British Railway Operations

[John Bakeer]

Simon,
The WCML goes through Picadilly and in pre-nationalisation days Ardwick was the largest(?) goods yard in the country.
East of Standedge was almost all quadruple track through to Leeds/Wakefield and most of the formation is still present. To the West there were two seperate alignments from Diggle, one to Stalybridge (the closed section) and the present twin track line to Ashton/Stalybridge and on to Victoria/Picadilly, as you say this line is crying out for expansion (have you driven from Manchester to Leeds or v-v at 8.00am?) and is a comparatively easy job (NIMBY's excluded).
Once spent 72 sleepless hrs commissioning a casting facility (RB211) in Yeadon for a site less than 35 quid. Oh! to be young again.
John B.

[martin.knoepfel]

It would be a great idea to have a freight-line with larger clearances from the Midlands through the Chunnel to France. Double-stack containers-trains und TOFC. However, there is no  connection on the Continent.  The project makes sense only if exsiting freight-lines in France would be rebuilt to larger clearances, at least from Lille to the heavily industrialized Ruhr or Main-Ruhr-area in Germany. Technically, this would be feasable.

[John Bakeer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><table class="quoteOuterTable"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/trccs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>Murphy Siding wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">     I recently found an interesting book.  (I'm a book *nut*).  It's about walking around historical sites in Great Britain.  One walking tour is about an abandonded rail line.  ( I haven't had time to read it yet).  Is there a common use for abandonded rail line in Britain, like "rails to trails", as is popular in the U.S.  Or, do the abandonded lines do like they do in my area, and just melt back into the countryside?</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's an interesting site,
I found it browsing Google Earth <subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations> it gives an insite to all/ most of the closed stations/tunnels along the Woodhead route.
In the words of Rowen and Matins German "very interesting, but ???"
John B.

[John Bakeer]

Murphy,
This new system is still giving me problems (as you can see this is going to be a long learning curve for this TOG), I have somehow deleted your post.
Please accept my sincere apologies.
John B.

[Murphy Siding]

     John:  I'm having problems adjusting to the new system as well.  Where is the link to the site you mention?   Thanks

[Simon Reed]

John, WCML goes to Picc adilly but there's no physical connection from the Northbound side onto the Guide Bridge route.

A chord would be needed, which would'nt be an easy engineering project given that both routes are on viaducts at Ardwick Junction.

[John Bakeer]

Murphy,
My pooter dosn't need the bits of stuff-http//www,- required on the old system with which you pre-fix to the link. The alternative is to download <http//www.googlearth> this is a link to freeware to a satelight that covers most of the world, you need to subscribe in order to print a view.
Simon.
You are correct, but there is a disused viaduct with track in situ near Ardwick, I don't know where it goes to, but it may have possibilities.
I'm going to have a rummage around the Manchester City Hall web site to see if my theory works.
John B.

[John Bakeer]

Simon,
I think your point about access from WCML to Guide Bridge may be incorrect
Stock stored and/or seviced at Longsight has access to all running tracks into and out of Piccadilly, also the main track maintenance depot is at Guide Bridge, without actually going to Piccadilly and looking at the track layout I cannot be absolutely certain.
A zap around on Google Earth shows that enough formation is around to make almost any scheme feasible, some of which is now owned by Central Railways. Yes, they are very much alive and purchasing land and right of way as it becomes available.
John B.

[Hugh Jampton]

Not sure that a through route would actually gain you owt though. With cabs at both ends it's simple to do a reversing move if the train is not terminating.

[daveklepper]

I sure hope the scheme is successful for more traffic diverted from road to rail.

[John Bakeer]

Hugh,
I understand the Hunslet EMU's currently run Glossop-Piccadilly-Stockport-Warrington-Preston etc.
John B.

[Anonymous]

I would be suprised if Hunslet EMU's ran Stockport-Warrington/Preston as there aren't any wires!

[Tulyar15]

Hi all,

I've just returned from a very enjoyable week's holiday in Carlisle. My brother and a couple of friends rented a flat for a week in an old brewery (which is now a hall of residence for the University of Central Lancashire's Carlisle campus!) which was right beside the West Coast Main Line, about 1/4 mile north of Carlisle station. All trains have to use this piece of track since the freight avoiding lines were closed in 1983 after a bridge over the River Caldew was damaged by a runaway freight train.

Inevitably most freights were hauled by 66's but other locos seen in action included classes 20, 37, 47, 57/3, 86, 90 and 92. The piece de resistance was freight with 4 locos on it - two 92's and two 66's, but only the leading 92 was under power.

As for heritage railways , we  visited the Ravenglass and Eskdale (very impressive, it runs a 30 min frequency which requires 5 steam locos to be in steam. If you were to scale up this 15" gauge lines 2-8-2's to 4' 8.5" they'd dwarf anything that ran on the mainline here!) and the 2' gauge South Tyndale Railway. In addition to drinking in some of the best pubs in the City we also visited a pub near Wetherall station on the line to Newcastle. I forget it's name but its been local CAMRA Pub of the Year and is by the line. You can get to it from Wetherall station by walking along a footpath besides the lines which takes you over the impressive viaduct over the River Eden - it's about a 10 minute walk. During the half hour in which we drunk our first pint we saw 5 trains - 2 passenger, 3 freight - 2 x 66  and 1 x 37!

All in all a thorough enjoyable holiday, The Old Brewery residence is 10 minutes walk from Carlisle City Centre and rail station and the flats therein are available to hire during the summer holidays. More info at www.impacthousing.org.uk

 

[John Bakeer]

By Jove!
There are some pedantic people out there. I didn't mean they actually ran between those places, only TO them.
John B.

[Simon Reed]

Sounds like a splendid time, Tulyar.

Photos?

[Anonymous]

I see GNER and DAft by proxy have lost their court case v the ORR in regards to open access on the East Coast Main Line. So all aboard for Grand Central and direct trains to Sunderland then.

Watch those premiums tumble for the next round of franchising. And watch those subsidies increase. This may actually be the spur which sees the wheel turn yet another notch in its circle. They may actually contemplate Network Rail taking on a franchise just to see how much money they could save.

Would be interesting to say the least.

 

[Tulyar15]

The other encouraging development is that the Dept. of Transport has finally woken up to what a rip off the Rolling Stock Co's (ROSCO's) are. As I've said before, an example of this is that they charge £500,000 pa for each cl 158 DMU (these cost BR £1million apiece back in 1990) so during their 15 year franchise Wales & Borders will have had to pay £7.5 million (ie £500K times 15!) for trains which cost BR £1 million. So it's good to see the DfT finally waking up to this fact - I hope they order the ROSCO's to cut their charges by a factor of at least 10 or better still confiscate the trains and give them to the Train Operators. The considerable amount of money thus saved could then be spent on improvements to the network.

I am please Grand Central have got the go ahead! GNER are just too complacent - all they've done is sit back and sweat the assets they inherited from BR. They could have invested in extra trains (as other TOC's have done since privtisation) but they've been far too risk averse. So others prepared to take the risks - first Hull Trains, now Grand Central - should be allowed to do so. (In fact GNER could have served Sunderland without having to find any extra stock or crews simply by running the Aberdeen and Inverness HSTs via Sunderland - after all why do those trains need to run under the wires?).

My brother and I took lots of photos during our stay in Carlisle - these will appear on his website in due course.

[owlsroost]

Roger Ford's take on the current ROSCO (rolling stock leasing companies) situation is here - http://home.ezezine.com/759/759-2006.07.24.00.01.archive.html (a longer version is in the current 'Modern Railways' mag).

Some archive stuff on ROSCO's here -
http://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/INFORMED%20SOURCES%20ARCHIVE/INF%20SRCS%202004/Informed%20Sources%2010%202004%20p2.htm
http://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/INFORMED%20SOURCES%20ARCHIVE/INF%20SRCS%202006/Informed%20Sources%2003%202006%20p3.htm

The bit the DfT is arguing about is just the capital cost element of the leases, which isn't the major part - the rest is for maintenance (overhauls, refurbishments etc which the ROSCO's pay for).

They could have invested in extra trains (as other TOC's have done since privtisation) but they've been far too risk averse.

The 91's+Mk4's were by far the newest IC stock at privatisation, and GNER had Eurostar sets on lease for some time to supplement them (extra HST's weren't available at the time). Now that spare HST's are around they've leased more of those in place of the Eurostars - the big problem on the ECML is track and electrical supply capacity south of Hitchin at peak periods, rather than lack of rolling stock.

...and TOC's haven't invested in new trains - the ROSCO's have done that....

In fact GNER could have served Sunderland without having to find any extra stock or crews simply by running the Aberdeen and Inverness HSTs via Sunderland - after all why do those trains need to run under the wires?

It's a lot slower running via Sunderland, and the Newcastle - Sunderland stretch is also now shared with T&W Metro trains.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Tony

I quite enjoy Mr Fords ezine and column, it is very informative. Basically Daft cant actually tell the ROSCo's tro do anything; they have asked the ORR to investigate the market to see if it is worth a further referral to the Competition Commission. As with everything bureaucratic, it will take time.

Freight traffic down here in the Duchy is looking decidedly iffy at the minute. I was suprised slightly as the original rumour was that Rock (Goonbarrow) was going to shut with Burngullow remaining open, however it seems that the reverse is true. None of the pits nor Marsh Mills loads on saturdays anymore, IMERYS have just ordered 80odd large tractor units and are investing in their hauliers so it aint looking good for the Clay traffic. As Irvine is now partly served from Quidhampton and Aberdeen....

[Tulyar15]

Roger Ford's take on the current ROSCO (rolling stock leasing companies) situation is here - http://home.ezezine.com/759/759-2006.07.24.00.01.archive.html (a longer version is in the current 'Modern Railways' mag).

Some archive stuff on ROSCO's here -
http://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/INFORMED%20SOURCES%20ARCHIVE/INF%20SRCS%202004/Informed%20Sources%2010%202004%20p2.htm
http://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/INFORMED%20SOURCES%20ARCHIVE/INF%20SRCS%202006/Informed%20Sources%2003%202006%20p3.htm

The bit the DfT is arguing about is just the capital cost element of the leases, which isn't the major part - the rest is for maintenance (overhauls, refurbishments etc which the ROSCO's pay for).

They could have invested in extra trains (as other TOC's have done since privtisation) but they've been far too risk averse.

The 91's+Mk4's were by far the newest IC stock at privatisation, and GNER had Eurostar sets on lease for some time to supplement them (extra HST's weren't available at the time). Now that spare HST's are around they've leased more of those in place of the Eurostars - the big problem on the ECML is track and electrical supply capacity south of Hitchin at peak periods, rather than lack of rolling stock.

...and TOC's haven't invested in new trains - the ROSCO's have done that....

In fact GNER could have served Sunderland without having to find any extra stock or crews simply by running the Aberdeen and Inverness HSTs via Sunderland - after all why do those trains need to run under the wires?

It's a lot slower running via Sunderland, and the Newcastle - Sunderland stretch is also now shared with T&W Metro trains.

Tony

True but the people using those trains probably would not be too botherer - anyone in a hurry to get from London to Aberdeen goes by plane.

As for your point about ROSCO's investing in new trains - that's rather like saying Barclay's Bank invests in new houses just becuase it gives you a mortgage to buy a new house. To be fair Porterbrook have made speculative investments in new trains (ie ordering them before a TOC has come along and asked for some). Significantly Porterbrook is owned by Stagecoach, the bus company which for a long time was the only one to order new buses; the other ROSCO's are owned by the banks, who we all know are past masters at the art of ripping people off.

[owlsroost]

As for your point about ROSCO's investing in new trains - that's rather like saying Barclay's Bank invests in new houses just becuase it gives you a mortgage to buy a new house.

It's not the same at all - if you buy a house with a mortgage, the house is used as security for a loan which funds your purchase, so that if you default on the loan repayments the mortgage lender has the right take possesion of the property and sell it to recover the outstanding loan amount. But, you (not the mortgage lender) owns the house right from the beginning, and are responsible for maintenance, insurance etc.

TOC train leases are normally operating leases, where the ROSCO owns the rolling stock and hires it to the TOC for set period of time (usually up to the end of the franchise period, which is much shorter than the lifetime of the train). When the lease period expires, it's up to the ROSCO to find another customer for the trains - that's where the commercial risk comes in (and it does go wrong - quite new class 458's and 180's are coming off-lease, and I suspect we're about to have a surplus of 158's to add to the other trains the ROSCO's own but are having to store). In some cases the Government has guarenteed the leases for new trains beyond the franchise period so as to reduce the leasing costs.

You can't seriously claim to be investing in anything when you don't end up owning it (or a least share of it) - the money for hiring/leasing costs is just running costs which the TOC is paying from it's farebox and subsidy income.

To be fair Porterbrook have made speculative investments in new trains (ie ordering them before a TOC has come along and asked for some). Significantly Porterbrook is owned by Stagecoach, the bus company which for a long time was the only one to order new buses; the other ROSCO's are owned by the banks, who we all know are past masters at the art of ripping people off.

Porterbrook has been owned by Abbey National since 2000, the other two are owned by HSBC and Banco Santander.

Tony

[owlsroost]

Talking of new rolling stock, anyone had a ride on the new TransPennine 185 DMUs ?

I had my first sight and ride on one last week - the engine/exhaust noise from outside is MUCH louder than any other modern DMU I can think of (someone I was with thought it sounded a bit like a Western - not entirely convinced myself but I could see what he meant).

I'm not complaining as a railfan, but I'm a bit surprised they meet modern noise regs.

Tony

[Tulyar15]

Given that  there is a nationwide shortage of stock, I would not have thought the ROSCO's would have any difficulty finding takers for these allegedy surplus 158's - Wales & Borders for one.

At the moment I know a lot of people who commute from Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton who are having to put up with over crowding (due to rolling stock shortage) whilst perfectly serivceable ex-Virgin Mk'2s sit idle at Oxley. If the ROSCO's did not charge silly prices those carriages could be used to alleviate rush hour over crowding. I dont understand why the ROSCO's dont charge a more realistic price - as a friend used to say "50% of something is better than 100% of nothing".

[John Bakeer]

Leasing costs can be offset against corporation tax (currently 30%), therefore £500,000.00 pa. becomes £350,000.00 pa. I wonder where the balance goes?
Having had experience of acquiring company transport, leasing with its related tax, labour and capital investment savings is a very good option.
John B.

[Simon Reed]

Tony - very noisy from the outside, incredibly quiet inside and a far better ride than the 158's.

I've had a few rides but last Saturday evening had 185113 back from Scunthorpe to Doncaster, having been on a steelworks tour.

THAT is something I'd wholeheartedly recommend. We had the standard afternoon tour of the site, then a brakevan tour in the evening and saw more or less everything.

A friend had a GPS doobrey with him - across both tours we did 28 miles and did'nt really repeat ourselves. At various points on the brakevan tour we got as close to the blast furnaces as you can get, went through the middle of one of the bar mills and trundled down the NR exchange sidings. Tremendous.    

[John Bakeer]

I'm pleased you enjoyed your trip to Scunny Simon. Was it Normamby Park? Did some work there in mid 70's put in the hydraulics for the rolling mills and wire mill.
Steel making (heavy engineering of any kind) is a most satisfying job.
They had some deisel hydraulic 0-8-0/0-6-0/0-4-0's when I was there. I think they were Hunset and/or Clayton types.
John B.

[malcolmyoung]

I'm pleased you enjoyed your trip to Scunny Simon. Was it Normamby Park? Did some work there in mid 70's put in the hydraulics for the rolling mills and wire mill. Steel making (heavy engineering of any kind) is a most satisfying job. They had some deisel hydraulic 0-8-0/0-6-0/0-4-0's when I was there. I think they were Hunset and/or Clayton types. John B.

Normanby Park steelworks closed down and was demolished, I think, in the early 1980s. The huge Appleby -Frodingham steelworks does railtours of its works, often using steam haulage, with a Polish 0-6-0 tank locomotive.

Malc. 

[Simon Reed]

The Polish machine is out of traffic at the moment.

We had a Peckett 0-4-0ST (1438 of 1916), a Yorkshire 0-6-0 diesel electric and ex BR "02" D2853 - carrying a 26D shed plate (Bank Hall.)

The tours are operated by the Appleby Frodingham Railway Preservation Society using their stock and traction although I understand that on special occasions Corus locos are used. 

 I'm not even sure where Normanby Park was. I presume that it was rail-served, but I probably first went to Cleethorpes with a "40" in about 1981 and can only remember Appleby-Frodingham.

Mind you, that's a long time ago and I'd have been listening more than looking!    

[Tulyar15]

Talking of steel works, does anyone know if Workington is closing and if so when? I thought it was but when I went past it on the way to Ravenglass during my stay in Carlisle it was definitely active. Not only did we pass a train of rails between there and Carlisle, but we saw at least one 0-6-0 diesel shunter at work on the internal rail network.

Incidentally the name of the pub I mentioned beside the Carlisle - Newcastle line is "The Corby Bridge Inn".

[owlsroost]

Talking of steel works, does anyone know if Workington is closing and if so when? I thought it was but when I went past it on the way to Ravenglass during my stay in Carlisle it was definitely active.

According to the Corus press release - http://www.corusgroup.com/en-GB/news/news/2005/2005_scunthorpe_steelworks - it looks like rail production will be transferred to Scunthorpe over the next 12 months as the new production facility is commissioned.

BTW, if the Mk2's at Oxley are the ex-VWC Euston - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stock, I'd be surprised if they weren't just awaiting collection for the scrap dealer - they've had 35 years of hard life already.

Tony