks", which by contrast Beyer Peacock designed from a clean sheet of paper. B-P also seemed to have had good build quality - I seem to remember the batch of class 25 diesel electrics they built were better than their sisters built at the BR works at Derby & Darlington. The old Canton driver I know rates the "Hymeks" as far and away the best of the hydraulic classes. He's not a fan of the "Westerns" though he admits they had good acceleration. HE much prefers the 47's though he admits a 50 is even better!
Just this morning NS had its regular half page ad in the free rush hour newspaper Metro.
It put the spotlight on its international division known as Nedrailways.
In Great Britain it operates the Merseyrail and Northern Rail concessions together with a company called Serco.
Merseyrail (around Liverpool, 2005 figures):
100.000 travellers/ day
growth 6 %
punctuality 93 % based on 5 minute norm
1.100 workers
60 trains and 600 trainservices / day
120 km track and 66 stations
Northern Rail (2005):
200.000 travellers / day
growth 12.5 % punctuality from 84,3 to 86 %
4.500 workers
270 trains and 2.500 trainservices / day
2.800 km track and 475 stations in an area larger than the Netherlands.
Just wondering how do they compare to other railroad companies in Britain and against good old BR?
John Baker
I think Merseyrail has been one of the more successful franchises. Then again it could hardly not be as its self contained and got modern stock and infrastructure. From what I can gather NS/Serco are doing a better job with the Northern franchise than Arriva.
Serco/NS are one of three bidders for the West Midlands franchise that have made to the shortlist ( the other two ar GoVia and MTR Corporation, who run the Hong Kong metro; existing operator National Express has not made the short list).
Mu brother has added some archive pics of Shrewsbury to his site, including some of loco hauled trains with pairs of class 25's. Happy days!
http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Shrewsbury/index.htm
I think it must be price. We can definitely still build boilers in Britain. The Bradford (W. Yorks) based firm of Israel Newton has recently made boilers for the following locos:-
1) Welsh Highland 0-4-0 + 0-4-0 Beyer-Garratt
2) the new Linton & Barnstaple 2-6-2T being built by the Ffestiniog Railway
3) Llangollen Railway 0-6-0PT # 6412
4) The new engine unit for the Great Western society's steam railmotor.
The firm was featured in one of the Fred Dibnah TV programmes.
Exactly what sort of boilers did you acquire John? I realise people still make boilers for a number of applications, such as power stations. In the UK in the last 10 years most new power stations have been gas fired, where natural gas is used to power gas turbine engines and then the hot exhaust gases are used to make steam which powers steam turbines (probably triple expansion).
Fred Dibnah talked about "Lancashire Boilers" on a number of occassions but never explained exactly what a "Lancashire Boiler" is. Do you know?
As for Israel Newton, I think the GWR Pannier Tank boiler was probably the largest boiler they've made in recent years.
As for rivets, I know the new boiler bein made for the Porthmadog Welsh Highland's (www.whr.co.uk) Baldwin 4-6-0T will be welded but will have dummy rivets to make it look authentic!
This question was asked about the Deltics on the Trains.com forum-
is it true or not,was the deltic designed for work in the states ? was it a political decision not to have them ? if they did would more have been built ? help !!!!!!
is it true or not,was the deltic designed for work in the states ? was it a political decision not to have them ? if they did would more have been built ?
help !!!!!!
If anyone would like to answer, the question is here-
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/923379/ShowPost.aspx
English Electric were quite successful at exporting diesel locomotives in the 1940's and 1950's. Whilst this was mostly to British Commonwealth countries, other countries they supplies included Argentina, Brazil, Spain, Portugal and Poland.
In some of the African and S. American countries they supplied operating conditions were based on US practice, so it was a prudent business move when building a prototype, such as the prototype Deltic to make it suitable for such conditions. As a result the prototype Deltic had a huge headlamp and its body was similar to those of some electric locos built for Brazil and Spain in the 1950's. I believe there was an attempt to interest one of the Canadian railways in acquiring some deltics and there was talk of shipping the prototype Deltic to Canada but this never happened.
The Deltics were expensive compared with other diesel locos and even within the English Electric company not everyone admired them. On the plus side they enabled British Rail's North Eastern region to provide passenger train schedules which would otherwise only have been possible with electrification, which BR could not afford at that time. However, once Gerald Fiennes, the NER General Manager responsible for masterminding their introduction had gone, enthusiam for them dried up. However the speeds that the Deltics made possible resulted in the development of the High Speed Diesel Train (or HST as they soon became referred). I believe the use of Deltic engines in these was considered but instead they opted for the Paxman Valenta, a 12 cylinder four stroke engine the developments costs of which were shared between the manufacturer (also part of the English Electric group by the late 1960's), BR and the Royal Navy. (Valentas are used in battleships too!).
The only other deltic powered locomotives I know were the short lived 1,100 hp "Baby Deltic" Bo-Bo which had a 9 cylinder Deltic engine in them. Only 10 of these were built as they were less reliable and more costly to run than the more numerous 1,100hp Sulzer engined locos. The "Baby Deltic"s were all withdrawn by 1972, though one survived with BR's research department and was used by them for hauling test trains for some years after, until replaced in this role by one of the Sulzer locos.
As for English Electric, the last locos they built for export were some 2,000hp diesels in the 1970s for Malaysia. These employed the same 12 cylinder engine as used in the BR class 37's but their bodies were similar in appearance to the BR class 50's. I believe some of these are still in use.
"Deltic" engines have been used as generators and when my brother Derek worked in an engineering company in Newcastle-on-Tyne in the 1980's they had a Deltic engine performing that role.
Didn't North British build steam loco's for Newfoundland?
Also, Wilfrid F Sims shows pictures of a Brush / Clayton BR type 4 locomotive in Cuban National Railwasy volume II. Ten were delivered in 1965-1966, class 52501-52510.
They were apparently not a success.
John Bakeer wrote:Martin, Newfoundland is part of the Dominion of Canada a British Commonwealth country, not the United States of America. -----------.
Newfoundland (usually pronounced newfunland) joined Canada as its 10th province in 1949, and is officially known as Newfoundland and Labrador. Prior to that time Newfoundland had been a self governing colony of Britain, except during the period 1934 to 1949 when due to economic difficulties it was governed by a Commision of Government headed by a British governor.
Canada dropped the use of the term Dominion as part of its title in 1949.
Thus ends this little history lesson.
Isambard
Grizzly Northern history, Tales from the Grizzly and news on line at isambard5935.blogspot.com
martin.knoepfel wrote:A question concerning the LCR high-speed-ROW from London to the Chunnel. Are there any plans to use it for fast commuter-trains from the southeast of England into London? I could imagine branch-lines beeing built to continental clearances served by commuter-trains taking advantage of higher top-speeds on the new high-speed-ROW.
John, you should have popped in for a brew if you were passing Newton's, it's only 5 minutes from our house!
I read somewhere recently (can't remember where) that there's a company in Darlington currently making traction engine replicas - complete with boilers - and that they're considering "upsizing" into the locomotive business.
They're associated with the new-build G5 project.
Having said that I've also read that the "Clan" project have been evicted from Swanage.
Whilst the A1 will doubtless be at large shortly I'm yet to be convinced that all of these projects to build a new standard gauge steam loco can be viable. There are still a good number of scrap condition steam locos dotted around the country that seem to lack the financial or human resources for restoration.
I don't think there's anything unique but I'm sure that many preserved lines would love a Black 5, GWR 41xx etc if they could be restored.
marcimmeker wrote: Didn't North British build steam loco's for Newfoundland?
Quite possibly, most of the locos they built went for export, and they exported them all over the world. I gather one of the last orders for steam locos they had were some oil burning, Caprotti valve gear fitted Pacifics for a railway in Argentina. But these locos suffered from poor build quality, and did not have long lives.
As to the question of building new steam locos, I think it's a question of economics. The Ffestiniog Railway built a new Double Fairlie, the present "Earl of Merioneth" in 1977 because they decided it would be cheaper than overhauling the existing one (which has now reverted to its original name of "Livingston Thompson" and has been stuffed and mounted). Since then the FR have built another new Double Fairlie ("David Lloyd George") and a new single Fairlie ("Tailiesin") and are current build a new Lynton & Barnstaple 2-6-2T (as are the people re-building the L & B).
Likewise the Corris Railway decided to build a new loco because they decided it would be cheaper than adapting an East European loco to fit their restriced loading gauge. They are now thinking of building a second new loco but they've not decided whether it will be another "Tattoo" class ( of which CR/TR #4 "Edward Thomas" is one of several surviving examples, likewise "Tankil No. 3", the loco built in 1971) or a replica of CR/TR #3 "Sir Haydyn". There are several problems with the latter, including the lack of a complete set of drawings and the fact that "Sir Haydyn" is not a very maintenance friendly loco and a bit of a rough rider.
--David
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