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WARNING! Amtrak is Dead.

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Posted by jeaton on Monday, March 21, 2005 9:48 AM
Oh sure, especially since a member of my immediate family and several close friends are are in military service. I mean, after all that is their problem. I only want the government to spend money on things that I want.

Jay

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics

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Posted by bbrant on Monday, March 21, 2005 9:07 AM
jeaton -

So you're saying you'd rather see cuts to our troops who are fighting a war so we can give that money to a faltering passanger service?
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Posted by jeaton on Monday, March 21, 2005 8:44 AM
Modelcar

You got it. Think hens teeth.

Iraq is said to have run up a bill of about 200 billion. That's roughly $665 per person. With three in my family, that starts to get a little serious.

Jay

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics

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Posted by Modelcar on Monday, March 21, 2005 7:35 AM
....Aren't these "modern passenger services in developed nations"...that make a profit really very rare if in fact overall they do at all....
And for us tax payers paying about 4 dollars each to support Amtrak a year....Let's figure what it cost's each of us to continue this Iraqi {war}, operations and it being one of the leading oil producing nations in the world and Uncle Sam still has to "pay"...for their recovery....!! And on top of that with all this mess in the mid east....among other reasons, our gasoline prices are skyrocketing out of sight.

Quentin

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Posted by jeaton on Monday, March 21, 2005 6:30 AM
Yes Dave, just like all the other modern railroad passenger services in developed nations that never get any monetary support from their governments and make a profit. LOL.

Jay

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics

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Posted by bbrant on Monday, March 21, 2005 5:44 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

I'd rather treat them like the fire department, the police, the armed services, the street clearners, the local symphiny orchestra ,and the school system, all performng necessary services. Including the symphony orchestra.


You mentioned organizations which aren't expected to make a profit. Amtrak is a business that needs to be concerned about making money.
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 21, 2005 5:17 AM
I'd rather treat them like the fire department, the police, the armed services, the street clearners, the local symphiny orchestra ,and the school system, all performng necessary services. Including the symphony orchestra.
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Posted by bbrant on Monday, March 21, 2005 5:10 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman

This isn't a Fair System we give the Highways 35 Billion and Airlines 16 Billion, and Amtrak just 360 Million is just not Fair this year? Congress Should Give Amtrak 5 cents of the Gas Taxes we pay in Federal Taxes, I think the Federal taxes 18 cent. off of 18 cents we give amtrak 5 cents of that instead of giving at 5 cent to the Government to give it to Amtrak.[:D][8D]


Good point. Let's treat Amtrak like a welfare recipient. That way they never need to worry about trying to make money because Uncle Sam will always be there to help them out.
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Posted by jeaton on Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:55 PM
I happen to know exactly what I pay in federal and state income taxes, property taxes, social security and medicare taxes, gas taxes and sales taxes. It is quite a bit short of 50% of my income. When adding them all up, the portion going for my share of the Amtrak subsidy drops to something like .00071 times the total.

Because of a business service I perform, over 1000 taxpayers with incomes ranging from four figures to six figures allow me to see their income and tax information and I can assure you that none of them pay 50% of their income for various taxes.

The only cirumstance I know where a person may pay 50% or more of income for taxes is when all sources of income have been cut off and they have had to pay a property tax bill on a home that they have been able to continue to own. That is very rare, but when it happens none of their tax money is going to support Amtrak.

Yes, it is true that per capita doesn't pay taxes. However, persons do. If this works better for you, the average cost of the Amtrak subsidy per person living in the United States is $4.00 per year.

As far as not being well informed, perhaps I don't read or listen enough to the popular media or some politicians when they are speaking about taxes. Maybe that is because all too often the are not presenting the whole truth of the matter. And then some are not providing any truth.

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics

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Posted by gvdobler on Sunday, March 20, 2005 9:22 PM
Spoken by a true tax advocate. The per capita doesn't pay taxes. Add up all those small taxes and that's why the tax burden is so high. Everyone thinks someone else pays it.
If you ask a direct question you get nonsense.

How much of the money you make in a year should be taken from you. You are already paying over 50% in various taxes. If you don't believe that you're just not very well informed.
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Posted by jeaton on Sunday, March 20, 2005 8:49 PM
gvdobler, As I have noted several times before, the per capita tax load for Amtrak is is about $4.00 per year.
It you want to see just how big a tax bite that makes for you, multiply the number on the "Total Tax" line on your federal income tax return for 2004 by .00142.

If you don't want to do that, a word of caution. If the there is no subsidy for Amtrak and the money is promised to go back as tax refund, I'd wait to get the check before you put money down on the Mecerdes.

Jay

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics

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Posted by conrailman on Sunday, March 20, 2005 8:33 PM
This isn't a Fair System we give the Highways 35 Billion and Airlines 16 Billion, and Amtrak just 360 Million is just not Fair this year? Congress Should Give Amtrak 5 cents of the Gas Taxes we pay in Federal Taxes, I think the Federal taxes 18 cent. off of 18 cents we give amtrak 5 cents of that instead of giving at 5 cent to the Government to give it to Amtrak.[:D][8D]
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Posted by gvdobler on Sunday, March 20, 2005 6:42 PM
Remember that the government has zero money. The government has no income. The only money they have, they took out of someone's pocket.

How much of your check this week should we keep out to give to support AMTRAK?

Before you step on your bottom lip, don't say we should make the corporations pay or the rich. They already pay the lion's share of taxes. They also pay your paycheck or your retirement check.

The question is, how much more are you willing to pay?
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Posted by MP57313 on Sunday, March 20, 2005 5:33 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde
To MP57313, that may sound like a solution, but consider this, out nation's Coast Guard actually falls under the Department of Transportation, eventhough they are sometimes included in the Defense Department's affairs from time to time. GLENN

Glenn,
Actually that was just a 'point to discuss' and not a recommendation. But I do work with folks who manage government contracts. Most of them lean conservative, but are not opposed to Amtrak per se. There are some pro-Armageddon types but most are just ordinary folks making a living.
[#offtopic]The porous border between the US and Mexico, and the inability of government folks to grasp the compliance burdens of the laws they pass are much bigger issues that funding for rail service. If a government employee working overseas chooses to fly a "non-US flag airline" no harm no foul. If a US government contractor flies the same foreign airline, all sorts of justification is needed (to prove that there were no US flag carriers available, etc.).
Corporations are required to balance their financial books and records, but large government agencies, including the DoD, are unable to (and will not be able to for the forseeable future). It is these inequities that are aggravating! End [soapbox]
MP
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Posted by gfjwilmde on Sunday, March 20, 2005 4:47 PM
To all you railroaders and railfans in these forums...I apologize...again. I'm not one who can truely hide their emotions well, especially when I come to something that affects them personally...like loosing my job(again) because someone can't make a buck off of it. To MP57313, that may sound like a solution, but consider this, out nation's Coast Guard actually falls under the Department of Transportation, eventhough they are sometimes included in the Defense Department's affairs from time to time. I found this out when I served in our nation's Army. I think however, the government needs to reform itself first, before it can suggest that concept to some other government entity. I remember reading a Jane's reference book on all the world's railroads, and in it I remember reading that the French government owns its nation's right of ways and has usage aggrements with the various operating companies. That could be a concept that can be tried here in the areas that have high density corridors. However, the French government still finances its nation's railroads, so it's not such a 'free market capitalistic society after all. However Amtrak if saved or not, the fact is some people will/may loose their jobs. I've made some friends here in my twelve years, and I would hate to see someone I know get laid off all because of someone's unrealistic concepts. It's hard to explain this to anyone if you've never had to experience it for yourself. I've lived it and I've seen it for myself and it's a hard bitter pill to swallow. So once again, for all of those in these forums that are true and honest railroaders or railfans, please accept this, my humblest apologies for any of the comments that I've writtien or will write in the future. However, do me(and yourselves) this one favor . . ."THINK"! ! ! Have a blessed day!!!



GLENN
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!!
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER!!!!
the sophisticated hobo
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Posted by MP57313 on Sunday, March 20, 2005 12:32 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde
If you think it's better to spend more money overseas, rebuilding the infastructures of foriegn countries, than to rebuild the ones in your country, then you need a 'check up from the neck up'.

Hmmm. Maybe if we fold Amtrak under the Department of Defense it would be on more solid footing?
Seriously, though, you have a good point. The overseas rebuilding is being done by private contractors performing on DoD contracts. These contractors are corporations, but the funding is primarily US taxpayer monies.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:59 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by conrailman

Maybe Rob Krebs from the BNSF could do better job than Dave Gunn? Mr.Krebs made the BNSF the top Railroad in the U.S. Just Maybe he could Make Amtrak a World Class System?[:D][8D]
Ya mabe in the year 2050,When the rest of us are dead and gone.
BNSFrailfan.
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Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, March 19, 2005 12:27 PM
....From all I have read and witnessed on TV...I'd say Amtrak has about as good a leader in Mr. Gunn as could be desired.

Quentin

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Posted by conrailman on Saturday, March 19, 2005 11:04 AM
Maybe Rob Krebs from the BNSF could do better job than Dave Gunn? Mr.Krebs made the BNSF the top Railroad in the U.S. Just Maybe he could Make Amtrak a World Class System?[:D][8D]
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:46 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAAH!!!!!!!!!


I LOVE IT!!

here we go again, Right Vs. Left.

That solves a lot of problems. Instead of Debating the actual issue, we come short and insult each other because somebody doesn't believe the exact same thing you do.

GOLD! this is GOLD!

KEEP IT UP~!! popcorn is almost done!




[#ditto][#wstupid].....LOL,The average Railfan seeing some stupid topic on Trains Forums. BNSFrailfan.
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Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:27 AM
..Well we have plenty of "tax spenders"...whatever side of the aisle they are on { just check our balance sheet}, it just seems too much of it is going to places other than our own needs here in this country.

Quentin

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Posted by spbed on Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:19 AM
As I see it at this moments the rights are in control of things so the outcome this year maybe more favorable to the tax cutters over the tax spenders. [:o)]


Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR  Austin TX Sub

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Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:05 AM
....I'm one that looks forward to the possibility congress WILL find the money from some specific location in the budget to fund our rail transportation system....and also one who is disgusted with the continued and increasing spending of our money overseas trying to control the vast part of it....and rebuilding others systems...
Here in Indiana we have Beechgrove facilities of Amtrak and it employees about 1000 workers and even our {new}, Governor {Daniels}, declared he's not suporting any effort to keep the facilities....."a waist of good Money" paraphrasing his comments.

Quentin

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Posted by gfjwilmde on Saturday, March 19, 2005 3:24 AM
In addition, to anyone who thinks that I'm unAmerican because of my viewpoints, need to come to the Wilmington, De. locomotive shop and get some input from the guys I work with. You'll be very suprised. I'm probably a small group of people that believes in a true and real democratic government. Not the one some of you believe in, that's corrupted by the sins of money, greed and hippocracy. If you think it's better to spend more money overseas, rebuilding the infastructures of foriegn countries, than to rebuild the ones in your country, then you need a 'check up from the neck up'. If you feel it's better to support job growth overseas, than in your own backyard...you have issues!! So don't blame anyone but yourselves when your unemployed(because YOUR job got sent overseas or the corporation(s) bring in 'scab' labor to replace you) because YOU thought Bush was such a great and righteous human being. Enough said...enjoy the farce.


GLENN
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!!
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER!!!!
the sophisticated hobo
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Posted by gfjwilmde on Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:52 AM
Sorry it took me a while to respond to some of you. As far as religion is concerned, I'm Christian myself. Yet, if you look at the political landscape, you'll see where those states that voted for Bush are also those states considered the 'Bible Belt'. Plus, this past election was overshadowed by 'morality' issues, not the real issues of substance like: education, welfare, real homeland security(the list goes on)... I was once a soldier in this country's army and I was discharged(honorably) not because I was a messed up person, but because congress wanted to save a buck! So now, here I'm stuck with an ex-wife and kids to support and I'm traveling up and the eastern half of the country looking for work...fast! Luckily, I land a machinist job at Amtrak after being unemployed for only four months, while some of my fellow soldiers whom also were discharged months earlier, were still looking for work. Now...does anyone think after putting twelve years into something i enjoy, that I don't have the right to be p/o'd by the actions of supreme idiots sitting at the seat of our nation government??!! WELL??!! I'm proud of what I do, but I think it's unfair for someone who doesn't have a clue as to what the railroad is about to tell me how to do my job better and be more productive!! That's like me having no understanding of how to build a car, but I'm going to walk into a car manufacturing plant with some college business degree and tell you how to build it. I'm not saying that there needs to be restructuring at Amtrak, but that restructuring needs to done at the top, not the bottom. The craft(union) employees are the one's that are getting the work done...not the managers. We, the craft employees, have been working without a contract for nearly six years, while managers have been getting raises and bonuses every year. If any reforms need to be done, it's to fire every manager between the general foremen to Mr. Gunn, because I can tell you truthfully, alot of them are a waste of space...worthless protoplasm. So, can anyone understand why I react to any depressing news concerning Amtrak. I've devoted a great deal of my life in the defense of our country and got shafted. Now, I'm in the same scenario all over again. I've work many long hours, just like some of you railroaders out there, with very little thanks(although sometimes the overtime pay wasn't bad) from the supervisors and the public. So if someone out there feels my reactions are wrong, then please by all means tell me. Yet, before you do...work my job...walk in my shoes...see what I see...then see if you'll still feel the same as you were before. It's easy to have an opinion when you don't have to be the one in that situation. Railfanning is one thing, working the railroad is something entirely different. I thought that way before I started working it, and now I've realized, some things I was wrong about. I envy those of us who have to work those jobs out in the rain, the snow, the heat, the cold, the busy mainlines and the even more busy yards...I APPLAUD YOU ALL!! As for the rest of you...STOP WEARING BLINDERS!!!!!!!!!


GLENN
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER!!!
A R E A L L Y A N G R Y AND P U R E L Y D I S G U S T E D AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Friday, March 18, 2005 10:39 PM
The time not to worry about Amtrak is when the administration submits its budget to Congress. The time to worry about Amtrak is when the budget goes through the reconciliation process where the various authorizing committees are directed to either make cuts, or find additional funds somewhere. Like Amtrak and everything else the Administation proposes, and Congress disposes.

Assuming the FY 06 budget goes the way budgets for previous fiscal years have gone in the past years Amtrak may not get as much money as it wants so cuts will have to be be made. The point is it does little good to complain about the lack of resources; you do the best you can wiith what you have.

There is an old Wall street saying. "Bulls get something, bears get something, but pigs get slaughtered. And that's equally applicable to Amtrak as any other government entity.

Neither Amtrak nor any other passenger rail entity is entirely dead at present.
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Posted by Modelcar on Friday, March 18, 2005 6:33 PM
Kevin....Where's the insult...?

Quentin

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, March 18, 2005 3:25 PM
I rode the Crescent overnight last spring and was amazed at the number of people watching DVDs on the laptops or portable DVD players.

I like the WiFi idea. I'll bet you could find a vendor to do it for little or nothing.

I'll bet Amtrak's equipment leases "walk and talk" a lot like ownership - much like a new locomotive lease.

I thought the Viewliners did have modular interiors, but the execution was so poor that the modules are now premanent.

But, the overall structure of the car which is stainless steel, unless damaged, will last indefinitely.

Why no 50 year old police cars? Automotive technology has kept advancing over the years. Older cars become obsolete. You DO see 15 year old police cars in taxi service, though....


Passenger car technology (at lest for 100 mph equipment) is completely mature.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 18, 2005 10:09 AM
A car don't cost $50 million, its more like a million or two. On top of this is the fact that Amtrak sold all its assets in the previous management in a futile attempt to run a profit one year, and now leases all of its equipment. Why you would continue to lease 50 year old cars and not lease a new one for the same price is beyond me? What is truly a sad statement, is that there isn't any new equipment to lease....and why....

Old equipment costs more to operate, as little things need repair.... I don't see 50 year old city police cars or ambulances..... I wonder why? Most of the equipment Amtrak operates run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.... So when the old plumbing or the old air conditioners or the old diner's stoves, refrigerators and freezers fail, Amtrak has to pay more to keep old equipment operating.... Burying your head in the sand and not repairing damaged cars won't let the old problem disappear....

Today's modern hotels and cruise ships have independent air conditioners, allowing people to smoke in their rooms and set the temperature for their use.... Amtrak's sleepers don't have the above, the whole car is one air conditioner, the only control is the air flow.... Most of Amtrak's sleepers don't have independent showers either, while today's new cruise ships do. Other items on today's cruise ships are individual coffee makers, hair dryers, and DVD players plus TVs in the individual cabins. None of the above is noticed in any Amtrak sleeper..... In fact, Amtrak Superliner lounges still have VHS players....in a world where DVDs have replaced VHS tapes. Its already getting harder to find VHS at Blockbuster.

In just a couple of years, America will join the likes of the United Kingdom and move on to HDTV, maybe Amtrak should invest in HDTV widescreen TVs(16x9)....already most of the TV stations in America are already simulcasting analog with digital television. Most of the cruise ships and many airliners have internet cafes, why don't Amtrak lounges have computers for the web or even for video games? Yes, there is a lot Amtrak can improve upon to modernize into the 21st century.....cheap, common, everyday things....things common on cruise ships and airliners and motels......

Of course, if Amtrak moved quickly to develop HSR, it wouldn't need sleepers. However, it wouldn't hurt Amtrak to provide HDTV TVs showing movies in their coaches and lounges....and provide for an internet cafe in their lounges....

And why not develop a buffet car to widen the choice of dining onboard a train? While the diner restaurant is very nice, the cafe microwave sandwiches aren't.....






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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 18, 2005 9:28 AM
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAAH!!!!!!!!!


I LOVE IT!!

here we go again, Right Vs. Left.

That solves a lot of problems. Instead of Debating the actual issue, we come short and insult each other because somebody doesn't believe the exact same thing you do.

GOLD! this is GOLD!

KEEP IT UP~!! popcorn is almost done!



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