Amtrak

[oltmannd]

I don't see why the existing Amtrak car fleet can't last 100 years. They just need to be rebuilt periodically. They are all stanless steel construction and have no fatigue issues that can't be dealt with. There is no new technology that makes them obsolete.

[garr]

GLENN,

Civil liberties can be taken away in a number of ways. The obvious is legislation. The less obvious is high taxes. Each additional $ of taxes one has to pay is a $ that the taxpayer loses freedom over. As the government keeps adding programs and/or funding ones that may not be needed, the tax burden or deficit goes up. Whether it is this year, next year, or the next decade, the bill has to be paid.

I'm also 42. I am not entirely against Amtrak, but, I am for reduced federal government spending. I have two children below the age of ten. I believe it is unwise and selfish of our and older generations to keep "forcing" the federal gov't to spend at deficit levels.

When my children are 42, long after the photos of today's Amtrak trains have faded, they will be paying for "our" deficit spending. At much higher tax rates than we pay today. Where are their "civil liberities"?

Jay

[Anonymous]

glenn for the most part we agree with you, I was just saying that it isn't all republicans that are against Amtrak. John Kerry isn't a big fan of it either, and he might have done the same thing in elimanating it. I plan on being in Government some day in the future, and I will be a big supporter of Amtrak and commuter rail, and I am a Republican. I just hope that this what a shot across the bow to make sure that Gunn is doing everything he can to save money and make Amtrak a great company. Gunn seems like a smart man, so I think that you and Tom will be in good shape.
Brad

[garr]

amtrak-tom,

Amtrak was started in 1971. Conrail was started in 1976. If I remember correctly, Conrail did have some commuter operations that were passed to some state or local passenger authorities a year or so after 1976. But true intercity passenger service was long gone from the NE railroads by 1976.

Jay

[gfjwilmde]

I apologize to anyone whom may have taken offense to my comments, but there are some thruths that have to made clear. I don't deny that even during past democratic administrations, that Amtrak had faced many cut backs. Plus, I can agree there has been a history of mismanagment of appropriation given. Yet, I can't help but feeling slighted by the public and our government even after we were the 'ONLY' form of transportation in this country that was even running, hours and days after 9/11!! How can I not feel anger from this betrayal!! Many emergency workers rode for free to DC and New York(I believe we were ordered to) where they were needed, while the intercity buses were sitting idle and every plane was grounded! Also, I'm much older now(42) then I was when I got hired, so starting over at the bottom of another railroads' union senority roster is a real bitter pill to swallow. Bush, Sr. did that to a lot of us soldiers after the first Gulf War, calling it downsizing(that was started during Reagan's administration, check it out for yourselves). He even put a lot of war veterans just coming back from the Gulf out the service, with very little warning. I at least had time to prepare myself, my ex and my children for what was to come. I sent my resume to every railroad in the country, and in four months(By God's Blessings) Amtrak gave me an interview and I started that very day! That was twelve years ago(this coming February), so you see why it will be hard to start over like this. My one hope is that Long Island RR, Metro North RR or New York City is in a hiring blitz(they pay way better than any railroad out there, plus better benefit package), since I'm an ex New Yorker(Brooklynite) and know my way around the area much better than where I'm currently residing. I just think, Amtrak gets unreasonable scrutiny from the people holding the purse strings, while the government wastes our money in Iraq on their infastructure, that's constantly being blown up on a daily basis! DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE IN THIS FORUM!! W A K E U P A M E R I C A . . . .while we still have our civil liberties!



GLENN
A R E A L RAILROADER . . . . A NOT SO PROUD AMERICAN!!!!

[conrailman]

Amtrak needs 30 Billions Dollars to get the Northeast Corridor into A Shape again, and Amtrak needs alot of New Cars 500 to 900. Amtrak needs 350 New Cars for the Northeast Corridor, New Diners and Dorms for the eastern trains, Coaches for the eastern train, and about 500 New Superliners Cars. Superliners 1 are 26 years old built in 1979, Superliners 2 built in 1995-1996.. Put the 2 on Standby in Chicago, La, Seattle, Oakland, in Case some train are like the Sunset Limited this past Summer 12 to 50 Hours Late. That my Amtrak Plan.[8D][:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

I think this time Amtrak is going to lose its transcontintentals and some other long distance lines.... Oh, the NEC will survive, possibly with a cash infusion from the states it serves..... and possibly the Auto Train....

However, I still see no vision from Amtrak about its future.... The future of passenger railroads in America is not the status quo of running out of date equipment on out of date tracks.....

Now is the time to move on HSR, and convince the nation it can afford a up to date HSR system from New York to Chicago, and further south on the eastern seaboard, plus a line from Northern California to Southern California..... All of these HSR lines if properly funded and built could turn a profit....something the airlines are failing to do......

Talk about fantasy!

Who's fault is it that Amtrak runs on "out of date tracks"? Amtrak's?

You so-called railfans going to give Amtrak a black eye for this one as well?

The call for HSR is irrational. Who's gonna foot the bill?

No one wants to pay for current passenger rail service. Why would lawamakers want to fund something many consider pie in the sky?

Amtrak can hardly get scraps now with all the hue and cry from so-called free market types who turn blindly to fed funding of air and highways - the very competitors that take most of freight RR's customers.

Imagine how much whining, moaning and cursing Amtrak would receive if it proposed HSR.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Valleyline

Those who harp about airways subsidies should check out the FAA budget. They will find that the vast majority of FAA funds come from user fees, and not from general tax revenues as does the Amtrak subsidy.

They may say that, but it doesn't mean it's true.
The feds, long before there were any so-called user fees, paid for airport construction.

Indeed, rail passengers, through taxes punitively levied against them, paid for construction of airports. Talk about hyprocrisy!

Airlines don't even pay HALF of FAA cost
Between 1980-1989, total spending by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) was $54.9 billion. Of that amount, less that half, 45.1% came from user charges. The rest, 54.9% came from non-users through the general revenue fund. -Source: Office of Management and Budget

Air passengers did not pay user fees between 1963 and 1971, ironically the year Amtrak began operation. "Airport and airway development costs incurred prior to the assessment of user charges in 1971 have been treated as sunk costs, none of which will have been or will be paid for by air carriers...these sunk costs total $15.8 billion." -Source: Study of Federal Aid to Rail Transportation, USDOT 1977

Airport expansion projects... paid for by the feds with no whining about "subsidies"
$12,000,000,000 Los Angeles Proposed LAX expansion (1/20/01)
$ 5,400,000,000 Atlanta Hartsfield International Airport expansion
$ 3,400,000,000 St. Louis Airport expansion
$ 3,000,000,000 Washington Dulles Airport expansion
$ 521,000,000 U.S. Amtrak yearly funding Serving 530 U.S. cities in 46 of 50 states
$ 112,000,000 Los Angeles LAX aesthetic upgrade

Note how Atlanta's expansion - one airport project - is NINE TIMES Amtrak's normal appropriation.

More research found at...

http://www.trainweb.org/moksrail/advocacy/resources/subsidies/transport.htm

[Valleyline]

Those who harp about airways subsidies should check out the FAA budget. They will find that the vast majority of FAA funds come from user fees, and not from general tax revenues as does the Amtrak subsidy.

[AntonioFP45]

Funny,

It's not always the Republicans. I well remember 1977-78 when I used to hang around Tampa Union Station as a teen. JIMMY CARTER was sounding the death knell for Amtrak. Senator Brock Adams was pushing for a "skeletal system" for Amtrak. We lost a few trains and that was basically it.

The city of Tampa spent $12,000,000 to renovate our historic station. Hope it doesn't go to waste! Well, it's FEB 2005, and once again I saw the Silver Star. Had 10 cars, and SHE WAS FULL!

[Anonymous]

Futuremodal...it was a question, not an attack, concerning what was the deficit level when Bush began his 1st term. Everyone will be affected by the current trends of doing away with this, in support of that, etc. For most of the country, maybe the elimination of Amtrak wouldn't make much of a difference. For example, to the northeast corridor, it would make a huge difference. We've lived thru it all before when any U.S. president who was in office proposed cutting Amtrak, and, we've always said before if that's how the gov't. feels, then, go ahead and eliminate us. Lets see what happens then. I do know on the east coast when the airlines are snowed in, their tickets are honored on Amtrak - but, we just don't want to be a "fair weather" service. Most of us here have been with the company for over 20 years on average, and we are sitting now in our 5th year without a labor agreement - no raises. We've seen that before where we sat 4 years without an agreement. But, we've stuck it out always hoping. Cost of living raises - I don't call getting 3¢ an hour, 12¢ an hour (yes, that was 3 cents, and, not 3%) a cost of living raise. But, we wait, we hope. Myself, I think I've seen 5 different presidents at Amtrak. Pres. Gunn is the 1st to say it like it is, fund us properly, or, shut it down. I don't want to lose my job, I have a wife and kids, too. But, President Gunn is correct - it was Congress who had enacted Amtrak after Conrail was formed. Conrail's actual name was Consolidated Rail - a consolidation of all of the bankrupt freight roads on the eastcoast and where-ever else. Conrail said it then, we're not going to provide a passenger service because there's no profit in that. Congress said "oh yes you will". So, Amtrak was formed, a splinter group from Conrail, to provide some kind of passenger service. The Amish depend on the rails for their long distance travel - it's against their religion to fly. Then, there are those who are afraid to board an aircraft. I don't know if that's enough justification to keep all of our Amtrak trains, but, I do know this - once we were very close to striking because of sitting another "x" amount of years without a labor agreement (we don't have contracts that allow us to walk out at mid-night at the expiration date), we were ordered by the U.S. President not to strike because we are - get this - vital to national security. And, this was years before the Sept. 11th attack on New York (I'm thinking around 1985 when this had happened).

[Junctionfan]

Glenn, if you want to work for a passenger rail that is appreciated by the government and people, apply to VIA Rail. Alot of the government takes the VIA to Ottawa for work. Former Transportation Minister David Colinette didn't like anything too much other than the train so he tried to always get on one.

Ridership is increasing and rail service is slowly but surely increasing.

[daveklepper]

Again, I think you will find that on a per-passenger or rather per-traveler basis, other forms of intercity transportation are subsaidized as much as Amtrak. Private plains, for one example.

[Anonymous]

Glenn,

In case you hadn't noticed, the Class I's are in a hiring spree. This may be the best time over for you to put in your resume at a private firm if you are out of a job at Amtrak.

[MP57313]

Whoa Glenn! Don't call me a neo-fascist!
I've had to justify and re-justify my job over the years, no matter how important it is. It's just the way this country works. Except for some top echelon management folks there are no guarantees in life.
Even if the funding comes through for this year, who is to say the slash-and-burn approach won't get cranked up again next year?
And if the worst happens....people will have to sort it all out and determine what they will do next.
I understand you being PO'd about the situation but don't insult us!!
MP

[Anonymous]

gj, calm down man, There are people on both sides of the fences on this, and who knows, you might actually get more funding out of this is Mr. Gunn does it right. I think that every will work out in the end, even Mineta said that this wasn't final, just a shot across the bow to wake you guys up.
Brad

[Anonymous]

Save our trains now. Amtrak is important and must be saved for the future. I am reminded by a sign I once saw with a little kid holding it asking "Dad what is a passenger train?" Is this what we are leaving. A world without trains.

[gfjwilmde]

I'D LIKE TO THANK ALL OF THOSE SUPPORTERS OF THIS NEO-FACIST ANTI-CHRIST, WHO WILL EVENTUALLY PUT ME OUT OF WORK!!! YEP, ONCE AGAIN, THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HAS TURNED ITS BACK ON THE VERY FORM OF TRANSPORTATION THAT HAS RESPONDED TO, "AND", HAS MET THE NEEDS OF OUR NATION IN TIMES OF CRISIS!! I REMEMBER 9/11...W E L L!! I REMEMBER MY EX WIFE TELLING ME THAT I PROBABLY WON'T BE GOING TO WORK THAT AFTERNOON. YET, AS THE AFTERNOON WORE ON, AND THE PENTAGON WAS STILL BURNING, GUESS WHERE I WAS??? A T W O R K . . . A T T H E H I G H S P E E D R A I L S H O P I N W A S H I N G T O N, D C . . . W I T H "N O" P O L I C E P R O T E C T I O N . . . M A K I N G S U R E E V E R Y H I G H S P E E D T R A I N S E T W A S O P P E R A T I O N A L ! ! ! AND HOW DOES OUR GOVERNMENT(WHOM WERE IN HIDING), AND THE PUBLIC THANK US??? THEY SPIT, #*@+. AND ^$%= IN OUR FACES, THEN TELL US YOU ARE NOT WORTHY OF A COUNTRY AS GREAT AS OURS!!! IT'S THE SAME WAY THIS COUNTRY DID THE RAILROADS AFTER WW2, WHEN TAX MONEY THAT SHOULD HAVE WENT TO THE REBUILDING OF THESE RAILROADS' INFASTRUCTURE, SUDDENLY GOT DIVERTED TO BUILDING HIGHWAYS AND AIRPORTS, ALL THE WHILE, THE RAILROADS WERE BEING TAXED TO THE HILT!! YOU CONSERVATIVE NEO-FACIST MAKE ME SICK!!! SO MUCH FOR THE 'LAND OF THE FREE'!! HYPOCRITS, YOU ALL ARE!!!!!!!!



GLENN
A R E A L R A I L R O A D E R....A NOT SO PROUD AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

I think this time Amtrak is going to lose its transcontintentals and some other long distance lines.... Oh, the NEC will survive, possibly with a cash infusion from the states it serves..... and possibly the Auto Train....

However, I still see no vision from Amtrak about its future.... The future of passenger railroads in America is not the status quo of running out of date equipment on out of date tracks.....

Now is the time to move on HSR, and convince the nation it can afford a up to date HSR system from New York to Chicago, and further south on the eastern seaboard, plus a line from Northern California to Southern California..... All of these HSR lines if properly funded and built could turn a profit....something the airlines are failing to do......

An HSR infrastructure will need some sort of user fee to pay the majority of it's costs, same as the highway trust fund and the waterways trust fund. Currently, we have an 18 cents per gallon tax on diesel fuel for the highway trust fund, and a 20 cents per gallon tax on fuel for the barge lines (albeit only on a few of the waterway corridors).

How about this: Change the Highway Trust Fund and the waterway trust fund into the Infrastructure Trust Fund, and charge 20 or 30 cents per gallon on all diesel fuel used for transportation whether it be trucks, barge lines, or railroads? The funds from this trust fund woult then be distributed among highway, waterway, and rail infrastructure projects (both high speed corridors and open access freight corridors).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by amtrak-tom

How much of a deficit did our country have before Bush was elected to his 1st term??

We had a huge deficit during the 1990's, only it was disguised in the form of the technology bubble. What was happening was that the feds were taxing moneys that were all on paper, and once that bubble burst "poof!" we we're suddenly in deficit mode. It is too bad that during the 1990's when all this was going on, the Clinton Administration was quietly eroding the viability of our natural resource and heavy manufacturing sectors via obstinate environmental laws and an artificially high dollar that killed our export sector. Once the tech bubble burst and we reverted to dependence on our old economy stalwarts, we found that they had been severely emasculated, on the verge of disappearing altogether.

It is a minor miracle that the Bush Administration was able to revive these industries, at least to the point of giving them a fighting chance, and doing so in the face of corporate scandals and 9-11. Instead of berating Bush, you should give him the kudos he deserves for saving us from Clinton's Economic Folly.

[Anonymous]

What happens to GPS during solar flares? We can't wait to see what happens next on the on-going Amtrak question - it's like having a tooth that was never maintained properly. Now, you have a tooth ache. So, do you repair the tooth and keep it, or, just yank it out? I wish somebody would make a real decision so that we can go on with our lives. How much of a deficit did our country have before Bush was elected to his 1st term??

[Anonymous]

I think this time Amtrak is going to lose its transcontintentals and some other long distance lines.... Oh, the NEC will survive, possibly with a cash infusion from the states it serves..... and possibly the Auto Train....

However, I still see no vision from Amtrak about its future.... The future of passenger railroads in America is not the status quo of running out of date equipment on out of date tracks.....

Now is the time to move on HSR, and convince the nation it can afford a up to date HSR system from New York to Chicago, and further south on the eastern seaboard, plus a line from Northern California to Southern California..... All of these HSR lines if properly funded and built could turn a profit....something the airlines are failing to do......

[Anonymous]

GPS technology is incorporated into Postive Train Control systems. PTC is very, very expensive. There is no economic case for PTC on either a collision-avoidance basis or a capacity-improvement basis. I have no idea what DOT is talking about in this case, but having GPS funded doesn't get you to PTC funded.

OS

[dldance]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain
"Global positioning program to allow positive train control throughout the country fully funded."
"Is this accurate enough? Years ago I heard this was fine for single track lines, but the GPS was not detailed enough to tell if a train was on the main track or a siding, so its utility was limited for meets (except when there was wide separation between the tracks)"
-----
Clinton ordered the variability insertion in GPS to be deactivated - thus allowing civilian usage to have the same accuracy as military GPS usage. With the use of off-the-shelf differential GPS systems - current commercial accuracy is sufficient for legal land surveys - so the use of GPS in multitrack situations has been vastly improved - but this still would not improve Amtrak.

dd

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain
Global positioning program to allow positive train control throughout the country fully funded.

Is this accurate enough? Years ago I heard this was fine for single track lines, but the GPS was not detailed enough to tell if a train was on the main track or a siding, so its utility was limited for meets (except when there was wide separation between the tracks)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by morseman

To all those who suggest privatizing Amtrak I suggest they look at
all other countries and their passenger rail systems
HIGH speed trains, Frequent service, Up to date equipment,
dedicated tracks, maintenance facilities, I'm sure the list could go
on and on. All other countries realize the importance of
passenger rail and appropriate funding for same.
I say all other countries, perhaps this is a blanket statement
but what other largely populated country undercuts and
attempts to disolve its passenger trains as the U>S>

You must remember though that all those other countries have rail systems that are either government owned and/or open access. They also have tax policies that discourage the use of private vehicles, such as gas taxes that are far above what is needed for transportation infrastructure maintenance. They use most of their gas taxes for their general budgets.

Although taken as a matter of fact, the concept of "no money making passenger trains" has not truly been tested. A private rail passenger operation would have to conform to any other business model, e.g. provide a product or service that people will pay for at a price that exceeds the cost of providing that service. If indeed there are viable rail passenger corridors, ones in which it is more beneficial for the traveller to take a passenger train than it is to either fly or drive, then that rail passenger service should be able to make money. If the costs of maintaining a rail right of way was equalized with the costs of highway and airport maintenance, who's to say a private rail passenger service could not make a go of it?

[siberianmo]

Hello all,

Once again, Amtrak is on the block. You know what? It has been that way pretty much from the inception of this so called National Passenger Railroad Corporation. There has never been a meaningful period of time when Amtrak was not being denied a place at the table. I place the blame squarely on the Congress of this country. Not the Presidents, but the legislators who pander to this or that group in hopes of remaining in office. That is not to say Presidents haven't had their share of the blame - but the Congress has let this idea of a slapped together network fester from thet onset. Just do a bit of research and you will see for yourselves. Who appropriates? Too many of these legislators haven't a clue regarding the subjects they vote on - believe me - the volume they deal with would choke a healthy horse. That's not an excuse for them, simply the truth. In reality, the damned interns are the ones who provide the "input" that either floats or sinks the ship.

We have not had and do not have a national rail transportation plan. There simply is nothing on the table for the U.S. to continue into the 21st century with a high speed rail initiative that will work. Where is the progress with Maglev? How come the high speed rail plans for the midwest are once again mired down. Why? Because of the lobby interests that tie up our tax dollars elsewhere. This is not Democrat vs Republican - so get off the dime with that nonsense. This is just the system as we know it and and have known it all of our adult lives. Money talks and the rest walks, as the paraphrase goes. Amtrak's appeal just hasn't generated the voices, along with the promises of cash (in the form of big donations) to get these legislators off their pontification stands long enough to understand exactly what the ramifications of their actions will be.

My crystal ball isn't worth a hoot, but I picked the Patriots to win and even though I live in the St. Louis area, I suspected the same for the Red Sox. So, I guess I'm on a roll (of sorts) - I don't think Congress will have the nerve to let the passenger rail system die on the vine. They will, as someone else on this thread has indicated, find the money to keep the trains struggling along. That's like putting a band aid on the enormous gash cut into the side of the Titantic. But, you know what, that seems to be the way Congress does business.

It is very easy to vent towards this or that person - whether it be our President or a Senator or a Representative. No individual has the power to klll Amtrak - but collectively, the Congress surely can. The question is, will they?

No one should be the least bit surprised by these turn of events. Surely we haven't forgotten about September 11th, 2001 and the war in Afghanistan. We are also paying through the nose for an Iraqi war that has divided us big time. I'm a 32 year vetern of the armed forces - so don't paint me into a liberal or pacifist corner, cause neither place is for me. However, I know this - we have an infinite amount of things we want to spend money on and a finite amount of ca***o pay for them. Pretty much the way we all should take a look at managing our own affairs. How many times have any of us gone out on a limb for a purchase, thinking that it will ultimately get paid - but fogetting all about the damned interest along the way. We really have huge deficits and they aren't going to simply go away. Pay the man now, or pay much more later.

Okay - enough of that. I am very concerned about the future of passenger rail in our country. I want to see it survive and thrive. I put my money where my mouth is by riding those trains whenever possible. Furthermore I have devoted my time to ensure that those who want the trains to continue running get heard in our state capital through organizational efforts and the like. Any one of us can do the same - just do it. Griping, finger pointing (including my own) and wringing of wrists will not save Amtrak. Perhaps collectively, all of us can.

The bigger question is does the American public really give a damn? No way we can keep those trains rolling based only on sentiment. I know about the "stats," and I also know all about "fun with numbers." So, I'm not impressed by these figures. The trains I ride are NEVER full - okay - NEVER. Now maybe I just pick the wrong dates for my travels, but I'm talking about decades of train riding in the U.S. Not so the case in Canada, where VIA Rail seems to be doing better. However, Ottawa and their version of Congress called a Parliament, is trying their level best to downgrade VIA Rail to obscurity.

Sad day for all who love passenger trains - no matter what your political leanings.

[MP57313]

Whoa...tempers rising on this thread. Expect some push back from senators (both [D] and [R]) on this matter; that always happened in the past whenever they tried to zero out the Amtrak operating budget.

People are more complex than the stereotypes and loudmouths you hear on the radio or see on TV talk shows. Most conservatives I know are not opposed to Amtrak; some even ride it. There are bigger issues out there...

[daveklepper]

Kerry did have his chance to show support for passenger rail at the time of the funding of the Boston Big Dig. If he had been a sincere proponant of balanced transportation, the critical missing North Station South Station link would now be in place.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TRAINMANTOM

I DONT USE THE FEDERAL AIRWYS WHY DO I HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM WITH MY TAX MONEY . ANY REPLIES FROM CONSERVATIVES OUT THERE

Well we should support both, and since a lot of commerce goes through those planes, our economy would come to a screaching halt if we didn't.
Brad