CMStPnP tree68 But why bother with hiding? There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train. In fact, it goes on every week. Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing? How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse? True but also lets not also discount the signal maintainer that both uses and forgets to remove a shunt after their work is done. I know it's rare but it also has happened in the past. As well as just plain crossing signal failure.
tree68 But why bother with hiding? There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train. In fact, it goes on every week. Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing? How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse?
True but also lets not also discount the signal maintainer that both uses and forgets to remove a shunt after their work is done. I know it's rare but it also has happened in the past. As well as just plain crossing signal failure.
To err is human. Last time I looked, we all think we are human.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Trains can derail for other reasons, and a terrorist act doesn't do anything for the terrorists unless they claim credit for it. Making the claim would be problematic for whoever does it.
Of course, there is always the danger that some derranged individual will decide to strike out at what they see as the enemy, but such are not likely to reason out the best place to do it for the most damage. A rural area may seem a safer place to do it and not get caught And they have to know what they are doing to have a good chance of "success." A disgrunted ex-RR employee with a grudge seems a greater risk from this perspective.
That said, drone flights along the track may be the best way to catch anyone trying.
Presuming there's much of anyone to catch in the first place.
It has been, what, 28 years since anyone's actually pulled it off, despite the relative straightforward process involved? That says either existing security measures work or there's nothing to prevent in the first place.
EuclidUsing a vehicle to derail a train may be easy to pull off, but it will not meet the terrorist’s objective in many cases.
They weren't terrorist actions, but Lac Megantic, Graniteville, and East Palatine would certainly fit the bill.
Their objective is to create a situation that gets everyone's attention, then claim responsibility for it. Wrecking a passenger train would certainly qualify, but so would a hazmat incident in a populated area.
One must remember that the sabotage of old (ie, wartime) was conducted to interrupt the enemy's ability to wage war (ie, move materiel). Terrorism today is to gain attention to the "cause," whatever it may be.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I haven't forgotten the two women caught trying to cause collisions by messing with signals -- not too long ago.
Funny how we never heard about them being tried under 18 USC.
I have just been reading the opened NTSB docket for the BNSF Marshall District wreck near Raymond, MN at the end of March. Catastrophic derailment and fire from 43mph, caused by... a broken rail. We have a thread going on a fatal bridge collapse caused by... a broken rail. Can it be that difficult to provoke similar effects with malice aforethought?
Sabotage to rail facilities has been around since the B&O built its first track segment from Mt. Clare to Ellicotts Mills.
I believe one of the City streamlines was derailed in Arizona or New Mexico during the war when a rail was removed and signals configured to hid it. I don't believe any was apprehended for the crime.
Those with 'enough knowldege' can do a lot of damage if they want to. With the expanse of transportation routes that exist, in ALL FORMS of transportation from pipelines, waterways, highways, railroads and airways - not every foot of route can be inspected for sabotage for before the passage of every vehicle.
Wasn't there an intentional derailment of an SP passenger train years ago in the southwest? As I remember there were fatalities and no one was ever caught.
caldreamer Wasn't there an intentional derailment of an SP passenger train years ago in the southwest? As I remember there were fatalities and no one was ever caught.
I don't remember the details but you are correct about the passenger train. I do remember in was in the middle of nowhere. At the time it was reported that whoever did it had a working knowledge of railroading so the thought was an employee or ex-employee was the most likely suspect. There was evidence an off highway vehicle was used to access the site but it was never found. At this point it is highly unlikely we will ever know who did it. I believe there has not been a fatality from an intentional wreck of a US passenger train since then.
Oops someone beat me to the comment.
BaltACD I believe one of the City streamlines was derailed in Arizona or New Mexico during the war when a rail was removed and signals configured to hid it. I don't believe any was apprehended for the crime.
I'm pretty sure you are referring to the August 1939 intentional derailment of the CoSF in northern Nevada. There was one suspect, but apparently there wasn't enough evidence to charge him. The incident on Amtrak's Sunset Limited west of Phoenix was an eerily similar cause.
Erik_Mag BaltACD I believe one of the City streamlines was derailed in Arizona or New Mexico during the war when a rail was removed and signals configured to hid it. I don't believe any was apprehended for the crime. I'm pretty sure you are referring to the August 1939 intentional derailment of the CoSF in northern Nevada. There was one suspect, but apparently there wasn't enough evidence to charge him. The incident on Amtrak's Sunset Limited west of Phoenix was an eerily similar cause.
And in 1939 there weren't nearly the same levels of 'defendant protections' in the prosecutions of criminal cases that exist in the 21st century legal system. Of course the 21st century forensic tools to provide evidence didn't exist either.
Overmod, et al:
A "fair trial" for someone who derails a train under all circumstances would be:
1. The defendent is brought into the court room for the first time and sees the electric chair plugged in and ready to go.
2. The judge is seated and says "You have been found guilty. Would you like to be regular or extra crispy?".
3. End of terrorist!!!.
Wow.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Obviously has a problem with the Bill Of Rights.
There is a book on that -- "Tragic Train," by Don DeNevi.
caldreamerOvermod, et al: A "fair trial" for someone who derails a train under all circumstances would be: 1. The defendent is brought into the court room for the first time and sees the electric chair plugged in and ready to go. 2. The judge is seated and says "You have been found guilty. Would you like to be regular or extra crispy?". 3. End of terrorist!!!.
Vlad! Vlad! Vlad! That may be OK in Moscow, Peking, Tehran or Punyang! Not in the United States of America.
caldreamer Overmod, et al: A "fair trial" for someone who derails a train under all circumstances would be: 1. The defendent is brought into the court room for the first time and sees the electric chair plugged in and ready to go. 2. The judge is seated and says "You have been found guilty. Would you like to be regular or extra crispy?". 3. End of terrorist!!!.
I worked for the government for 38 years, I have not time for terrorists. All they are going to do is throw him in prison. Feed him, give him medical care, let hime out in the prison yard while he is geing guarded. All on OUR dime. How much do you think it cost per year and for how many years?
My other fantacies are for me to be in a room with a baseball bat with Putin and that little fat boy from North Korea. Guess who is going to walk out. Not them.
You never mentioned anything about a trial. Your writing is sometimes hard to decipher.
caldreamerI worked for the government for 38 years, I have not time for terrorists. All they are going to do is throw him in prison. Feed him, give him medical care, let hime out in the prison yard while he is geing guarded. All on OUR dime. How much do you think it cost per year and for how many years? My other fantacies are for me to be in a room with a baseball bat with Putin and that little fat boy from North Korea. Guess who is going to walk out. Not them.
Dude, you need to seriously reflect upon this line from Robert Burns:
'O wad some Power the giftie gie us / To see oursels as ithers see us! '
Backshop You never mentioned anything about a trial. Your writing is sometimes hard to decipher.
Indeed, literally said the exact opposite. The first appearance in court is already the execution! There's no trial, just an immediate sentencing. There's no option for an appeal (arguing that there's too many opportunities for an appeal over too long a period is one thing, but explicitly denying the Constitutional right to an appeal is another).
Jarring, to say the least, when we're supposed to be a society that aspires to "better to let a hundred guilty go free rather than punish one innocent wrongly" as our ideal of the presumption of innocence.
caldreamer I worked for the government for 38 years
I worked for the government for 38 years
I am still not allowed to say. I do not wish to spend the rest of my life in the super max prison in Florence Colorado. By the way, such nice people such as Terry Nichols the Oklahoma city bomer and El Chapo are finding out how hard life in that prison is spending 23 hours a day in 7X12 foot room.
Yeah, okay...we believe you. If you really couldn't say, you wouldn't say that you couldn't say. You'd just ignore the question.
caldreamerI do not wish to spend the rest of my life in the super max prison in Florence Colorado.
What? No Lompoc Country Club?
tree68 caldreamer I do not wish to spend the rest of my life in the super max prison in Florence Colorado. What? No Lompoc Country Club?
caldreamer I do not wish to spend the rest of my life in the super max prison in Florence Colorado.
How about Jimmy Hoffa U ?
"... when we're supposed to be a society that aspires to 'better to let a hundred guilty go free rather than punish one innocent wrongly' as our ideal of the presumption of innocence."
That sounds very nice but in today's USA of 350M residents with estimates that 2M or more are involved in gangs and similar plus all the drug related violent crime, actually following that ideal will cause chaos in society.
My limited experienc participating in the USA criminal justice system is juries usually do a fair job of judging defendents so the system normally works. Now the civil justice system is another matter. I believe it is basically now "broken" for various reasons.
alphas"... when we're supposed to be a society that aspires to 'better to let a hundred guilty go free rather than punish one innocent wrongly' as our ideal of the presumption of innocence." That sounds very nice but in today's USA of 350M residents with estimates that 2M or more are involved in gangs and similar plus all the drug related violent crime, actually following that ideal will cause chaos in society. My limited experienc participating in the USA criminal justice system is juries usually do a fair job of judging defendents so the system normally works. Now the civil justice system is another matter. I believe it is basically now "broken" for various reasons.
And yet the USA has more people behind bars than the rest of the world - country by country.
One good rule of thumb for government employees: if someone says they can't tell you what they do, there's about a 99% chance they work some mundane admin job and are trying to sound more important than they are. Those who really can't talk about their work simply throw their fabricated cover legend at you, as they're trained to do.
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