Let's Just Give Passenger Rail Back.

[Anonymous]

A few notes...For those that say that buses (passenger trucks) are more modern than trains, I think coaches were around before there were trains. They just figured out a way to haul several coaches hitched together and put them on a fixed guideway and called it a passenger train. Besides, air travel is from the last century as well. So why does this "reverse seniority" come in to play in these discussions? I think that the word "bus" is short for Omnibus, the name of a fellow that started a coach line in New York. A bus (passenger truck) is a stage coach not hauled by horses.

Service by Amtrak to small towns...The service is no good to anyone if there's only one train a day at 3.05 am and it doesn't go where you want it to. A nationwide passenger train service should be funded to the extent it could serve many small towns many times a day. But then there's the problem of rail overcrowding, and reluctance of Class 1 railroads to put up with this.

I've had a few discussions of late with my rail oriented friends concerning the fate of Amtrak (Tracks are Back, America's First Nationwide Passenger rail Service, America's Getting into Training, All Aboard Amtrak et al ad nausium) and we've come to the conclusion that perhaps the corporate structure should be dismantled, but not the service. I feel that years ago at the foundation of Amtrak, the corporate structure was set on a course of dismantlement, and failure. No Amtrak administration that followed the first has ever been able to overcome this. Over the last 34 years the knowledge, and more importantly the will to operate passenger trains on the part of managers has been lost. And this is not their fault by the way. It has just gone that way as it has in many other service or retail companies. Unless we could have Metra take over the whole thing, and get proper funding, things don't look good. As for high speed rail, which I support, it would take less time to stuff 6 elephants into a Volkswagon then waiting for the first line to be built.

Giving passenger service back to the original carriers would have been a solution in 1974. With the government just subsidizing the service. There were enough managers left on the railroads then that not only knew how things should be done, but could supervise the entirety of the passenger service properly. Times have changed way too much for this to ever happen again. It's what we had hoped for back in the '70s.

There was, in the very beginning of Amtrak, pre rainbow era, the 7 weeks of euphoria. Passenger departments of the carriers felt that all Amtrak would be was a funding source, and joint ticket, and reservation facility. I remember early on, on the Milwaukee Road, several of the steam generator E units got fresh Milwaukee Road paint, and the Milwuakee coaches in intercity service got a nice sprucing up. I think they even ordered some new dining car china. Amtrak tickets at the time still required a coupon for travel over each operating railroad and was indicated as such on your ticket. But then came the real push for consolidation, and the Rainbow Era began. The rest is for a different thread.

Mitch

[daveklepper]

There are people who know how to run a good passengers service and who work for Amtrak. For every disaster story there are ten or twenty reports of good service, even with late trains. And changing or dismanteling corporate structure doesn't attack the basic problems. Indeed, under David Gunn the corporate structure seems to be about as lean as a nationwide system can get. The problems are: (1) not enough cash support to repair all damaged equipment and insure good maintenance of stations and good manning of stations and decent frequency of service so small towns and large cities like Cleveland can all get trains at a decent time of day. (2) Capacity restraints by downsizing of the freight railroads along with vastly increased business at the same time. (3) A backlog of deferrend maintenance on the NE Corridor. (4) the lack of a NSta-SSta Boston tunnel as regional problem for Maine and New Hampshire as well as NE Massachusetts.

Mitch's direction does not solve the problem

Just as a normal hearing theatre patron subsidizes the special costs of the lame, elderly, and hard-of-hearing who now can also enjoy the show, I say Amtrak should get 2 billlion a year from the highway and air funding programs. I think that is fair and I think anything else is cheating some elderly and handicapped people of their rights.

[Anonymous]

Dave, and folks,

The problem is there are just a few people that know what they're doing. It takes an entire corporate culture that knows what it's doing, and a will to do so. This coupled with a true mission.

I don't have a direction. I just had a discussion. I used to know what the cure was but over the last 10 years I haven't a clue. I know that when I worked in train service on The Milwaukee, in the '70s, the operation of Amtrak passenger trains was held in the highest priority catagory by all concerned. From Amtrak, to our Division Superintendent, trainmasters, dispatchers, etc. It all came from the old school of operating timetables and standard watches and time. It is merely my opinion that too many things, and people have disappeared from the scene, and a whole new culture has to be reinstalled...and inspired. Now...if that can be done at Amtrak, and proper funding provided, I'm for it. I'm just now having doubts that will happen. I believe strongly that Dave Gunn is the man for the job, and he has the knowledge and will that I spoke of. I have a number of friends that work for Amtrak that have the will and knowledge status. But from what I hear is that when the good ideas are advanced, it gets shot down. For a long time the culture I speak of would eshew anything good that was done in the past, merely because it was done in the past. One of the more recent presidents of Amtrak, as I was told, would say, "But that was then, this is now." That can be a very dismissive attitude, and in wholesale doses, very damaging.

"The preceeding is a statement of mere opinion born of experience in the field. The authoir claims not to have any magic bullet cures for the above mentioned thoughts."

Mitch

[wallyworld]

If and when this country ever possesses a political will supported by balanced budget and transportation policy, or when the cost of oil reaches a tipping point, then this country will plunge into an 1th hour mad scramble to use fuel more economically. It will happen when the latter occurs rather than the former.
If you were given the choice to choose an operator for a national rail network, I don't think the federal suits would be a first choice. The wisdom of keeping them off the short list of potential operators is bolstered by the current social security fiasco, if anything else. Railroaders run railroads best. Period. Subsidize this form of transportation at the same level as road and air. Period. Electrify intercity corridors by providing a tax break to the owners of the routes. This is not rocket science.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Another discussion on Amtrak eh? Oh well why not....

Yeah, this is our own personal version of "Groundhog Day"....

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cpbloom

No mention of Columbus Oh? Its the largest city in Ohio and I think the largest City in the US not to have Amtrak service.....I seriously doubt anyone is missing it though.

But, it's only the 3rd largest metro area in Ohio. Metro Cleveland and Cincinnati have more people. Columbus has just done a better job of annexing the suburbs.....

[oltmannd]

I think Mitch might have a good point. But, I'm not sure what the solution is. Part of the problem, getting the LD trains over the road, could be solved if the agreements between the frt RRs and Amtrak were more lucrative for the frt RRs. Right now, there is more profit and a higher penalty for being late for a UPS laden intermodal train than for an Amtrak train on the same route. Flip the economics and you'll get different results!

Now, inside Amtrak, is there the culture of a tightly run ship, or a "just get by" culture? What's Amtrak's incentive to "get it right" every time?

[daveklepper]

Mitch, your experience is important of course. But it takes time to reverse things and David Gunn has had neither the time nor the money to do the job thoroughly.

I don't nered to tell you who Doug Riddell is. Just got a wonderful letter from him. His son Ryan at 20 is doing a great job as a conductor on the Capitol Limited, and apparently that is one well-run operation. We also know about the success in Caliifornia, the Texas Eagle story. where dedicated people and/or funding make a difference. I would bet on David Gunn if he had the adequte money. Remember every year he says what he needs and gets about 2/3rds!

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Jay ... love you man, but...

I have done both in the last couple of months...the >500 mile trip in a Suburban (with family) and the indignity of having to take my shoes off at the bequest of a gentleman who can't spell terrorist, much less spent as much time as I have fighting them...(and that..you'll have to take my word for is a no kidding) ........and having to do that as an ACTIVE duty miltary person, travelling ON ORDERS...I consider to be an indignity.

By the way...I'm 6'1" and 215......I live for center seats!

But if you do my taxes for me...gratis....I'll stop complaining about the pointless arrow....

Dan

Dan

You have the travel experience, so I will accept that you have an experience position from which to make any points you wish. I will cover the buck for silence, but preparing your taxes gratis will require you to write your congressman supporting, oh say, about 2 billion for Amtrak.

Somehow, my offer sort of reminds me of the Tom Hanks character in "The Money Trap". "Will a bribe help?"

Jay

PS If you are using any of the leading tax preparation franchises, play the "in service to my country"card. Those fees are way out of line.

[jeaton]

Mitch is right about corporate culture. It doesn't turn on a dime, but I think Dave Gunn may have accomplished changes much faster than most could. Amtrak leadership of the recent past either did not grasp reality or ignored it. I will not argue that rail passenger service as we have it today is anywhere near a modern, up to the state of the art, only way to go technology. Something like that would probably require an investment of hundreds of billions of dollars, and even if the public (taxpayers) had that kind of scratch, fat chance that they could be convinced to give it up.

I think it is fairly clear that Gunn's position has been that if you want to change the structure to public-private, federal-state, new private operators or whatever you really need to shape up the existing physical condition of the business. And he presented the bill to do just that. That is the reality. Anything else is just the old magic bullet. That Texas crowd seems to have a lot of them. I wi***hey worked.

Jay

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Mitch, your experience is important of course. But it takes time to reverse things and David Gunn has had neither the time nor the money to do the job thoroughly.

I don't nered to tell you who Doug Riddell is. Just got a wonderful letter from him. His son Ryan at 20 is doing a great job as a conductor on the Capitol Limited, and apparently that is one well-run operation.

Dave,
We're in agreement with the time and funding thing. It won't happen overnight at all. It wouldn't happen over a decade. My comments are based on my personal frustration with the entirety of it all.

As for Ryan Riddell, I'm pleased to hear of a young person doing a fine job running his job. I'd like to meet him. I met a young conductor on the Hiawatha service a few weeks ago that knew what he was doing. When I was a youngster conductor on the Turbos and Hiawatha, I knew what I was doing. But it's not enough to mitigate problems with a lot of dissorganized hoo-hah going on at CUS and other not-on-board scenarios at Amtrak, throughout the years that gives me pause on their culture. Remember, their first big emergency was to change all the uniforms, re-title all the jobs, and paint the ceilings purple. From this I never saw success.

From a 1973 Amtrak employee pamphlet...
Conductor- to be changed to "On Board Operations Officer"
Chef- " Food Specialist"
Steward- " Maitre D"
Tickets- " Lift Documents" (my favorite)
It took their culture 32 years to figure out what a conductor's cap should look like.

Mitch

[jeaton]

Yeah, It is a wonder that we weren't affixiated by all the smoke.

Jay

[OnHarry]

Actually VIA is not that great. I just did a fare check online, and if I wanted to go to somewhere in Toronto from where I live, St. Thomas Ontario today on a whim it would cost me $100. return.If I was better organized and booked it ahead I get saving that allows me to do a same day run there for $82.39.

However to achieve this I have to drive my little Mazda 323 to London, a thirty minute drive during the day sometimes longer, then take public transportation in Toronto when I arrive to get to my destination.

Were I to drive my 323 I could get to most places in Toronto in two hours tops assuming I don't get caught up in an accident on the 400 series highways, which slows down traffic more than usual. It wouldn't take a full tank of gas but assuming it did it would still only cost me at most $30. and would be faster, and much more convenient.

Frankly at those prices Via is not an option, as much as I would prefer it it is just too expensive.

I have not been keeping up with railways for some time now but am just now getting back to them again, hence this my first post here. It seems to me that one thing that really moved the abandonment of rail passenger service in the sixties was the wholesale decision of the US postal service to go to trucks rather than RPO, and when the mail contracts started coming off then any pretension at viability for many trains was lost.

Admittedly some tryed to renew pasenger service, Canadian National comes to mind, but they were only too happy to hand it over to VIa when that was an option. I believe also didn't Southern railway continue to run it's passenger trains or at least one on it's own after Amtrack came into being for a few years?

As someone mentioned above until a major crisis occurs that would exclude expanded highways as an option then nothing much is likely to change.

Sorry for the rambling post I am feeling rather random just now.

[gfjwilmde]

As I read this forum, I've come to realize that some of you are complete idiots. You don't see a problem with our livelyhoods(jobs) being exported overseas. Nor do you see a problem with our government spending BILLIONS of our money on other countries infastrutures(ie: transportation, utilities, education, etc.)!! You just feel the status quo and to hell with whoever suffers under that ANTI-CHRIST'S ideology!! It's hypocritical NEO-CHRISTIAN FACIST like some of you is why this country will be on the verge of its own citizens revolting, and possibly leading to anarchy!! COME DOWN OFF YOUR SELF MADE PILLAR OF LIES AND SEE FOR YOURSELVES THE MANURE YOU'VE BEEN FEEDING US ALL THESE YEARS!!!!!!!!! AND SOME OF YOU D A R E TO CALL YOURSELVES RAILROADERS OR RAILFANS!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE TOO MANY YEARS INVESTED IN THE RAILROAD INDUSTRY AND AMTRAK TO LET PUNKS LIKE SOME YOU TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME!!!!



GLENN
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER!!!!!!!!!!!!
A R E A L L Y ANGRY AND DISSAPPOINTED AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Junctionfan]

I still say that a Great Lakes Corridor is the next step Amtrak should take. As far as fare of VIA goes, you abosolutely right OnHarry, it is pretty darn expensive for that but that's because we have a Liberal government which doesn't have a real agenda on pretty much anything. They have know real ambition other than political survival and keeping the Tories out of the Prime Ministers office.

At least VIA has introduced a new fare called Flexi-fare I believe it's called.

[Anonymous]

Can we all just get along?

[andrewjonathon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton


I would like to know how many of you who so adamantly oppose Amtrak actually travel via any mode any farther than the county line. If you haven't had the recent pleasure of a 500 mile trip by car on the crowded interstate system or had the privelege of taking two hours to go through the security drill to be shoehorned into a metal tube for a ride in a seat that is small for my 5'8", 160 pound frame, then I repectfully request that you butt out. This should be a conversation by people who travel, who are not tightly constrained by time limits and prefer a mode of travel with very low stress levels.

Hmm, that sounds a little arrogant, no matter how many stars you have by your name. However, if the criteria for having an opinion is how much you travelling you do then I think I qualify. Suffice it to say that I have lived in three different countries, travelled through over 25 other countries, lived in three of four corners of this country (excluding California) and travelled coast to coast numerous times on trains, planes and automobiles that I couldn't count the number of times.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98
sp...what are you on..and where can i get some of it...it seems like some realy realy good stuff..
csx engineer

Its 35 years of watching the quality of life for working folks be put aside for some higher goal for the nation, that somehow never worked out for the majority of us! Its called a passion to tell truths, so folks can see through the lies!

Jim - Lawton, NV MP 236

that still makes no sence.... just like your half baked idea about 'giveing" rail passenger service back....dude..what ever your one...send some here..ill even take a Redblock vacation for some of it... for what it has done to you...it has got to be some of the best stuff that money can buy!!!!
.
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gfjwilmde

As I read this forum, I've come to realize that some of you are complete idiots. You don't see a problem with our livelyhoods(jobs) being exported overseas. Nor do you see a problem with our government spending BILLIONS of our money on other countries infastrutures(ie: transportation, utilities, education, etc.)!! You just feel the status quo and to hell with whoever suffers under that ANTI-CHRIST'S ideology!! It's hypocritical NEO-CHRISTIAN FACIST like some of you is why this country will be on the verge of its own citizens revolting, and possibly leading to anarchy!! COME DOWN OFF YOUR SELF MADE PILLAR OF LIES AND SEE FOR YOURSELVES THE MANURE YOU'VE BEEN FEEDING US ALL THESE YEARS!!!!!!!!! AND SOME OF YOU D A R E TO CALL YOURSELVES RAILROADERS OR RAILFANS!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE TOO MANY YEARS INVESTED IN THE RAILROAD INDUSTRY AND AMTRAK TO LET PUNKS LIKE SOME YOU TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME!!!!



GLENN
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D RAILROADER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A R E A L AND D E V O T E D AMTRAKER!!!!!!!!!!!!
A R E A L L Y ANGRY AND DISSAPPOINTED AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if you didnt give up your senority on the railroad that you came from when amtrak was started..you got nothing to worry about...except that you might actuly have to work more for a living....
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: that still makes no sence.... just like your half baked idea about 'giveing" rail passenger service back....dude..what ever your one...send some here..ill even take a Redblock vacation for some of it... for what it has done to you...it has got to be some of the best stuff that money can buy!!!!
.
csx engineer

The first lie was that the freight railroads would run a third party's trains over their own railroad with the same dispatch as if they owned them. The next lie; this shifting of responsibility from private enterprise to government was presented as a solution, when really it was a castoff from private enterprise and its responsibilities to the government, with the idea that Amtrak would daylight itself and be gone post-haste in about 5 to 8 years.

The next lie, which confirms the second lie, is; If the creators of Amtrak really wanted to create a federally sponsored passenger rail network with legs, they'd given it a revenue source. Independent of the yearly federal budget constraints and politics! They didn't!

It was the typical rich-man pass off to government of their responsibilities, with the hope that it would die.

You know CSXengineer, every time I speak to my local's boss, he listens. If you have such a problem with your local chairman, maybe you should run for his place and make railroaders safe from non-attention!

Oh, By The Way, I have the inside story to many lies about the creation of AMTRAK.

Jim - Lawton, NV MP236

[daveklepper]

Again, a dedicated revenue source is essential. Just like the theater sound system operator and maintenance man who gets a $40,000/year salary just so the 2% of the patrons who are hard of hearing can hear the shows the way normal hearing people hear them.

Considering the gobs of money the govt. sp.ends on highways and airports and traffic control, $2 billion a year fokr passenger rail/

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: if you didnt give up your senority on the railroad that you came from when amtrak was started..you got nothing to worry about...except that you might actuly have to work more for a living....
csx engineer

CSX Engineer,

Wish you'd give us a usable name to addess you by, it doesn't need to be real, but it just seems like something like Jack, Mike or whatever is so much better than CSX Engineer!

It seems so fun to hear a railroader, that seems so anti-union, talk about senority rights and stuff. For about 15 years, Amtrak operating crews where supplied by the railroads that passed off their public responsibilities.

Those operating employees that came from the freight railroads that cast-off thier responsibilities have a hire date, if its better than your's, guess you're below them.

As with any merger, those with hire dates as Amtrak employees, would simply dovetail into the apropreate place with post Amtrak hired freight railroad employees.

Jim - Lawton, NV MP 236

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

QUOTE: that still makes no sence.... just like your half baked idea about 'giveing" rail passenger service back....dude..what ever your one...send some here..ill even take a Redblock vacation for some of it... for what it has done to you...it has got to be some of the best stuff that money can buy!!!!
.
csx engineer

The first lie was that the freight railroads would run a third party's trains over their own railroad with the same dispatch as if they owned them. The next lie; this shifting of responsibility from private enterprise to government was presented as a solution, when really it was a castoff from private enterprise and its responsibilities to the government, with the idea that Amtrak would daylight itself and be gone post-haste in about 5 to 8 years.

The next lie, which confirms the second lie, is; If the creators of Amtrak really wanted to create a federally sponsored passenger rail network with legs, they'd given it a revenue source. Independent of the yearly federal budget constraints and politics! They didn't!

It was the typical rich-man pass off to government of their responsibilities, with the hope that it would die.

You know CSXengineer, every time I speak to my local's boss, he listens. If you have such a problem with your local chairman, maybe you should run for his place and make railroaders safe from non-attention!

Oh, By The Way, I have the inside story to many lies about the creation of AMTRAK.

Jim - Lawton, NV MP236

what the hell are you babling about.... first off...railroads do run other railroads trians on their rails..but they are just as much a pain in the***as amtrash is.... also..where the hell did i say anthing about my local chairmen..now your babling on about stuff that i have never even commented on...... and i would like to know where your "inside" story is...care to share it... meaning a rescouse that we all can read...or is it just for your eyes only....becouse if its just hearsay without any hard date......
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

QUOTE: if you didnt give up your senority on the railroad that you came from when amtrak was started..you got nothing to worry about...except that you might actuly have to work more for a living....
csx engineer

CSX Engineer,

Wish you'd give us a usable name to addess you by, it doesn't need to be real, but it just seems like something like Jack, Mike or whatever is so much better than CSX Engineer!

It seems so fun to hear a railroader, that seems so anti-union, talk about senority rights and stuff. For about 15 years, Amtrak operating crews where supplied by the railroads that passed off their public responsibilities.

Those operating employees that came from the freight railroads that cast-off thier responsibilities have a hire date, if its better than your's, guess you're below them.

As with any merger, those with hire dates as Amtrak employees, would simply dovetail into the apropreate place with post Amtrak hired freight railroad employees.

Jim - Lawton, NV MP 236

wrong... atleast here it is... anyone that went over to amtrash from a freight railroad when amtrak was first formed retains thier frieght railroads senority... now anyone hired after a preset date...i dont know what it is off hand.. is an amtrak employee with NO ties to the frieght railroads that amtrak runs on....so when amtrak goes downt he crapper...the only ones i have to worry about are the few that still have freight railroad rights...which around hear are 2 people... and both are near retirment...so guess what ...im set either way....
also...since you want to make it more personal...you can address me as MR Csx engineer then....
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

I had a very good friend, 50 years with the Southern Pacific, that retired during 1986 from the railroad. He was one of two Espee engineers on that divission that provided Amtrak's 5 and 6 with direction, 14 years after its creation. They were Southern Pacific employees!

There were not any operating emplyees at Amtrak at it creation, they were all supplied from the privious operater of passenger service!

Jim - Lawton, NV MP 236

[Anonymous]

what the hell are you babling about.... first off...railroads do run other railroads trians on their rails..but they are just as much a pain in the***as amtrash is.... also..where the hell did i say anthing about my local chairmen..now your babling on about stuff that i have never even commented on...... and i would like to know where your "inside" story is...care to share it... meaning a rescouse that we all can read...or is it just for your eyes only....becouse if its just hearsay without any hard date......
csx engineer
[/quote

I'm so glad we have established your brotherly love for Amtrak employees. Your narrow minded ways have now been witnessed by 10! I was going to say by thousands, but this is not Altmont.COM.

You're a craft person...not...Your management's wet dream. I see its all about you and has nothing to to wilth the kids and learning, or the rest of US....

BYE,

Jim

• Reply
• Edit