QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed How do the cherries from E/wash move? [:D][:p] Originally posted by greyhounds Originally posted by futuremodal [ You forgot your other smiley face. Gabe Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:38 PM How do the cherries from E/wash move? [:D][:p] Originally posted by greyhounds Originally posted by futuremodal [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:11 PM High Iron I know where you are coming from on the apples. Know about getting on a good run I had one of those I would pick up Mickeyds hamburgers in West Chicago and take them to Tennesee abut 2 hrs esat of Memphis. Then I would unload go to memphis PU a load of colorado kool aid and go to West Chicago to unload said kool and go PU another load of hamburgers. 9hrs on the main legs of the run got it down so I could be in TN by 8 oclock at night then sleep till morning at the reciver then unload go to memphis and sleep at the next reciver avarage miles per week 3900 week end week out at 30 CPM made alot of coin on that run. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:00 AM Dont get me started on chicago. Yeesh... I think some of the rats in the South Side market by Roosevelt Exit off the loop eye us drivers as a potential snack. (Imagine the biggest rat story you ever heard... now I tell you *arms wide.. they are THIS big.) Reply Edit gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:52 AM Couldn't resist the Chicago trans-load jab could you? I would laugh; but I am still choking on the smog emanating from the highway. Gabe Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:52 AM I would like to take a bite out of this apple please. I have run Apples out of Yakima and Wenatchee. If memory serves there are many shippers of Apples. There is a company out of Little Rock that ran teams to and from the Northwest. We rely on that part of Washington State to get a back haul to at LEAST the Mississippi River. I like walmart delivery because we had a account where you simply need to "Drop off" the trailer load of apples and pick up an empty trailer and be on your way in 15 minutes. NOW THAT's GOLDEN. (Dont ask about actually unloading at walmart, that is something drivers have to deal with) Walmarts get alot of these Apples. However, My part in the Little Rock was to relieve the team of thier long haul Apples at Little Rock and finsih the delivery into say... Safeway Foods at Atlanta Ga. The Team is then free to take a McKesson load west instead of having to go to atlanta to sit and deliver the apples. By the time I finish driving the 12 hours or so to Atlanta, sleep and rise early to arrange the unloading it is near 24 hours before that load is completed. At that time, that team is already past Armarillo Texas and 2 days from LA. That is productivity. Now I have a potential to find a load west from anywhere within a day of Atlanta and drop it off for the returning team coming back to Little Rock. This way I can support several team trucks and if you can stand the hours, sleep and dealing with the sometimes crazy issues there is money all around. My problem with the Apples is that they must have the same temperature or very close to it and no issues with the refridgeration. Feed that trailer with fuel. Especially in the summer. The second issue with apples is when I arrive at Safeway Foods in Atlanta at 10 PM, the security lets me inside the property to sleep because Apples are "TOP PRIORITY" and it is a bad area. Food recievers generally recieve inbound shipments between 5-11 AM and start to ship to food stores any time late in the afternoon. The public should in best scenario have the hands on the apples next day off my truck. Or... about 4 days from leaving the Apple Shipper. Besides Meat Loads, Apples and Fruits are next in. Then you need to get the dry goods like Potato Chips, Popcorn, Cheese etc etc.. Woe to those who are hauling paper plates. They unload last. (Not always... just luck of the draw.) So when the reciever shows up for work at 6 am in the morning (Or "Mawning" as we say in the south) the first question they ask is: "IZ DAT APPLE MAN HEAH YET?? WHERE HE BE AT?! GO FIND HIM Y'ALL" You definately dont want to be late, asleep or indisposed or eating when those words come thru the door. I am the one that stands next to the pay phone in line and if I do it right let the yard boys run about outside while I present the papers to the happy reciever. **Edited to note that I would be checking messages on my cell phone while leaning on the rusting and vandalized payphone. If you are wondering why Apples are 1.00 a pound, it is because of the Columbia and other rivers irrigation problems. Apple Growers fight Aluminum interests and Salmon as well as other pressures to keep thier trees watered. Last time I came thru there tens of acres of old trees were destroyed and new ones planted. I think by now they should be bursting with apples. I think it has potential for Rail transport out of there, but the railroad that undertakes this task should be totally focused on these three things: 1- Reliable refridgeration... Transicold or Carrier. Anything else is wussy and weak. 2- Personel You need people to tend, fuel and monitor those loads all the way to the customer 3- You are not finished with the Apple run until you can get reloaded and back to Washington State. Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:47 AM Carload railroading sucks! I once wrote a simple computer simulation of a carload system and it showed the system would (suprise) produce erradic delivery times, cars would pass each other in transit and arrive out of order. They would also bunch up. Just like the real world. There are too many "events" in loose car railroading - and each event has an opportunity for failure. And there's little anyone can do to fix reliability on the carload side. Intermodal and unit trains work becuse they reduce the number of "events". Basically solid trains just run from origin to destination with intermediate handling (such as the cross town in Chicago) being done by truck. Railroads can, and do, produce good reliable truck competivie service with their intermodal operations (UPS proves that). And the apples will some day find their way into double stack service. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:18 AM Greyhounds, I am largely in agreement with your contentions. However, I think the problem is business' need for certainty and the uncertainty of rail service (not to be confused with how long it takes to get freight from point A to point B). My father owns a small steel—which is not a time-sensitive commodity—company. Often rail prices will beat truck prices and often rail service will be feasible. However, for reasons that appear to be capricious to my father, rail rates will spike with specific loads, or rail will—in all practicality—deny service altogether. Add the fact that on nine loads from Muskogee to Peoria, it will take four days to deliver the freight and the tenth load will inexplicably take a month and the problems of rail service become apparent. My father's business is customer oriented. If his transportation company can't reliably deliver to a customer just twice a year, things go south. My father is all too aware of the trucker shortage and that, in a simplistic sense, shipping by rail would be cheaper for him than by truck. But the headaches and expenses encountered by truck pale in comparison to those caused by rail's capricious periodic and poor service. I think this is why the apples will continue to go by truck. Curious as to your thoughts. Gabe Reply greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:43 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails. Actually no. Half the domestic consumption of Washington apples is in population centers east of, or on, the Mississippi River. It's long haul, high volume business and apples aren't all that time sensative. They're marketed year 'round in fairly steady volumes though a process called "controled atmosphere storage". They come off the trees and go into storage. The volumes are just freaking huge. Accordig to the USDA during the week ended April 23, 2005 there were 36,040 tons of apples shipped by truck from Washington for domesticc consumption. Half of that went at least as far east as the Mississippi. At 21 tons per load, that's 1,716 truckloads in a week. Heck, they could run double stack apple unit trains at those volumes. I think it all boils down to the fact that railroads are just not marketing companies. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:12 AM When I was doing it the owner/operator would take any backhaul to the general area where he was going to for basically diesel money. Now I would suspect with the recent spike + others to come many owner/operators may have had to raise their rates which has slowed down the backhaul biz. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by Muddy Creek Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:02 AM I also wanted to state that there are good people out there. If you happen to find a company that runs the way you like to with a support staff (Shop, dispatch, safety etc) that allows you to run good miles in a decent rig while making some money each week then you have the best trucking can offer. I have seen this and can say that these folks have my loyalty and desire to "run the extra mile" just so. Railroad Engineers from my view along with other railroad men does not seem to endure such trials as we drivers did. When the hog law (Hours) is up, they take the reverser in th pocket and head for bed. I forgot to mention parking, sometimes your hours may be up but you might have to drive an extra 100 miles or so looking over what is left of "Legal" parking spots in certain hours of day and regions. I have had seen the "Hell ship" and also the good life on the road, I would not change it for anything. But I advocate change towards a better situation for everyone involved in moving freight. Shippers and Recievers are virtual gods when it comes to "whistling" up a truck to carry widgets somewhere. Companies from the shop boy all the way up to the stockholders are at risk if they cannot keep the Shippers and Recievers happy. Take the M and M candy bar you eat. They are made by MM Mars and Kraft. If you are told to haul a load of candy, the first thing you need to do is clean up, do laundry and get your rig washed and trailer washed out. Any odor anywhere is grounds for "refusal" to load. If you happen to get into the cycle for running a series of loads over several weeks for the same set of shippers and recievers... that can be really good for building trust in you as a driver and you in the dispatch as everyone "In the groove" Being in the groove is where it's as good as it gets. Be strong of heart and morals and stay away from temptation. Finally: "KEEP THAT LEFT DOOR SHUT!!!" dont stop at every little place. You would be surprised how much that 15 minute coffee break can do to your schedule. C ya all on the flip side. Reply Edit edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:38 AM I have to agree with both High Iron and passengerfan on this issue. I drove 5 years until my medical card was revocked. I personally have had to run so hard it is not funny. 44 hours Salinas Ca to the midwest solo. Made the run so the boss could keep the account for Wal-Mart adn my dispatcher stood up for me and gave me a day off to rest. Got a call that day from our saftey director saying he was going to fine me for HOS probelms. I called and talked to personal and the owner of the company needless to say the bosses told the saftey director to SHOVE IT WHERE THE SUN DON"T SHINE. All I have to say is shippers and recivers need to be held responsible for all loading and unloading of freight. At least at the companies I drove for he could hire lumpers to unload and load if needed our trucks. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply passengerfan Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Central Valley California 2,841 posts Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:11 AM Retired after 28 years in the trucking industry and have seen tons of drivers come and go. It is not an industry that is easy on homelife, nor is it a way to get rich quick or even slowly. But if one works hard stays honest and gives it hisor her best they will make a good living. The companies that are constantly advertising for drivers will always be advertising for drivers and the reason is its the way they treat the drivers they have. Go to work for the right companies and they treat drivers honestly and fairly. I order many things via the internet today and most ship either parcel post or UPS. Those that ship via UPS give you a tracking number and you can watch the progress of your package as it crosses the country to you. Don't know of any railroads that can pin a carload down as accurately as UPS does and be correct every time. No wonder UPS continues to grow while other trucking companies seem to disappear after only a few years. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:20 AM HighIron Working as a traffic manger for companies that used long distance trucking service, I saw the genisis of the problems that you speak of. After deregulation, shippers and receivers started dumping work on drivers with no extra compensation. Getting something for nothing became the name of the game. I wouldn't play that game and I actually once told a boss to shove it, leaving the job with due notice, but no good immediate job prospects for myself. The companies that I worked for that weren't totally obsessive about squeezing the last dime out of the truckers actually received better service and with enough new business coming from the good customer service probably actually made more money. Railroading can be a tough gig, but the last I heard, the train crews do get paid for the work they do, and nobody winks at the hours of service limits, or tells them to get to the destination terminal at a certain time, even if they have to exceed speed limits "But don't get caught". Don't balme you for getting out. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:50 PM It is the way of life that are killing some of the drivers. When I started late in the 1980's you actually had about 10 days to get to the West coast and life was pretty routine and decent with time each day for showers, food etc.. With the qualcomm system cutting out the loss of information, increases efficency and other major and truly valued improve ments such as break down recovery etc etc etc. Bottom line. PAY. A reefer driver probably will have to wait 40 hours each week. That is unpaid time. It is also time that is "Up-time" that is spent being awake and under pressure to get loaded and rolling. When it is actually loaded and ready the driver is too worn out, hungry, tired, dirty etc to make the run especially in remote areas. Drivers who cannot manage the money bury themselves on comchecks. Drivers who have kids, family and other life issues are sometimes caught between trucking and coming home to anything that may see McBuck to a factory for some. Dispatch promises home time. Baloney. You can expect to be dispatched anywhere BUT your home town for at least 4 weeks. I have been gone for as long as 6 months. Sickness, Sexual deviancy, drugs and problems in bad areas cut down on healthy and safe drivers. Out moded laws and very very deep rooted ideas such as "Wink wink" regarding log books, pretrips, loads around scales known to be open etc etc... Anything that interferes with keeping the wheels rolling (Including sleep) are "Managed" to the point of breaking down of basic human decency and desire to make a good living. Keep in mind that drivers are financially liable personally for many things while on the job. If they cannot meet the schedules on time, there are 50 more coming out of orientation rested and eager to put in the 90 day wonder. If I sound too negative that is only because I took a stand against most of these problems and with my spouse formed a good team that ran 24/7 only to see insufficient time in a day to get everything done that needs to be kept up. Last and not the least is the environment on trash C.B. Prositute hunting, drug running and other activities that threaten a driver's personal welbeing and health. The last 5 years of my trucking my radio was off unless leading a convoy thru bad weather. That I know how to do. ANd my personal favorite..... Drive 1200 miles over 24 hours arrive just in time to meet the appointment (Saving your job until the next run) only to be told you need to unload 1400 cases in 130 degree trailer heat in less than 5 hours so that they can clear the dock for shipping. If you dont get unloaded in that time period then you will be sent away to wait until another appointment is made (usually several days later) totally wrecking your month away from home. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:15 PM Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 7:07 PM Agreed. (Other than your example of shipping Washington apples to a state that should be able to produce al the apples it could ever use if it wasn't cutting down orchards for McMansions.) On the other hand, most long distance truckers aren't heading back home empty, are they? I thought that was the beauty of trucking, that there is always a paying load bound for somewhere in your general destination. Wayne Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Truck Driver Shortage Posted by greyhounds on Monday, April 25, 2005 6:45 PM Well, if they'd just put the trailers on flatcars, they wouldn't have this problem now would they? http://fleetowner.com/news/topstory/driver_shortage_earning_quarter_truck_042505/ Seriously, it's a waste of a scarce resource (truck drivers) to have one person drive 21 tons of apples from Washington State to New York City; and then drive all the way back. Over and over again. Sooner or latter some one with the power to change things will figure that out. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply « First«-10123 Join our Community! 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Originally posted by greyhounds Originally posted by futuremodal [ You forgot your other smiley face. Gabe Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:38 PM How do the cherries from E/wash move? [:D][:p] Originally posted by greyhounds Originally posted by futuremodal [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:11 PM High Iron I know where you are coming from on the apples. Know about getting on a good run I had one of those I would pick up Mickeyds hamburgers in West Chicago and take them to Tennesee abut 2 hrs esat of Memphis. Then I would unload go to memphis PU a load of colorado kool aid and go to West Chicago to unload said kool and go PU another load of hamburgers. 9hrs on the main legs of the run got it down so I could be in TN by 8 oclock at night then sleep till morning at the reciver then unload go to memphis and sleep at the next reciver avarage miles per week 3900 week end week out at 30 CPM made alot of coin on that run. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:00 AM Dont get me started on chicago. Yeesh... I think some of the rats in the South Side market by Roosevelt Exit off the loop eye us drivers as a potential snack. (Imagine the biggest rat story you ever heard... now I tell you *arms wide.. they are THIS big.) Reply Edit gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:52 AM Couldn't resist the Chicago trans-load jab could you? I would laugh; but I am still choking on the smog emanating from the highway. Gabe Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:52 AM I would like to take a bite out of this apple please. I have run Apples out of Yakima and Wenatchee. If memory serves there are many shippers of Apples. There is a company out of Little Rock that ran teams to and from the Northwest. We rely on that part of Washington State to get a back haul to at LEAST the Mississippi River. I like walmart delivery because we had a account where you simply need to "Drop off" the trailer load of apples and pick up an empty trailer and be on your way in 15 minutes. NOW THAT's GOLDEN. (Dont ask about actually unloading at walmart, that is something drivers have to deal with) Walmarts get alot of these Apples. However, My part in the Little Rock was to relieve the team of thier long haul Apples at Little Rock and finsih the delivery into say... Safeway Foods at Atlanta Ga. The Team is then free to take a McKesson load west instead of having to go to atlanta to sit and deliver the apples. By the time I finish driving the 12 hours or so to Atlanta, sleep and rise early to arrange the unloading it is near 24 hours before that load is completed. At that time, that team is already past Armarillo Texas and 2 days from LA. That is productivity. Now I have a potential to find a load west from anywhere within a day of Atlanta and drop it off for the returning team coming back to Little Rock. This way I can support several team trucks and if you can stand the hours, sleep and dealing with the sometimes crazy issues there is money all around. My problem with the Apples is that they must have the same temperature or very close to it and no issues with the refridgeration. Feed that trailer with fuel. Especially in the summer. The second issue with apples is when I arrive at Safeway Foods in Atlanta at 10 PM, the security lets me inside the property to sleep because Apples are "TOP PRIORITY" and it is a bad area. Food recievers generally recieve inbound shipments between 5-11 AM and start to ship to food stores any time late in the afternoon. The public should in best scenario have the hands on the apples next day off my truck. Or... about 4 days from leaving the Apple Shipper. Besides Meat Loads, Apples and Fruits are next in. Then you need to get the dry goods like Potato Chips, Popcorn, Cheese etc etc.. Woe to those who are hauling paper plates. They unload last. (Not always... just luck of the draw.) So when the reciever shows up for work at 6 am in the morning (Or "Mawning" as we say in the south) the first question they ask is: "IZ DAT APPLE MAN HEAH YET?? WHERE HE BE AT?! GO FIND HIM Y'ALL" You definately dont want to be late, asleep or indisposed or eating when those words come thru the door. I am the one that stands next to the pay phone in line and if I do it right let the yard boys run about outside while I present the papers to the happy reciever. **Edited to note that I would be checking messages on my cell phone while leaning on the rusting and vandalized payphone. If you are wondering why Apples are 1.00 a pound, it is because of the Columbia and other rivers irrigation problems. Apple Growers fight Aluminum interests and Salmon as well as other pressures to keep thier trees watered. Last time I came thru there tens of acres of old trees were destroyed and new ones planted. I think by now they should be bursting with apples. I think it has potential for Rail transport out of there, but the railroad that undertakes this task should be totally focused on these three things: 1- Reliable refridgeration... Transicold or Carrier. Anything else is wussy and weak. 2- Personel You need people to tend, fuel and monitor those loads all the way to the customer 3- You are not finished with the Apple run until you can get reloaded and back to Washington State. Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:47 AM Carload railroading sucks! I once wrote a simple computer simulation of a carload system and it showed the system would (suprise) produce erradic delivery times, cars would pass each other in transit and arrive out of order. They would also bunch up. Just like the real world. There are too many "events" in loose car railroading - and each event has an opportunity for failure. And there's little anyone can do to fix reliability on the carload side. Intermodal and unit trains work becuse they reduce the number of "events". Basically solid trains just run from origin to destination with intermediate handling (such as the cross town in Chicago) being done by truck. Railroads can, and do, produce good reliable truck competivie service with their intermodal operations (UPS proves that). And the apples will some day find their way into double stack service. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:18 AM Greyhounds, I am largely in agreement with your contentions. However, I think the problem is business' need for certainty and the uncertainty of rail service (not to be confused with how long it takes to get freight from point A to point B). My father owns a small steel—which is not a time-sensitive commodity—company. Often rail prices will beat truck prices and often rail service will be feasible. However, for reasons that appear to be capricious to my father, rail rates will spike with specific loads, or rail will—in all practicality—deny service altogether. Add the fact that on nine loads from Muskogee to Peoria, it will take four days to deliver the freight and the tenth load will inexplicably take a month and the problems of rail service become apparent. My father's business is customer oriented. If his transportation company can't reliably deliver to a customer just twice a year, things go south. My father is all too aware of the trucker shortage and that, in a simplistic sense, shipping by rail would be cheaper for him than by truck. But the headaches and expenses encountered by truck pale in comparison to those caused by rail's capricious periodic and poor service. I think this is why the apples will continue to go by truck. Curious as to your thoughts. Gabe Reply greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:43 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails. Actually no. Half the domestic consumption of Washington apples is in population centers east of, or on, the Mississippi River. It's long haul, high volume business and apples aren't all that time sensative. They're marketed year 'round in fairly steady volumes though a process called "controled atmosphere storage". They come off the trees and go into storage. The volumes are just freaking huge. Accordig to the USDA during the week ended April 23, 2005 there were 36,040 tons of apples shipped by truck from Washington for domesticc consumption. Half of that went at least as far east as the Mississippi. At 21 tons per load, that's 1,716 truckloads in a week. Heck, they could run double stack apple unit trains at those volumes. I think it all boils down to the fact that railroads are just not marketing companies. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:12 AM When I was doing it the owner/operator would take any backhaul to the general area where he was going to for basically diesel money. Now I would suspect with the recent spike + others to come many owner/operators may have had to raise their rates which has slowed down the backhaul biz. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by Muddy Creek Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:02 AM I also wanted to state that there are good people out there. If you happen to find a company that runs the way you like to with a support staff (Shop, dispatch, safety etc) that allows you to run good miles in a decent rig while making some money each week then you have the best trucking can offer. I have seen this and can say that these folks have my loyalty and desire to "run the extra mile" just so. Railroad Engineers from my view along with other railroad men does not seem to endure such trials as we drivers did. When the hog law (Hours) is up, they take the reverser in th pocket and head for bed. I forgot to mention parking, sometimes your hours may be up but you might have to drive an extra 100 miles or so looking over what is left of "Legal" parking spots in certain hours of day and regions. I have had seen the "Hell ship" and also the good life on the road, I would not change it for anything. But I advocate change towards a better situation for everyone involved in moving freight. Shippers and Recievers are virtual gods when it comes to "whistling" up a truck to carry widgets somewhere. Companies from the shop boy all the way up to the stockholders are at risk if they cannot keep the Shippers and Recievers happy. Take the M and M candy bar you eat. They are made by MM Mars and Kraft. If you are told to haul a load of candy, the first thing you need to do is clean up, do laundry and get your rig washed and trailer washed out. Any odor anywhere is grounds for "refusal" to load. If you happen to get into the cycle for running a series of loads over several weeks for the same set of shippers and recievers... that can be really good for building trust in you as a driver and you in the dispatch as everyone "In the groove" Being in the groove is where it's as good as it gets. Be strong of heart and morals and stay away from temptation. Finally: "KEEP THAT LEFT DOOR SHUT!!!" dont stop at every little place. You would be surprised how much that 15 minute coffee break can do to your schedule. C ya all on the flip side. Reply Edit edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:38 AM I have to agree with both High Iron and passengerfan on this issue. I drove 5 years until my medical card was revocked. I personally have had to run so hard it is not funny. 44 hours Salinas Ca to the midwest solo. Made the run so the boss could keep the account for Wal-Mart adn my dispatcher stood up for me and gave me a day off to rest. Got a call that day from our saftey director saying he was going to fine me for HOS probelms. I called and talked to personal and the owner of the company needless to say the bosses told the saftey director to SHOVE IT WHERE THE SUN DON"T SHINE. All I have to say is shippers and recivers need to be held responsible for all loading and unloading of freight. At least at the companies I drove for he could hire lumpers to unload and load if needed our trucks. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply passengerfan Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Central Valley California 2,841 posts Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:11 AM Retired after 28 years in the trucking industry and have seen tons of drivers come and go. It is not an industry that is easy on homelife, nor is it a way to get rich quick or even slowly. But if one works hard stays honest and gives it hisor her best they will make a good living. The companies that are constantly advertising for drivers will always be advertising for drivers and the reason is its the way they treat the drivers they have. Go to work for the right companies and they treat drivers honestly and fairly. I order many things via the internet today and most ship either parcel post or UPS. Those that ship via UPS give you a tracking number and you can watch the progress of your package as it crosses the country to you. Don't know of any railroads that can pin a carload down as accurately as UPS does and be correct every time. No wonder UPS continues to grow while other trucking companies seem to disappear after only a few years. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:20 AM HighIron Working as a traffic manger for companies that used long distance trucking service, I saw the genisis of the problems that you speak of. After deregulation, shippers and receivers started dumping work on drivers with no extra compensation. Getting something for nothing became the name of the game. I wouldn't play that game and I actually once told a boss to shove it, leaving the job with due notice, but no good immediate job prospects for myself. The companies that I worked for that weren't totally obsessive about squeezing the last dime out of the truckers actually received better service and with enough new business coming from the good customer service probably actually made more money. Railroading can be a tough gig, but the last I heard, the train crews do get paid for the work they do, and nobody winks at the hours of service limits, or tells them to get to the destination terminal at a certain time, even if they have to exceed speed limits "But don't get caught". Don't balme you for getting out. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:50 PM It is the way of life that are killing some of the drivers. When I started late in the 1980's you actually had about 10 days to get to the West coast and life was pretty routine and decent with time each day for showers, food etc.. With the qualcomm system cutting out the loss of information, increases efficency and other major and truly valued improve ments such as break down recovery etc etc etc. Bottom line. PAY. A reefer driver probably will have to wait 40 hours each week. That is unpaid time. It is also time that is "Up-time" that is spent being awake and under pressure to get loaded and rolling. When it is actually loaded and ready the driver is too worn out, hungry, tired, dirty etc to make the run especially in remote areas. Drivers who cannot manage the money bury themselves on comchecks. Drivers who have kids, family and other life issues are sometimes caught between trucking and coming home to anything that may see McBuck to a factory for some. Dispatch promises home time. Baloney. You can expect to be dispatched anywhere BUT your home town for at least 4 weeks. I have been gone for as long as 6 months. Sickness, Sexual deviancy, drugs and problems in bad areas cut down on healthy and safe drivers. Out moded laws and very very deep rooted ideas such as "Wink wink" regarding log books, pretrips, loads around scales known to be open etc etc... Anything that interferes with keeping the wheels rolling (Including sleep) are "Managed" to the point of breaking down of basic human decency and desire to make a good living. Keep in mind that drivers are financially liable personally for many things while on the job. If they cannot meet the schedules on time, there are 50 more coming out of orientation rested and eager to put in the 90 day wonder. If I sound too negative that is only because I took a stand against most of these problems and with my spouse formed a good team that ran 24/7 only to see insufficient time in a day to get everything done that needs to be kept up. Last and not the least is the environment on trash C.B. Prositute hunting, drug running and other activities that threaten a driver's personal welbeing and health. The last 5 years of my trucking my radio was off unless leading a convoy thru bad weather. That I know how to do. ANd my personal favorite..... Drive 1200 miles over 24 hours arrive just in time to meet the appointment (Saving your job until the next run) only to be told you need to unload 1400 cases in 130 degree trailer heat in less than 5 hours so that they can clear the dock for shipping. If you dont get unloaded in that time period then you will be sent away to wait until another appointment is made (usually several days later) totally wrecking your month away from home. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:15 PM Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 7:07 PM Agreed. (Other than your example of shipping Washington apples to a state that should be able to produce al the apples it could ever use if it wasn't cutting down orchards for McMansions.) On the other hand, most long distance truckers aren't heading back home empty, are they? I thought that was the beauty of trucking, that there is always a paying load bound for somewhere in your general destination. Wayne Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Truck Driver Shortage Posted by greyhounds on Monday, April 25, 2005 6:45 PM Well, if they'd just put the trailers on flatcars, they wouldn't have this problem now would they? http://fleetowner.com/news/topstory/driver_shortage_earning_quarter_truck_042505/ Seriously, it's a waste of a scarce resource (truck drivers) to have one person drive 21 tons of apples from Washington State to New York City; and then drive all the way back. Over and over again. Sooner or latter some one with the power to change things will figure that out. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply « First«-10123 Join our Community! 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Originally posted by futuremodal [
Originally posted by greyhounds Originally posted by futuremodal [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:11 PM High Iron I know where you are coming from on the apples. Know about getting on a good run I had one of those I would pick up Mickeyds hamburgers in West Chicago and take them to Tennesee abut 2 hrs esat of Memphis. Then I would unload go to memphis PU a load of colorado kool aid and go to West Chicago to unload said kool and go PU another load of hamburgers. 9hrs on the main legs of the run got it down so I could be in TN by 8 oclock at night then sleep till morning at the reciver then unload go to memphis and sleep at the next reciver avarage miles per week 3900 week end week out at 30 CPM made alot of coin on that run. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:00 AM Dont get me started on chicago. Yeesh... I think some of the rats in the South Side market by Roosevelt Exit off the loop eye us drivers as a potential snack. (Imagine the biggest rat story you ever heard... now I tell you *arms wide.. they are THIS big.) Reply Edit gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:52 AM Couldn't resist the Chicago trans-load jab could you? I would laugh; but I am still choking on the smog emanating from the highway. Gabe Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:52 AM I would like to take a bite out of this apple please. I have run Apples out of Yakima and Wenatchee. If memory serves there are many shippers of Apples. There is a company out of Little Rock that ran teams to and from the Northwest. We rely on that part of Washington State to get a back haul to at LEAST the Mississippi River. I like walmart delivery because we had a account where you simply need to "Drop off" the trailer load of apples and pick up an empty trailer and be on your way in 15 minutes. NOW THAT's GOLDEN. (Dont ask about actually unloading at walmart, that is something drivers have to deal with) Walmarts get alot of these Apples. However, My part in the Little Rock was to relieve the team of thier long haul Apples at Little Rock and finsih the delivery into say... Safeway Foods at Atlanta Ga. The Team is then free to take a McKesson load west instead of having to go to atlanta to sit and deliver the apples. By the time I finish driving the 12 hours or so to Atlanta, sleep and rise early to arrange the unloading it is near 24 hours before that load is completed. At that time, that team is already past Armarillo Texas and 2 days from LA. That is productivity. Now I have a potential to find a load west from anywhere within a day of Atlanta and drop it off for the returning team coming back to Little Rock. This way I can support several team trucks and if you can stand the hours, sleep and dealing with the sometimes crazy issues there is money all around. My problem with the Apples is that they must have the same temperature or very close to it and no issues with the refridgeration. Feed that trailer with fuel. Especially in the summer. The second issue with apples is when I arrive at Safeway Foods in Atlanta at 10 PM, the security lets me inside the property to sleep because Apples are "TOP PRIORITY" and it is a bad area. Food recievers generally recieve inbound shipments between 5-11 AM and start to ship to food stores any time late in the afternoon. The public should in best scenario have the hands on the apples next day off my truck. Or... about 4 days from leaving the Apple Shipper. Besides Meat Loads, Apples and Fruits are next in. Then you need to get the dry goods like Potato Chips, Popcorn, Cheese etc etc.. Woe to those who are hauling paper plates. They unload last. (Not always... just luck of the draw.) So when the reciever shows up for work at 6 am in the morning (Or "Mawning" as we say in the south) the first question they ask is: "IZ DAT APPLE MAN HEAH YET?? WHERE HE BE AT?! GO FIND HIM Y'ALL" You definately dont want to be late, asleep or indisposed or eating when those words come thru the door. I am the one that stands next to the pay phone in line and if I do it right let the yard boys run about outside while I present the papers to the happy reciever. **Edited to note that I would be checking messages on my cell phone while leaning on the rusting and vandalized payphone. If you are wondering why Apples are 1.00 a pound, it is because of the Columbia and other rivers irrigation problems. Apple Growers fight Aluminum interests and Salmon as well as other pressures to keep thier trees watered. Last time I came thru there tens of acres of old trees were destroyed and new ones planted. I think by now they should be bursting with apples. I think it has potential for Rail transport out of there, but the railroad that undertakes this task should be totally focused on these three things: 1- Reliable refridgeration... Transicold or Carrier. Anything else is wussy and weak. 2- Personel You need people to tend, fuel and monitor those loads all the way to the customer 3- You are not finished with the Apple run until you can get reloaded and back to Washington State. Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:47 AM Carload railroading sucks! I once wrote a simple computer simulation of a carload system and it showed the system would (suprise) produce erradic delivery times, cars would pass each other in transit and arrive out of order. They would also bunch up. Just like the real world. There are too many "events" in loose car railroading - and each event has an opportunity for failure. And there's little anyone can do to fix reliability on the carload side. Intermodal and unit trains work becuse they reduce the number of "events". Basically solid trains just run from origin to destination with intermediate handling (such as the cross town in Chicago) being done by truck. Railroads can, and do, produce good reliable truck competivie service with their intermodal operations (UPS proves that). And the apples will some day find their way into double stack service. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:18 AM Greyhounds, I am largely in agreement with your contentions. However, I think the problem is business' need for certainty and the uncertainty of rail service (not to be confused with how long it takes to get freight from point A to point B). My father owns a small steel—which is not a time-sensitive commodity—company. Often rail prices will beat truck prices and often rail service will be feasible. However, for reasons that appear to be capricious to my father, rail rates will spike with specific loads, or rail will—in all practicality—deny service altogether. Add the fact that on nine loads from Muskogee to Peoria, it will take four days to deliver the freight and the tenth load will inexplicably take a month and the problems of rail service become apparent. My father's business is customer oriented. If his transportation company can't reliably deliver to a customer just twice a year, things go south. My father is all too aware of the trucker shortage and that, in a simplistic sense, shipping by rail would be cheaper for him than by truck. But the headaches and expenses encountered by truck pale in comparison to those caused by rail's capricious periodic and poor service. I think this is why the apples will continue to go by truck. Curious as to your thoughts. Gabe Reply greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:43 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails. Actually no. Half the domestic consumption of Washington apples is in population centers east of, or on, the Mississippi River. It's long haul, high volume business and apples aren't all that time sensative. They're marketed year 'round in fairly steady volumes though a process called "controled atmosphere storage". They come off the trees and go into storage. The volumes are just freaking huge. Accordig to the USDA during the week ended April 23, 2005 there were 36,040 tons of apples shipped by truck from Washington for domesticc consumption. Half of that went at least as far east as the Mississippi. At 21 tons per load, that's 1,716 truckloads in a week. Heck, they could run double stack apple unit trains at those volumes. I think it all boils down to the fact that railroads are just not marketing companies. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:12 AM When I was doing it the owner/operator would take any backhaul to the general area where he was going to for basically diesel money. Now I would suspect with the recent spike + others to come many owner/operators may have had to raise their rates which has slowed down the backhaul biz. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by Muddy Creek Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:02 AM I also wanted to state that there are good people out there. If you happen to find a company that runs the way you like to with a support staff (Shop, dispatch, safety etc) that allows you to run good miles in a decent rig while making some money each week then you have the best trucking can offer. I have seen this and can say that these folks have my loyalty and desire to "run the extra mile" just so. Railroad Engineers from my view along with other railroad men does not seem to endure such trials as we drivers did. When the hog law (Hours) is up, they take the reverser in th pocket and head for bed. I forgot to mention parking, sometimes your hours may be up but you might have to drive an extra 100 miles or so looking over what is left of "Legal" parking spots in certain hours of day and regions. I have had seen the "Hell ship" and also the good life on the road, I would not change it for anything. But I advocate change towards a better situation for everyone involved in moving freight. Shippers and Recievers are virtual gods when it comes to "whistling" up a truck to carry widgets somewhere. Companies from the shop boy all the way up to the stockholders are at risk if they cannot keep the Shippers and Recievers happy. Take the M and M candy bar you eat. They are made by MM Mars and Kraft. If you are told to haul a load of candy, the first thing you need to do is clean up, do laundry and get your rig washed and trailer washed out. Any odor anywhere is grounds for "refusal" to load. If you happen to get into the cycle for running a series of loads over several weeks for the same set of shippers and recievers... that can be really good for building trust in you as a driver and you in the dispatch as everyone "In the groove" Being in the groove is where it's as good as it gets. Be strong of heart and morals and stay away from temptation. Finally: "KEEP THAT LEFT DOOR SHUT!!!" dont stop at every little place. You would be surprised how much that 15 minute coffee break can do to your schedule. C ya all on the flip side. Reply Edit edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:38 AM I have to agree with both High Iron and passengerfan on this issue. I drove 5 years until my medical card was revocked. I personally have had to run so hard it is not funny. 44 hours Salinas Ca to the midwest solo. Made the run so the boss could keep the account for Wal-Mart adn my dispatcher stood up for me and gave me a day off to rest. Got a call that day from our saftey director saying he was going to fine me for HOS probelms. I called and talked to personal and the owner of the company needless to say the bosses told the saftey director to SHOVE IT WHERE THE SUN DON"T SHINE. All I have to say is shippers and recivers need to be held responsible for all loading and unloading of freight. At least at the companies I drove for he could hire lumpers to unload and load if needed our trucks. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply passengerfan Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Central Valley California 2,841 posts Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:11 AM Retired after 28 years in the trucking industry and have seen tons of drivers come and go. It is not an industry that is easy on homelife, nor is it a way to get rich quick or even slowly. But if one works hard stays honest and gives it hisor her best they will make a good living. The companies that are constantly advertising for drivers will always be advertising for drivers and the reason is its the way they treat the drivers they have. Go to work for the right companies and they treat drivers honestly and fairly. I order many things via the internet today and most ship either parcel post or UPS. Those that ship via UPS give you a tracking number and you can watch the progress of your package as it crosses the country to you. Don't know of any railroads that can pin a carload down as accurately as UPS does and be correct every time. No wonder UPS continues to grow while other trucking companies seem to disappear after only a few years. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:20 AM HighIron Working as a traffic manger for companies that used long distance trucking service, I saw the genisis of the problems that you speak of. After deregulation, shippers and receivers started dumping work on drivers with no extra compensation. Getting something for nothing became the name of the game. I wouldn't play that game and I actually once told a boss to shove it, leaving the job with due notice, but no good immediate job prospects for myself. The companies that I worked for that weren't totally obsessive about squeezing the last dime out of the truckers actually received better service and with enough new business coming from the good customer service probably actually made more money. Railroading can be a tough gig, but the last I heard, the train crews do get paid for the work they do, and nobody winks at the hours of service limits, or tells them to get to the destination terminal at a certain time, even if they have to exceed speed limits "But don't get caught". Don't balme you for getting out. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:50 PM It is the way of life that are killing some of the drivers. When I started late in the 1980's you actually had about 10 days to get to the West coast and life was pretty routine and decent with time each day for showers, food etc.. With the qualcomm system cutting out the loss of information, increases efficency and other major and truly valued improve ments such as break down recovery etc etc etc. Bottom line. PAY. A reefer driver probably will have to wait 40 hours each week. That is unpaid time. It is also time that is "Up-time" that is spent being awake and under pressure to get loaded and rolling. When it is actually loaded and ready the driver is too worn out, hungry, tired, dirty etc to make the run especially in remote areas. Drivers who cannot manage the money bury themselves on comchecks. Drivers who have kids, family and other life issues are sometimes caught between trucking and coming home to anything that may see McBuck to a factory for some. Dispatch promises home time. Baloney. You can expect to be dispatched anywhere BUT your home town for at least 4 weeks. I have been gone for as long as 6 months. Sickness, Sexual deviancy, drugs and problems in bad areas cut down on healthy and safe drivers. Out moded laws and very very deep rooted ideas such as "Wink wink" regarding log books, pretrips, loads around scales known to be open etc etc... Anything that interferes with keeping the wheels rolling (Including sleep) are "Managed" to the point of breaking down of basic human decency and desire to make a good living. Keep in mind that drivers are financially liable personally for many things while on the job. If they cannot meet the schedules on time, there are 50 more coming out of orientation rested and eager to put in the 90 day wonder. If I sound too negative that is only because I took a stand against most of these problems and with my spouse formed a good team that ran 24/7 only to see insufficient time in a day to get everything done that needs to be kept up. Last and not the least is the environment on trash C.B. Prositute hunting, drug running and other activities that threaten a driver's personal welbeing and health. The last 5 years of my trucking my radio was off unless leading a convoy thru bad weather. That I know how to do. ANd my personal favorite..... Drive 1200 miles over 24 hours arrive just in time to meet the appointment (Saving your job until the next run) only to be told you need to unload 1400 cases in 130 degree trailer heat in less than 5 hours so that they can clear the dock for shipping. If you dont get unloaded in that time period then you will be sent away to wait until another appointment is made (usually several days later) totally wrecking your month away from home. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:15 PM Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 7:07 PM Agreed. (Other than your example of shipping Washington apples to a state that should be able to produce al the apples it could ever use if it wasn't cutting down orchards for McMansions.) On the other hand, most long distance truckers aren't heading back home empty, are they? I thought that was the beauty of trucking, that there is always a paying load bound for somewhere in your general destination. Wayne Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Truck Driver Shortage Posted by greyhounds on Monday, April 25, 2005 6:45 PM Well, if they'd just put the trailers on flatcars, they wouldn't have this problem now would they? http://fleetowner.com/news/topstory/driver_shortage_earning_quarter_truck_042505/ Seriously, it's a waste of a scarce resource (truck drivers) to have one person drive 21 tons of apples from Washington State to New York City; and then drive all the way back. Over and over again. Sooner or latter some one with the power to change things will figure that out. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply « First«-10123 Join our Community! 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Originally posted by futuremodal [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:11 PM High Iron I know where you are coming from on the apples. Know about getting on a good run I had one of those I would pick up Mickeyds hamburgers in West Chicago and take them to Tennesee abut 2 hrs esat of Memphis. Then I would unload go to memphis PU a load of colorado kool aid and go to West Chicago to unload said kool and go PU another load of hamburgers. 9hrs on the main legs of the run got it down so I could be in TN by 8 oclock at night then sleep till morning at the reciver then unload go to memphis and sleep at the next reciver avarage miles per week 3900 week end week out at 30 CPM made alot of coin on that run. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:00 AM Dont get me started on chicago. Yeesh... I think some of the rats in the South Side market by Roosevelt Exit off the loop eye us drivers as a potential snack. (Imagine the biggest rat story you ever heard... now I tell you *arms wide.. they are THIS big.) Reply Edit gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:52 AM Couldn't resist the Chicago trans-load jab could you? I would laugh; but I am still choking on the smog emanating from the highway. Gabe Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:52 AM I would like to take a bite out of this apple please. I have run Apples out of Yakima and Wenatchee. If memory serves there are many shippers of Apples. There is a company out of Little Rock that ran teams to and from the Northwest. We rely on that part of Washington State to get a back haul to at LEAST the Mississippi River. I like walmart delivery because we had a account where you simply need to "Drop off" the trailer load of apples and pick up an empty trailer and be on your way in 15 minutes. NOW THAT's GOLDEN. (Dont ask about actually unloading at walmart, that is something drivers have to deal with) Walmarts get alot of these Apples. However, My part in the Little Rock was to relieve the team of thier long haul Apples at Little Rock and finsih the delivery into say... Safeway Foods at Atlanta Ga. The Team is then free to take a McKesson load west instead of having to go to atlanta to sit and deliver the apples. By the time I finish driving the 12 hours or so to Atlanta, sleep and rise early to arrange the unloading it is near 24 hours before that load is completed. At that time, that team is already past Armarillo Texas and 2 days from LA. That is productivity. Now I have a potential to find a load west from anywhere within a day of Atlanta and drop it off for the returning team coming back to Little Rock. This way I can support several team trucks and if you can stand the hours, sleep and dealing with the sometimes crazy issues there is money all around. My problem with the Apples is that they must have the same temperature or very close to it and no issues with the refridgeration. Feed that trailer with fuel. Especially in the summer. The second issue with apples is when I arrive at Safeway Foods in Atlanta at 10 PM, the security lets me inside the property to sleep because Apples are "TOP PRIORITY" and it is a bad area. Food recievers generally recieve inbound shipments between 5-11 AM and start to ship to food stores any time late in the afternoon. The public should in best scenario have the hands on the apples next day off my truck. Or... about 4 days from leaving the Apple Shipper. Besides Meat Loads, Apples and Fruits are next in. Then you need to get the dry goods like Potato Chips, Popcorn, Cheese etc etc.. Woe to those who are hauling paper plates. They unload last. (Not always... just luck of the draw.) So when the reciever shows up for work at 6 am in the morning (Or "Mawning" as we say in the south) the first question they ask is: "IZ DAT APPLE MAN HEAH YET?? WHERE HE BE AT?! GO FIND HIM Y'ALL" You definately dont want to be late, asleep or indisposed or eating when those words come thru the door. I am the one that stands next to the pay phone in line and if I do it right let the yard boys run about outside while I present the papers to the happy reciever. **Edited to note that I would be checking messages on my cell phone while leaning on the rusting and vandalized payphone. If you are wondering why Apples are 1.00 a pound, it is because of the Columbia and other rivers irrigation problems. Apple Growers fight Aluminum interests and Salmon as well as other pressures to keep thier trees watered. Last time I came thru there tens of acres of old trees were destroyed and new ones planted. I think by now they should be bursting with apples. I think it has potential for Rail transport out of there, but the railroad that undertakes this task should be totally focused on these three things: 1- Reliable refridgeration... Transicold or Carrier. Anything else is wussy and weak. 2- Personel You need people to tend, fuel and monitor those loads all the way to the customer 3- You are not finished with the Apple run until you can get reloaded and back to Washington State. Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:47 AM Carload railroading sucks! I once wrote a simple computer simulation of a carload system and it showed the system would (suprise) produce erradic delivery times, cars would pass each other in transit and arrive out of order. They would also bunch up. Just like the real world. There are too many "events" in loose car railroading - and each event has an opportunity for failure. And there's little anyone can do to fix reliability on the carload side. Intermodal and unit trains work becuse they reduce the number of "events". Basically solid trains just run from origin to destination with intermediate handling (such as the cross town in Chicago) being done by truck. Railroads can, and do, produce good reliable truck competivie service with their intermodal operations (UPS proves that). And the apples will some day find their way into double stack service. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply gabe Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Indianapolis, Indiana 2,434 posts Posted by gabe on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:18 AM Greyhounds, I am largely in agreement with your contentions. However, I think the problem is business' need for certainty and the uncertainty of rail service (not to be confused with how long it takes to get freight from point A to point B). My father owns a small steel—which is not a time-sensitive commodity—company. Often rail prices will beat truck prices and often rail service will be feasible. However, for reasons that appear to be capricious to my father, rail rates will spike with specific loads, or rail will—in all practicality—deny service altogether. Add the fact that on nine loads from Muskogee to Peoria, it will take four days to deliver the freight and the tenth load will inexplicably take a month and the problems of rail service become apparent. My father's business is customer oriented. If his transportation company can't reliably deliver to a customer just twice a year, things go south. My father is all too aware of the trucker shortage and that, in a simplistic sense, shipping by rail would be cheaper for him than by truck. But the headaches and expenses encountered by truck pale in comparison to those caused by rail's capricious periodic and poor service. I think this is why the apples will continue to go by truck. Curious as to your thoughts. Gabe Reply greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Posted by greyhounds on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:43 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails. Actually no. Half the domestic consumption of Washington apples is in population centers east of, or on, the Mississippi River. It's long haul, high volume business and apples aren't all that time sensative. They're marketed year 'round in fairly steady volumes though a process called "controled atmosphere storage". They come off the trees and go into storage. The volumes are just freaking huge. Accordig to the USDA during the week ended April 23, 2005 there were 36,040 tons of apples shipped by truck from Washington for domesticc consumption. Half of that went at least as far east as the Mississippi. At 21 tons per load, that's 1,716 truckloads in a week. Heck, they could run double stack apple unit trains at those volumes. I think it all boils down to the fact that railroads are just not marketing companies. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:12 AM When I was doing it the owner/operator would take any backhaul to the general area where he was going to for basically diesel money. Now I would suspect with the recent spike + others to come many owner/operators may have had to raise their rates which has slowed down the backhaul biz. [:o)][:p][:)] Originally posted by Muddy Creek Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:02 AM I also wanted to state that there are good people out there. If you happen to find a company that runs the way you like to with a support staff (Shop, dispatch, safety etc) that allows you to run good miles in a decent rig while making some money each week then you have the best trucking can offer. I have seen this and can say that these folks have my loyalty and desire to "run the extra mile" just so. Railroad Engineers from my view along with other railroad men does not seem to endure such trials as we drivers did. When the hog law (Hours) is up, they take the reverser in th pocket and head for bed. I forgot to mention parking, sometimes your hours may be up but you might have to drive an extra 100 miles or so looking over what is left of "Legal" parking spots in certain hours of day and regions. I have had seen the "Hell ship" and also the good life on the road, I would not change it for anything. But I advocate change towards a better situation for everyone involved in moving freight. Shippers and Recievers are virtual gods when it comes to "whistling" up a truck to carry widgets somewhere. Companies from the shop boy all the way up to the stockholders are at risk if they cannot keep the Shippers and Recievers happy. Take the M and M candy bar you eat. They are made by MM Mars and Kraft. If you are told to haul a load of candy, the first thing you need to do is clean up, do laundry and get your rig washed and trailer washed out. Any odor anywhere is grounds for "refusal" to load. If you happen to get into the cycle for running a series of loads over several weeks for the same set of shippers and recievers... that can be really good for building trust in you as a driver and you in the dispatch as everyone "In the groove" Being in the groove is where it's as good as it gets. Be strong of heart and morals and stay away from temptation. Finally: "KEEP THAT LEFT DOOR SHUT!!!" dont stop at every little place. You would be surprised how much that 15 minute coffee break can do to your schedule. C ya all on the flip side. Reply Edit edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:38 AM I have to agree with both High Iron and passengerfan on this issue. I drove 5 years until my medical card was revocked. I personally have had to run so hard it is not funny. 44 hours Salinas Ca to the midwest solo. Made the run so the boss could keep the account for Wal-Mart adn my dispatcher stood up for me and gave me a day off to rest. Got a call that day from our saftey director saying he was going to fine me for HOS probelms. I called and talked to personal and the owner of the company needless to say the bosses told the saftey director to SHOVE IT WHERE THE SUN DON"T SHINE. All I have to say is shippers and recivers need to be held responsible for all loading and unloading of freight. At least at the companies I drove for he could hire lumpers to unload and load if needed our trucks. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply passengerfan Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Central Valley California 2,841 posts Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:11 AM Retired after 28 years in the trucking industry and have seen tons of drivers come and go. It is not an industry that is easy on homelife, nor is it a way to get rich quick or even slowly. But if one works hard stays honest and gives it hisor her best they will make a good living. The companies that are constantly advertising for drivers will always be advertising for drivers and the reason is its the way they treat the drivers they have. Go to work for the right companies and they treat drivers honestly and fairly. I order many things via the internet today and most ship either parcel post or UPS. Those that ship via UPS give you a tracking number and you can watch the progress of your package as it crosses the country to you. Don't know of any railroads that can pin a carload down as accurately as UPS does and be correct every time. No wonder UPS continues to grow while other trucking companies seem to disappear after only a few years. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:20 AM HighIron Working as a traffic manger for companies that used long distance trucking service, I saw the genisis of the problems that you speak of. After deregulation, shippers and receivers started dumping work on drivers with no extra compensation. Getting something for nothing became the name of the game. I wouldn't play that game and I actually once told a boss to shove it, leaving the job with due notice, but no good immediate job prospects for myself. The companies that I worked for that weren't totally obsessive about squeezing the last dime out of the truckers actually received better service and with enough new business coming from the good customer service probably actually made more money. Railroading can be a tough gig, but the last I heard, the train crews do get paid for the work they do, and nobody winks at the hours of service limits, or tells them to get to the destination terminal at a certain time, even if they have to exceed speed limits "But don't get caught". Don't balme you for getting out. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:50 PM It is the way of life that are killing some of the drivers. When I started late in the 1980's you actually had about 10 days to get to the West coast and life was pretty routine and decent with time each day for showers, food etc.. With the qualcomm system cutting out the loss of information, increases efficency and other major and truly valued improve ments such as break down recovery etc etc etc. Bottom line. PAY. A reefer driver probably will have to wait 40 hours each week. That is unpaid time. It is also time that is "Up-time" that is spent being awake and under pressure to get loaded and rolling. When it is actually loaded and ready the driver is too worn out, hungry, tired, dirty etc to make the run especially in remote areas. Drivers who cannot manage the money bury themselves on comchecks. Drivers who have kids, family and other life issues are sometimes caught between trucking and coming home to anything that may see McBuck to a factory for some. Dispatch promises home time. Baloney. You can expect to be dispatched anywhere BUT your home town for at least 4 weeks. I have been gone for as long as 6 months. Sickness, Sexual deviancy, drugs and problems in bad areas cut down on healthy and safe drivers. Out moded laws and very very deep rooted ideas such as "Wink wink" regarding log books, pretrips, loads around scales known to be open etc etc... Anything that interferes with keeping the wheels rolling (Including sleep) are "Managed" to the point of breaking down of basic human decency and desire to make a good living. Keep in mind that drivers are financially liable personally for many things while on the job. If they cannot meet the schedules on time, there are 50 more coming out of orientation rested and eager to put in the 90 day wonder. If I sound too negative that is only because I took a stand against most of these problems and with my spouse formed a good team that ran 24/7 only to see insufficient time in a day to get everything done that needs to be kept up. Last and not the least is the environment on trash C.B. Prositute hunting, drug running and other activities that threaten a driver's personal welbeing and health. The last 5 years of my trucking my radio was off unless leading a convoy thru bad weather. That I know how to do. ANd my personal favorite..... Drive 1200 miles over 24 hours arrive just in time to meet the appointment (Saving your job until the next run) only to be told you need to unload 1400 cases in 130 degree trailer heat in less than 5 hours so that they can clear the dock for shipping. If you dont get unloaded in that time period then you will be sent away to wait until another appointment is made (usually several days later) totally wrecking your month away from home. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:15 PM Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 7:07 PM Agreed. (Other than your example of shipping Washington apples to a state that should be able to produce al the apples it could ever use if it wasn't cutting down orchards for McMansions.) On the other hand, most long distance truckers aren't heading back home empty, are they? I thought that was the beauty of trucking, that there is always a paying load bound for somewhere in your general destination. Wayne Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Truck Driver Shortage Posted by greyhounds on Monday, April 25, 2005 6:45 PM Well, if they'd just put the trailers on flatcars, they wouldn't have this problem now would they? http://fleetowner.com/news/topstory/driver_shortage_earning_quarter_truck_042505/ Seriously, it's a waste of a scarce resource (truck drivers) to have one person drive 21 tons of apples from Washington State to New York City; and then drive all the way back. Over and over again. Sooner or latter some one with the power to change things will figure that out. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply « First«-10123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails.
Originally posted by Muddy Creek Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:02 AM I also wanted to state that there are good people out there. If you happen to find a company that runs the way you like to with a support staff (Shop, dispatch, safety etc) that allows you to run good miles in a decent rig while making some money each week then you have the best trucking can offer. I have seen this and can say that these folks have my loyalty and desire to "run the extra mile" just so. Railroad Engineers from my view along with other railroad men does not seem to endure such trials as we drivers did. When the hog law (Hours) is up, they take the reverser in th pocket and head for bed. I forgot to mention parking, sometimes your hours may be up but you might have to drive an extra 100 miles or so looking over what is left of "Legal" parking spots in certain hours of day and regions. I have had seen the "Hell ship" and also the good life on the road, I would not change it for anything. But I advocate change towards a better situation for everyone involved in moving freight. Shippers and Recievers are virtual gods when it comes to "whistling" up a truck to carry widgets somewhere. Companies from the shop boy all the way up to the stockholders are at risk if they cannot keep the Shippers and Recievers happy. Take the M and M candy bar you eat. They are made by MM Mars and Kraft. If you are told to haul a load of candy, the first thing you need to do is clean up, do laundry and get your rig washed and trailer washed out. Any odor anywhere is grounds for "refusal" to load. If you happen to get into the cycle for running a series of loads over several weeks for the same set of shippers and recievers... that can be really good for building trust in you as a driver and you in the dispatch as everyone "In the groove" Being in the groove is where it's as good as it gets. Be strong of heart and morals and stay away from temptation. Finally: "KEEP THAT LEFT DOOR SHUT!!!" dont stop at every little place. You would be surprised how much that 15 minute coffee break can do to your schedule. C ya all on the flip side. Reply Edit edbenton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack 2,011 posts Posted by edbenton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:38 AM I have to agree with both High Iron and passengerfan on this issue. I drove 5 years until my medical card was revocked. I personally have had to run so hard it is not funny. 44 hours Salinas Ca to the midwest solo. Made the run so the boss could keep the account for Wal-Mart adn my dispatcher stood up for me and gave me a day off to rest. Got a call that day from our saftey director saying he was going to fine me for HOS probelms. I called and talked to personal and the owner of the company needless to say the bosses told the saftey director to SHOVE IT WHERE THE SUN DON"T SHINE. All I have to say is shippers and recivers need to be held responsible for all loading and unloading of freight. At least at the companies I drove for he could hire lumpers to unload and load if needed our trucks. Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY. Reply passengerfan Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Central Valley California 2,841 posts Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:11 AM Retired after 28 years in the trucking industry and have seen tons of drivers come and go. It is not an industry that is easy on homelife, nor is it a way to get rich quick or even slowly. But if one works hard stays honest and gives it hisor her best they will make a good living. The companies that are constantly advertising for drivers will always be advertising for drivers and the reason is its the way they treat the drivers they have. Go to work for the right companies and they treat drivers honestly and fairly. I order many things via the internet today and most ship either parcel post or UPS. Those that ship via UPS give you a tracking number and you can watch the progress of your package as it crosses the country to you. Don't know of any railroads that can pin a carload down as accurately as UPS does and be correct every time. No wonder UPS continues to grow while other trucking companies seem to disappear after only a few years. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:20 AM HighIron Working as a traffic manger for companies that used long distance trucking service, I saw the genisis of the problems that you speak of. After deregulation, shippers and receivers started dumping work on drivers with no extra compensation. Getting something for nothing became the name of the game. I wouldn't play that game and I actually once told a boss to shove it, leaving the job with due notice, but no good immediate job prospects for myself. The companies that I worked for that weren't totally obsessive about squeezing the last dime out of the truckers actually received better service and with enough new business coming from the good customer service probably actually made more money. Railroading can be a tough gig, but the last I heard, the train crews do get paid for the work they do, and nobody winks at the hours of service limits, or tells them to get to the destination terminal at a certain time, even if they have to exceed speed limits "But don't get caught". Don't balme you for getting out. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:50 PM It is the way of life that are killing some of the drivers. When I started late in the 1980's you actually had about 10 days to get to the West coast and life was pretty routine and decent with time each day for showers, food etc.. With the qualcomm system cutting out the loss of information, increases efficency and other major and truly valued improve ments such as break down recovery etc etc etc. Bottom line. PAY. A reefer driver probably will have to wait 40 hours each week. That is unpaid time. It is also time that is "Up-time" that is spent being awake and under pressure to get loaded and rolling. When it is actually loaded and ready the driver is too worn out, hungry, tired, dirty etc to make the run especially in remote areas. Drivers who cannot manage the money bury themselves on comchecks. Drivers who have kids, family and other life issues are sometimes caught between trucking and coming home to anything that may see McBuck to a factory for some. Dispatch promises home time. Baloney. You can expect to be dispatched anywhere BUT your home town for at least 4 weeks. I have been gone for as long as 6 months. Sickness, Sexual deviancy, drugs and problems in bad areas cut down on healthy and safe drivers. Out moded laws and very very deep rooted ideas such as "Wink wink" regarding log books, pretrips, loads around scales known to be open etc etc... Anything that interferes with keeping the wheels rolling (Including sleep) are "Managed" to the point of breaking down of basic human decency and desire to make a good living. Keep in mind that drivers are financially liable personally for many things while on the job. If they cannot meet the schedules on time, there are 50 more coming out of orientation rested and eager to put in the 90 day wonder. If I sound too negative that is only because I took a stand against most of these problems and with my spouse formed a good team that ran 24/7 only to see insufficient time in a day to get everything done that needs to be kept up. Last and not the least is the environment on trash C.B. Prositute hunting, drug running and other activities that threaten a driver's personal welbeing and health. The last 5 years of my trucking my radio was off unless leading a convoy thru bad weather. That I know how to do. ANd my personal favorite..... Drive 1200 miles over 24 hours arrive just in time to meet the appointment (Saving your job until the next run) only to be told you need to unload 1400 cases in 130 degree trailer heat in less than 5 hours so that they can clear the dock for shipping. If you dont get unloaded in that time period then you will be sent away to wait until another appointment is made (usually several days later) totally wrecking your month away from home. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 9:15 PM Okay, let's take your Washington apples example. Let's say the truckload originates in Wenatchee. Since there is no TOFC service out of Wenatchee (but there is COFC), the truckload would have to be a containerload. Already there's a problem, because domestic trailers are preferred to domestic containers by typical truckload shippers. Or the trucker can drive to the Puget Sound to access the TOFC terminal, or drive over to Spokane. Then you hope there is not too much of a terminal delay, since apples are a time sensitive commodity. If the load originates in the Yakima Valley, the trucker can only choose the Puget Sound or Spokane options. I'm not sure BNSF even handles trailers in Spokane anymore. Ditto for UP at Hinkle. Knowing BNSF like I do, I expect they would prefer the apples be shipped by refrigerated car rather than trailer or container. The bottom line is that both BNSF and UP have made it such a hassle to do business with, most shippers simply brush off the TOFC and COFC shipping option unless the load will move by dedicated refrigerated car. The real truck driver shortage is in the agricultural areas, not the urban areas. And most ag shipments out of the PNW and Northern Tier are heading west or southwest, not east. That's a shorthaul to the railroads, and they'd rather not be bothered with shorthaul economies of scale. The time factor favors the truckers on these regional corridors, so driver shortage or not, most such shipments will continue to use the highways rather than the rails. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 25, 2005 7:07 PM Agreed. (Other than your example of shipping Washington apples to a state that should be able to produce al the apples it could ever use if it wasn't cutting down orchards for McMansions.) On the other hand, most long distance truckers aren't heading back home empty, are they? I thought that was the beauty of trucking, that there is always a paying load bound for somewhere in your general destination. Wayne Reply Edit greyhounds Member sinceAugust 2003 From: Antioch, IL 4,371 posts Truck Driver Shortage Posted by greyhounds on Monday, April 25, 2005 6:45 PM Well, if they'd just put the trailers on flatcars, they wouldn't have this problem now would they? http://fleetowner.com/news/topstory/driver_shortage_earning_quarter_truck_042505/ Seriously, it's a waste of a scarce resource (truck drivers) to have one person drive 21 tons of apples from Washington State to New York City; and then drive all the way back. Over and over again. Sooner or latter some one with the power to change things will figure that out. "By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that. Reply « First«-10123 Join our Community! 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"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
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