NS Crew Fired After Graniteville Crash

[edblysard]

Brad,
Your list is not a failsafe device...no more safe than a track warrant copied wrong by a fatigued conductor is safe..

What if the guy really, really thinks he lined that switch, and checked it off the list?

I line, at a minimun, 100 switches a day...and I line the lead switch for my switching lead at least that many times...
And I screw it up, at least once a day...most of the time, just before I kick a car, I look at my switch...and catch the goof, but not allways...

So, I am negilent?
After all, I just let a 170,000. lb rail car roll free down the wrong track!
In fact, I did so today, two of them at once.

But, I was prepared for that...short version is the tracks all have cars in them already, with hand brakes, so no real harm done...

But, I forgot to line a switch...so, shouldn't my carrier fire me?

Its the exact same thing you want this crew to be fired for...a switch not lined correctly and cars passed over it, going to the wrong place!

As horrible as it sound, OS gave you part of the reason there is no failsafe switch...and even those controled by a dispatcher can fail to work...and yes, there is a rule about that also

Its the economics of railroading.

Heres the bad part about our jobs...

It is less expensive to pay out the settlements from lawsuits than it would ever be to create and install a failsafe switchs, or a radio than never fails, or a invent and install road crossing devices that work 100% of the time and can not be defeted by the morons who drive around them and in front of trains.

Its cheaper to pay the survivor of the engineer or conductor, than it is to make railroading 100% safe.

Is this right?
Depends on weather your the survivor...but it is an accepted part of railroading...

Any business, construction worker, pilot, firefighter, police officer, loan officer, railroading...heck, even ditch digging has risk...

You willing to fire these guy for one assumed mistake,,,

So, what are you going to give them for the thousands of times they did it right?

And before you jump in and say, "but thats part of their job" you right, it is, and so is handling tank cars full of chlorine, which we do, by the thousands.
And, we do it right, most of the time, day after day.

Your a loan officer...
So, what if you goof, and dont do the math right, or you miss that one document that the guy asking for the loan just has to have...and because of your mistake, you end up having to deny the guy a loan.

He gets depressed, goes home, and blows his brains out...
Now, you screwed up, so his wife can sue you for being negilent...right.?

After all, your negilengence was the direct cause of this guys death...

I think what I am trying to get across to you is this...stuff happens...
No matter how careful we are, no matter how many checklist we have, no matter how many times I have to repeat things back to my engineer or a dispatcher, no matter what, somewhere along the line, I am going to make a mistake, fail to line a switch correctly, see a green when it is really red(yes, that happens too) or just flat copy and read back my track my warrant wrong, and the dispatcher fails to catch the goof either...

We have rules that back up other rules, that cover even more rules...so it takes a chain of events, several seemingly seperate mistakes, to end up with something like what happened here...

So, before you fire these guys, and pile all the blame in one place and on one crew, why dont you wait, and see what else contributed to this?

You just might be surprised at what all it takes to cause a train wreck.

You cant failsafe it...but you can count on this..if these guys did leave that switch lined wrong, I can promise you that they will never do so again...not because they never get to railroad again, but because this accident is burned into their brains...they will check, double check, and then check again just to be sure.

Ed

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by goduckies

that may be the goal of the union, but it is not the case a lot of the time, there are a lot of instances I know where someone should ber fired, but because of the unions, they are not.
Brad

Truly spoken like someone who has never worked in the rail industry. Rules exist for all parties in the industry. While the companies 'prosecute' employees for operating and other rules violations....there are rules that the companies must comply with. The presence of Union Representation within the disciplinary process ensures that the companies comply with the rules. Without the Unions the companies would make the rules up as the go along, even with the rules, they try to make rules up on the fly.

With 40 years in the industry, 20 on each side of the Union Line I know what each are capable of.

[Anonymous]

OS, thanks for the reply, I have a question, aren't the brakeman suppose to go back and check the switch when they are not going back out on the main anyways? I would think that would be a prudent thing to do, unless they would have to go more than a quarter mile. I just think that there has to be a solution to fix this. It is a very dangerous problem that should be fixed somehow.
Brad

[Anonymous]

heavyd: There is such a thing as a trailing switch, or a trailing move through a switch, but one train following another is simply "following." That's all. Trailing is not a term I've ever heard or used, but we do use "following movement" about ten thousand times every day.

Usually there is NOT communication between two trains following each other. There doesn't need to be any. The dispatcher assigns authority for movement to each train, and while they might be aware of the other by overhearing that radio communication, or by observing how the signals fall, or because they looked at a crew lineup before they left their initial terminal, or engage in chit-chat, there's no reason they'd have to know about each other or talk to each other in the general case (there are always exceptions, of course).

In the case at hand, one train was tied-up on an industrial track. The crew was off-duty and gone. The other train arrived some time later, entered the track at speed, and collided with the parked train. They happened to hit engine-to-engine, but that means nothing, as the train in the industrial track was a non-directional movement the moment it entered it. Apparently the switch leading to the industrial track was "reversed," or "open," that is, lined for that track instead of for the main track. Reason why is not yet released. The line is not signaled and is operated under a type of verbal movement authority.

There's little else to know, or worth knowing, or that can be said, at this point.

Brad: FRA has proposed that (mandated that?) already. Whether it has any actual value is debatable. I think that it will be a net negative -- the time and effort spent complying with it will detract from attention to other safety measures of equal or greater risk, plus it will require a lot of walking back and forth -- and that right there is a hazard. Railroads are full of trip-and-fall hazards, and every trip on foot is a new opportunity to find one.

OS

[Anonymous]

I didn't mean a new device, just something like a check list that they have to fill out and turn in at the end of the day showing that they completed the check to make sure the switches were alligned right. That is something that would be relatively in inexpensive to do. I guess the thing that bugs me is that it is so obvious the danger you can have by having a switched lined the incorrect way, and I have heard that it is fairly common to have this problem, then I think that there should be no excuse for this to happen.
Brad

[heavyd]

O.S. Don't have a clue what you're talking about when you say "yard entrance" and "trailing train."

What I ment was if that switch was an entrance into a yard. When one train is behind another train it is considered a trailing movement, or a trailing train, it is trailing behind. Usually there is communication between trains when they are following each other. I have no idea of the track layout or how much time passed between the first train and the second train. I am asking to find out. Did the second train hit the first one from behind or head-on?

[Anonymous]

Brad:

1. No one is excusing anything. We're not, the railroad isn't, the union isn't. We all want to go home in one piece tonight.
2. You don't understand that opening and closing that switch isn't the only life-safety item that crew touched that day. It is one of at least ONE THOUSAND such items they did that day, and 1,000 the day before, and 1,000 or more every day they were called to work since the day they hired out. Any single one of them done wrong, or forgotten, can kill someone! So if this crew has had a perfect record for 10 years, and worked five days a week, in that 10 years they have each made 2,500,000 life-safety decisions. Do you reasonably expect any human to make 2.5 million correct decisions in a row? How many life-safety decisions do you make every day at work?
3. If you want to have a device that can help make that switch, and everyone just like it in the U.S. a fail-safe switch, you'd be talking over 50,000 switches. Cost, $100,000 each, minimum, on a fully allocated basis including future maintenance, inspection, verification, etc. Where do you suppose the railroads are going to come up with $5 billion to do that? That's almost as much money as they spend every year on new rail, ties, ballast, locomotives, cars, and computers. The shippers can't and won't pay it. Then all the freight those lines will haul will go to highway, which is even less safe, or the economic activity will simply cease and tens of thousands of people will go unemployed.

OS

[csxns]

I guess we will get a web site just like CSX it will be NS -SUCKS.com if they dont get their jobs back.

[Anonymous]

I understand that railroading is a dangerous business, but there should be no reason for someone to forget to line a switch. If it is that hard a problem to remember to line it, then maybe they should make something to make sure that you remember to. It is incocievable to me that you could forget to line that switch. And yes I don't know if they are guilty of this or not, I am just talking about this if they are.
Brad

[edblysard]

But Brad,

Over running a switch is just as dangerous as the other things you mentioned...

Trust me, I work in a yard, and running by a switch can have just as disasterous results as missing a signal...after all, a switch target is a fixed signal.

You used negligent to describe the crew...
That word means "Marked by or inclined to neglect."
and " Careless or casual."

Railroaders are very, very rarely negligent...careless or casual usually means dead on a railroad...

If you are implying they are guilt of negligence, which, as applied to the legal concept, means "Failure to excersise the degree of care considered reasonable under the circumstances." then you must know something the NTSB dosent...

There isnt a railroader on this, or any other forum, that has not made the mistake of forgeting to line a switch back...there are rules that address that, both to the person that lines the switch, and any crew that is going to use or cross over that switch.

Has anyone though of the other side of it...
Not to say the other crew did anything wrong...but...
In unsignaled territory, (dark) the most important rule is restricted speed...GCOR rule 6.28..

Simply put, that rule states that when opperating in unsignaled territory, a train must proceed at a speed that allows it to stop within 1/2 the visual range of men, equipment, train, cars or obstructions that foul the track, and derails and switches lined against that trains movement...

So, who screwed up?

As for the guys being "fired"...thats SOP for any railroad..

You still dont have all the information to declare they deserve to be fired...

Do you know they failed to line the switch?

You can prove the switch was not lined correctly?

You know, for a fact, that the crew that left the local in the sideing didnt line to switch, and you can prove it wasnt a act of vandalsim?

Your sure it was negeligence?

What you fail to understand is that railroading is a dangerous business.
Every single day presents a new chance to get hurt or killed...
We follow the rules because most of them were written in blood...

You are condemming these guys out of hand, with nothing but a few newspaper reports as evidence, then damanding they be fired, because you feel they were negilgent...all without ever throwing a switch or tieing a hand brake yourself...

Are you seriously implying these guys left a mainline switch lined wrong because they were lazy, or didnt care?

Man, I hope you dont have any kids...first time one of them screws up, what are you going to do, flog them?

[Anonymous]

Zardoz and Ed Blysard must be writing in a foreign language. You've completely glossed over their careful distinction between intentional neglect and unintentional neglect. No one will argue with you on intentional neglect. But you haven't proven that it happened. You haven't even a shred of evidence. You're presuming it.

But unintentional neglect -- or carelessness, whatever you want to call it -- is inevitable. Are you planning to fire yourself? Have you stopped driving forever because you once ran a stop sign? Or because you once sped 2 mph over the speed limit? Did you ever "forget" to signal? Those are all the same thing -- and while in traffic they might get you a ticket (if anyone's looking!) on a railroad they will ALWAYS get you fired, and most of the time, someone IS looking. You're holding railroaders to a standard of perfection that I seriously doubt you would ever dream of holding yourself.

I pray you never get your way. Because within six months, at the outside, you'd fire 100% of the employees at the railroad. After that, you could move onto health care and fire 100% of the doctors, paramedics, and nurses. Then into law and fire 100% of the cops, attorneys, jailers, judges. Then into mining: they're all gone. Also everyone in construction, steelmaking, airlines, shipbuilding, shipping, fishing, farming, and every other business where people can get killed by a small mistake. Employees in these lines of work all can -- and do -- make mistakes that are negligent and can kill someone. But they're much less forgetful and careless than you allege, and besides, systemic safeguards are built in.

People make mistakes. They're human. If you demand 100% zero-tolerance on mistakes, you cannot employ human beings. You can't even employ yourself.

OS

[Anonymous]

I would fire that guy as well, when you put someones life in danger because of negligence, because you either forgot about something, or didn't bother to look, that is what I would fire them for. People are allowed to make mistakes, but when you are negligent, then those mistakes are ones were I would fire the employee. Things like overrunning a switch, I would call just a mistake, but either missing a signal( not because of conditions, just missing it), or forgetting to put the switch back lined for the main, when you know that could cause injury, is not something that I would accept.
Brad

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by goduckies

I am sorry that I was so harsh on the Unions, I just find it hard to belive that they would stick up for a crew if they found out that those guys forgot to change the switch. It bugs me that we have this we must protect the worker at all costs menatlity. If a guy screws up like that, he should be fired with no chance for a reinstatement. There are too many lives at risk for any railroad company to allow a worker to get away with that. Now if those guys didn't do it, then I take it back, But right now, there is now way that they should let the guys back on the job.
Brad

What would be your decision regarding a crew that made an error that COULD have cost some lives or contaminated a town's water supply, but because of some ironic turn of events they did NOT cause the disaster? Would you want them fired also? They made the same degree of error as the crew that caused the aformentioned disaster?

And where would you draw the line as to what constituted a disaster-causing error? Almost every mistake a railroader (or doctor, cop, pilot, etc) makes COULD cause a death or disaster, should circumstances be just right. Should we fire all of them, too?

These guys made a mistake. Just like you do. Just like I do. And unless all three of them decided to become mass-murderers that day, what they did was unintentional.

As was previously stated, the crewmen that were responsible are quite likely suffering an anguish you cannot imagine. Is that not punishment enough?

[Anonymous]

I am sorry that I was so harsh on the Unions, I just find it hard to belive that they would stick up for a crew if they found out that those guys forgot to change the switch. It bugs me that we have this we must protect the worker at all costs menatlity. If a guy screws up like that, he should be fired with no chance for a reinstatement. There are too many lives at risk for any railroad company to allow a worker to get away with that. Now if those guys didn't do it, then I take it back, But right now, there is now way that they should let the guys back on the job.
Brad

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Part of the problem here is the use of the word "firing". In my youth, being fired meant being removed from your job permanently because of a screwup on your part. Nowadays, the term seems to cover everything from layoffs to disciplinary suspensions with little explanation or differentiation.

The second paragraph of the news story uses the term "terminated" when it attributes the report to a company spokesman. Sounds pretty permanent to me, barring a successful appeal.

[Anonymous]

It was not signaled territory -- just like a lot of secondary main lines in North America. Switches off main tracks are as common as hens teeth on some of these lines. That's nothing new.

Don't have a clue what you're talking about when you say "yard entrance" and "trailing train."

OS

[heavyd]

Anyone know what kind of signalling they use in that territory? Usually if a main-line switch is reversed you get some kind of restrictive signal before it. Anyone know about where it was, like at an interlocking or yard entrance or whatever? I just have a hard time thinking how a trailing train could just take that switch with out knowing it was reversed unless it was dark territory?

[Anonymous]

That could be in other businesses, CSS, I wouldn't know a thing about that. But railroads have always been like this -- at least as far back as all the old heads can remember, and there's a few I know with seniority dates in the 1940s, still. When you're fired at the railroad, though, you are usually well-and-truly fired (as opposed to suspended without pay). The railroad doesn't have to hire you back. But sometimes they will, and offer you your seniority back, too.

OS

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Part of the problem here is the use of the word "firing". In my youth, being fired meant being removed from your job permanently because of a screwup on your part. Nowadays, the term seems to cover everything from layoffs to disciplinary suspensions with little explanation or differentiation.

[Justicar]

For the civilians out there, the slightest incident can result in the employee(s) being "held out of service" pending formal investigation. Examples would be run thru a switch or corner a car. Either might result in very little damage, if any, but they are serious matters in the company's eyes. If your actions or any of your crew member's actions directly contributed to a cardinarl rule violation you'll not be allowed to work until the investigation is held. It can take several days for them to schedule an investigation and then several more days before it actually happens. Being out of service for a week or two is common. You are not paid for this time off unless you are not found guilty. Some employees pay for "can insurance" to cover the loss of income from being held of out service and subsequently being "fired" or suspended for 5, 10, 30 days or more. Engineers typically get harsher penalties and endure more time off.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Ed. There is quite a bit of speculation going on around this whole incident. We really have no idea of knowing what even happened that day as he said. I'm sure the results of the NTSB won't be out for some time. Innocent until proven guilty should still prevail, especially when death and peoples emotions are so high about a given subject!
I understand this is easy for me to say, not really having a direct connection to the situation. But nevertheless, rushing to judgement, either on our parts or on NS's part is not in anyone's best interest here.

Time and investigation will come to the root of the problem and the necessary actions can be taken at that time, not now.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Good duck...
No one has the offical NTSB ruling or findings...
Because they are not finished with their investigation...

Fired at a railroad means lots of different things,,, everything from being suspended for 30, 60 or 90 days...to fired for good, meaning no matter what the union does, your gone.

Now, all the "facts" we have in connection with this accident are what we have read here in this forum, seen on TV and read in newspapers, and we all know how good the latter two are at getting facts correct!

We can spectulate as to what was said between the crew members, wether the engineer was told the switch was lined back for the main or not....did the brakeman and conductor fail in their duties...but in the end, not a one of us were present and witness to the events...so its all educated guessing.

As for being prosecuted in the criminal justice system, sure, it can, and most likely will happen...and the civil justice system will have a lot of lawsuits filed, lots of wrongful death suits, loss of property, on and on and on..
which is why NS has fired them, to distance themselves from them, and put the carrier in the position of being able to say they took action against the crew...PR and legal butt covering.

But think about this, before you pass judgement on the crew...

I would bet my bottom dollar that they have, and will continue to have a deep, long lasting hurt about the death of civilians, and the knowledge that what happened resulted in the death of two of their co-workers will haunt them to the grave.

The blame and anger you heap upon them is nothing compaired to what they will whip themselves with, for the rest of their lives...

Until you stand there, looking first hand at the end result of this kind of mistake...and looking into the eyes of the guys who caused it, you really shouldn't judge them....

When its your turn in the spotlight....how would you like to be tried, jugded, found guilty, and sentenced, all before the people who are doing the investigating even fini***heir investigation?

Ed

You are a man of great heart and an even temper. Your writing reflects the greatest respect and admiration for those that have it on the line every day working for a living. Well said!!

[Anonymous]

Can we stop with the union-bashing already? Is it some sort of PC thing these days to hate unions, and if you don't you're not a patriot or something? The company freely entered into a contract. No one held a gun to the company's head. If they didn't like it, they could have sold the property to someone else and gotten into a more gentle line of work, like pizza making. The union is doing its job grieving the firing. The railroad is doing its job enforcing the operating rules. Let's let the contract govern.

On a railroad, you can make an error that can kill someone every day -- every minute. Your average dispatcher is making 100-500 decisions every night that if made wrong can easily result in someone's death. An engineer, conductor, switch foreman? Them too. Signal maintainers, roadmasters, car men? All of them as well. Every one of them making decisions governed by a rule that if made wrong can result in death. Sooner or later almost everyone at a railroad is going to make a rules violation. It's a matter of odds catching up with you. You can't be perfect 100% of the time. That's why most people in the running trades carry job insurance.

If you were to permanently fire everyone at a railroad every time they made any rules violation whatsoever, by now you would have fired the entire population of Planet Earth. It's a dangerous and tough business. It isn't for everyone. No one wants to see anyone get hurt, and railroaders work their butts off to be safe and make sure it never happens. But occasionally it does happen. Let the legal system file a manslaughter charge, and if they can make it stick, then that's one thing. If you fire one person permanently for a rules violation, you'll have to fire everyone permanently. To do otherwise is flatly illegal. You can't ask the railroad to do something illegal, and you can't ask them to do something impractical, either.

The railroad has many safeguards built in so that most rules violations result in no harm. Every once in awhile, a terrible thing happens and people get killed. But you can't punish unequally. The punishment the company metes out for a rules violation can't be excessive just because of a exceptionally bad result or because you're mad at him (the law works the same way, too -- it doesn't have a clause that says you get extra punishment for killing a nice person vs. killing a jerk).

Brad, are people in banking perfect? And make perfect decisions 100% of the time? Probably not. Humans are the same everywhere. But in some jobs, like railroads, mistakes can result in someone's death. If you want to hold railroaders -- and truckers, pilots, paramedics, cops, military officers, doctors, etc., to a standard of 100% perfection, or get fired, I'm afraid you won't have any railroads, trucks, airlines, health care, law enforcement, or national defense. Because no one is going to do those jobs, and undertake that kind of risk, at the kind of pay that's being offered.

OS

[edblysard]

Good duck...
No one has the offical NTSB ruling or findings...
Because they are not finished with their investigation...

Fired at a railroad means lots of different things,,, everything from being suspended for 30, 60 or 90 days...to fired for good, meaning no matter what the union does, your gone.

Now, all the "facts" we have in connection with this accident are what we have read here in this forum, seen on TV and read in newspapers, and we all know how good the latter two are at getting facts correct!

We can spectulate as to what was said between the crew members, wether the engineer was told the switch was lined back for the main or not....did the brakeman and conductor fail in their duties...but in the end, not a one of us were present and witness to the events...so its all educated guessing.

As for being prosecuted in the criminal justice system, sure, it can, and most likely will happen...and the civil justice system will have a lot of lawsuits filed, lots of wrongful death suits, loss of property, on and on and on..
which is why NS has fired them, to distance themselves from them, and put the carrier in the position of being able to say they took action against the crew...PR and legal butt covering.

But think about this, before you pass judgement on the crew...

I would bet my bottom dollar that they have, and will continue to have a deep, long lasting hurt about the death of civilians, and the knowledge that what happened resulted in the death of two of their co-workers will haunt them to the grave.

The blame and anger you heap upon them is nothing compaired to what they will whip themselves with, for the rest of their lives...

Until you stand there, looking first hand at the end result of this kind of mistake...and looking into the eyes of the guys who caused it, you really shouldn't judge them....

When its your turn in the spotlight....how would you like to be tried, jugded, found guilty, and sentenced, all before the people who are doing the investigating even fini***heir investigation?

Ed

[Anonymous]

that may be the goal of the union, but it is not the case a lot of the time, there are a lot of instances I know where someone should ber fired, but because of the unions, they are not.
Brad

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by goduckies

i know that it is different, but it shouldn't be, if that crew failed to do their job, and caused an inury let alone all those deaths, they should be out of a job period. I think that it is gutless that the Unions are already fighting their being put on leave, or what ever they gave them. That is one of the problems I have with unions, is that you have no accountability. The place where I work, I would get fired if I didn't get my job done, in a union, nothing would happen to me.
Brad

That's not entirely true. There is accountability, unions are there to make sure everything and everyone is treated fairly. Discipline is still handed out, people are still fired. The union just makes sure management doesn't step over the boundries or single out people for wrong reasons.

[Anonymous]

i know that it is different, but it shouldn't be, if that crew failed to do their job, and caused an inury let alone all those deaths, they should be out of a job period. I think that it is gutless that the Unions are already fighting their being put on leave, or what ever they gave them. That is one of the problems I have with unions, is that you have no accountability. The place where I work, I would get fired if I didn't get my job done, in a union, nothing would happen to me.
Brad

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by goduckies

QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull

The union agreements state that after an incident takes places that warrants a possible company investigation, the carrier has 30 days to decided to call one or not. After the testimony takes place by crewmembers involved, union reps, carrier witnesses and perhaps others, then the carrier has 30 days to hand down any suspensions. To say that the NS crew involved was "fired" is not totally correct. They may have been pulled out of service for thetime being. It will be probably another 4-6 wks until a final decision is made on the issue. This is the general prodedure that takes place when bads things happen out on the ballast.

For them not to do their work, and actually check that the switch was alligned wright is criminal, they can get tried for criminal negligence for that, and should. There is no excuse for not checking on that when you know what is at stake. If in my line of work, I funded a loan without checking if I had the right wire info, I would be fired on the spot, and so should they.
Brad

It's different when there are unions involved.... nobody gets fired on the spot. Well, you might get fired but it will be grieved.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull

The union agreements state that after an incident takes places that warrants a possible company investigation, the carrier has 30 days to decided to call one or not. After the testimony takes place by crewmembers involved, union reps, carrier witnesses and perhaps others, then the carrier has 30 days to hand down any suspensions. To say that the NS crew involved was "fired" is not totally correct. They may have been pulled out of service for thetime being. It will be probably another 4-6 wks until a final decision is made on the issue. This is the general prodedure that takes place when bads things happen out on the ballast.

For them not to do their work, and actually check that the switch was alligned wright is criminal, they can get tried for criminal negligence for that, and should. There is no excuse for not checking on that when you know what is at stake. If in my line of work, I funded a loan without checking if I had the right wire info, I would be fired on the spot, and so should they.
Brad

[Anonymous]

The union agreements state that after an incident takes places that warrants a possible company investigation, the carrier has 30 days to decided to call one or not. After the testimony takes place by crewmembers involved, union reps, carrier witnesses and perhaps others, then the carrier has 30 days to hand down any suspensions. To say that the NS crew involved was "fired" is not totally correct. They may have been pulled out of service for thetime being. It will be probably another 4-6 wks until a final decision is made on the issue. This is the general prodedure that takes place when bads things happen out on the ballast.