Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Valleyline Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 71 posts Posted by Valleyline on Monday, March 28, 2005 7:29 AM Amtrak may be dead but high density corridor services will live on and grow, probably under other management. Amtrak has been unable to break out of its one train per day mentality on long distance routes since it was formed in 1971. This, coupled with a lack of passenger related infrastructure and inconvenient or non existant passenger amenities in all but the major stops, is as much of a problem for potential passengers as is Amtrak's inability to provide reliable service. Reply Paul Milenkovic Member sinceJuly 2004 2,741 posts Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:55 PM QUOTE: If gasoline prices continue to climb over the next several years, more citizens may pressure the government for a greater investment in rail. How much fuel saving can we expect from substitution for rail or autos in intercity transport? Do you have any numbers based on Amtrak operations or European train operations? If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks? Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, March 27, 2005 9:25 AM ...It is a great loss that as mentioned above...we once had massive capacity on many main lines making passenger traffic fluid for the most part being largly separated. Example, the east - west main of the Pennsylvania RR from the NY area to Chicago area had this capacity....One could stand at a station and watch lumbering heavy freights pass and on another track a pasenger train slip by at a very respectable speed without delay...Guess we have made progress....Sure we have airlines...Much faster, but this conversation on these pages has been of rail transportation systims...and perhaps it is still viable for sections of our country and mileages to be determined in lengths and other corridors as well. Quentin Reply AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:18 PM If gasoline prices continue to climb over the next several years, more citizens may pressure the government for a greater investment in rail. Bullet trains would be practical in dense population centers but "high speed" conventional long and short distance trains that run 90 to 110 mph would be cheaper and more practical between most cities. We had them years ago running on 2 and 3 track mainlines!! Passing freight trains wasn't too much of a problem then. It's just too bad that due to high taxes and maintenance that the railroads reduced double track mainlines to single track. "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:14 PM ...Never say never...but no, I think hauling passengers via rail {by priviate business}, in this country with an exception here and there a possibility, not probability...at some time. But doubtful. By it's design of business it is really not a structure to make money. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:07 PM Just a layman's view, but I think since our economic vitality today is based on auto/highway culture, our political structure quite naturally will continue to support that. To have a genuinely profitable rail service I think would take a major economic development that incorporates rail service as an integral part of it that in effect "guarantees" profitability. Reply Edit bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Saturday, March 26, 2005 8:49 PM Do you think there could or would ever be a profitable rail passenger in the country. Take, for example, your post office analogy. When it comes to the day-to-day stuff, they're the ones most people turn to. However, they have viable competition from non-government companies such as Fed-Ex, UPS and Airborne for priorty/overnight shipments. Do you think there could ever be a rail passenger version of Fed-Ex, UPS, etc...? Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, March 26, 2005 1:00 PM ... Brian....I subscribe to running a business for a profit. And as you relate, if it doesn't produce that profit it will be eliminated in a certain amount of time. For sure no argument with those generally accepted facts.....Turn back the clock and we find the railroads of this country running passenger trains thousands of miles across this great country...for years, providing a service but with a few exceptions not turning a profit...Under federal conditions it was somewhat difficult for these railroads just to up and abandon these services and the situation finally got to a point the losses {operating expenses}, added up to make or break some roads...Fast forward to the folks that created the NARP and got the movement going that eventually {the government}, took over a smaller network of our national rail passenger service with the exception of a few railroads not choosing to join....Fast forward farther yet and we find this rail passenger service now labeled AMTRAK and it is structured to haul passengers as a service to our country and not necessarly a {business}, structure that is going to make money...It is a SERVICE say similar to what the Post Office does...conduct a service for us citizens of our great country...Don't think it makes much of a profit but we surely benefit from it...So if enough of our citizens want this service it makes sense for a country as affluent as it is to figure out a way to fund this system. Of course improvements should always be used where they make sense no matter what we do....No different with Amtrak...{Improvements, that is}....We sure seem to fund "services" for other parts of this world so why not a few along the way for our own folks... Quentin Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Saturday, March 26, 2005 11:51 AM You can't make a profit if the people don't like what you are selling. That is a major problem for Amtrak-the service stinks either schedule wise or gereral service wise and until it improves, people won't use it unless they have to. Amtrak has become a last resort; a back-up plan of travel. Andrew Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:49 AM Quentin - You mentioned that a profitable Amtrak is a pipedream. I'm trying to understand why. My thinking is that any business should have at least two basic goals: 1. Provide a good product and 2. turn a profit. I look at it this way, if I were to open my own business I would do it for those reasons. If I fail to provide a good product the result is a profit loss and evetually I'd be out of businees. Likewise, if I mismanage my business I'd end up taking a loss and have to close shop. This is the approach I believe Amtrak should take. If they could turn a profit on their own they wouldn't need to rely on gov. funding that may or not be available and could avoid the headaches of worrying about it. Just my two cents worth. Reply klahm Member sinceDecember 2001 52 posts Posted by klahm on Friday, March 25, 2005 9:39 PM The universalists will object, but I, an intermittent Amtrak patron over the past 4 years, think that it's time to try another way. Rail makes sense and has a chance to make a reasonable, tho not 100%, farebox return where the density of cities is high, public transportation infrastructure within cities is significant, or scenery justifies "cruise trains". Elsewhere, it can't possibly compete with cars and Southwest without a monumental cash infusion into infrastructure that will never be recovered in fares. But a better way cannot be legislated as a step-change. Give David Gunn the money to put the infrastructure into "a state of good repair", while commencing state consortium pilot projects to operate trains differently (contract out, public/private partnerships, etc.) in several regions. Learn from them and add more every two years for ten. Then rationalize Amtrak as we know it today into something else, whether devolved to the states, an infrastructure provider, or facilitating contractor, based upon real-world experience and conceptual experiments, not political dogma. To take a rational approach to Amtrak reform is too much to ask for politicians who seek simplistic, sound-bite answers to all issues. But, if enough folks urge rationality, perhaps something other than maintenance of the dreary status quo will result when Congress engages in the sausage-stuffing that is the Federal budget process. Had a graduated approach been initiated 10 years ago, we would now be reaching a permanent solution, without the years wasted with imaginary "glide slopes" and "mixed" trains including fault-prone rolling stock. Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, March 25, 2005 4:59 PM Fellows.....I will discuss the situation of trying to create, manage, fund and run our rail passenger system but I really do not care to thrash politics with it back and forth...Really no point in that. We won't change any opinions from this end and the same will not happen coming towards us. Fair enough. Quentin Reply CANADIANPACIFIC2816 Member sinceMarch 2005 From: SIOUX FALLS, SOUTH DAKOTA 2,483 posts Posted by CANADIANPACIFIC2816 on Friday, March 25, 2005 4:44 PM When it comes to private enterprise running Amtrak, I have to agree with junctionfan. The private carriers do not want to mess with passenger trains because they can not compete with the Interstate highway system in this country, people having two cars in their garages, the airlines, etc. They got out of the passenger business for the plain and simple reason that they were losing too much money. And even if a few of the class 1 carriers wanted to go back to offering passenger service, they would have a tough time doing it because the infrastructure, such as passenger car fleets, is not there anymore. Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Friday, March 25, 2005 3:26 PM Pipe dream or not, I have to agree with CanadianPacific2816. Reply Junctionfan Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: St.Catharines, Ontario 3,770 posts Posted by Junctionfan on Friday, March 25, 2005 3:25 PM I don't know why people think the solution for Amtrak is private enterprise. If private enterprise really wanted to do passenger service, the railroads would still be running passenger trains and you can't tell me the railroads aren't private enterprise. Let the government continue to do it. Eventually it will learn to fund things and run things better provide that the voters/taxpayers a.k.a shareholders/investors makes sure the board of directors and the CEO a,k,a Congress and the President do there job right in that aspect. You can't expect the government to do anything unless you the people appear to really care and make it a political nightmare on their part. Being voters for some time now, I would have thought you would have realized that by now and adjusted tachtics accordingly. Andrew Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, March 25, 2005 2:13 PM ....Rail passenger transportation in this country running a profit.... a pipe dream. Won't happen. Priviate or as it is managed now. It is a service not a business that is going to make a profit. Would be nice but just won't happen. Doesn't happen very many places in the free world....if any. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, March 25, 2005 1:39 PM The Federal government did a pretty good job with World War II, the landing on the moon, the building of the Panama Canal, the Interstate HIghway System, cleaning up the nation's food supply, developing the atomic bomb and a couple of other little projects. True, it is not as efficient and well-run as, say, Enron, but it is amazing what it can do. Reply Edit CANADIANPACIFIC2816 Member sinceMarch 2005 From: SIOUX FALLS, SOUTH DAKOTA 2,483 posts Posted by CANADIANPACIFIC2816 on Friday, March 25, 2005 1:30 PM Since the very beginning, Amtrak has never turned a profit. And I don't think it ever will, not as long as it is funded by the Federal Government. And WHEN has the Federal Government ever managed anything properly without screwing things up? I believe that private enterprise could manage Amtrak a lot better than the govenment..............a LOT better, and earn a profit at the same time. I am PROUD to be a Right Wing, Christian, Conservative Republican!! Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Friday, March 25, 2005 7:51 AM ....I often wonder how the authorities in Amtrak "plan" ahead of ANY maintenance work or even try to make improvements since the threat of no or less government suport has prevailed for years and years each funding period. I don't see how it has been maintained as well as it has under such "working" conditions....How they planned for anything new is beyond me. I hope it does continue and I would like to see major improvements in so doing as well. Fact remains the proposed funding level of "0" doesn't present very good possibilities of that happening. Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Friday, March 25, 2005 6:18 AM If A/Trak is "dying" why are they talking of rebuilding the NE corridor? Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply bbrant Member sinceFebruary 2001 415 posts Posted by bbrant on Friday, March 25, 2005 5:21 AM If Amtrak goes into full shutdown I won't complain a bit about paying taxes because it's not going to happen. Reply jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Friday, March 25, 2005 12:23 AM One more thing for those who complain about paying taxes. If you think the subsidy is bad, wait until you get the bill for post shut-down expenses. The government will be on the hook for an amount about double the cost of catching up on the deferred maintenance "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, March 24, 2005 7:13 AM I wonder if Amtrak isn't isn't viewed as a "middle class entitlement" and, as such, it would be very dangerous for Congress to mess with it to any great extent. Middle class entitlement programs can prove to be very difficult to mess with. In GA, there is a HOPE college scholarship program that pays college tuition for any student with a B avg or better. Most of it goes to middle class students. Attempts to change it or add a means test have met fierce resistance, so far. -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply RudyRockvilleMD Member sinceSeptember 2001 From: US 1,015 posts Posted by RudyRockvilleMD on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:46 PM This is for Jock Ellis. I doubt if too many people care one way or the other what happens to Amtrak or to railroad passenger service in general. How many Representatives or Senators have been defeated because they failed to back Amtrak? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 3:43 PM I love trains and believe people will ride them. I've always been pro-Amtrak, but after the last several years I'm about ready to say let it go. Once moving people on trains is not known by the AMTRAK name any more as someone said some train system to move people will hopefully come about in its place, maybe somthing even better. But if it doesn't, well it's sad but I guess it's not the end of the world. I wonder who will get all of this passenger motive power and rolling stock if that happens. Reply Edit trainboyH16-44 Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: Mile 7.5 Laggan Sub., Great White North 4,201 posts Posted by trainboyH16-44 on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:46 PM No...NO...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO[V][tdn][tdn][tdn]WHY JEEBUS, WHY?! I was planning to take the Empire Builder next time I'm down south from the great white north. At least there are SOME profitale trains running, right? Please tell me I'm right! Trainboy Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296 Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/ Reply rich747us Member sinceJanuary 2002 124 posts Posted by rich747us on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:49 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde It just goes to show that the priorities of our government are misguided. They are the puppets of the corporations that are carried on and break the backs of all the working classes of the world. I hope when they go to sleep at night, that their beds aren't to full with all the money they have stolen from us or they may not get a good night's sleep. In a few months, there will be approximently 20,000 more employees out on the street. I'm sure all of you neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrits will excited to know this. GLENN A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!! A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER A R E A L L Y A N G R Y AND D I S G U S T E D AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Excuse me, but just for the record..... 1.) I am a Christian 2.) I am a Republican 3.) I SUPPORT AMTRAK! It's not fair to assume that someone is opposed to Amtrak on the basis that they are Christian and Republican. Just because I'm a Republican does not mean I agree 100% with my party. Please think before you speak. Thank you. When there's a tie at the crossing.....YOU LOOSE! STOP, LOOK, LISTEN, AND LIVE! GOD BLESS CONRAIL!</font id="blue"> 1976-1999 (R.I.P.) Reply jockellis Member sinceMay 2002 From: Just outside Atlanta 422 posts Posted by jockellis on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:51 AM The smart Congressmen we have will not let AMTRAK die for purely personal reasons. They would all have to get new jobs after the next elections because their opponents would jump all over the fact that they allowed an American tradition to die and stuck in the knives. The next round of elections would be like Kerry and his Vietnam service; there would be no other issue because the current Congressmen would never have a chance to put an end to their opponents' jabs at this sore spot. Now, it might be a good idea for members of this forum who live in the various states to point this out to the staffs of their representatives by calling their regional offices. You would be doing everyone concerned a big favor. Of course, if you are planning to run for office next time, call them and say you want AMTRAK killed. Jock Ellis Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: If gasoline prices continue to climb over the next several years, more citizens may pressure the government for a greater investment in rail.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Quentin
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde It just goes to show that the priorities of our government are misguided. They are the puppets of the corporations that are carried on and break the backs of all the working classes of the world. I hope when they go to sleep at night, that their beds aren't to full with all the money they have stolen from us or they may not get a good night's sleep. In a few months, there will be approximently 20,000 more employees out on the street. I'm sure all of you neo-facist ultra-Christian right-wing Republicans hypocrits will excited to know this. GLENN A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!! A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER A R E A L L Y A N G R Y AND D I S G U S T E D AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jock Ellis Cumming, GA US of A Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.