Truck Driver Shortage

[passengerfan]

Funniest incident I remember was my second year as an O/O I hired a driver to run double with me for the busy summer months. He worked in the warehouse and every couple of years he got the itch to run the road again. Pete was a lot of fun to run double with. We were westbound on I-80 one saturday morning running downhill toward Laramie from Cheyenne. Pete was in the sleeper and I was behind the wheel driving at the speed limit when I came to the first overpass and see two kids on top waving at the trucks I waved and just as I started under the overpass they either threw or kicked a bunch of rocks off.
The rocks took the right side windshield out and for probably the only time I can remember Pete had the sleeper curtains pulled or otherwise would have got a faceful of Glass. I was carrying a light load so slammed on the brakes and headed for the shoulder. Pete was out of the sleeper and I was running back up the shoulder toward the overpass when Pete decided to run diagonally across the field to catch the kids at the bottom of the Overpass. The kids at first started to run to the right then remembered there bikes were the other way so changed direction. About that time I yelled at a driver on the overpass to stop the boys. I looked for Pete running across the field just in time to see him vanish like the earth opened up and swallowed him.
The driver of the pickup on the overpass happened to be an off duty sheriff's deputy who stopped the boys and called the Larimie police on his police radio in his truck.
I turned my attention to finding Pete. Ibegan searching the area where he disappeared and sure enouch their was some broken wood and Pette down this dark hole yelling like a madman. The hole it turned out was a onetime outhouse and Pete was absolutely covered in you know what. The Fire department soon arrrived after the police who had the boys and there bikes in custody. The fireman through a rope to pete with the admonisment not to get it dirty. He tied it around his waist and the police and four firemen pulled him out of the once board covered outhouse remains.
I have never in my life seen anyone so covered in excrement as Pete was. The temperature was about sixty so he wasn't in any danger of freezing. The Police gave him a ride to town as there was no way I was letting him in the truck till he took a shower or two. The police gave him a blanket and took him to the jail where he took a shower and threw his clothes and the blanket away. I arrived in time for him to get dressed in a clean set of clothes that I got from the truck for him.
Everyone in the station was crying from laughing so hard and the two boys were scared. They were six and eight year old brothers sons of a local preacher. The police found a glass dealer who opened up on Saturday who just happened to have that particular piece of glass in stock I figure them being sons of a preacher was the only reason that dealer had that piece of glass in stock.
I'll bet the preacher got the price of that piesce of glass back in the next days sermon. For about the next month I sure had alot of fun relating the story to everyone at home and any truck stop we were stopped at. When Pete went back into the warehouse that fall the young guys would walk by for a few weeks and hold their noses, as they had all heard the story of what had happened to the Lead Warehouseman. I knew Pete for about another ten years and not once during that time did he ever get itchy feet to go on the road again. I kidded him that if I ever came into a little money and had the time I was going to have a sign made and placed next to Pete's hole simply saying "Watch Your Step" and sign it Pete. Everytime I went through Larimie for years after I always thought of Pete and that hole.

[Anonymous]

Trainees HAW HAW HAW.

Trainees are fun but you gotta train em. I had one turn up one day shaking with excitement as it was his first "real" delivery. We dead head 100 miles to get the load with him hanging over the driving wheel googled eyed and panting with the joy of driving a "Real" truck that actually ran well instead of the dirty and dusty school junkers he had. (Dont slobber all over my coffee mug!)

[edbenton]

High Iron have you ever heard of 2 drivers named Calafornia Shaker and Plum Crazy. I have met Plum Crazy in Oregan at the Burns Bros at exit 28 in Troutdale OR. He was headed back to AL the next day I did not have a load yet. I was talking to him and a IWX trainer trainee combo came in and the trainee was talking down about Cat engines and Peterbilts. Crazy looked him in the eye and told him watch your mouth before someone puts you in your place. The trainer saw who he was talking to and told him to shut his mouth. The trainee goes why should I no one can pass us. Plum Crazy looked him in the eye and them got a ticket out of his pocket from 1979 showing he was running 125 at the time. Then proceeded to tell the trainee I Still have the same truck so don't tell me I can't pass you BOY.

[jeaton]

I'll grant 4 hours and change, but to AVERAGE 100 seems a little over the top-so to speak. That suggests cruising at 105-110 to make up for the time our two when some four wheeler was hanging in the left lane. Unless, of course, good use was made of the median strip.

Speaking of speeding-this is an all car story-from back when one could cruise I-65 between Gary and Louisville at 10-15 over without slowing a lot for traffic. One day I am north of Lafayette and a 300-Z with Florida plates blows by me like it's home by sundown. A few miles down the road I go by him while he is having a chat with a state trooper. We go through the same drill between Lafayette and Indianapolis. I think at that point the lesson is learned, but nooo. In the middle of Indianapolis, here he comes again. I past him and the state just south of Indy. After that stop, I don't see him again, but I suppose he was asked to hang around for a while.

Jay

[Anonymous]

Crazy? He he.

I have met some drivers who have nerves that dont work and no way of feeling any kind of emotion. Some of these boys.. whew.. they can drive. Just aint make trucks fast enough for them.

*Imitates forrest gump.."That's all I have to say about that"

Why?

I dont want to tell stories of two lane backroads at 80+ in areas marked 35. I was pretty heavy on the hammer back then, but these fellas.. they make me feel like a little boy wanting to play in the big leagues.

I hope they are still alive today. They are the ones who you hear of driving backwards down mt eagle with a bad steer pump and fading brakes.

Walk into any truckstop, the speed kings are the ones gulping coffee and vibrating in their booths craning necks this way and that while muttering about slow service.

he he.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

This has been an entertaining thread...but 4 hours from Streator to Omaha is hard to believe.

ed

I was going to say. I make Streator to Omaha (via Ottawa and I-80) at least 400 miles.

Jay

Oh, I pretty much believe it - give or take a few ticks of the clock.

Reading this thread has convinced me that SOME truck drivers are freaking crazy. I believe the guy was running 100 mph down I-80. With his son in the tractor. Calling over the CB radio for other truckers to get out of his way.

Roll on Big Mama.

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

This has been an entertaining thread...but 4 hours from Streator to Omaha is hard to believe.

ed

I was going to say. I make Streator to Omaha (via Ottawa and I-80) at least 400 miles.

Jay

[passengerfan]

Fastest truck I ever owned did 68mph unless I kicked it out of gear and had atailwind on a 5% grade downhill . Then it could get real scary.
All kidding aside never had a need to go any faster than that and glad I never bought a trauck that would run anyfaster than that.
My proudest achievement was running a 320 Cummins for 641,000 miles and never had a wrench on the engine except to change oil. It was starting to burn a little oil so I traded it in. In the years I owned that truck a International Cab Over I never had a major problem with it. I learned very early as an O/O that if you look after the truck it will look after you. Regular service and preventive maintenance will go a long way in keeping it on the road and dependable. And that is how you make maney as an O/O or even as a company driver assigned a regular unit. I never worked for any company that paid me for downtime so never had any downtime that could be laid at my doorstep. By the same token I never went to work for a company after I quit as an O/O that supplied me with a tractor that was junk. If they operated good trucks and you could tell by the way they looked when they went down the road. Or if you were in a truckstop and saw the driver wiping down the chrome wheels etc. while waiting for his next load you pretty well knew he worked for a good company.
Drivers if you are thinking of changing companies after getting some miles under your belt look at rigs running down the highway and talk to other drivers it doesn't take long to find out the companies that care about their drivers and those that don't. It might take awhile to get on with a good company but keeping your driving record clean sure helps.

[MP173]

This has been an entertaining thread...but 4 hours from Streator to Omaha is hard to believe.

ed

[edbenton]

High Iron my father drove in the good ole days also. The hammer lane used to be called the Monfort lane since Monfort had some of the fastest rigs out there. My dad was driving for a small company in IL at the time hsi truck was a Freightliner cabover 1693 Cat mated to a 4-4 tranny and 3 speed rears. I know this i true since I went with him on this trip so I could get some time wth dad. We were westbound on I-80 in Iowa headed for Omaha he got on the radio and told 2 Monforts to clear the left lane cause he had to go they said " there is not a truck out there that can pass us." My dad floored that old Cat and let her scream we went from Streator IL to Omaha in 4 hrs total time and were reloaded and on our way back in 5.

For those who don't know about truck engines. The Caterpiller 1693 was a six clyinder turbocharged engine that could put out unlimted horsepower for an unlimted time. I actually got to drive one and that thing would pull like you would not belive. My dads bosses son tried to drive that same truck and broke the driveshaft by dumping the clutch and flooring it in 1st gear.

[Anonymous]

Granted, those polish rigs must have a hell of a ratio in the last 5 gears.

And a hell of a dyno to withstand that kind of energy. I have ridden rigs maxed out on the dyno and the roaring, bucking and shaking requires you to be secured to the seat or you will be thrown about.

To you saftey belt people I recall the dyno man had a remote control set in his hands controlling the dyno.

100 mph in any vehicle presents three problems.

1- Human reaction time actually is too slow to be useful. (Racing in NASCAR etc requires relative speeds between vehicles to be close to 0 allowing manuvering.

2- The mass of the total gross weight of the truck demands it to carry it straight ahead; introduce any kind of curve from the plane of straight path will induce rolling your rig. THAT is not the way you want to die.

**In a severe roll over, the cab will turn over itself many times as it chops and breaks any people inside bit by bit over several seconds. Injuries are quite mortal and the affected will live long enough to regret the speed.

3- Tires. They can handle the speed for a while. Eventually heat builds up that cannot be dissapated. Heat destroys tires. The number two problem with tires is objects. Any kind of object will interfere with the physical integrety of a tire that is being made to carry thousands of pounds at speeds (RPM's) 30-50% beyond safe design limits.

And finally the brakes. They are capable of stopping you one time from such high speeds. Be prepared to fight resulting fires.

[rvos1979]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

The bulk of trucks are governed today.

Some run max 55 (UGH), others 65 or so a few will break 70 as a sort of a "Benefit" to those who have performed very well in service.

One company I was with advertised the speed governed at 65 and GPS in real time revealed that they actually governed at 63 as a sort of a secret.

When I went to tech school in IL I was told this story by one of my instructors.

When this instructor worked in a shop, he got to set up trucks for delivery. This involved running the trucks on the dyno to check operation and speed settings. This dyno had a maximum speed of 100MPH.

One day, he was checking out trucks that were going to a Poli***rucking outfit somewhere, these were set up with 18-speed trannies and something like 3.23:1 rear gear ratios.

He told us that when he maxed out the dyno, he had five gears to go before he hit top gear in the transmission.

I don't know about y'all, but over 100MPH in a semi seems pretty hairy to me.

Randy

[Anonymous]

The bulk of trucks are governed today.

Some run max 55 (UGH), others 65 or so a few will break 70 as a sort of a "Benefit" to those who have performed very well in service.

One company I was with advertised the speed governed at 65 and GPS in real time revealed that they actually governed at 63 as a sort of a secret.

You can open a Cat 3046 wide up and burn about 20 gallons an hour. You can do it going straight up hill until you get to the top or you can fly at 120 in Lordsburg NM. Your choice.

But with the computers placed onto trucks and monitored by satellite, it is nigh impossible for a trucker to break his company's software-imposed speed limit.

Split speed limits make the problem even worse stuffing traffic chock full as faster trucks try to pass the slower ones *Swift.. cough cough...

The speeds I wrote of reaches back to the day before Satellite monitoring and software managed engines. I speak of engines that were high on horsepower and tourque with the express purpose of getting that load across mountains in a timely manner or.... zipping along the flats.

In the day getting that load moved fast was all that mattered. Fuel was "Cheap" compared to the profits to be made if you could execute 3 deliverys in a week instead of just two.

An example.

One company who I will not name to protect them had R Model Macks. They were extremely fast. The only monitoring was the old speed clocks that recieved circular peices of paper every morning. At the end of the day they were turned in. The problem was most of the devices had a ... extra part that limited thier effectiveness.. literally.

Police officers were not permitted to view these speed cards as they were strictly company property. No matter what the offence may be.

Way back in the day there was a Cement plant near the Pentagon that had 5 silos ready for 5 bulk tank trucks. 6 would be dispatched there as a initial run.

To the driver being able to cross the legion bridge on the Md Va line in the far left lane at 90+ with the first 4 trucks behind you while the 5th and last lags behind. Horsepower was king. The last one to arrive at this plant got to sit for a unproductive hour and half.

Each load pays about $65 dollars. The first 5 unloads within 2 hours and by the end of the day the fastest of us would have delivered perhaps 6 loads. The last and the slowest might see 4-5 loads a day.

At the end of the week out of the top 5 drivers to that one plant alone the paycheck would reflect the extra load per day... close to 400 dollars gross extra. If you were assigned to this one plant it literally paid to be very fast.

Of course the company earned the revenue off the extra loads. The fuel is cheap. These R models will do 5 loads on one small tank of fuel. For a extra load it was a matter of 20 minutes grabbing a second full load that afternoon. (Making it possible to get even more loads in the next day without having to fuel)

Those who did not stop ran out of fuel.. those are the ones that dont stay with this one company too long. You especially DONT run out of fuel while blowing concrete powder up to the silo 100 feet above.

In time Law Enforcement, New Laws banning trucks from the left two lanes in D.C. beltway, increased traffic, stricter monitoring of speed rules within the company and assorted selective removal of the worst offenders to keep the others in line eventually solved the issue of extremly fast trucks.

The commuters that went to work in DC were very fast and unforgiving in thier BMW's but they get kind of nervous when a Mack R model bores down on thier rear bumber with obviously greater power to the wheels than they are willing to go at 80+ mph. In the far left lane to boot.

In time they see us coming they automatically moved over to the right.

As I said, those times were Happy times. 4 figure paychecks with the prospect of a good year were literally possible with the extra speed and power.

The cost?

I think we lost three loads, 5 people and perhaps several hundred thousand dollars worth of revenue in one year. That is unacceptable in today's climate of saftey first and so called staying on the line.

I think back to that one year. We could easily have supported that one ready mix plant every day that year with just 5 trucks and 5 loads each per day legally in every way.

But.. too many people were driven by greed for the profits, good wages and other reasons for any sort of controls to work in the day.

Technology as shown in computers, satellite monitoring and cell phone, highway cameras against aggressive driving etc etc etc etc.... has put a stop to the happy time.

For that I thank god because we are saving lives and revenue by slowing down. This I speak as a voice of someone who lived thru the early 20's with reckless speed and disregard for anything but horsepower and tire traction.

Slow down, ride easy and be safe. You will not be as tired and still make close to the same wages that week.

[Anonymous]

After reading some of these 18-wheeler stories I think some drivers need to be reminded that a tractor's fuel consumption goes up by 1% for every mile per hour over 60. In other words, a truck running at 100 mph uses 40% more fuel for the same distance as a truck running at 60 mph. Now I wonder where the extra money comes from? Especially for O/Os.

[route_rock]

Giggles as I read through the postings. This will tell the age of some of the guys here after reading Wolf Creek I couldnt get this out of my head" Wolf Creek pass way up on the great divide trucking on down to the other side!" C. W. Mcall getting to the bottom with a 14 foot high trailer and chickens [:D] Ohh man some of hte stories here ( sandstone is one) gives me shivers. Saluda almost forgot about it! Rain on Saluda and NC drivers acting like they know it all. Shee***ime for bed ya'all keep the bugs off ya glass the bears off ya @$$ this here is Casey Jones and I am back quiet.(RB) 10 points for what the (RB) is [:D]

[Anonymous]

I recall some of the eastern drivers who hit the rockies for the first time.

They return to the east and sit on the coffee line with arms **This wide and **That high telling stories of grades so steep that the 5th weel would throw the pin *(and trailer) completely off.

I think they do this to scare the tenderfeet.

I was a company driver for many years and a trainer in later times. Finally back to company driver with dreams of O/O glory and gingerbread and all of that stuff. I had a good run but got out of it.

I think part of the problem was "You want this load WHERE?! and HOW SOON?!" it was not fun for me in the later years. Even as a team 24/7 with the wife we were just barely able to keep up with dispatch bailing out all of those poor tired single drivers who just aint what they needed to make that load on time.

I recall talk of being sent into central america or up in the far north on the ice lakes... I think I rather stay jest right here at home in the good old 48 =)

Im back out!

[Anonymous]

Started out with Swift as apprentice driver, after 9 mos bought own tractor, leased on to various companies (incl SP trucking subsidiary) for 5 yrs. Finally got my own authority and bought a step deck, a 53 van and a 53 reefer all used. Got to know shippers and good brokers now I'm out only about 200 days per yr and still clear $60k. Have seen nearly every rail line in the country-wonderful way to pursue hobby, do everything myself, no boss, not much hassle, learned all the places to stay away from. Can't imagine doing anything else. But to do it this way you've got to have a good cash stake to start out with.

[passengerfan]

Arbfbe
Absolutely correct Lookout pass it was . Guess memory plays tricks on me sometimes.
Mullan Pass is where the old NP line runs guess I get confused.
I have traveled many roads in the east over thirty years of driving and have seen the look on many eastern drivers faces the first time thy encountered the Rockies say on I-70 out of Denver, or better yet the first time they encounter Rogers Pass on TC1. Longest load I ever hauled was from Canadian Forces Base Esquimalt to Candain Forces Bas St. John Newfoundland. had to ride two ferries one from Vancouver Island at Sidney to Tawassen znd the other was from North Sydney Nova Scotia to Port Aux Basque Newfoundland. Literally from one end of the Trans- Canada to the other. When I ran Alcan for six yeras loaded one special load in Houston and delivered it to Anchorage pretty hard to beat that for a North -South distance run.

[ajmiller]

I-78 ends where it connects to I-81 about 20 miles east of Harrisburg. I don't ever travel between Harrisburg and Scranton, so I'm not that familiar with I-81 between I-78 and I-80, but I assume it's probably similar to I-80.

I think that I-78 in Berks county predates much of the interstate system and the road seems a lot older than most interstate highways. I think it was built as an upgrade to US-22 in the 1950's and connected with the Lehigh Valley Thruway in Lehigh and Northampton Counties which was also designated as US-22 and built in the 1950's. Later I-78 was connected to I-81 in Lebanon County, but US-22 still follows its original route in Lebanon and Dauphin Counties.

For a long time, I-78 had a gap between Fogelsville PA and Phillipsburg NJ. Drivers could follow US-22 on the Lehigh Valley Thruway from Fogelsville to Easton PA, but at Easton the expressway ended and US-22 followed ordinary streets through Phillipsburg until the expressway resumed at I-78 in NJ.

I remember that there was a lot of debate as to whether US-22 should be expanded to six lanes and carry I-78 or that a separate highway for I-78 should be built to the south of the Lehigh Valley. Finally in the mid 1980's they built the separate route to the south.

A few years ago they extended PA-33 to connect to I-78 between Bethlehem and Easton. PA-33 is a north-south 4 lane highway that orginally connected I-80 at Stroudsburg PA to US-22 near Bethlehem. It took over ten years from the completion of I-78 to get the route 33 extension started.

[arbfbe]

passengerfan,

Likely you were on Lookout Pass on the MT/ID border. Mullan Pass is near Helena and the highway goes over McDonald Pass anyway. Mullan is dirt road only and closed by drifts at the top during the entire winter, generally reopens in June.

[Anonymous]

South Mountain.. that's it. A small mountain but in bad weather something to think about.

Is that I-78/I-81 STILL in bad shape? UGH! What's going on with you PA folks? I personally witnessed all of the highway between Harrisburg East all the way to Scranton stripped down to bare dirt, repacked and a new interstate built (and relocated in some areas) twice.

That is twice.

Arkansas had bad crumbly concrete. too. We went ahead and stripped down to bare dirt, poured 3 feet of gravel, some concrete in some areas and 2 feet of apshalt on top of that.

Nice smooth ride right now. But 10 years from now I think we will have to rebuild it again.

In history Germany built autobahns that are still in use today on some sections. They know how to build highways. You also dont see Airport runways under repairs either and those airliners are way heavier than we truckers ever will be.

Build em big and strong the first time and have done with it.

I am sorry for a bit of a rant here, but I have seen I think, in the last 16 years sections of our interstate system torn down and rebuilt once or twice. Maybe Im wrong but those schnieder eggs are still in some places 10 years or more.

[ajmiller]

Is that the section of I-78 that also carries PA-309? That goes up and over South Mountain which borders the southern side of Allentown and Bethlehem. It doesn't seem that bad in a car which may be why I didn't think of it.

I know of that gigantic Nestle warehouse. It's in Fogelsville just west of Allentown.

I-78 is kind of hilly, but I think I-80 is more hilly. I-81/78 between Harrisburg and Allentown is not a very nice ride though. The road is a bit old and crumbly. I drove home to my parents that way last weekend and got stuck in traffic where the road is under construction near the Berks/Lehigh county border. When I get to Allentown, I usually take US-22 instead of I-78 since my parents house is north of the Allentown/Bethlehem city area.

By the way, I mentioned US-322 through Lewistown Narrows in a previous post on this thread, and it's still under construction. Long traffic delay there, and it looks like it will take years for them to expand the highway to four lanes. Now, I did travel through there late on a Friday afternoon, so that may have contributed to the traffic density, but I think I will avoid that route and stick to I-80.

[Anonymous]

I-78 .. there is a small hill that is rather long in grade from the east up and over before you hit the big one near the Jersey line.

Keep in mind that the interstate is somewhat south of town. If memory serves there is a Nestle's warehouse on the flat section just before that grade.

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

In a winter storm one afternoon to the East of Allentown, I found myself confronted by the sight of the 3 mile long westbound downgrade shining with ice that was so.... slippery smooth all the way down. This was with a empty flatbed and a Mack CH model rig daycab. I made it down but thank god I was a young man as the stress level was very high that day. I think I took 10 years off my life on that hill that icy day.

Which highway was that east of Allentown? I'm trying to picture where this hill is, but nothing sticks out in my memory.

[passengerfan]

Leaving Spokane late one afternoon at the start of a snow storm I was tired after loading all day so thought I would drive for awhile. Heading east I pulled to the top of Mullan Pass and took the offramp which is right on the Idaho/Montana state line. The after turning onto the overpass I backed up to the be clear of the on ramps as this was dead end road that went maybe 100 feet. I parked crawled into the sleeper and before I knew it was fast asleep.
When I awoke it was daylight and the truck was practically buried in snow. Aftter answering natures call I found the snow was about twelve to fourteen inches deep and crunchy. I crawled up in the cab and filled out my comic book then started down the eastbound on ramp. The first thing I noticed is I was the only truck on the highway in fact I was the only traffic on the highway. As I approached Superior about an hour later I saw the Montana State troopers had a eastbound roadblock. When the spotted me they waded across the highway and flagged me down. The first thing he asked me was where was I coming from as the highway had been closed for the last eight hours. When I told him I was on the top of Mullan he said he was surprised as usually the Idaho troopers or Montana troopers run any drivers away from where I was parked when the highway was closed or going to be closed. His next question was did I see anyone else on my way to Superior I said no he said have a nice day and I was on my way east once again headed for Minneapolis.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

In Upstate NY we don't need no stinking chains!!

LC

Perhaps because Pennsy used up all the Hills that God had in supply when he created this world he he.

=)

In a winter storm one afternoon to the East of Allentown, I found myself confronted by the sight of the 3 mile long westbound downgrade shining with ice that was so.... slippery smooth all the way down. This was with a empty flatbed and a Mack CH model rig daycab. I made it down but thank god I was a young man as the stress level was very high that day. I think I took 10 years off my life on that hill that icy day.

As bad as that one was I was to see even worse ice in the deep south near the end of the 90's. The kind that renders a foot of beach sand irrevelant. (They used to sand bridges to give you a chance to cross down there in the south.)

The previous night I slept at a reciever on top of a hill. The wind would blow very hard and you can feel and see the entire rig shift a inch or so to the side with every gust. I figured if I woke up the next morning in the ditch that is ok because I arrived at the customer on time with very valuable freight that they cannot work without.

Be safe and good luck! See you all on the flip side.

[Anonymous]

In Upstate NY we don't need no stinking chains!!

LC

[Jack_S]

QUOTE: [i]
Often thought when I was driving that California required chaining up many times when it wasn't really necessary.

If you've ever seen how native SoCal drivers of cars drive in rain (they speed up for flooded sections for one), you'd understand why the CHP gets paranoid about weather conditions that would go unnoticed in the Northeast.

When I lived in NY I was an avid skier and I never even had snow tires on my 2 VWs or my two SAABs. My sister lives in northern Vermont and I don't think she has ever used chains. Of course she drives a Jeep Liberty which sure helps.

Jack

[edbenton]

Another grade that will make the butthole pucker is Parlay in Utah headed for SLC on I-80. I almost lost one in winter headed west on the 6% strech and got lucky. My engine failed and i lost the Jakes. Another one in UT is echo canyon narrow and watch for the g****** rocks falling.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

So, when is enough enough! I'm a LTL driver - got good medical, retirement...

Jim

I'm ever so glad you are proud of being an overpaid delivery man. Not what I'd want for my son.

LC

Well, I'm so proud of all of my sons. But, one became an overpaid deliveryman just like his DAD. Without any help from me, he got a LT company to train him, after his servitude, he found a Monday through Friday job, during daylight hours which pays him $50,000 bucks a year with good benefits, thats company paid health and welfare, not bad for a young man who for one reason or other didn't follow the college track.

Like I said, he did it with no help from me!

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

So, when is enough enough! I'm a LTL driver - got good medical, retirement...

Jim

Enough of you was enough when you made your first post. GET LOST.

LC

I can certainly understand your sentiment about GETTING LOST. Maybe I should GET LOST. But, I think what I really need to do is become a part of this online community. So, I'll end the salty tongue the glebe remarks and the pot-shoots.

I'll endeavor to be an asset. It will not be easy, but I'll work towards that...Not positive or educated postings to a thread, call me down!

I feel good posting this within this thread

Jim

[Anonymous]

Them younger drivers ought not to go that far west.

They get lonely and bored being so far from nothing.

Stick em on the North east runs. If they can survive for a year accident free, then I send em west as much they want to.

[passengerfan]

Yep tried 14A had deliveries for Cody, Powell, Sheridan and Gillette all scheduled for the same day. I made it and it was my first and last time I ever ran that highway I guess the boss took pity on me. Being the Senior driver the boss use to send me to all the armpits of the Western U.S. his argument was I had more experience therefore he didn't have to worry if I was on the load. My argument was how are the younger drivers ever going to get the experience if you don't send them on these routes. I liked it better when his dad was sending out the loads he agreed that all drivers will have to learn sooner or later so it might as well be sooner. I was sorry when he retired. But I must admit i did have one favoirite somewhat regulkar route and that was starting in Washington State and deliverinmg down the Oregon and California Coasts to L A. Another of the nicer routes was along the Columbia River and making the deliveries all the way to Salt Lake City. But probably the most enjoyment was the summer i ran cback and forth for the entire summer between Sparks and Las Vegas NV. Our company was one of the largest transporters of Slot Machines out of Las Vegas so got to see all 48 states and even some of the Canadian Provinces while employed their. The best part is we ran empty back to Vegas for then next load and got paid the same as if we were loaded.

[Anonymous]

Any of you guys ever try U.S. Highway 14A between Sheridan and Lovell Wyoming? When we were kids on a family vacation back in 1970 my dad pulled a trailer over that road. The signs said "No Trucks" so we should have taken notice, I guess. Three hours, three screaming kids and one screaming mom later, we finally made it into Lovell with some bent trailer parts in tow. On the plus side, I got to see my only CB&Q train near Lovell (it was right before the merger).

[Anonymous]

There is an arizona scale house with a picture of a semi trailer lost on a mountain curve at near 8,000 foot from someone trying to by pass it...

Was this the road passengerfan?

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan

Probably tried it myself . I unloaded X-ray equipment at Edwards Air Foirce Base one friday and found I did not have enough fuel to get to LA so found out their was no place to get diesel in the Lancaster Palmdale area i pulled in to a home heating oil agent and asked if he could spare enough diesel to get me to LA he said better than that i'll fill ypur tanks and charge it to the California Highway Patrol who are getting there tank filled in the morning at there regional headquarters. I paid him for what the meter showed no fuel taxes or sales taxes of any kind. He was right it was the cheapest fuel I ever bought in California and I wonder if he really did bill the home oil to the CHP.

Yeah that's the same stuff only he found it in the southern part of Rochester when he ran out and yes it was true cheaper mainly because it was home heating oil with a different tint or coloring in it.

[passengerfan]

Might also suggest if you want a hair raising experience with a big rig try alternate 89 from Prescott to Sedona. First and only time up their was in the middle of the night and the signs said no trucks. But rather than turn around and turn at Prescott and take the truck route I guess it was my bull headedness or maybe stupidity or maybe both I kept going. It probably was a good thing it was about two in the morning when i descended as I never meant a car on the entire descent and it was just as well. I took the entire highway and watched my doughnut wheeled trailers rub the guard rails as i negotiated the tightest curves I have ever seen. When I got to Sedona where my Morning delivery was I was shaking to much to crawl in the sleeper for some much needed rest. In the morning when they were unloading the Grocery Store Check stands and Produce tables one of the grocery truck drivers I was talking to said it was a good thing they didn't catch me on that highway as the fine was 500.00. As I weaved my way through Cottonwood that early AM even the local Police car was parked and in bed where anyone with any sense would have been. Can't say I'm sorry I no longer drive trucks but today I don't think I would have attempted that little drive.

[Anonymous]

Pshaw... that is pretty good for mountian driving passengerfan.

I heard stories about a place called "Salt Lick" which is down in Arizona. I have had it described as a pass so dangerous that your "Inside" trailer wheels are rubbing against the broken rock wall on a curve while your tractor's outside dual wheels are hanging over open space that spans thousands of feet. As you drove you had to hang out the window and look at your left steer to make sure you did not lose the pavement.

I dont know if this was a story designed to scare non mountain driving folks white or not but legends have a kernel of truth.

I personally had to a dangerous drive at a quarry in the Northeast. They had a rock bridge that reached the exit gate at the plant. This bridge is nothing more than a spacer between two seperate quarries that have been worked on since America became a nation or so they say...

On that bridge there is hundreds of feet drop on either side. It is just 2 feet wider than a tractor trailer's wheels. On the pavement is painted a 1 foot wide yellow line. There are gaurds at either end of this path which was several hundred feet long. These gaurds take your waiver and next of kin information and in some cases your last will and testament should you choose to provide one on a peice of scrap paper.

On signal you are allowed to take as much time as needed keeping the left steer tire on that yellow line. You are told that if your steer tire goes "Out of bounds" off that yellow strip you are going to die that day.

believe me, I saw nothing but yellow paint on that cracked and worn pavement. After I made that trip I stood at the other gaurdshack smoking a cigerette and appreciating how wonderful that day was.

The regulars who work or go in and out of the plant daily takes that bridge in stride. It was the outside drivers who deliver freight in there that were taken care of with special care.

[passengerfan]

If you want a rough Mountain pass to run I would suggest you eaterners try highway 160 across southern Colorado they have a pass down there called Wolf Creek and have seen it make grown men cry just driving an RV over that one. Got caught by a early fall storm and the trucks didn't even have their plows on yet Yes I Chained up and I probably would have put even more chains on if I had had more. Going westbound there is a very sharp curve at the bootonm of the long downgrade with what lokks to be a thousand foot drop if you miss this turn. Between my daughter, wife and Wolf Creek Pass I earned every gray hair on my head.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

Carload railroading sucks!

I once wrote a simple computer simulation of a carload system and it showed the system would (suprise) produce erradic delivery times, cars would pass each other in transit and arrive out of order. They would also bunch up.
Just like the real world.

There are too many "events" in loose car railroading - and each event has an opportunity for failure. And there's little anyone can do to fix reliability on the carload side.

Intermodal and unit trains work becuse they reduce the number of "events". Basically solid trains just run from origin to destination with intermediate handling (such as the cross town in Chicago) being done by truck.

Railroads can, and do, produce good reliable truck competivie service with their intermodal operations (UPS proves that). And the apples will some day find their way into double stack service.

Here is some data from the real loose car world. A car of acetic acid from a ???? in Bayport, TX to the then GATX tank farm in Wilmington, CA, if operating exactly according to schdule, would have experienced 132 events back in 1995 on this main line route. If the process performs correctly 95% of the time that means there is a miss 5% of the time. 132x5%=660%. Rail is cheap but you better have a lot of safety stock inventory in Wilmington.

[Anonymous]

There is a 76 off I-78 in Jersey about 7 miles this side of the PA line.

Parking problems that time. Cops were in force writing tickets. One trucker pulled out of the no parking I pulled into his spot. Walked into the restraunt while angry bear was writing one down the line.

Eat dinner and watch about 6 officers show up, and continued to eat dinner very slowly watching them across the road.

3 hours later I came out to the rig and all 7 were irate. They were very angry that they lost command of the english language. Between shouted gibberish reinforced by spittle I gathered that I will be:

1- Inspected
2- Rechecked
3- papers checked, load checked
4- weighed
5- ticketed
6- charged and hauled off to jail
7 billed for delay of law enforcement personel

and any number of dire problems ranging from casteration to the spanish inqusition.

Seeing both sides with doors open in the cab and several pairs of boots swinging as all of them fought thier way into the cab was one for the books. I didnt know that many could fit in at once.

$130 dollars later I headed on my way. I suppose it was worth it to just sit for 3 hours at dinner (and desert, conversta5tion coffee etc) while they waited.

[passengerfan]

Probably tried it myself . I unloaded X-ray equipment at Edwards Air Foirce Base one friday and found I did not have enough fuel to get to LA so found out their was no place to get diesel in the Lancaster Palmdale area i pulled in to a home heating oil agent and asked if he could spare enough diesel to get me to LA he said better than that i'll fill ypur tanks and charge it to the California Highway Patrol who are getting there tank filled in the morning at there regional headquarters. I paid him for what the meter showed no fuel taxes or sales taxes of any kind. He was right it was the cheapest fuel I ever bought in California and I wonder if he really did bill the home oil to the CHP.

[Sterling1]

I may not be a truck driver but my uncle is . . . been driving for years he's almost in his sixties

From a few of the stories he told some were as bad those mentioned above .

I'm not sure but I think he was based mainly in the Rochester NY area as a commercail trucker not interstate . . .

He had a certain story which he told that I won't mention here unless asked for it
It had something illegal to do with the fuel . . .

If there are any gov't types out in the trains forum . . . leave you don't want to hear this

By request only . . .

[Anonymous]

I'll indulge you a little bit on the terror in the hills.

I was told a story by a west virginia trucker one night. Here is what I remember of it...

I a-fixing to come across that dar sandstone. If you aint nevah seen dat sandstone you will someday. One night it was raining at the bottom and snowing at the top and fog in between. First thing I noticed was a bad wheel on the way to the truckstop near the line at a place called sulphur springs.

I see folks on the side saying bad wreck down there, they be souls seeking god tonight. I passed them seeing it aint dinner time yet and this rig has to go. Long grade towards the bottom the brakes start to smoke and fade. The more air I spent on the hot and hotter brakes the less stopping I had.

Shifting the cigar to the other side and seeing the big red low air light as the broken springs fell away in a shower of sparks... a CB call came in.. please mr. trucker stop your rig before you hit that wreck at the bottom on sulpher springs my family is still stuck in that car.

Wal.. Ive driven many a year and seen many a problem to be solved. This one jest calls for some sacrifice. No brakes, rig on fire, steepining grade and a failing engine from being over driven by the tranny to hold it down on the roadway. The broken concrete hammers at the wheel making it hard to hold the increasingly unstable rig.

The lights of the police, ambulance shows on the windshield in the glare of the fire behind my cab advancing towards me. I need to decide if I will go to the right and into the great river 300 feet below or to the left and hit the rocks off the side... what to do?? what to do..

As I hear the last pleas of the people moments before deciding my own fate I wake up in a load of sweat and fear. Thru the window can be seen the sulpher springs truckstop where drivers are filing into the restruant for breakfast on the faint dawn of a sunrise.

I suppose you know the story of sulphur springs... as I said if you see Sandstone get ready for the springs because it will get you someday.

[arbfbe]

Overpaid delivery drivers? By definition, if they were overpaid then there would be a drive surplus. Since there is such a shortage they are obviously under paid for the work and working conditions.

[Overmod]

Shades of the Wreck of the old 97:

I got to get past Atlanta as soon as I can tonight
I got to try to dodge the scales and stay out of Smokey's sight
But there's one big thing standin' like a nightmare in my way
I got to top Monteagle Mountain a little bit later today

Goin' down Monteagle Mountain on I-24
It's hell for a trucker when the devil's at your door
He'll tempt you and tell you come on let her roll
Cause the mountain wants your rig and trucker I want your soul

When I started down Monteagle the brakes just wouldn't hold
I knew I was in trouble and 'bout to lose control
The runaway ramp was waitin' I saw the warnin' sign
I said Lord help me make it have mercy on this soul of mine

Well I ploughed into that runaway ramp and I could feel that bigh truck groan
My life flashed right before my eyes and for a minute I thought I was gone
But when the smoke cleared I thanked God that I was still alive
Cause when there's a runaway on Monteagle some truckers don't survive

(Johnny Cash!)

Still. I have to think that PA route 115 going down into Wilkes-Barre (below the Turnpike extension exit) is one of the nastiest pieces of road in the East...

[edbenton]

High Iron I have to agree on monteagle that is the meanest SOB east of the Mississippi river. But nastiest one I ever ran has to be east on I-70 out of the IKE tunnel very long grade not steep but if you dont watch it it WILL BITE YOU IN THE *** . I had to come down it one time grossed out with good old sweet corn thank god for top ice on it kept the brakes cool truck I was in was a reginal truck and was not supposed to get west of Kanasas City. I had fun that run but at least when I got to the yard my regular tractor was fixed. My fini***rainee dropped the tranny out of it. I still don't know how he did it it was a Super 10 no going back thru the pattern.

[passengerfan]

Probably would never have happened in the west as most of the states have sanders out when the road starts to get slick.
Northern Ontario used salt when I drove don't know if they still do or not but the province of Ontario owned several large salt mines.
Salt works well down to about fifteen but doesn't do much for the enviroment. or wildlife I understand it damages even the hoofs of deer.
As the state of Nebraska redid sections of I-80 they would not use sand on the areas of new concrete for two years and put signs up warning drivers to that effect where the new concrete was laid. This apparently was done to assure the curing process.
In almost thirty years of driving big rigs I never found chains to be much help on ice and very early in my driving career made the decision when the roads were icy their was nothing in that trailer that was worth my life or anyone else's so I parked and found a motel until the conditions changed. In turn I was never late with a delivery because I always allowed myself extra time in the winter months. I never had a dispatcher get on my case for operating that way when I was an owner operator or when I drove for someone else. When the road was like a washboard from drivers with chains it was no time to be hauling glass showcases blanket wrapped. It was better to park which i did get a motel and wait it out. I don't remember it ever being more than twelve hours until the road was clear enough to travel. And the plows and sanders had worked their magic in that time frame. It would not have done any good to deliver a load of broken glass to a and damaged cabinets to a new store that was opening and would have to wait another six to eight weeks for showcases.
Advise I have for young drivers starting out can be summed up in one word Patience!

[Anonymous]

passengerfan, You just learned a secret in trucking.

Companies fire on sight for any number of rules if they are broken. So there is a little bit of "Juggling" so to speak to make the incident acceptable to the company.

If they could get them chains on there before a company official arrives then that driver might have a chance still.

I am going to tell you a story here. The point of the story is when to require chains.

Coming out of Knoxville several years ago into a light winter storm going west on I-40, there was a few inches of snow on the grass but none on the road. The higher we got into the plateau it turned to hard packed snow and eventually to a little ice as the humidty levels got wet.

I was the lead truck and we come around upgrade to a 40 degree bend that also increased in grade. 5 inches of packed snow turned to a patch of ice halfway thru the turn. The Rig stumbled and went into a tractor skid towards a jackknife while being pulled by gravity towards the median divider.

A authoritive yank on the steering wheel broke the skid and happened early enough before a fatal jack knife angle was reached.

Number two had the exact same behavior in my rear view mirror.... in the mean time....

Numbers 3 thru 8 all saw the first two of us slide and knew that curve is going to be a problem.

Number 3 slid and went off the road trying to stay out of the dreaded jackknife. Number 4 was a flat bed the last I saw of him was his trailer dragging the whole unit backwards into the divider and down into the ground as the driver used the last of his interlocked traction to keep the whole rig straight.

When it was over the interstate was blocked at that point. The drivers were NOT happy. No blame anywhere, just a icy patch on a compound curve.

This being in tennessee they really dont require chains like the western states do.

But if this happened in a western state, I believe the chain law would be placed into effect when the first semi (Me) started to spin out. That means the tires have reached thier limits of traction. From that point on all should have chain.

I hold that as long as you can walk on it, you can drive on it as ground pressure is very similar. But... if big trucks are looking for a place to chain up and or wait out the remainder of the storm... dont you be going out there in your little 4x4 or car.

Many a time I see doubles turned completely around in storms near chicago. Usually they would be chaining at that point because it is the only way to get traction.

Many a time I come across 7 mountains near state college without chain and see many drivers who wind up into the shoulder or barriers because they were in a hurry.

When your interlock is activated and you are plowing 2 feet of dry snow in 3rd at 8 mph... that is NOT the time to be concerned about arrival time or speed.

All this talk of mountain driving in winter should help you keep in mind that there are alot of drivers and very good trucks out there doing a dangerous job. To me mountain driving holds no fear as I go up or down them the exact same way every time. What I do fear is the man killing cold that reaches close to -90 (Including wind chill) some nights in the far northern states.

Eisenhower tunner is a hoot on I-70. But try Tuscacora or Allegheny in a roaring storm on the PA Turnpike sometime. I think the Alley is the one that has 7 miles of 5% eastbound and additional grades westbound combined with super elevation and wind chutes created by the mountains around you.

But Mount Eagle is the one that will get ya east of the mississippi.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

So, when is enough enough! I'm a LTL driver - got good medical, retirement...

Jim

When an individual decides that he/she has enough, that's when it's enough.

You can't decide what's enough for me, nor can I decide what's enough for you. It's a concept called "freedom" and/or "liberty".

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

So, when is enough enough! I'm a LTL driver - got good medical, retirement...

Jim

I'm ever so glad you are proud of being an overpaid delivery man. Not what I'd want for my son.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

So, when is enough enough! I'm a LTL driver - got good medical, retirement...

Jim

Enough of you was enough when you made your first post. GET LOST.

LC

[passengerfan]

Having myself been a driver for many years when each winter rolls around I sympathize with all the drivers running between Reno and Sacramento who have to chain up so many nights to get across. This winter has been particularly difficult do to the amount of snow that has fallen in the high Sierra's.
Remember one instance while travelining westbound on I-70 from Denver as I exited Eisenhower tunnel about halfway down the grade was an overturned tractor and set of doubles in the median. There were about four or five other rigs stopped and the drivers were clambering up the sides of the overturned trailers and all were putting chains on the two trailers and the tractor. About a month later when I returned to denver i remembered seeing the overturned trailers and the chains being installed. I asked what good would it do to put chains on an overturned tractor and set of doubles. I found out that the chain controls had been in effect when he started his discent and if the company finds out he did not have them on he gets suspended for thirty days but if the chains are on then nothing happens to the driver by the company they just mark it up as an accident. Apparently the Colorado troopers who know most of these company drivers would keep mum about wheteher the driver had chains on or not. I really thought it was funny that morning seeing everyone scrambling around on the overturned trailers putting on the chains.
Often thought when I was driving that California required chaining up many times when it wasn't really necessary.
Good thing trains aren't required to chain up imagine chaining up a 100 car freight to get over Donner. Ta Ta for now.

[Anonymous]

So, when is enough enough! I'm a LTL driver - got good medical, retirement...

Jim

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I dont see any value in the Van or reefer B trains except in ternimal to ternimal operation.

80% of grocery warehouses and industry docks will NEVER accomodate these things.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

There are quite a lot of b trains combinations hauling wood chips in Washington these days. The biggest advantage I see with this setup is the ease of backing them up. It's nearly impossible to do that with a converter dolly in between (although I have seen it done for short distances).

Chad,

I haven't seen the b-train combo used to haul wood chips yet, but I know it's possible. I live in an area of North Central Idaho where chip trucks by the hundreds are plying U.S. 95 down to the Potlatch pulp mill in Lewiston Idaho. I've seen a few drawbar pulled doubles hauling chips, but most are single 53' and 57' trailers. Maybe one reason they aren't using b-trains is that the unloading lifts may not be able to fit a 75' combo at once, and if the front trailer of a wood chip consist is dumped singly, there would have to be something over the 5th wheel to keep chips from plugging it up as they slide out.

I'm still waiting for someone to invent the b-train dry van combo, using an accordian-style connector between the boxes to make one basic trailer space. You can see such accordian-style connections used on some transit buses, so using them in tight cornering shouldn't be a problem. A dry van interior space of 68' in length and 5700 cubic feet, able to be backed to a dock and loaded at one time, could be a valuable time and effort saver.

I'm less convinced of translating the b-train design into current bi-modal technology. The need to use the tongue and pin connector between the trailers for rail transit conflicts with the need to keep space above the 5th wheel free for the second trailer while in highway mode.

[Anonymous]

Dave,

If you want to read the funny papers, you can't pass up on Transport Topics. Now this is a trade publication, and many articles really need to address the advertisers and sales, I understand that. But unlike trade publications of the past there is no editorial high ground here, its all sell-sell-sell.

From what I've seen, you got a good grip on the industry, HighIron2003ar is also very honest about the Truck_Load position of the industry.

You guys need to get them fellows at TT aligned with the real world!


Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

There are quite a lot of b trains combinations hauling wood chips in Washington these days. The biggest advantage I see with this setup is the ease of backing them up. It's nearly impossible to do that with a converter dolly in between (although I have seen it done for short distances).

Chad,

An additional advantage is there is one less veichle to register and pay taxes on, which in some states can be a big deal. Also the chain laws between a standard set of doubles with con gear and b trains might make a significat difference durring winter.

Depending on the equipment and famility with such, I can back a semi with dolly just about anywhere...But to back that semi with dolly-and trailer, NO from here...But, I've seen a handful of drivers back a rear box to a dock door located between spotted trailers.

The UPS driver handling the unsorted south pull out of MSC at Fernley, NV does it daily. A fellow that I worked with at Thrifty Drug durring the 1980s and now with Central can do it on comand, either over a dirt lot or paved lot.

Jim

[chad thomas]

There are quite a lot of b trains combinations hauling wood chips in Washington these days. The biggest advantage I see with this setup is the ease of backing them up. It's nearly impossible to do that with a converter dolly in between (although I have seen it done for short distances).

[Anonymous]

Dave,

Thank you for that great posting defining B trains. My only experience with them was seeing them operated by Canadian Freightways (Consolidated Freightways's Canadian LTL company) on a 1972 trip to Canada. At that time the trailers where I think about 30' in length.

My wife tells me all the time my tongue is to sharp. Please forgive my sharp replies. I was wrong.

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

Dave,

You have just sliped a new term under the table:

QUOTE: In terms of handling, it's my understanding that the "b-train" combo design allows for better driver control than the drawbar pulled trailer design. It shouldn't be too hard to design a b-train combo for double 53's.

Is this a Canadian thing? When talking about a b-train combo, why did you bypass 48's and go right to double 53's.

Don't you owe it to the readers to explain b trains and Canadian doubles, or are you just wanting to impress all of us?

Jim

Not quite sure what you're getting at in that last sentence, but..........

B-trains are a trailer combination set up in which the 5th wheel for the following trailer is embedded into the frame of the leading trailer, in contrast to the drawbar pulled 5th wheel unit where the 5th wheel is located on the drawbar wheelset. The advantage of the b-train is that there is only one pivot point between the 1st and second trailer, compared to the drawbar unit which has two pivot points, one where the drawbar connects to the lead trailer's hitch and the other in the 5th wheel itself. Therefore, the b-train allows for better control by the driver. It's comparable to the difference between an articulated railcar set and a drawbar connected railcar set.

I'm not sure if the Canadians invented the b-train, but they sure have taken advantage of the concept. This is probably due to the fact that the Canadians have allowed higher GVW's on their highways, and this led to the quicker adoption of the concept for the control factors. Compare most Canadian grain trailer combos vs the standard U.S. grain trailer combo's. We have mostly used the drawbar unit, while their trailers incorporate the b-train. The Canadian truckers are allowed to pull two fully loaded 20' containers, and the 5th wheel is located at the rear of the slider chassis, a natural fit. Our GVW regs only allow one fully loaded 20' container per cab unit, so there has been no real incentive to install a 5th wheel in our 20' container slider chassis.

The downside of the b-train concept for a dry van or other rear discharge trailer is that you need an extension in the trailer frame past the rear doors of the trailer to allow room for the 5th wheel and the front of the trailing trailer. Since our trailers are limited to 53' in most states, you could only have a 48' box on the 53' trailer frame, unless the feds allow an exemption to the 53' limit for use of b-train technology. Also, this dead space between the rear doors of the lead trailer and the trailer's rear frame doesn't allow a dry van to park the box flu***o a loading dock, possibly exposing cargo to weather while loading or unloading.

The solution to this dead space is to use a separatable 5th wheel dolly that can fit solidly (e.g. acts as a solid extension of the lead trailer's frame) to the rear of the 53' trailer when in b-train mode yet can be removed easily to allow the box to fit flu***o a loading dock. I'm not sure if such a dolly exists, but I have seen air adjustable dollies that are used to help spread the lead trailer's load over more axles, and I believe these dollies are solid connections rather than pivoting connections.

Here's a good link for pictures of b-train chassis:

http://www.max-atlas.com/eng/train.html

[Anonymous]

B Trains to me here in the usa run about Michigan. They are the only state allowed to run them. They get quite heavy on the gross weight. Much heavier than regular 40 tonners.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by foureasy

As too the double 48 foot trailers,they have pulled them on the Ny thruway for years,along with triple 28 footers.I wish my tractor at the time had the horsepwer those guys had.Live and let live,stay safe no matter rail or road.,Jim

I don't want to shake your universe, but we out west where doing this triple thing long before anyone in New York could count to three!

And of course the whole idea came from Australia and its road trains....

Jim

[Anonymous]

Dave,

You have just sliped a new term under the table:

QUOTE: In terms of handling, it's my understanding that the "b-train" combo design allows for better driver control than the drawbar pulled trailer design. It shouldn't be too hard to design a b-train combo for double 53's.

Is this a Canadian thing? When talking about a b-train combo, why did you bypass 48's and go right to double 53's.

Don't you owe it to the readers to explain b trains and Canadian doubles, or are you just wanting to impress all of us?

Jim

[Anonymous]

As too the double 48 foot trailers,they have pulled them on the Ny thruway for years,along with triple 28 footers.I wish my tractor at the time had the horsepwer those guys had.Live and let live,stay safe no matter rail or road.,Jim

[Anonymous]

ed: Regarding shorthaul, if not by truck, then by what? It's my understanding that trucking owns 99.9% of all shorthual moves. (The 0.1% is accomplished by shortline railroad here in the PNW, where several companies run shorthaul grain shuttles between elevators and barge ports, in hauls under 100 miles). You are correct that if the driver is responsible for loading and unloading the cargo, it takes away from the number of shorthaul trips per day or per week that pay the per mile wages. But if the loading and unloading is done by other labor, then all the driver is doing is taking the trailers from one locale to the next. Or if the driver is heading to or from the intermodal yard, he's not burdened with that requirement on the terminal end. In that aspect, the more the driver can handle in terms of trailers or payload per day or week, the more productive he is to the shipping company. If the company is wasting the driver's high demand skills by having him load and unload cargo while other trailers are just sitting there waiting for a driver to take them where they need to go, then the company is wasting their own assets. I just wonder how much of this truck driver shortage is being caused by these high demand drivers being forced to do something other than driving, something that is better done by lesser skilled labor?

Labor tends to be more productive when it is divided into specifications rather than jack of all trades, at least in theory. The point is to provide enough work hours to make sure each labor division is getting the full 8 to 10 hours per day, and not just sitting around after the specific job have been met, while other work goes begging. If the work requirements are too small to justify labor divisions, then the dual job roles make more sense.

greyhouds: Remember, it isn't the number of trailers so much as it is the total payload burdening the cab unit. I would bet the average 53' dry van trailer plying the Interstates weighs half of the average grain trailer plying the backroads of rural America. If you can keep the total GVW of two 53's under 150k, you should be okay in terms of what the rig can pull.

In terms of handling, it's my understanding that the "b-train" combo design allows for better driver control than the drawbar pulled trailer design. It shouldn't be too hard to design a b-train combo for double 53's.

In the future, if longer and/or higher GVW units are allowed, you might see the concept of the DPU used in trucking. Putting a cabless engine unit as the 5th wheel base between the first and second trailer, and remotely controlled by the cab unit, could have some of the same benefits for trucking as it does for railroads.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

And after all this fun, you might make 30k after expenses. Should we be surprized that the line of qualified applicants doesn't extend around the block?

This is what an industry expert said and I quoted (reposted):

"One expert that was quoted in this article said churn would continue to be a problem until pay for long haul drivers was ratcheted up to $60,000. As a non-expert I’d add the benefit packages might need sweetening too."

The TL portion of the industry, first driven by the Swift model created during 1979 or 1980, was sell them training, endenture them from one to three years and the low wages will offset the churn.

If income in the TL protion of the trucking industry was repersented by fair wages, most longhaul loads would hit a ramp for a trip over a railroad between origin and destination.

Only the most valuble or time sensitive loads would be trucked nationwide by highly paid teams. Think I full of it?

Read a past issue of Trains Magazine or was it Pacific Rail News... about JP Hunts response to driver shortages more than ten years ago. Its good reading, long haul driver's wages went from 32 cents a mile to 42 cents a mile. The bulk of the low margin traffic that would not support higher wages went to intermodal.

Jim - Lawton, NV MP 236.0

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan

To all those drivers running I-80 west of Larimie over El Mountain in the winter their is a much safer way and the old timers know it. That is the old route 30 that parallels the UP main and stays down in the valleys. And if you are a train watcher you will see plenty of action along the route. First starting running this route before I-80 was completed it was the only route. After one trip over Elk Mountain in blizzard i reverted to the old route and found I made just as good a time. Just because it looks shorter on the map doesn't mean that it safer or any faster. This is just one case of where older is better.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I was in a truck stop at Rawlings, WY in 1972 and overheard a rancher from that Elk Mountain area state that the Union Pacific once had its mainline run over this region and some twenty years later (1880s) realigned its track to that route that you mentioned running through Medicine Bow rather than over the grade at Elk Mountain.

Then, must have been 1973, heard that because the feds didn't take the advice of the Wyoming DOT, all snow removal on I-80 through the Elk Mountain area was from then to now paid for by the feds. Again, don't know if there is anything to this, or if its just rural-myth?

Also, although I-80 was not completed through Elk Mountain, it was opened for traffic without its finish layer of asphalt, the top coat. This during late fall of, I think 1973 - I could be off, plus or minus a year. Anyway, deer and elk are great jumpers, but antelope are not. Well, I come around a bend to see the largest heard of antelope I'd ever seen, they were caged-in a meadow by the newly installed I-80 fencing.

Well, I spied a pickup truck with driver and two hunters in the back, road hunting this herd from I-80, pissed me off! The hunters were about to take their shots. I laid down on my air horn and sent that heard back up ELK Mountain. I think I'd wrecked those road hunter's shot.

Before anyone jumps to a conclusion, I have no reservation about hunting. I do have a conceived idea of how it should be done, and certainly not from the back of a moving pickup truck on I-80!

Jim

[Anonymous]

greyhounds,

I really enjoyed the story about that Iowa trucker and how he moved three loads to Chicago with one line haul move and then back hauled three more loads back to Iowa with one move. He was a smart cookie!

QUOTE: Any of you drivers want to take twin 53's over Donner in January?

Can't speak for back east, but in Nevada its only twin 48's that are allowed. In the western states anytime chains are required these extra length combinations are not allowed. In the case of triples the 3rd box and second con-gear must be dropped, the same with the rear 48 ft trailer and its con-gear. With a "Rocky Mountain" set (48' trailer and con-gear and 28' trailer) the same is true in Nevada and Utah.

If it was legal, I would not mind triples or twin 48's over Donner, but never with chains. With wet or dry roads it wouldn't be much different than a set of doubles with the exception of the much higher gross weight.

Its interesting to note that CalTrans along with the California Highway Patrol tested triples on I-5 during the late 1970s - early 1980s, can't remember the exact year. The tests results were positive, but the California Automobile Association lobbied very successfully to keep these combination off of California freeways. And in my opinion probably best for California.

QUOTE: I'm open to correction by a driver - but there are a lot of problems with them.

From my experience they are no more problematic than a set of doubles.

QUOTE: When a heavy truck starts, something has to slip. The engine is turning, the wheels are not. Either the clutch or the wheels has to slip during starting. What was demonstrated was that a tractor pulling two 48's up a curving on ramp could have problems. If the driver had to stop, and that's going to happen, he couldn't get the highway train moving again. He was stopped with a heavy load on an up grade on a curve. Throw in some ice/snow, whatever and the vehicle isn't going to move.

My bid truck at work is a two axle 1987 GMC Brigadier with a 240 hp Cummins matched to a 7 speed transmission. I like to call it my "18 year old, single owner, low mileage classic!" Many times taking this tractor up to Stead on the 6% of US 395 during traffic with a set of "Triples" its stop and go, the grandma gear gets it going every time after a stop on grade. And a "heal and toe" on the fuel peddle, without clutch, gets it into 2nd, and so on...

QUOTE: "Turnpike Doubles" are allowed in certain states on certain routes. As are three 28 foot trailers behind one tractor. It's not going away, and it's not expanding. Heavy trucks beat the Hell out of the highways. From what I know, these routes for the "Turnpike Doubles" are toll roads that charge proportional to use. Unless the states do that, they're going to dig themselves into a big financial hole maintaining their highway networks.

In Nevada these over-length combination are allowed on most highways and streets where regular heavy duty commercial traffic is permitted.

This just for fun, for most people in the trade a "Rocky Mountain" set is configured as follows: truck-tractor, 48' trailer, con-gear, then the 28' pup. Where I work, none of our 48' trailers have pintel hooks. So are "Rocky Mountain" sets are configured as truck-tractor, 28' pup, con-gear, then the 48' trailer.

Another just for fun; I get a buck - yes, that is one dollar, a "Washington" if you will, for pulling one of these over-length combinations. But, before anyone gets excited, I get paid by the hour. More trailers...more drop and hooks, and the longer it takes.

Jim - Lawton, NV

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Here's a thought: If you are a husband and wife team, wouldn't you make twice as much if you each drove a separate rig? Ideally, regarding what greyhounds was pondering, if trucks were mostly relagated to out and back day hauls between origin and the railhead instead of these long hauls, a husband and wife team driving separate rigs with loads originating in their general locale, and only going as far as the rail terminal and back home that evening, could really rake in the dough, right? Two 53' trailers pay twice as much as one, right?

The other side of that coin is the idea of allowing a single rig to pull tandem 53's on certain Interstates, and then separating them for the local haul in the warehouse district, or the rural roads, or the run from the distribution center to the store, etc. This assumes the trucking companies would actually pay more per mile for pulling multiple trailers...

OK, I want to be very clear here. I do not, in any way, shape, or form, support government economic regulation that would limit what types of freight hauls could be done by trucks. The government can not possibly do this with any chance of success. Let the free market place sort things out.

Any of you drivers want to take twin 53's over Donner in January?

I did work in marketing for International Harvester/Navistar when it was the largest truck manufacturer. We took a good look at "Turnpike Doubles" (what they call one tractor pulling two full sized trailers). We concluded it would hurt tractor sales. (That was tough to figure!). I'm open to correction by a driver - but there are a lot of problems with them.

When a heavy truck starts, something has to slip. The engine is turning, the wheels are not. Either the clutch or the wheels has to slip during starting. What was demonstrated was that a tractor pulling two 48's up a curving on ramp could have problems. If the driver had to stop, and that's going to happen, he couldn't get the highway train moving again. He was stopped with a heavy load on an up grade on a curve. Throw in some ice/snow, whatever and the vehicle isn't going to move.

"Turnpike Doubles" are allowed in certain states on certain routes. As are three 28 foot trailers behind one tractor. It's not going away, and it's not expanding. Heavy trucks beat the Hell out of the highways. From what I know, these routes for the "Turnpike Doubles" are toll roads that charge proportional to use. Unless the states do that, they're going to dig themselves into a big financial hole maintaining their highway networks.

[MP173]

Dave:

I am not a driver, but I think I can answer that one, or at least start the discussion. Trucking is very asset dependent for an OO. the trick is to keep the unit moving as much as possible.

Generally speaking, short haul trucking is a very difficult proposition....just look at the stories that are being told of loading and unloading. Granted, quite a bit of the freight is palletized, but on intermodal (particularly container loads) it will not be palletized and the loading/unloading would really be tough.

The drayage of intermodal is generally handled by specialized carriers that deal with that sort of business, know the ins and outs of it and have contracts to handle larger volumes of trailers.

ed

[Anonymous]

Here's a thought: If you are a husband and wife team, wouldn't you make twice as much if you each drove a separate rig? Ideally, regarding what greyhounds was pondering, if trucks were mostly relagated to out and back day hauls between origin and the railhead instead of these long hauls, a husband and wife team driving separate rigs with loads originating in their general locale, and only going as far as the rail terminal and back home that evening, could really rake in the dough, right? Two 53' trailers pay twice as much as one, right?

The other side of that coin is the idea of allowing a single rig to pull tandem 53's on certain Interstates, and then separating them for the local haul in the warehouse district, or the rural roads, or the run from the distribution center to the store, etc. This assumes the trucking companies would actually pay more per mile for pulling multiple trailers. Or the idea of replacing the GVW limits with a per axle max, thus allowing more payload per rig while keeping the total weight spread out over the multiple axles to reduce road damage.

Either way, make it more profitable to drive trucks (regardless of whether it's a short haul to the nearest rail terminal, or a long haul with more trailers and/or payload per rig), and more people will sign up.

[MP173]

Really fascinating stories.

I was asked if I pulled pups in LTL....no. I was not a driver, but was in management and I never learned to drive. After 13 years in the industry, I saw the light and realized it was time for a career move.

I worked in the traffic dept, which for this company also included sales and claims. So, I wore a number of hats. Looking back, I stayed too long, but it was a very fascinating industry. LTL trucking, such as Yellow, Roadway, USF Holland, is a very interesting business. I compare the railroad's carload business to it. Very similar with consolidation points (yards / LTL terminals) in which either trains or line haul loads are built. An LTL terminal at night is a very interesting and dynamic place.

Have any of you ever delivered to either the Fulton District or old Water Market district in Chicago?

The Fulton (meat market) is still around, although the loft and condo folks are making inroads and do complain about the noise at 2am!!! Buyer beware, they should have done due diligence before moving in. The old Water Market district sounds like Hunts Point in NYC. That place was wild. I would be interested in your stories about it and how it compared to HP.

Water Market is in the process of converting to housing condos believe it or not. The fruit and vegetable folks have scattered. One of the nicest locations is not too far away on Ashland, a company called Anthony Marano has an absolute palace of a produce warehouse. The offices are incredible.

The entire transportation industry seems at this time in a position of strength for the first time in ages. Rates are improving. Many of my customers are trucklines. I respect them as very smart businessmen. They know their company, their customers, and the competitors very well.

Walmart...as a salesman, dont get me started either! I lost the last bit of respect (and it was small) over the last fiasco regarding the Vice Chairman who was resently fired....along with the VP who reported him for his indescretions.

ed

[edbenton]

You don't need to tell me about lumpers I drove for a company that has maroon trucks and trailers out of WI. They paid you to unload a trailer a grand total of 15 bucks IF you had to unload. I had multiple loads where the reciver did not allow drivers to unload you had to hire a lumper the lumper wanted 50 bucks to unload either you paid them or did not get unloaded. My dispatcher aka the SLAVE DRIVER refused to authorize the payment of said bill and just took it out of my pocket instead turned him in since corp polilcy was any and all requests for a lumper are to be approved.

He starved me out of there within 6 mos. I was lucky if I got 1200 miles a week after I turned him in The worst thing he did to me was gave me a load to eastern PA total of 1300 miles and I had 5 days to do it in tried to get to come home HE SAID IF YOU GO HOME I WOULD HAVE TO PAY THE OUT OF RTOUTE MILES talked to his supervider who had the backbone of a jellyfish he agreed with the dispatcher. LAst load i pulled for them.

[Anonymous]

Trucker pay for long haul is based on mileage pay. There are additional money generated by the truck that goes to the company. I believe tarriffs and negotiated rates per mile via contract to shippers and recievers apply here.

Trucking companies do a good job of keeping the drivers out of the room where rates are set on the loads. I suppose if a trio of Aluminum coil pays 2.30 a mile from Kentucky to Virginia they dont want the driver to know this rate. (HE probably made about .27 cents of that.)

Trucks are expensive to operate. Wanna own one and drive it too? Wal.. Insurance, fuel, payroll, permits etc etc etc infinite nasuem.... reckon about 1.10 a mile if you wanna keep solvent. Then you add in the profit margin you will make and then the driver's pay.

So I think most loads run 1.50 or so a mile. However time in the truckstops reading load boards for adhoc delieverys convinced me that loads sometime sell for maybe .78 cents a mile to the O/O (Owner operator) I could be wrong.

You will be expected to drive 500 miles a day. Sickness, persnal inability to sleep less than 8 hours, time management and other issues on the driver's part better not interfere with the strength or desire to run 500 miles a day.

Teams can do 1000 miles a day. I am being very conservative here. I have put away miles so high it is difficult to log it legal both as a single driver and as a team driver.

YOu probably will run about 7600 miles to 15,000 miles a month. Feast and famine as a single driver. Teams will put away at least 150,000 a year. My last full year as a team with the wife put about 230,000 on the truck which was less than 2 years old. This was in 10 months.

You will be paid according to Houshold Miles. Rand McNallys mileage guide the entire industry agrees to use.

Forget everything you know about how far it is from scraptown USA to Bumtown USA. According to the Household Guilde.. these two "Fantasy" destinations are 1000 miles apart.

Actual travel from the truckstop empty to the customer might get paid. Very little if any. The customer is 30 miles north of Scraptown. You dont get paid the mileage inside and around scraptown. You may find yourself running 1200 miles to get to Bumtown.

"Hey! You show me 1000 pay miles on my payroll check!! My truck shows 1500 miles on this trip!? You owe me 500 miles worth of PAY!!"

Sorry. You will be paid 1000 miles for the trip. If you have to unload boxes out of the truck on that delievery, you probably will be paid 40 dollars. 45,000 pounds require a good man with a strong back several hours to unload. (5-9 hours) You could hire two people called lumpers to do it.

Better keep them down as close to 60.00 as you can. Companies pay out "Lumper rates" at about .05 cents a case. If you have 1200 cases total weighing 45,000 pounds then the lumpers should accept a rate of about 60.00

Lumpers know these rates. They know what your company will pay. They have gotten more money than that out of your company before.

Pffth. Hire the darn lumpers and MAKE SURE dispatch says "OK" AND... get a Purchase ORDER number for that money. So they can make a comcheck, pay the lumpers and keep your pay safe.

If YOU cannot get OK for that money from dispatch and YOU hire the lumpers at 80.00 or whatever they ask for YOU will pay them. Not the company. You could try to redeem the lumper fee but the company probably will not reimburse you.

The best companies hire lumper companies on contract. You find the lumper office and say here is my load, unload me please. And it gots done. No money involved on the driver's part.

Dont get me started on walmarts. That is worth a whole another thread.

Food.

MMM...MMM..MMM nice eggs, bacon, omlette, sauage gravy, buscit, coffee, pretty waitress and everything is right with the mawning.

12.00 please. WHAT!? For BREAKFAST!? (20 years ago it was 2 bucks with bigger portions)

You drive 4 hours or so, get hungry. Stop for lunch. Salad, Cheeseburger and fries in gravy. (That stuff is nasty but soo good) and soda.

6.00 please. Now you have 6 hours to go and need a nap to sleep this off.. getting a tad tired are we?

You struggle thru your tired afternoon thru two cities worth of rush hour and fighting cut thorat commuters who dont give a *** about your big slow, smokey rig that is in thier way.

Tired and shaking from exhausting you stagger into the truckstop restruant for a evening of food, coffee and fellow ship.

One pound steak, salad, taters, greens and ice cream as well as finger food and 3 hours later you stumble to your truck fat, happy and 15.00 short.

Total for the day in food: 33.00

You will be allowed to deduct your expense at a flat rate come tax day. But need to show your time away from home.

That 33.00 in food is = to about 66 miles at .25 cents per mile. But since you drove 600 miles today, you did pretty good.

7 days later you have spent about 225.00 in food. Your 600 miles a day comes out to $150/day or $1050 gross pay. Taxes will take about 40 cents of every dollar you make. Then your benefits will take away even more.

so. Net pay approx 600.00 Food bill 225.00 remaining $375.00

You will need 225.00 for next week's 7 days of food.

Take home $150 for 60+ hours **no.. make that 90 hours of work.

If you dont make the mileage then you will probably get a comcheck for next week's food placing you at the mercy of the company which just became your friendly short term lender and will recoup thier money from your paycheck the following friday.

It is quite possible to go negative and see your debt climb weekly until they cut you loose as a liablitiy.

That food aint so good now is it?

Reality sets in.

Breakfast.. coffee, biscuts sausage gravy and some coffee. Hardly any green, meat or real protein 4.00

Skip lunch. maybe eat a candy bar or a bag of chips and a soda.

Dinner you eat a bowl of chili. Perhaps a Mc donalds.

That mcdonald's food will last you an hour if you are working hard.

Total maybe 12.00 a day. But you are shorting yourself on calories a day.

When you are at work you need about 3,000 calories a day. In Winter storms throwing chain and fighting man killing cold your calorie requirement will top 8,000 per day.

That driver pay has improved somewhat. But it is far better to stop at walmart, buy 2 week's food at once store it in a cooler and a rack. Cook it yourself. You need a pots and pan situation just like home and time to cook the meals. You will learn to use the waiting time that is soooo long and tiring in doing house work tasks about your rig and resting.

You will spend less, be free from the truck stop and if a team show dispatch the ability to be ready to go 24/7 at a moment's notice. No need to stop to eat breakfast for a couple hours. Your spouse can cook as you drive. That is the best of trucking. You better do the dishes when it is your spouses's turn to drive.

I kept things very simple with this post on pay. There is many ways to get paid in trucking and there is a great deal of money involvoed in this business. I am talking as if you are a company driver who is unmarried.

If you have a house, cars, kids and other things to pay on like maybe child support etc... that pay check may be insufficient to cover it all. In the mean time your body get tired and weak from lack of nutrition.

Be careful out there.

[Anonymous]

Actually less than 30K. Ill ponder the subject and get back on this. It's time we talked pay. It is NOT what the recruits seem to think it would be.

[jeaton]

And after all this fun, you might make 30k after expenses. Should we be surprized that the line of qualified applicants doesn't extend around the block?

[Anonymous]

Watch a Semi truck at any traffic intersection.

The driver "Should" come out of the turn lane on his green gently. Before you know it he is sitting half in the intersection postioned to sharp left when the opposing traffic light goes red clearing the way.

The cab will jack to the left with the radius sharper and sharper and reaches maximum "Jack" (Jackknife) and pivot the trailer into the turn. This can be done forwards or backwards.

Another kind of turn for right hand turns involves bullying your rig into both your right lane and also teh left lane. This prevents folks from sneaking by on the right.

Passing a truck on the right = Death
Passing on the left = Life

But you dont want folks passing on either side as you will swing first to the left until the trailer reaches it's halfway mark and swing hard to the right. Sometimes cars have to back up to let you clear the turn the trailer wheels should just miss the corner on the right.

JB Hunt's Tire Budget for the two right side trailer outside tires approach millions of dollars simply because poor drivers grind em up on a right turn.

Backing a truck.. whew. I cannot write about that here. You can only learn by doing. In my driving school we used to hold contests in rodeo style barrel racing backwards with a trailer.

(You insurance types disregard my last paragraph)

Sometimes fun and games driving backwards makes a skillful driver. But when you approach a food market jammed with trucks inches from each other it becomes very very seriously important to do it right.

That 300 pound bubba whose headlight you just broke probably will not be in any mood to talk insurance or payment.

Seriously tight spaces exist. You think driving school was tight.. whoo hoo boy... that is spacious and free in terms of room.

At times I have been in total tears and weeping because I cannot back worth a hoot. Or actually broke something trying to fit in that ittle bitty spot I think I can.

Get out and check behind ya!

Once I was so fatiqued I was at a ware house with many doors. I had the entire place to myself. I was told, pick a door.

2 hours later I paid another driver 10 bucks to back me in. Fatique is worse than being drunk. Dont drive sleepy. (Crazy aint it?)

You will be backing trucks inside buildings, under ground.. oh yes there are whole warehouses under the ground you gotta go down under the earth truck and all. Some miltary areas have cities where nothing above but prarie grass and wind. Awesome.

Then you might be backing a truck on a mountain top. Outside your right hand window is a 3,000 foot sheer drop filled with spear like evergreen trees and birds while to your left is all kinds of stuff you dont want to hit while under your wheels is loose shale or rock causing your traction to slip and slide you and the whole rig towards that 3,000 foot cliff.

Time for some whiskey and smokes.. might be the last as I drop to my death.

Sometimes you think your number is up, Im still here. I guess it's aint my day to die just yet.

I have seen folks injured or die on the road for some of the most stupid of causes.

I witnessed a convertable zip by me at 90 mph in the left lane of the interstate. We both head into mt eagle westbound in the driving rain.

Halfway up the mountain, the convertable is on it's roof on fire crushed against a rock face on the left while the body of the man in the hurry lies nearby.

In a hurry? slow down, you may not live to get to where you gotta go in the hurry.

[greyhounds]

What's a "J Hook"?

If I had to guess, and I do have to guess, it would be a left turn where you first have to steer right, then make a sharp left. Or the other way if you are trying to go right.

I drove a tractor-trailer one time. It was when I was in the Army and training to be a 2nd Lieutenant in the Transportation Corps. After basic I went to a railway unit, then I was assigned to a duece and a half platoon that had straight trucks.

My hat's off to anyone who can handle those things. To this day I can only back up a trailer with extreme difficulty.

[Anonymous]

Routerock very good post.

You wonder why many of today's trucks have "Clean" sides on the tractor without handrails. That is one of the reasons.

The lizards are part of the scenery as well as the bums and such. I dealt with them politely but never ever did business with them no matter how long I was away from home. There were *ahem.. other venues and if you had a girlfriend or a spouse then there was no need to be looking for these lizards.

If you pass a truck, look for the stickies that have a symbol of no drugs and no sex and similar. Once you have one of these on your rig near the bottom of both doors the hassle level declines greatly.

I have seen a great increase of behavior that I dont approve of among men. But you deal with it and move on. The restrooms in rest areas are filled with graffitti. You think you have seen dirty bathrooms, you try some of the ones Ive seen. I believe down in Mexico the food codes dont cover some of the bathrooms.

You had a chemical toilet on the truck. That also frees you in the eyes of the law to inhabit the vehicle for extended periods of time. If you had a inverter that generated 110 volt electricity that was approved by the company and installed by the truck's dealer not anywhere else and inspected for wear on the wires daily you were in good shape.

I still advocate gensets. The 5,000 dollar expense will be offset over time by fuel savings by not running the big engine. And they provide a chance to stay hot in winter or cool in the summer if your big engine did fail.

The backrow or the party row as it is known is the last row the furthest from the restraunt building of a truck stop. Usually truckstops try best to secure the place and keep "traffic out" but the fact of matter is.. stuff goes on. The most common problem besides lizards was the form of justice that some drivers recieve that no one will ever report to law enforcement. There are some people who insist on being boors or really bad towards fellow drivers and need to be "tenderized" that is all I have to say about that.

Another issue was robbery. In the older trucks it was possible to use starting fluid (A specific type of chemical but wont metion it here) where you would spray the can into the air intake of the truck's heating or aircondition system or simply thru a side vent. Wait a while. Use several more cans. Then you are able to get inside the truck and actually root in the drivers bunk while the unconsious driver knows nothing. That was one danger that the engineers design against today.

Today's trucks have "Buried" air intakes and reconfigured the vents so it is very difficult to get to them from the outside. Much safer today.

You would buy a television set for your rig, vcr's dvd's maybe even a sony playstation video game. Some drivers have hobbies. I built athearn or other car kits in HO during times of extreme waiting. Books, computers, cell phones and the old Park n View system (will describe next paragraph) are really great.

Truck stops have video games, store and other things to spend money on. Casinos are the ultimate in fun but cost alot of money. Some places like the Mall of America in MN have truck parking where you can spend your day "Decompressing" from stress.

In worst case scenarios a motel (Super 8 or hampton is best) is good for recovering from illness provided you dont need to visit the ER. Being sick on the road is really really bad on everyone. When I was sick with high fever and sweat I usually inform dispatch, trade the load off and work my way towards home and family with a bobtail. The closer to home you make it the better it is for everyone in case you do require medical care.

You have a park and view system in the truck stop where your parking space has a yellow cap. Inside that cap is a video line, telephone line hooked into the truckstop's internet, cable TV (Satellite) and telephone system. You purchased a card that would provide service to you personally anywhere in the USA.

It took several years to install in the truckstops at great expense and finally the company over extended themselves and was bought out. There are not enough truckers sitting still long enough in the truckstop. Everyone was either late, in a hurry or doing everything BUT watching TV inside the Cab (I know the TV room is packed full on football or sports nights schedules be ***ed but that is something else)

Eventually for several thousand dollars you were able to purchase a satellite system that kept you "Locked" onto the TV while on the move anywhere in the usa. Sirus radio and other perks improved life out there. Being tied into the TV set during 9-11 was one of the most difficult times and for two whole weeks that television set was on and I have NEVER EVER EVER lost the channel due to range. I think this was the power of the USA in television broadcasting that is only reserved for wartime.

If television service was that good in peace time, I would not have a need for satellite. But oh well.

[route_rock]

Oh yes HighIron Montegl was one that I got comfortable with over the years. The JB boys scared me on any mountains. I saw one fly by on Mont with brakes spitting at me ( molten brake pads are hell on a windshield) Grapevine where one went by me so fast I had lost the door decals! And good old Cabbage! You were right on locale we were coming out of Portland and it was 60 degrees across till you got to the base. It looked like a scene out of a scary movie the top of the mountain had blue clouds and i mean almost thunderstorm style blue black. So we stopped int he old truckstop with the shirts for sale ( I survived Cabbage!) and waited it out. Chain law got lifted and bam up the hill we go only to get to the top and still have a foot of chewed up ice all over hte road! Oh what fun. You got to haul flowers you say well wow more power to you I have seen the stress those folks go through with picky customers and stoke prone dispatchers (if my BP was that high 24/7 Id stroke too)
Speaking of "Unauthoried riders" a buddy of mine was unloading up in the Windy he got up on the expressway from surface streets and it was a J hook type ramp. He looks over in his side mirror to see a face looking in! Guy had hopped on when he slowed to get on. SO here we have malcontent on the side yelling let me in my buddy yelling back no. Malcontnet then says well stop the truck then so I can get off. ( we are now at 45 mph) Buddys response " You got on when I was moving you can get off while I am moving" he got her up to 65 and never looked back. Not sure where he lost the guy at if he lived died whatever. Its a hard world and by god out on the road if your trying to do something nasty unto me well turn about is fair play [:D][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][;)]
And the lot lizards dear god my wife wanted to see one so bad when we first got out there. Well wishes come to those that make them. SHE got hit on by one I thought it was hilarious as it was your typical I have to work the back row where the lights are dim lizard cause am all washed up and you wouldnt sleep with me if I paid you kinda girl. She never wished for that again.

[Anonymous]

Some companies advertise they dont run NYC or offer extra pay for NYC. Take Hunts Point market.

Note that NYC has done a great deal of cleaning up in the last 10 years or so.

You ran into the New Jersey from whereever your load came from and found a truckstop about an hour or two away. Usually you got rested and had a last meal and talked with others going into NYC. It usually would find groups of drivers start to get together about a day or so before actual arrival.

Late in the day, you headed out onto the interstate with the goal of crossing the GW "George Washington Bridge" which was I-95 and a major crossing. I would have a map out.. in the day you took photocopies of mappbooks pages down to the alley level and you knew exactly where you needed to go. It was planned with military precision as you were going into a dangerous area.

One scam was they would approach you at a light... (Oh no. did you actually stop at the light in the city at night?) and ask if you knew where you were going. These locals already know where you are trying to go. IF you look like you know your stuff they will back off. But not before asking for ciggerettes, money or other tidbits as a tribute.

That was one of the reasons you kept moving. I usually brought along a warchest of small bills, ciggerettes and what not as peace offerings to som of these people.

The cost of these items are much less than the cost of assault, injury or worse. That was one way you bought friends for a while so you did not get vandalized or worse.

One of the streets I traveled to hunts point had a elevated subway track, the two poles confront you in the night. You remember that "Offset" training from driving school? Wal... here is an offset that will do a great deal of damage if you hit it.

Money. You needed toll money, tribute money food money and more money. Upon arrival at the gate to Hunt's point market they will charge money to get you inside.

Expensive huh? You aint done yet.

YOu would go to wait with other trucks in a area off to one side. There was a little porta-potty and perhaps a food stand open for part of the night. I swear that same porta-potty was there in the same spot for 10 years or more. The fence behind you has holes in it.

There are people of the night that seek illegal business with you and if you are smart stayed clear of it. each preposition or converstation will deplete your warchest of ciggeretes or small change.

When you are called to back in to unload, you would get more money out to pay the man for assistance with the cargo. There are many people willing to "Help" you with the cargo in different ways. Actually what they are doing is breaking up the order at which it was loaded so that the next reciever will have to rearrange the cargo and charge you for it.

If a dispatcher says dont let them touch the freight then you dont. YOU touch it. It takes a while.

When you are empty you leave the gate at near sunrise. If you are lucky the traffic will be nil and the people in bed. This is your chance to get out of the area. Once the traffic rush kicks in you are part of the exodus and will lose alot of time. Sometimes it will be noon before you get out of the City and back to your truckstop.

Only then do you call in for your next load. This is where qualcomm shines....

Today you can literally type your load request while at the Hunts Market, get your information, open your laptop computer with GPS street mapping, cell phone and have yourself set up and rolling to your next load knowing exactly what is going on.

Now. I have been lucky over the years with NYC, Boston and other cities in markets. Some drivers have not. The last time I had a situation in Rochester NY where waiting on a load of ale in the bullpen (A place for drivers to wait) I had a hooker preposition me and my wife heard the talk thru the window. I informed her that I am married and my wife is about to do something if she did not leave right away. She left. Good thing she did.

Of course I had briefed my spouse co-driver that these situations will come up and while she was upset she took it into stride. So that worked out well.

NYC and other areas have some of the greatest people you ever will meet and one of the joys is meeting people and learning new things. Good things and bad things.

One thing that happened alot was people would jump up onto my "Catwalk" which is behind my cab on the tractor with the goal of severing my airline and the qualcomm connection.

The only thing I will say is this: A sharp turn of the wheel into a J turn to jack the cab 90 degrees to swing the cat walk under neath the reefer unit of the trailer usually sweeps em out. To this day I dont ever have any idea if they lived or died. I will find out when I die and meet with the lord.

But I think they all got out. I usually check the trailer wheels and listen for screams. Nothing so far.

Welcome to Hunt's Point, we hope you enjoyed your stay.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173



Greyhound, that story of the Iowa trucker was great. Does the CN still run intermodal over that route to Iowa?

ed

I think a 3rd party intermodal company that aggregated these opportunities to get the attention of CN and others could make a good buck. But I have no idea how to start sutch an enterprise.

I will tell you this: It would only be worth the hassle if the railroad already has some freight opportunities that currently go begging. That's one reason a few of these 3rd party outfits have worked in the PNW. There's alot of empty containers heading west, so if you can fill 'em up with something that's already going that direction, so much the better. You still have to lobby the railroad until you're blue in the face, and it gets frustrating because the benefit is so obvious to anyone with any business sense.

I'll put it this way: If the grocery stores did business like the remaining Class I's, they'd only be selling the high margin products like cigarettes and beer, and the idea of selling the lower margin essentials like baby formula and toilet paper would be rejected by management as "not worth our while". There's an obvious reason for this.........

[Anonymous]

For what it's worth, here's an analysis from the financial sector regarding shipper preference rail vs truck. It does bring up the point that the current situation is a temporary glitch, and sooner or later the trucking sector will catch up with it's natural demand curve. If the railroads really want to keep this piece of the pie for the long term, they better come up with something more tendable.

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/freightnews/article.asp?id=6722

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Gabe

I don't think your group could get a majority vote on a yes or no question.

Jay

Laughing: yeah, that had occurred to me.

Gabe

One "yeah"
One "nay"
One abstain.

There you have it. Democracy in perfect synchronicity.[:p]

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

A 500 mile run could be made by a driver in under 8 hrs as long as you keep the left door closed. I have repeataly done a 550 mile run in just over 8 hrs key is keep the left door closed and run like the wind.

Yes, and if it's gotta' get there in eight hours, it's gonna' go by truck.

Most of the freight isn't that time sensative, the shippers generally want reliable transit times, not fast transit times. We hauled water heaters from A.O. Smith at Kankakee, IL to Omaha day in and day out with a 24 hour transit from the Chicago ramp to the Council Bluffs ramp. A day's inventory cost on a load of water heaters isn't that big of a deal. What kills railroad competitiveness is erradic delivery, not one day slower delivery.

You can often buy a day with a rate. And that's what the railroads have to do with their intermodal service. Provide reliable, consistant service at good rates. The transit time has to be reasonable, you couldn't sell seven days from Kankakee to Omaha, but we could sell 36 hours dock to dock and make a buck doing it. And we did.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Gabe

I don't think your group could get a majority vote on a yes or no question.

Jay

Laughing: yeah, that had occurred to me.

Gabe

[jeaton]

Gabe

I don't think your group could get a majority vote on a yes or no question.

Jay

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds


I think a 3rd party intermodal company that aggregated these opportunities to get the attention of CN and others could make a good buck. But I have no idea how to start sutch an enterprise.

How about you, me, and futuremodal pool our resources, go into business together with it, and agree to take no action unless we are all in agreement?

Gabe

[passengerfan]

Years ago got stranded in Yelloeknife NWT for six weeks. Delivery was scheduled for friday AM and I was on time at Canadian Forces Bases Yellowknife. They refused to unload me until Monday well guess what the Ice Bridge went out over the weekend and it was four weeks before ferry service began. Government paid my truck 280.00 per day and I didn't turn a wheel until ferry service began. Flew home and waited for ferry service had a nice vacation. Apparently this happened every spring and fall don't know if it still occurs that was almost twenty years ago.

[chad thomas]

Good stories guys....Keep em' commin'

[edbenton]

A 500 mile run could be made by a driver in under 8 hrs as long as you keep the left door closed. I have repeataly done a 550 mile run in just over 8 hrs key is keep the left door closed and run like the wind.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173



Greyhound, that story of the Iowa trucker was great. Does the CN still run intermodal over that route to Iowa?

ed

No, they don't. CN shut down the Iowa intermodal operations of the old IC and the Wisconsin intermodal operations of the Wisconsin Central.

Like a trucker, an intermodal operation that goes only 500 miles has to be on its toes to make money. We had to keep it balanced - loaded both ways, watch equipment utilization like hawks, etc.

CN has bigger fi***o fry. In the marketing world this is known as "Discrepancy of Size". CN's too big to be bothered with a customer like Marx Truck Line and a 500 mile intermodal haul. That's not a knock on CN. That's just reality. That's the way the economy works and you ain't gonna' change it with a law or anything else.

I think a 3rd party intermodal company that aggregated these opportunities to get the attention of CN and others could make a good buck. But I have no idea how to start sutch an enterprise.

[Anonymous]

MP173 you run pups and doubles? If so, I salute you bouncing along with that short wheel base. And a touch of jealousy as these rigs fit into places I wont even consider getting a 53" into for coffee. (I have done it but those stories I keep just for me. I may share one later today about city driving)

I did LTL where freight is gathered from all over consolidated into several drop offs in one region for FFE out of Lancaster TX and thier system works. But I was also thinking about Restraunts like Red Lobster that requires special kind of LTL.

Take care y'all. I'll be back later with the horrors of Hunt's Point NY where some drivers deliver and somehow never come out.

[MP173]

Very entertaining thread.

I worked for 13 years in the LTL industry. It was (is) much different than the TL side. I really respect you guys out there, particularly the OO's that try to make a living while putting up with shipper demands, dispatch, and all other issues.

Greyhound, that story of the Iowa trucker was great. Does the CN still run intermodal over that route to Iowa?

ed

[passengerfan]

To all those drivers running I-80 west of Larimie over El Mountain in the winter their is a much safer way and the old timers know it. That is the old route 30 that parallels the UP main and stays down in the valleys. And if you are a train watcher you will see plenty of action along the route. First starting running this route before I-80 was completed it was the only route. After one trip over Elk Mountain in blizzard i reverted to the old route and found I made just as good a time. Just because it looks shorter on the map doesn't mean that it safer or any faster. This is just one case of where older is better.

[Anonymous]

routerock, You brought up some good points. Showers were a problem out there. Alot of other things like trash was also a problem. I think the last 5 years up until December of '01 it was pretty bad with the amount of garbage. I am talking actual trash like snack bars, soda pop bottles and unmentionables. They were either too tired to dispose of them or did not care.

My wife and I were two hours from home when dispatch stopped us and had us run our wheels off into Voss MO truck stop and retrieve a flower load. A load of Cut Flowers is one of the hottest time loads in trucking. Those things you gotta get a star trek transporter to keep em fresh.

Upon arrival in Voss I learned that the trainer had a student driver who apparently could not drive. The dispatch told us they spent 10 hours in Phoenix and again in New Mexico another 10 hours lost. It was my judgement that the trainer failed to remedy the situation by sending the trainee home on a bus and trading off to a team while still in Phoenix.

When problems develop you want to reach out. Not wait for someone important to say "OMG! EHAT THE HAU_LL IS WRONG WITH THAT L:OAD!? CALL ME!!"

In the days of quallcomm a satellite message stating "CALL ME" means that the dispatch has already gone volcanic and you are up to here in trouble.

Back to flower load. We grabbed the trailer and ran non stop that evening to Chicago despite having just completed a 1800 mile run. We made it at midnight to a grateful customer. They fed us, coffeed us and gave us first class treatment. IF we did not make it it is quite possible that stores would not get thier flowers and it will roll all the way uphill "Downhill" to the trainer who wasted the 20 hours while out west.

There were diversions like casinos. Some of these have truck stop facilities and for what it is worth they are truck stops. But they also are a place to waste time and money while under a load. I have seen many a driver stumble out ashen faced after wagering that "Last 10 dollars" in hopes of a good hit. I myself enjoy the tables but always when off duty for several days and wife and I bring in 200 dollars to spend that day. If we make something then we go home. Otherwise we are in for a decent rest, meals and a bit of cards.

Some drivers just toss a comcheck down and spend the money without thought to the needs that they may have, meals for the week, tolls, family bills etc. These are the ones that wind up back home broke with creditors calling. What a waste.

You mentioned Mount Eagle. You will find it in TN at the Alabama/GA line on the interstate. It to me is a small mountain but to many a very dangerous one. You knew one of two things. You knew the weather at the bottom and are about to find out the weather at the top.

I think out west in the Sierra range it is quite possible to eat breakfast while it is 60 degrees out, climb a pass and be in roaring winter with chains out and cold penetrating the cab by lunch and down in the blazing 100 degree desert by dinner. Fortunately for me such extremes in one day were not too common.

You mentioned the "Cabbage" that refers to the Blue Mountains in Oregon. (Correct me if I am wrong) in winter that is a pretty challenging and dangerous drive. Sometimes a winter storm hits the coast and spreads over the NW so fast that you may find yourself coming out of Oregon into Utah on chains for many miles at 10 mph at 4000 feet for a hundred miles.

Alitiude was important to the trucker. You may sit in Philadelphia at sealevel and it would be 50 degrees. Above you it may actually be snowing only it is too dry for you to see it unless you got high enough. Sometimes wild weather plays a role.

One more story before I head out. I was past Rapid City SD heading west trying to out run a winter storm warning for Rapid City. I figured I had some time to get into the Wyoming range and get "Past" it with a chance of not having to deal with "Split ice"

Well it caught me at Sturgis at the 13 yard stick when I heard the CB say... "westbound" "Yea come on, pick it up and kick it back!" "I just come out of the worst whiteout a mile behind me I'll pray for you" "Thanks driver, see you on the flip side."

A mile later I was wrapped in a total whiteout being lashed by hurricane force winds and actually by feeling the steering wheel bumping the rig against the barrier rail as far right as I could get it without regard to damage to get off the pavement as I hollered for those behind me to stop where they were.

The whiteout was so total you could not see the hood of the rig, the mirriors and the temperature reading from the outside combined with the wind meant you dont ever open the door or anything. Just hold what you got and wait. An hour later I was free to move again luckily the snow blew up, not down or sideways and did not pile up anywhere serious.

5 hours later I learned that Rapid City got hit with 3 feet of snow forcast by morning. I made the right choice by going but was to hit Ice on the back side of the storm. If you can walk on it, you can drive on it... but dont take my word for it. Especially those little bitty 4x4's that think they can OWN the winter. They cannot. In fact... if truckers stop, everything else should stop except maybe trains.

[route_rock]

He hehehe Flashbacks [:D] I learned in a one stack Mack witha window in the back, raced down Montegle ( you JB Hunts that threatened to turn me in when I asked "Hey JB want to race to Chat?" they never caught me) Had a combine at 100+ on the back of a W9 550 cat . Went down Cabbage at night with snow. My wife and I ran team for Chicken Flippers (not what we called em) Inc and ran from Ohio border to Sacramento over Donner in snow ( she was training) in 36 hours OR ELSE!

Screw driving anymore get out now while you can if you are! I read earlier back where someone said O/O's can raise their rates. Nope sorry not with Ill haul it for a penny a mile companies out there. Driving was at one time fun. After the new HOS law we thought ok cool but as a team we got blasted BIG time. 5 days no shower cant think straight to answer a yes or no question. As soon as Max (CFI used mobilemaxs) said you were mty there was a hot load 100 miles plus away and you had to be there in 45 minutes. ETA means EXPECTED time of arrival not estimated.

35 mph dispatch ohhhhhhhh God love ya man! Solos were at 45 mph and teams were 47 one time we were dispatched faster than the truck could run! Imagine telling a guy " I cant be from Sacramento Cali to Laredo Tx in 24 hours!!" and he says Sure you can I can do it in 18 HA I may have been born at night but at least the lights were on! Once we were a full team we said no to Priority dispatch. Well when you drive off all your drivers guess what. You are now just someone to move all the loads they booked. Sleep? Do it when your dead! My wife naked? Never saw it for over 2 weeks we showered at different times so we could move the load! We were dedicated good little truckers till finally I went postal and said enough!

Kids if you want to drive no one can tell you how it is. You have to find out for yourself. I wouldnt trade 13 of my 14 years of driving but that last year you can take it [xx(]

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the update, it was much appreicated.

The Seven Mountains was where I trained in mountain driving. Dispatch made sure that I ran that thing many times by winter.

Then they had me run the PA Pike instead of the US 40 (Soon to be I-68 at cumberland) in bad winter weather as it was safer. Town Hill on 70 south of breeze wood was another favorite.

New drivers were kept on local mountains with trainers until they run the hill with disclipline the same methods every time. Then they were cut loose to run where they are sent.

With that in mind Dispatch of the bigger companies did not allow any driver into the rockies for a very long time virtually everyone banned I-70 between Denver and Utah in winter and nothing but the most experienced (And some locally raised folks) ran that road.

I was to meet much bigger and stronger mountains since Seven Mountains but it is a favorite. I ran it the same way every time without any issues.

I was wondering when they were ever gonna get the roads sorted up there, it is kinda "Bottlenecky" thru some sections years ago.

I also remember Babcock ridge near Altoona with that 10 mph switch back curve near the bottom. If you ever drive a flatbed with no load on it on ice in winter down hill with all of those cars around you... I salute you.

Mountain driving kills if you dont do it right.

[ajmiller]

Yes, the seven mountains is a steep decent on a section of 322 between State College and Lewistown. There's a runaway ramp at one of the sharp turns. I don't go that way often because I don't like driving on I-81/78 between Harrisburg and Allentown. PennDot has been slowly expanding 322 to 4 lanes over the years, including the Narrows stretch south of Lewistown. But there's still a two lane section from the top of seven mountains to Boalsburg just south of State College.

Also, if you haven't been through in awhile, they've been building I-99 between Bald Eagle (just north of Tyrone Pa.) to I-80 at State College. The portion between I-80 and the US-322 bypass around State College was opened a few years ago, and they've rerouted US-220 to follow the new section instead of going down the Bald Eagle valley at Milesburg which they now call Alternate 220. So now 322 and 220 (and eventually I-99) share the same route between State College and Port Matilda. PennDot ran into problems though when they discovered that they exposed a major lode of pyritic rock where the highway is to go over the Bald Eagle Ridge at Skytop just west of State College. The rock is causing acidic runoff in local streams and they've had to delay construction to figure out what to do.

[Anonymous]

There were sections of interstate in those days that were not under construction Note that I said a little over 3 hours. I think it takes about 6 to make the trip today.

I was not able to maintain such high speeds all the way across PA. I am using PA as a example because alot of traffic came down 322 to 15 from State college to points south. Once off I-80 it was no longer a speed issue. I think there was a grade of several percent for several miles down a very steep and winding pass called 7 mountains or something like that. When you did not have Jakes you had to be slow to make it down that natural barrier.

I recall a winter storm that left 2 feet of powder we made the trip in a little over 7 hours because traction was a problem (we are not required chains like the Northwest)

My thinking of 3 hours or so is contaminated by the fact that State College is one of the jump off points to and from I-80 and points west. Alot of the freight I ran with the company required State College to be one of the main "Junctions" for getting on and off a interstate.

Your milege is correct and I recall that many sections especially towards NJ was not suitable for high speed.

Even so a successful high speed transit saved hours that would make the difference between being on time or late.

I am sorry if my numbers confused anyone. It was a long time since I made the trip. However, it was FAST compared to the 55 mph speed limit in those days.

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar
Travel time from Ohio/PA line to NYC on I-80 was about 3 hours and some change at night when proper communications over CB is maintained slowing only at known State police speed traps. Major barriers was State College and Columbia New Jersey as the hills and curves are just too tight for high speed. Milesburg eastbound leaves me with a sense of dread because of the broken concrete and the curve at the bottom.

Milesburg west was 80 MPH loaded up hill at times in the left lane. It is a 10 mile pull and the last 6 miles are so are still over 45 mph. When you run this empty let;s say two things, westbound left lane open? and how much cross wind? What a ride. Think of the fastest elevator you ever rode and add about half again to that feeling.

I live in State College, and my parents live near Allentown, so I happen to drive I-80 between State College and route 33 near Stroudsburg from time to time. That's about 140 miles on I-80 and I probably rarely drive that stretch (usually always late afternoon to early evening) in less than 2 hours. The Ohio border to NYC is probably what, 350 or 360 miles? And you say you did it in 3+ hours? Wow you really must have been averaging 100 mph or more! And even going east there are still plenty of steep hills. I wonder what you averaged on the down hill sections. The speed limit on I-80 is 65 until you get to the I-380 junction where it drops to 55, but the traffic flows at about 80 mph except if it's backed up because of construction.

[Anonymous]

I knew the dollar trucks will get into the picture sooner or later.

I know very few people and trucks who can run faster than I did. All I will say is the time period of the early 90's prior to widespread qualcomm monitoring and goveners imposed on trucks is what I call the "Happy Time"

Before I get into the rest of the story, I state that excessive speed in a full loaded 18 wheeler is probably the worst thing you can ever do from a safety point of view because there are just no recovery from any of many points of failure.

Example if I am at 110 mph at 40 ton on a 5 percent downgrade and something gets into my travel lane, it's just it's day to die. And the question remains how much damage would the rig sustain before it threatens to kill or main me for life. There is always a point where excessive speed strips any human reaction to failures.

Now for the fun part.

I was given a Detriot 460 on a Rockwell 9 with rears geared for 70 mph travel at just over torque on the Tach curve. The rig was capable of about 118 on the flat at max rpm and I have broken 132 counting milemarkers against stopwatch on downgrades.

Travel time from Ohio/PA line to NYC on I-80 was about 3 hours and some change at night when proper communications over CB is maintained slowing only at known State police speed traps. Major barriers was State College and Columbia New Jersey as the hills and curves are just too tight for high speed. Milesburg eastbound leaves me with a sense of dread because of the broken concrete and the curve at the bottom.

Milesburg west was 80 MPH loaded up hill at times in the left lane. It is a 10 mile pull and the last 6 miles are so are still over 45 mph. When you run this empty let;s say two things, westbound left lane open? and how much cross wind? What a ride. Think of the fastest elevator you ever rode and add about half again to that feeling.

Speed in those days made the shippers and recievers very happy. It did not matter how long it took or what kind of delays you had as long as you can break 100 and average at least 60 mph at the mileposts.

Way way faster than the standard 35 mph average speed I plan my trips in the later years.

Out west I have seen flame from some incrediably fast trucks and as fast I was, felt like I was chained to the fence post.

Those days are long over. And I am not sorry to see it go. I have seen wrapped and organized pallets of cargo get totally shaken through out the trailer with some damage.

People who bought things at the store have NO idea of the loss, waste and other issues at the warehouse. That was then. It is much better today. But some waste still remains.

I think I wrote enough about high speed. I advocate safe fast travel today. But not at manifold melting, tireshredding and law breaking speeds.

Many times I have read where steam locomotives were pushed to thier limits and railroads were able to "fly" and some are legends and other stories relate real life travel at very high speeds over long distance.

But I have gotten a little older and slower. Speed is good. to a point.

1- Team drivers 24/7 with onboard coffee making and cooking as well as toilet facilities so that you are free from the truckstop except for fuel and oil changes

2- Dispatch that can run with you in terms of scheduling. They need to be giving you the next load before you are finsihed actually unloading the truck. And allow time for you to get ready for the next run.

3- Minimize problems from shippers and recievers. There are many issues that pop up and the #1 question from these people is:

"Can you get it there faster?"

Imagine. They are getting top notch service from quality equiptment, fully experienced team and a company that knows what needs to be done and gets it done ahead of time... and they still ask for more speed.

[edbenton]

The only reason my father and I got that many miles was due to a computer governer failure [;)][;)]. I knew the password for the feul rack settings and removed the governer form our truck. It was a 97 pete 379 with a 500 kitty cat under the 13 speed double over nad 3.33 rears topped out at 100+. Lets just say I made time at night when I was about the only thing on the road and it helped the boss did not belive in advertising who the company was. Trailers only had a bumper sticker on the reffer unit and the tractors had a sign about the size of a piece of paper. We were the only truck that could run 75 all day long in the states that allowed it only probelm was the fact I knew we would get caught by the company sooner or later what helped is we had a computer failure and it ereased who changed the settings. Man I love a paperclip on 2 points and a 9 volt battery.

[passengerfan]

Ihad one load with 78 drops starting in Washington State, through Oregon California and ending in Arizona. With drop off money was one of most profitable I ever had. The store chain I delivered to had docks open and 7:30 AM and they closed at 9:00 and 10:00 PM so was able to make a lot of drops per day. Believe I was to deliver the entire load from Friday to Tuesday. Many loads I carried had multiple drops or LTL and I doubt their was anyway a Railroad could even begin to handle them. Especially on loads down the Oregon and California coast. Having deliveries along California 1 was interesting as trucks are not allowed on this highway unless delivering and was stopped several time by alert CHP officers. Sure was nice to be able to show freight bills showing deliveries, as I understand the tickets for trucks on this route expensive. Railroads will never be able to handle loads such as I used to carry many had an average 24 drops along the route particularly loads from N. Carolina to Idaho, Oregon and Washington.

[Anonymous]

Handling multipule loads is rather tricky but can be done.

I point to your LTL example. "Less than truckload"

Let's see here. Myself and the wife had a orange load out of Florida. This load was bought and paid for by a loose knit group of people spread between where was it... oh yea.. in the New York state near the Newburgh River Bridge.

I believe there was about 9 stops on that load. The mission was to deliver oranges to individual people and to church groups who are selling them locally to the people who generally may not be able to get fresh oranges that time of the year.

One thing they dont teach in driving school: You dont take a Century and a 53' trailer with a reefer unit humming into a residentail area of single family homes at night and back down someone's driveway where you have 20 people eager to get you as close to the door as possible.

I rather have one trained driver who thinks like I do and knows how to back me into a hole. (Dock, doorway, parking space etc) than 20 people trying to guess which way that creaking trailer was going to go. *Sigh.

Anyways every stop was executed to best of ability and all have thier oranges.

Anything you can imagine to any one who has driven any length of time probably did happen.

I was told in my trucking school that 100 people wanna drive a truck. Cool aint it? 60 will fail the medical exam, or have issues that cannot permit them to be on the road.

40 left. 32 will make it to school. halfway thru 20 will remain.

I think about 19 will graduate with a CDL License. Of that 19...

3 months later 2 will be dead or injured pernamently, 8 quit forever.

9 left.

after one year 5 will stay on. The other 4 will either be injured or have issues with the job's breaking on the body and mind and quit.

After 5 years 2 of those 5 drivers will stay on for the rest of thier lives.

Those are the drivers we want to keep. Recruiting hundreds of thousands of people a year to keep millions of rigs running.

By comparision the railroads run a hell of alot of freight using a handful of professionals.

[greyhounds]

Great thread. Really great thread!

I have sent it to a Professor of Transportation at Northwestern University and The University of Denver and suggested that he bring one of you drivers in to speak to the students. I don't know how he'll respond, or if he'll respond. But I do think you'd be a great educational experience for the students.

The award for the best use of intermodal by a small truck line that I've ever seen has to go to Marx Truck Line of Sioux City, Iowa.

They would haul grain into Chicago for export on the Great Lakes. Then they'd take steel or whatever back. They'd have a driver shuttle two loads of grain over to the ICG ramp at Sioux City. Then, after proper rest, "I'm sure", the driver would drive a load of grain into Chicago. In the mean time, we'd "rail" the other two loads into Chicago.

He'd deliver his grain load, pick up his backhaul and take it to our Chicago ramp. He'd then take one "railed" grain load to the export elevator, get the backhaul and again bring it to our ramp. We'd start the loads westbound while he delivered the third grain load, picked up the backhaul and, drove it back west.

One time the owner's son was the driver. He stopped by in a suit and tie to negotiate the rate down before driving his load west.

One driver handled three loads.

We just basically admired that.

[Anonymous]

Greyhounds, The stephens city was in Virginia along I-81. I think it is near Toms creek around the I-66 changeover. Part of my weight issue was my fault. I was told in no uncertain terms "FILL DAT UPITH!" so I did. I only hoped that box made it to destination overseas intact.

I did have a standing permit for 99,600 pounds gross due to the intermodal weights. The derisive (Scornful) laugher from the officers gathered around my meager paperwork and that permit I still remember to this day. I am just glad they did not add in the axle fine, just the gross. I think the Axle fine would have placed 3 months profits out of the window.

The scale house is a platform about 75 feet or so (I realy dont know how long- I do know the new 53's and long wheelbase trucks had to axle out at times) It is sensitive to about 20 pounds. So if you walked across it they knew your weight.

I ground my way off the highway onto the ramp knowing I was doomed. The tower filled with Officers watching thru the glass expectantly as I groaned onto the scale. The platform should float a little bit under legal loads. This one did not. A dull flat "THUMP" as each axle climbed down 4 inches or so into the platform. When I eased it to a halt the scales groaned with the stress. The C.B. was absolutely silent as well as the "Intercom" next to my cab.

Silence.... finally I heard a female officer "Yer way too heavy! Get it around back and prepare for tickets."

3 hours later I walked out with several thousands of dollars in fines against the company and a admonishment to work AROUND the maryland I 70 scales near Baltimore.

To make a long story short I painfully dragged that load thru back roads around the I-70 scales stacking up traffic at 10 honking road range miles an hour (There were several poleece in that reear view mirrior) made it to baltimore and handed the papers and the keys in. I found better work later on but never again did I load dangerously heavy.

I can say that Mack is tough. If it was a ordinary road truck that we have today it would have broken in half at the frame rails just ahead of the 5th wheel long before it got that far.

I also concur with the nature of the complaints. The complaints are a varied nature. I cannot remember them all but I think the top three are in this order:

1- I slept last week
2- Where is my pay? (Comcheks drained the pay last week)
3- My spouse (Kids, dog, dispatcher, reciever etc etc) is (Insert action)

And my favorite top three questions:

1- You want that load WHERE?
2- You want it there at WHAT TIME?
3- Do you understand I cannot average mileage that high?

(Average mileage I plan trips at 35 mph from the moment I get dispatched against the delivery schedule. If I come up short time wise, I tell boss you aint putting that load on me unless you can get a better schedule.)

Boss says either one of these two things:

1- Get moving and fast yer late!
2- Ok ok ok Let's get it moving and I will call em. (Does he or anyone?)

If you have a accident with the rig, the number one question:

"WHADDA YOU DO TO THE RIG? WHERE IS MY LOAD?" (Who cares about the driver?)

I can add lots more but I think I better stop now.

[Anonymous]

Greyhounds,

Not to nitpick, but what I said was "ag" products dominate going to the West Coast, not "apples". Wheat, hay, ect are mostly bound for the Pacific Rim, while fresh fruit is bound for domestic markets. The PNW fruit growers keep trying to expand their Asian markets, but for some reason they always seem to run up against some roadblock put up by the Asian authorities. The Pacific Rim is just a hard market to crash for quality specific food stuffs.

With regards to your topic question, it may be that the railroads simply don't want to deal with sensitive commodities. As I've said before, because of the railroads' current economic classification (it begins with an "m" and ends in a "y" and is also the name of a popular Parker Brothers board game), they are more risk averse. Truckers are in the opposite category (e.g. highly intercompetitive), thus they are more willing to take these risks despite all the hassles.

[passengerfan]

Remember running eastbound on I-40 one trip when DOT inspoectrors were at Blue Springs scale just east of Kansas City. Since my route very rarely took me through KC they red lighted me to pull to the side and bring in my log book. I had stopped about fifteen minutes before scale to make my log book presentable when other westbound drivers passed the word what was going on eastbound. The DOT man obviously saw the bags under my eyes as he read my log book that said I had just completed eight hours rest. Finally after loooking back several pages and seeing that I at least kept a neat log book he handed the book back and stated if god loved a liar he'd squeeze me to death. It was all I could do to keep a straight face as i exited the scale house.
Another time I completed a day long loading in Marina Del Rey and the company boss asked me how long would it take me to get it to Albuquerque. I said that if the weather held out I would have it their by noon the next day. He said he would really appreciate that. Well I ran all night and had it their by eight the next morning only to be told by the receiver that hye had me schedulked for unloading the next AM as it was not legal for me to have run from LA to Albuquerque as fast as I had. I made a phone call to Marina Del Rey and was told to return to the unloading dock. As I backed up to the dock and went inside where I had been fifteen minutes before I witnessed the former receiver packing the contents of his desk and a five man crew waiting to unload my truck. Went to the same dock many times thereafter and always received excellent service. Some shippers a driver would go out of his way for others were given what they deserved. Once called the DOT myself in Denver for a shipper that wanted me to run straight through to LA. Needless to say I never loaded there again but kept that load.
The major reason there is a shortage of drivers is the same companies are the ones always looking for drivers. If they ever learn to treat there drivers with respect and a decent pay and benefit package they will keep them and not be constantly searching and recruiting for new drivers. That CB radio in each drivers cab lets drivers know what companies are good and those that leave a lot to be desired. And time and time again when I was driving the complaints were always the same companies.

[greyhounds]

" had a load of Turkey meat on a Harrison Burg to Baltimore for the ship (Intermodal container) 40' reefer with a U model Mack (Offset cab) and a gross weight of 139,800 pounds at the stephen city scales (This was before the new computers, I think I hurt the platform there that day)"

Good Lord!

What were the Stephen City Scales? Were they a truck stop scale or what? I can't imagine the cops....or can I, they like turkey too.

You know, I've also enjoyed this thread. It says a lot about the compitition the railroads face. The trucking companies (and employees) can be, and are, much more innovative and flexible than the railroads. One trucking manager can size up a situation and set up a beautiful move that pours money onto his bottom line and into his drivers' pockets.

Of course there's a downside. It's aparently illegal to abuse a draft horse but not a truck driver. Anyone who worked a horse the way some of you drivers were worked would be in trouble with the law.

The railroads have got to figure a way to cut through their corporate beauracracies and get to a better level of this innovation and flexiblity, and they need to do it without mistreating their employees.

[Anonymous]

edbenton, the stories you tell are one of the reasons why some folks dont choose the driving life.

I will share a few of my own. These rocords I made are rather small and of little value to the trucking industry but show what one person and a husband and wife team is capable of doing.

My top single mileage a month stands about 16,000 give or take 500. I cannot reconcile the exact mileage because for the last 6 days I had no hours and logged that entire work week as vacation at home and picked up the log book again from the same place the last duty change was made. Literally off the books. *Shudders

I had a load of Turkey meat on a Harrison Burg to Baltimore for the ship (Intermodal container) 40' reefer with a U model Mack (Offset cab) and a gross weight of 139,800 pounds at the stephen city scales (This was before the new computers, I think I hurt the platform there that day)

The load took many hours because the steering would go out at about 22 mph because of the weight on the axles was too great for the hydralic pump to handle.

A personal distance record is from Ohio to Garden city (Kansas), 2 days sleep waiting on a meat load and then a 2500 mile run down to I-40 across to Mohave and up to Salinas (CA) without stopping except for fuel. I needed 15 hours sleep plus one day to recover from that one but it was on time. I think I left on a saturday afternoon and was there monday afternoon.

I had a single onion load from Washington across the North Dakotas (In -40 temps and a 50 mph wind) into the Boston market as a single driver in less than 4 days. Teams usually run these loads and the reciever was NOT happy as his restrauants were out of the product. I never did figure out why dispatch gave me that one.

I have at times gone 4 days without eating due to payroll / paperwork problems to make ends meet. When I got out of there I was down to 130 pounds Now I am back to near 200 where I should be.

I have had more than one inspection done to me where the LAW knows DARN well that I broke the HOS somewhere but cannot find it in the log book I gave him. I would rather run Donner or Emigrant in a roaring blizzard with half tanks of fuel and a failing engine than to sit for an hour and stress as the "Man" carefully examines and calculates literally every mark I ever made in that book with the pen.

The stack of unfinished laundry, unshaven face, sunken eyes and a nervous tic that comes with fatique and trembles along with a million mile mug of steaming coffee is all that the officer needs to clue in that I broke the hours law somewhere.

He never did find it. If you are reading this today officer... I apologize to you. I had my job and you had yours. (I used household miles rather than actual miles to make it all work to within 15 minutes of his traffic stop that morning) And yes, I took your advice not to return to PA the remainder of the day =)

And you wonder why you cannot keep drivers sometimes in this kind of industry.

[edbenton]

Newer turbos can handle 1300-1500 on the turbo temp but dont keep them there all day long. Boss got the download and asked us what was going on for that run constant up and down with a headwind and fully loaded did not help. Plus the fact we found out in the shop we were losing the #4 hole due to a bad injector at the time. I have to say one thing about Cat they build them to pull. I sure miss those days kind of ironic both my father and I are now on disability him for eyes and lung issues and me for seizures. But while we were a team we were known as Fed-ex when it absoulity possitibly had to get the **** there we got it. The following month we set a record that still stands 36000 miles took mutilple logs and a stuffed gorillia known as Harold the 3rd to do it but we did not get caught until the end of the month when I made the mistake of giving the boss the wrong logbook he was wondering what we were doing at the shop getting our oil change for the second time in less than a month.

[Anonymous]

I have enjoyed the Ontairo 76 TA stories regarding the Whiskey. I also have enjoyed the hospitality of Ontario (Ambassador-Buffalo) The whisky bit got me laughing today because I hope no one comes up to me asking about cheap steak.

(I keep the steaks to myself once everything is settled with claims even today I am not so sure if it was all above board although the entire company on both sides told me gwan.. take it home!)

I have to express surprise that the onboard computers would even allow Pyros to run that high. 1100 or so is the highest Ive seen and that was on Vermont's 18%er near the Canada Border. Certainly the newer alloys must be higher in heat tolerance these days.

Churn (Aka driver turn over) is a problem. Railroads dont have much churn however they treat power like a commodity. Airlines simply park the plane at the gate and find pilots to man it. Pilots make like 150,000+ and perhaps fly 30 hours a month. But when they do fly they are absolutely under great stress every second from gate to gate.

Yes I agree with the 4,000 to 7,000 cost of replacing a driver.

What bothers me is some companies refuse to replace a set of Bobtail tires at 3,000 dollars + Shop work twice a year to keep everything on the road.

Pups that run LTL usually run out of say... little rock, meet a driver somewhere 250 miles away, swap trailers (Doubles) and return. Home every night. I think some of these are union with the pay and benefits that makes it all worth while. But god help them pups in bad weather as they cannot hold the road as well as the heavies. Or bad roads.

[Anonymous]

I have certainly enjoyed reading this thread, and have learned a thing or two about the industry that I have been apart of for 35 years. I also have been reading Transport Topics now for several months.

I see that the driver turnover rate for TL (truck load) carriers has hit 136% and that rate for small TL carriers during the same period was 102%. That this “Churn,” term used to describe driver turnover, costs the companies between $4,000 and $7,000 per driver.

One expert that was quoted in this article said churn would continue to be a problem until pay for long haul drivers was ratcheted up to $60,000. As a non-expert I’d add the benefit packages might need sweetening too.

Also, from the articles read to date, I’ve gleaned that the LTL segment of the trucking industry doesn’t have churn problems.

It was also interesting to see some of the problems with churn listed in the articles read to date and Highiron’s remarks squared. Also, it seems many of the problems discussed have been around for more years than I’ve been in trucking, remembering articles from OverDrive magazine about similar issues.

If pay and benefits are fair and working conditions are decent, why would a company need driver recruiters?

I certainly see some opportunities for railroads if they are willing and able to market solutions. I think greyhounds touched on what is being done and what may be done.

[edbenton]

The 2 hardest types of fruit to haul are cherries and apricots look at them wrong and they bruise. Best load I ever pulled I was running team with my father for a good sized company out of IA we were sent to PU a load of Apples in Yakima and take them to Medford OR not a bad run but the only way we could get there was on I-5 the state rds were closed due to snow. pulled out at 81000 bs got on 5 and had a blast pulling all of the grades. Boss belived in HP luckily and still I had the Pyrometer showing 12-1300 and tranny was redlined at 350 degrees got to medford and lost a day reloading for Pittsburgh relayed the load in Gary IN to get a driver home for the hoildays. Funniset thing is that was the first time for the month of Dec we got east of Cheyanne exept when we left the house. still managed to get 25000 that month.

[passengerfan]

Can't mention the name of the company but was in dedicated service for six years from southern California to Toronto a round trip every two weeks. As an owner/operator it doesn't get a better than that I got the same rate of pay loaded or empty and most westbound trips were empty. The people at Windsor Customs got to know me so well they asked which one of two trailers I was pulling and handed me the correct number of seals eastbound. In fact they tipped me off to loads of whiskey going west from Windsor that i hauled one load a month to a west coast distributor and this was mad money for the driver pretty nice to get paid twice for the same trip. They were so happy with the ride on the air-ride suspension they used to leave a couple of cases of whiskey on the truck each trip for the drivers bonus. Used to sell the whiskey at the Ontario 76 truck stop as I could not go back to Canada with it. About eight years after getting out of the whiskey hauling business wife and I were at the 76 having dinner one evening and a guy walked up to our table and asked if I still had any of the whiskey for sale. I guess technically that was bootlegging but it sure used to make a few people very happy everytime I pulled into the Ontario 76 with the cheap whiskey.

[Anonymous]

edbenton, I had a shining oppertunity once I guess I was too young for it anyways.

A owner operator had a 379 pete with a dane spread 48' (8 foot spread) reefer and he was hiring for a driver specifically for Cookies out of Gettysburg PA-Harrisburg PA region to New Orleans and Seafood back to Baltimore. Salary roughly 1100 a week. I said salary not mileage pay. Home every saturday night until Monday AM. Dedicated.

Talk about paradise!

I showed up as neat and clean as possible with a stack of good papers for the interview. He was very nice, he had 6 other trucks on the same run. Then I tried to "Close the sale" by asking him if he knew if I was to be dispatched out... I had him leaning towards getting the rig out on the road as we both had that afternoon for it.

He leaned back and smiled, then reached over to the filing cabinet. Pulled 4 drawers open and papers fluttered out of all of them. Told me that is two days worth of applications since he ran the ad.

Someone is going to get it and it aint gonna be me. (experience etc) when I left there were 12 people waiting in the other room to talk to him. Man what a crew.

I learned something that day. I still smile at the recollection because that particular set up is really good if you can get 6 trucks on it and keep em going long term with just those two (Actually 4) customers.

I have been pondering refriegerated train service to that part of Washington State and it has to be worth something to somebody. But the railroads need to be very fast with these loads and they gotta be "smooth" not tripping over the rails and stumbling over the paperwork or slipping on the fuel puddles or getting run over by eager local drivers waiting for the quitting time whistle.

[Anonymous]

Cherries? I hauld em out of a state warehouse somewhere in the Northwest for Nevada.

Those are expensive and even more watched than apples.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed

How do the cherries from E/wash move? [:D][:p]

Originally posted by greyhounds

Originally posted by futuremodal
[

You forgot your other smiley face.

Gabe

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