Attempt at derailment

[CMStPnP]

Oops someone beat me to the comment.

[alphas]

I don't remember the details but you are correct about the passenger train.     I do remember in was in the middle of nowhere.     At the time it was reported that whoever did it had a working knowledge of railroading so the thought was an employee or ex-employee was the most likely suspect.     There was evidence an off highway vehicle was used to access the site but it was never found.     At this point it is highly unlikely we will ever know who did it.    I believe there has not been a fatality from an intentional wreck of a US passenger train since then.

[mudchicken]

caldreamer

Wasn't there an intentional derailment of an SP passenger train years ago in the southwest? As I remember there were fatalities and no one was ever caught.  

Phoenix / east leg of main track wye [Amtrak]

[caldreamer]

Wasn't there an intentional derailment of an SP passenger train years ago in the southwest? As I remember there were fatalities and no one was ever caught.

[BaltACD]

Sabotage to rail facilities has been around since the B&O built its first track segment from Mt. Clare to Ellicotts Mills.  

I believe one of the City streamlines was derailed in Arizona or New Mexico during the war when a rail was removed and signals configured to hid it.  I don't believe any was apprehended for the crime.

Those with 'enough knowldege' can do a lot of damage if they want to.  With the expanse of transportation routes that exist, in ALL FORMS of transportation from pipelines, waterways, highways, railroads and airways - not every foot of route can be inspected for sabotage for before the passage of every vehicle.

[Overmod]

I haven't forgotten the two women caught trying to cause collisions by messing with signals -- not too long ago.

Funny how we never heard about them being tried under 18 USC.

I have just been reading the opened NTSB docket for the BNSF Marshall District wreck near Raymond, MN at the end of March.  Catastrophic derailment and fire from 43mph, caused by... a broken rail.  We have a thread going on a fatal bridge collapse caused by... a broken rail.  Can it be that difficult to provoke similar effects with malice aforethought?

[tree68]

Euclid

Using a vehicle to derail a train may be easy to pull off, but it will not meet the terrorist’s objective in many cases.

They weren't terrorist actions, but Lac Megantic, Graniteville, and East Palatine would certainly fit the bill.

Their objective is to create a situation that gets everyone's attention, then claim responsibility for it.  Wrecking a passenger train would certainly qualify, but so would a hazmat incident in a populated area.

One must remember that the sabotage of old (ie, wartime) was conducted to interrupt the enemy's ability to wage war (ie, move materiel).  Terrorism today is to gain attention to the "cause," whatever it may be.  

[NittanyLion]

Presuming there's much of anyone to catch in the first place.

It has been, what, 28 years since anyone's actually pulled it off, despite the relative straightforward process involved?  That says either existing security measures work or there's nothing to prevent in the first place.

[J. Bishop]

Trains can derail for other reasons, and a terrorist act doesn't do anything for the terrorists unless they claim credit for it. Making the claim would be problematic for whoever does it.  

Of course, there is always the danger that some derranged individual will decide to strike out at what they see as the enemy, but such are not likely to reason out the best place to do it for the most damage. A rural area may seem a safer place to do it and not get caught And they have to know what they are doing to have a good chance of "success." A disgrunted ex-RR employee with a grudge seems a greater risk from this perspective.

That said, drone flights along the track may be the best way to catch anyone trying. 

[BaltACD]

CMStPnP

 

tree68

But why bother with hiding?  There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train.  In fact, it goes on every week.  Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing?  How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse? 

True but also lets not also discount the signal maintainer that both uses and forgets to remove a shunt after their work is done.    I know it's rare but it also has happened in the past.    As well as just plain crossing signal failure.

To err is human.  Last time I looked, we all think we are human.

[jeffhergert]

Most likely a terrorist attempt to derail a train is going to be directed towards a passenger train in a heavily populated area.  Most likely a commuter train in a major metropolitan area.  An attempt at a long distance Amtrak train in the middle of a rural area, while possible, is unlikely.  It doesn't rise to the same level as an attack where there's lots of people and lots of media.

The same with attacking a freight train carrying hazmat.  It's not as scary out in the rural areas.  There are plenty of opprotunities in metro and terminal areas to do harm against a hazmat car.  They may sit in a yard or in a train stopped for a variety of reasons.  Hazmat cars are well marked and their empty/load status can usually be determined by looking at the car.

So I would say the majority of threats would be in or near the higher populated areas.  That's where better security measures and inspectionswould be more beneficial.

Jeff

[CMStPnP]

tree68

But why bother with hiding?  There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train.  In fact, it goes on every week.  Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing?  How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse?

True but also lets not also discount the signal maintainer that both uses and forgets to remove a shunt after their work is done.    I know it's rare but it also has happened in the past.    As well as just plain crossing signal failure.

[Euclid]

Backshop

 

 

tree68

Like I said, someone wanting to derail a train is going to wait until the scout hi-rail passes before causing mayhem.

But why bother with hiding?  There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train.  In fact, it goes on every week.  Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing?  How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse?

Recall that some years ago, a truck hauling steel was struck by a train - it was a mess (Illinois, IIRC).

Mr Terrorist doesn't have to damage the track.  In fact, he doesn't even need to steal a steel truck.  Any box van or dump truck will do (Missouri, anyone?).

Such an event would be so simple to pull off, it defies imagination.  

Terrorists are the least of our problem.  Drivers who can't read road signs are the bigger threat.

 

 

 

 

Exactly!  Some here overthink everything.

 

 

Using a vehicle to derail a train may be easy to pull off, but it will not meet the terrorist’s objective in many cases.

 

In the aftermath of the 911 attack, railroad security was stepped up not just because terrorists might attack trains.  Another reason was that terrorist might use trains to inflict damage on people and infrastructure.  This was often described as being executed by derailing hazmat trains at locations where they would cause this type of secondary damage, which would be the primary objective. 

 

They would turn the train into a weapon.  This would require sabotage by tampering with the track as Perry Babin described in his suggestion for a vehicle to patrol ahead of trains. 

 

Coincidentally, the Government has issued a new warning about this threat increasing with our participation in the developing Mideast war.

[Backshop]

tree68

Like I said, someone wanting to derail a train is going to wait until the scout hi-rail passes before causing mayhem.

But why bother with hiding?  There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train.  In fact, it goes on every week.  Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing?  How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse?

Recall that some years ago, a truck hauling steel was struck by a train - it was a mess (Illinois, IIRC).

Mr Terrorist doesn't have to damage the track.  In fact, he doesn't even need to steal a steel truck.  Any box van or dump truck will do (Missouri, anyone?).

Such an event would be so simple to pull off, it defies imagination.  

Terrorists are the least of our problem.  Drivers who can't read road signs are the bigger threat.

 

Exactly!  Some here overthink everything.

[Leo_Ames]

Hopefully Mr. Terrorist never watches Hogans Heroes. Just think of all the rail bridges in the middle of no where.

[Overmod]

Mr. Terrorist arranges to cut the rail, bonding or jumpering around the 'break' beforehand, and attaches a transverse cable from one end of the cut through the adjacent crib between ties, scooping and replacing a little ballast so it doesn't show.  He runs the other end to something that can pull sideways.  He then knocks out a few spikes, replacing them with cut-off 'heads' that have no effective lateral resistance, or removes a few Pandrol clips from elastic fixation.  Hi-rail or not, this only takes a few seconds to destroy any ability for the train to remain railed.

Presumably the sensor fusion on one of Perry's vehicles would be high-res and fast enough to pick up this sort of tinker, and the data coming off it would be reviewed by competent authority in enough time to command a stop by the following train...  Perry?  How will they do that?

[tree68]

Like I said, someone wanting to derail a train is going to wait until the scout hi-rail passes before causing mayhem.

But why bother with hiding?  There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train.  In fact, it goes on every week.  Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing?  How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse?

Recall that some years ago, a truck hauling steel was struck by a train - it was a mess (Illinois, IIRC).

Mr Terrorist doesn't have to damage the track.  In fact, he doesn't even need to steal a steel truck.  Any box van or dump truck will do (Missouri, anyone?).

Such an event would be so simple to pull off, it defies imagination.  

Terrorists are the least of our problem.  Drivers who can't read road signs are the bigger threat.

[Overmod]

Perry Babin

I'm not talking about a weed sprayer or a MoW tamper on the track. A dedicated vehicle capable of keeping its distance from the train, in constant communication with the engineer (where necessary) and that the train's engineer is aware of (a mile or more ahead) to check the track.

The issues are with building vehicles that can do that effectively on modern track at the required speed (70+mph for many trains in the West; 79 or better for Amtrak).  The technical issues in doing this have existed since before the days of the Evans Auto-Railer (or the Michelines), and were vastly complicated by the adoption of self-guiding frogs.  I recommend that you do your reading on this before becoming argumentative about doing this in practice.

Not that you might not come up with something practicable.  But you'll have to describe how it works, and let us shoot at the weak points as we see them, and defend them objectively.

If you're telling me that having the track pre-run by a vehicle is idiotic, so be it[note sp.] but I'd like to see someone put forth a solution that could prevent derailments from tampering. This is only going to get worse.

There actually is a reasonable technical solution, and I could build the necessary equipment and have it in operation within a few weeks.  Armed drones.

Seriously, the answer would be just 'drones' but the likelihood of drone surveillance actually deterring, or drone alarm producing a fast or effective enough response, is low in our current state of affairs, even if the drone's camera and guidance were capable of providing clear and unambiguous facial recognition.

Of course when I say 'armed' I mean with the capability of tagging someone with dye, or physically dissuading them from further working on damaging the track.  Although there is a section of 18USC that authorizes the death penalty for tampering with railroad operations in the sense that a major derailment would -- that would apply only after a fair trial.

[cx500]

Similarly, BC Rail used a patrol a few minutes ahead of each train from Lillooet up to Pavillion in a slide prone area.  When you saw the motorcar (in later years a hyrail truck) it was time to get the camera ready for a train.  The two would be in constant radio contact.  Once I heard on the scanner that a small slide came down in the short time between the two; fortunately the train was able to plow through it.

[ns145]

BaltACD

 

 

Hillyard

 

BaltACD

Your lack of railroad understanding is exceeded only by your arrogance. 

That is a snotty reply.

 

 

As it was intended.

With a 51+ year railroad career I have known too many individuals that did not survive their simple mistakes.  Railroading is a unforgiving enviornment, and the costs for foolish thoughts are high, deadly high.

 

UP uses hyrail trucks to guide trains thru the landslide-prone Feather River Canyon using special rules not involving normal track & time protection, referred to as "Broncos in the canyon".  Here's a link directly from UP's website for proof: https://www.up.com/aboutup/funstuff/rrtalk/transportation_terms/index.htm

I would expect that someone that has read TRAINS magazine for decades on end would have heard about this. 

Also, what is your deal?  Perry is a newbie just asking questions.  It's not like he's going to "try it out" for himself on a real railroad tomorrow.  You aren't saving anyone from anything.  This is a railfan forum, not a Class I rules class!

Edited to remove the most offensive parts of my anger-driven vitriol.  Funny how I can't stand being mean, even to someone that deserves it.

[BaltACD]

Hillyard

 

BaltACD

Your lack of railroad understanding is exceeded only by your arrogance. 

That is a snotty reply.

As it was intended.

With a 51+ year railroad career I have known too many individuals that did not survive their simple mistakes.  Railroading is a unforgiving enviornment, and the costs for foolish thoughts are high, deadly high.

[Hillyard]

BaltACD

Your lack of railroad understanding is exceeded only by your arrogance.

That is a snotty reply.

[traisessive1]

BaltACD

With the current rules in place on most Class 1's - you cannot have a train follow a vehicle moving on a MofW Track Occupancy Authority in the same track segment.  Track segments exist from Contol Point to Control Point or within the specified 'track car' limits with Track Warrant Control (Dark Territory).

 

 

This is simply not true, to a degree.

CN's CTC system allows a train to proceed through a TOP on signal indication as long as the train has an authority to protect against the foreman in charge of the TOP. We routinely get permissive signals through work limits with the foreman giving  us intructions to what mile we're okay up to as they clear track ahead of the train. 

 

Heck I closed up behind a rail grinder a few months ago. We were both in the same siding for a meet. 

[mudchicken]

.....somewhere in the deep dark recesses of the Kalmbach mothership, Brian Schmidt is seen frantically rummaging through the confines of the Trains cold storage closet looking for the Bergie-tizer. 

[Backshop]

With railroads attempting to cut employment to the bare minimum (or beyond), having a hi-railer precede every train is a nonstarter. What about the lines where their top speed is less than train speed?

[CMStPnP]

Perry Babin

I ask a simple question and I'm accused of wanting to kill people and of being a racist. 

What's arrogant about asking follow-up questions. 

I understand... go away. Done. 

I tried to cancel my account and got a 404 error. 

Long ago I used to be a Army Forums Moderator on Military dot com.   This forum is really tame by comparison.    For any discussion forum if your new this is fairly normal treatment from established posters.    You have to keep in mind your not the first poster that asked a question and you also have to respect other peoples experiences might be different from your own.    If you leave and cancel your account then you turn off the opportunity to learn.    If I was in your shoes I would stick around a little more and get to know the posters here.    Just my two cents of course from past experience.

One example:  Army Rangers and Special Forces only respond well to well researched and questions that are to the point because that is how they were taught in part to communicate, so they have no patience otherwise..........just a cautionary note if you post on their websites, otherwise your going to leave with your hair on fire.

This forum is very mild in comparison.

[Euclid]

BaltACD

 

 

Perry Babin

I ask a simple question and I'm accused of wanting to kill people and of being a racist. 

What's arrogant about asking follow-up questions. 

I understand... go away. Done. 

I tried to cancel my account and got a 404 error.

 

 

You don't accept the answers that were developed in the blood of many casualties over the years.  Railroad rules are created out of the blood spilled in situations that the rules were developed, written and implemented to prevent occurring in the future.

 

That seems over the top to me.  Since when are we all required to accept answers?  Sometimes answers are wrong.  The old saying that railroad rules are written in blood is nothing to be proud of.  The point is to spot danger and address it before blood is spilled.

[Euclid]

Perry Babin

Fox (came up on another site) ran a story about someone trying to derail trains. As the world gets less sane, are they going to have to keep something like a hi-railer running about a mile in front of trains just to make sure the tracks are safe?

 

It seems like a fair question to me.  I don’t know what type of method would be likely to use to address the problem.  But generally, the solution would be increased security, including all forms of surveillance.  I recall that in the wake of the 911 attack, there was much heightened concern about terrorist attacks and ways to prevent them.  Railroads in particular were cited as vulnerable potential targets for terrorism, especially considering their hauling of hazmat which was regarded as being used as a potential element of a terrorist attack.   

 

I would say that the potential risks for terrorism are much higher today than they were right after 911.  Regarding the southern border, the point is the number of people coming in and the national need to know who they are before they are allowed to enter. 

[tree68]

There have been videos on-line of people throwing everything from bicycles to washing machines on the tracks trying to derail trains, to no avail.

I saw a video once of a section of rail that was completely unspiked from the ties, held in place only by the joint bars connecting it to the adjoining rails.  Cars rolled over it just fine, even as the rail was flailing up and down.

There is also the well-known video from WWII of the Army trying to derail trains (with minimal results).

There is no need to damage track structure to cause a derailment.  A heavily loaded semi will do just fine, and a hi-rail vehicle running in front of a train will not counter that.

Besides - have you ever watched a war movie? They never blow up the tracks until just before the train arrives...

[Backshop]

Perry Babin

It was actually a fox story that was on the MSN website. The guy's name (who was arrested) was Cleveland man Joseph Findley, 43. 

Are you trying to make me seem like a racist? I'm not saying that everyone coming over the border illegally is a terrorist but there have been many on the FBI's terror watch list caught and I'm sure many more got through.  Cleveland man Joseph Findley, 43

 

Why did you even have to bring up the border?  It didn't have anything to do with the border or illegals. I never called you a racist. Look up what the term means. Most Mexicans are Caucasian. Although, that may say a lot about what you think of them.