Trains.com

Northrop Grumman To Study DARPA Concept For Lunar Railroad

4885 views
53 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    July 2008
  • 2,325 posts
Northrop Grumman To Study DARPA Concept For Lunar Railroad
Posted by rdamon on Thursday, March 21, 2024 9:18 AM

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/space/northrop-grumman-study-darpa-concept-lunar-railroad

https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/releases/northrop-grumman-to-develop-concept-for-lunar-railroad

Northrop Grumman’s study will:

  • Define the interfaces and resources required to build a lunar rail network.
  • Establish a critical list of foreseeable cost, technological and logistical risks. 
  • Identify prototypes, demonstrations and analyses of a fully operating lunar rail system’s concept design and architecture.
  • Explore concepts for constructing and operating the system with robotics, including grading and foundation preparation, track placement and alignment, joining and finishing, inspection, maintenance and repair.

 

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • 299 posts
Posted by adkrr64 on Thursday, March 21, 2024 9:22 AM

The whole idea is sheer lunacy.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 21, 2024 9:26 AM

Mining the Moon may solve USA and Canadian shortages of rare-earth metals required for many communications and transpotation applications.

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Thursday, March 21, 2024 9:54 AM

With hardly any gravity, what would that do for tractive effort?

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Thursday, March 21, 2024 9:56 AM

adkrr64

The whole idea is sheer lunacy.

 

I see what you did there...Big Smile

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, March 21, 2024 10:03 AM

daveklepper

Mining the Moon may solve USA and Canadian shortages of rare-earth metals required for many communications and transpotation applications.

 
But the costs would be astronomical.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Thursday, March 21, 2024 10:14 AM

Don't know what the job would pay, but you'd make out like a bandit on the deadhead. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • 351 posts
Posted by ns145 on Thursday, March 21, 2024 10:54 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

 

 
daveklepper

Mining the Moon may solve USA and Canadian shortages of rare-earth metals required for many communications and transpotation applications.

 

 

 
But the costs would be astronomical.
 

It would cost billions AND billions of dollars.

 

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Thursday, March 21, 2024 11:03 AM

Seems likke the liky extension to what we now enjoy in our 'National CapitaL'...a plot to just dig us deeper and deeper into another hole. 

 

 


 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Thursday, March 21, 2024 12:16 PM

Backshop
With hardly any gravity, what would that do for tractive effort?

Six times the load for a given contact patch...

The braking inertia of course is higher, so expect magnetic track brakes.  No air for cheap braking anyway.

And if you need better physical TE, there's always inspiration from our fellow toy-train enthusiasts... Magne-Traction!

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, March 21, 2024 1:24 PM

Overmod

 Backshop

With hardly any gravity, what would that do for tractive effort?

 The braking inertia of course is higher, so expect magnetic track brakes.  No air for cheap braking anyway.

And if you need better physical TE, there's always inspiration from our fellow toy-train enthusiasts... Magne-Traction!

 
Gravity or lack of gravity means cannot use earth type RRs.  Any change in direction either horizontal or verticle train goes off track.  So, locos and cars must have some kind of positive contact up and down and sideways with rails at all times to prevent lift off of rails.  But the rails and cross ties then would also need to be anchored for every crosstie & rail to solid moon. 
 
No cooling available from air causes major engineering work for propulsion, friction, and braking.
 
For tractive effort and braking best use a rack RR.
 
For rails cannot use CWR as kinks and pull aparts due to extreme temperature changes with alternate 14 days of sun and then 14 days dark.  Miter joints every 20 feet?
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 1,530 posts
Posted by NKP guy on Thursday, March 21, 2024 1:28 PM

Will they be using the same consultants and contractors as California's High Speed Rail Project? And what about the NIMSSs (not in my solar system)?

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • 2,325 posts
Posted by rdamon on Thursday, March 21, 2024 2:22 PM

Will all signal aspects be lunar?

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,020 posts
Posted by tree68 on Thursday, March 21, 2024 2:22 PM

Didn't Model Railroader have an article about this some years back?

Cost would be no object, as long as there's enough ink for the presses...

 

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Thursday, March 21, 2024 6:49 PM

NKP guy
Will they be using the same consultants and contractors as California's High Speed Rail Project?

Don't be silly; this is military-grade rocket science, involving some of the finest engineers in the world.  Of course it will be orders of magnitude less expensive than CAHSR. 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Thursday, March 21, 2024 7:11 PM

blue streak 1
Gravity or lack of gravity means cannot use earth type RRs.  Any change in direction either horizontal or verticle train goes off track.

The Moon isn't an asteroid -- it has very efffective gravity, just weaker than Earth's.  The obvious way to increase 'curving speed' is to use increased superelevation... with vacuum-cementing of ballast and so on.

... So, locos and cars must have some kind of positive contact up and down and sideways with rails at all times to prevent lift off of rails.

One approach is to use a Fell-style method on a reaction rail -- two sets of sprung wheels bearing on the web and underside of the railhead.  Provide the electromagnetic braking either side of these wheels if you want to keep this separate from the 'running' support rails...

But the rails and cross ties then would also need to be anchored for every crosstie & rail to solid moon.

Gravity would hold them adequately, presuming correct design at the ends of the 'ties' -- but I suspect that's not what would be used; it would be some kind of cast slab-track in sections, with positive anchoring as well as shims allowing the counterpart of top-down alignment of the rail structure.

No cooling available from air causes major engineering work for propulsion, friction, and braking.

Propulsion would probably be hydrogen fuel cells, with the water exhaust serving very nicely if something is needed for heat transfer.  Radiators are VERY effective in the lunar environment, where one side will always be dark at effectively hundreds of degrees below zero.  You will certainly not be using air brakes, or even hydraulic brakes, but eddy-current braking is completely adequate (even if you need coordinated inverter drive for the axles).

For tractive effort and braking best use a rack RR.

As noted, the Fell system is better than a lateral rack, and of course a vertical rack fails even worse than adhesion.  But if you are using a center reaction rail for LIM, your acceleration and braking are handled directly from the 'motor' windings in the train, so... not an issue.

For rails cannot use CWR as kinks and pull aparts due to extreme temperature changes with alternate 14 days of sun and then 14 days dark.  Miter joints every 20 feet?

The insolation equivalent of snowsheds.  Or underground construction in cut-'n-cover with some sort of reflective membrane handling the thermal gain.  The same sort of anchor to permafrost used on the Alaska Pipeline construction could quite easily be used to keep near a 'neutral' temperature for continuous rail of any necessary length, with perfectly straightforward breaks, miter ended or otherwise, between sections.

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • 1,686 posts
Posted by Erik_Mag on Thursday, March 21, 2024 10:51 PM

blue streak 1

For rails cannot use CWR as kinks and pull aparts due to extreme temperature changes with alternate 14 days of sun and then 14 days dark.  Miter joints every 20 feet?

I remember thinking about what it would take to build a railroad on the moon and one of the first challenges was how to deal with thermal expansion/contraction. It then occurred to me that rocks would have similar problems - repeated thermal cycles would break the surface into little pieces. My next thought was: that's why the lunar regolith is a coarse powder.

I like OM's idea of "snowshed", especially if there is a heap of lunar regolith on top. The heap of regolith would accomplish two things. First is the thermal mass would even out the temperature underneath. Second is that a meter or two of regolith would be a passable radiation shield providing some protection against the normal background radiation levels of space as well as solar flares. The earth's atmosphere is roughly equivalent to 15 feet of concrete with respect to radiation shielding.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Friday, March 22, 2024 8:12 AM

Keep in mind that the Northrop Grumman study for DARPA is part of the LunA-10 framework of development, which is being worked out by these guys:

https://lsic.jhuapl.edu/

with DARPA saying they are inspired by

https://www.pwc.com.au/industry/space-industry/lunar-market-assessment-2021.pdf

I forget how old I was when I came across Neil Ruzic's 'The Case for Going to the Moon', but I became convinced then, and still am, that sensible Lunar development ought to be undertaken... as long as it doesn't devolve into the usual kinds of finance oligarchy.  I note that the current thinking does call for 'surface construction' of a network of lines, rather than in deep tunnels or even with the overburden Erik mentions against flare or CME events.    Be interesting to see what detail design and options they come up with.

I confess I'll be eagerly watching for Don Oltmann's 'railroading in 2060' blog post about a typical day's work up there.

  • Member since
    March 2018
  • 145 posts
Posted by Ed Kyle on Friday, March 22, 2024 9:13 AM

The problem with the idea of exploiting lunar resources is the assumption that any single entity or country "owns" the resources.  There is no law for the Moon, no agreed upon international treaties, etc.  Wild Wild West.  No guarantee that if you build it someone won't take it or tear it up, etc.

 - Ed Kyle

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • From: Flyover Country
  • 5,557 posts
Posted by York1 on Friday, March 22, 2024 9:22 AM

I own one square foot of the moon.  It was purchased for me by my daughter for my 60th birthday.

I'd appreciate it if everyone would respect my wishes and stay off my property.

York1 John       

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,900 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, March 22, 2024 12:38 PM

tree68

Didn't Model Railroader have an article about this some years back?

Cost would be no object, as long as there's enough ink for the presses...

 

 

I remember that article. I looked up the issue date, April 1978. I was pretty sure it was an April issue, but I was thinking 1976.

April being the key indicator. 

Starting from scratch on the moon, it could provide a market for autonomous rail cars.  

Jeff 

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,020 posts
Posted by tree68 on Friday, March 22, 2024 1:59 PM

Ed Kyle
There is no law for the Moon, no agreed upon international treaties, etc. 

I suspect there's an element of "whodathunkit" involved there.

Should someone attempt to lay claim to it, I'm not sure anyone else would respect that claim.  Something like Antarctica would probably be the end result.

That MR article was, indeed, the April issue (as I recalled when I posted that), lending a shade of "April Fools" to it.  As we can see, however, the possibility is increasingly real.

I wonder if the technology used on roller coasters might not be useful.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Friday, March 22, 2024 5:47 PM

York1
I own one square foot of the moon.  It was purchased for me by my daughter for my 60th birthday.

I'd appreciate it if everyone would respect my wishes and stay off my property.

And here I was thinking you could put up a cam and become as famous as Fostoria...

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • From: Flyover Country
  • 5,557 posts
Posted by York1 on Friday, March 22, 2024 6:11 PM

Overmod
York1
I own one square foot of the moon.  It was purchased for me by my daughter for my 60th birthday.

I'd appreciate it if everyone would respect my wishes and stay off my property.

York1 John       

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,020 posts
Posted by tree68 on Friday, March 22, 2024 6:24 PM

York1
Actually, I have high hopes my square foot will lie on the route of the moon train, and I can hold out for millions.

Are you calling it "Rock Ridge?"

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    February 2018
  • From: Flyover Country
  • 5,557 posts
Posted by York1 on Friday, March 22, 2024 6:46 PM

tree68

 

York1
Actually, I have high hopes my square foot will lie on the route of the moon train, and I can hold out for millions.

Are you calling it "Rock Ridge?"

 

I have Hedley Lamarr on my advisory board.

York1 John       

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, March 22, 2024 7:23 PM

tree68
 
York1
Actually, I have high hopes my square foot will lie on the route of the moon train, and I can hold out for millions. 

Are you calling it "Rock Ridge?"

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Sunny (mostly) San Diego
  • 1,920 posts
Posted by ChuckCobleigh on Saturday, March 23, 2024 2:42 PM

Surprised nobody has mentioned this study so far.

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,900 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, March 23, 2024 5:22 PM

Ed Kyle

The problem with the idea of exploiting lunar resources is the assumption that any single entity or country "owns" the resources.  There is no law for the Moon, no agreed upon international treaties, etc.  Wild Wild West.  No guarantee that if you build it someone won't take it or tear it up, etc.

 - Ed Kyle

 

Actually there is a treaty regarding the moon.  It's covered in a broad treaty for outer space.  Those party to the treaty agree that no single country can claim ownership of the moon or other heavenly bodies.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/who-owns-moon

Jeff

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Saturday, March 23, 2024 10:02 PM

(Deleted)

 

 


 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy