Fox (came up on another site) ran a story about someone trying to derail trains. As the world gets less sane, are they going to have to keep something like a hi-railer running about a mile in front of trains just to make sure the tracks are safe?
Perry BabinFox (came up on another site) ran a story about someone trying to derail trains. As the world gets less sane, are they going to have to keep something like a hi-railer running about a mile in front of trains just to make sure the tracks are safe?
With the current rules in place on most Class 1's - you cannot have a train follow a vehicle moving on a MofW Track Occupancy Authority in the same track segment. Track segments exist from Contol Point to Control Point or within the specified 'track car' limits with Track Warrant Control (Dark Territory).
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Could that be changed if there were far more derailments due to tampering? Rail systems are not, in any way, tamper-resistant. One man with a spike puller and a few tools could easily cause derailments. With our open borders, we could have many who wish to cause havoc doing just that. 50 years ago, this wasn't an issue. Today? Who can say?
Perry BabinCould that be changed if there were far more derailments due to tampering? Rail systems are not, in any way, tamper-resistant. One man with a spike puller and a few tools could easily cause derailments. With our open borders, we could have many who wish to cause havoc doing just that. 50 years ago, this wasn't an issue. Today? Who can say?
How many on track personnel do you want to kill?
Back in the day - On Track MofW vehicles operated on a 'Track Car Line Up' wherein the Dispatcher would issue a 'Line Up' of trains that would be operating over the territory the MofW person desired to traverse - with specific operational elements of the train(s) operating characteristics being mentioned. The MofW person getting the Line Up had the authority to occupy the track PROTECTING HIMSELF against all the train(s) listed on the Line Up.
The number of damaged MofW vehicles, depending upon specific territory and competence of the MofW work force would be one or more yearly per carrier operating division. Some incidents ended in fatalities and some didn't. A high price to pay. Since then the rules authorizing exclusive track occupany for MofW have been in existence. Safety!
I suspect tampering has been a potential issue ever since the 'Laying of the First Stone of the B&O' that happened on July 4, 1828. Tampering has caused fatal accidents in the past. Movement of its own issues, create accidental occurences. Walking, slipping, tripping and falling go hand in hand up to highway accidents and on to the sinking of the Titanic and other maritime accidents and all the aircraft incident up to the space shuttle accidents. Human movement is dangerous.
Why do you think I want anyone to be killed. Are you saying that, if tampering became a more common problem that the railroad couldn't have a small vehicle working as a team member with an engineer in a locomotive?
I'm not talking about a weed sprayer or a MoW tamper on the track. A dedicated vehicle capable of keeping its distance from the train, in constant communication with the engineer (where necessary) and that the train's engineer is aware of (a mile or more ahead) to check the track.
The report said that the train actually did derail but managed to realign with the trak. This was an Amtrak train.
What he was doing was so simple that a 10yo could do it.
If you're telling me that having the track pre-run by a vehicle is idiotic, sobeit but I'd like to see someone put forth a solution that could prevent derailments from tampering. This is only going to get worse.
Perry Babin Why do you think I want anyone to be killed. Are you saying that, if tampering became a more common problem that the railroad couldn't have a small vehicle working as a team member with an engineer in a locomotive? I'm not talking about a weed sprayer or a MoW tamper on the track. A dedicated vehicle capable of keeping its distance from the train, in constant communication with the engineer (where necessary) and that the train's engineer is aware of (a mile or more ahead) to check the track. The report said that the train actually did derail but managed to realign with the trak. This was an Amtrak train. What he was doing was so simple that a 10yo could do it. If you're telling me that having the track pre-run by a vehicle is idiotic, sobeit but I'd like to see someone put forth a solution that could prevent derailments from tampering. This is only going to get worse.
It was actually a fox story that was on the MSN website. The guy's name (who was arrested) was Cleveland man Joseph Findley, 43.
Are you trying to make me seem like a racist? I'm not saying that everyone coming over the border illegally is a terrorist but there have been many on the FBI's terror watch list caught and I'm sure many more got through. Cleveland man Joseph Findley, 43
Perry BabinWhy do you think I want anyone to be killed. Are you saying that, if tampering became a more common problem that the railroad couldn't have a small vehicle working as a team member with an engineer in a locomotive? I'm not talking about a weed sprayer or a MoW tamper on the track. A dedicated vehicle capable of keeping its distance from the train, in constant communication with the engineer (where necessary) and that the train's engineer is aware of (a mile or more ahead) to check the track. The report said that the train actually did derail but managed to realign with the trak. This was an Amtrak train. What he was doing was so simple that a 10yo could do it. If you're telling me that having the track pre-run by a vehicle is idiotic, sobeit but I'd like to see someone put forth a solution that could prevent derailments from tampering. This is only going to get worse.
Your lack of railroad understanding is exceeded only by your arrogance.
I ask a simple question and I'm accused of wanting to kill people and of being a racist.
What's arrogant about asking follow-up questions.
I understand... go away. Done.
I tried to cancel my account and got a 404 error.
Perry BabinI ask a simple question and I'm accused of wanting to kill people and of being a racist. What's arrogant about asking follow-up questions. I understand... go away. Done. I tried to cancel my account and got a 404 error.
You don't accept the answers that were developed in the blood of many casualties over the years. Railroad rules are created out of the blood spilled in situations that the rules were developed, written and implemented to prevent occurring in the future.
Perry Babin It was actually a fox story that was on the MSN website. The guy's name (who was arrested) was Cleveland man Joseph Findley, 43. Are you trying to make me seem like a racist? I'm not saying that everyone coming over the border illegally is a terrorist but there have been many on the FBI's terror watch list caught and I'm sure many more got through. Cleveland man Joseph Findley, 43
There have been videos on-line of people throwing everything from bicycles to washing machines on the tracks trying to derail trains, to no avail.
I saw a video once of a section of rail that was completely unspiked from the ties, held in place only by the joint bars connecting it to the adjoining rails. Cars rolled over it just fine, even as the rail was flailing up and down.
There is also the well-known video from WWII of the Army trying to derail trains (with minimal results).
There is no need to damage track structure to cause a derailment. A heavily loaded semi will do just fine, and a hi-rail vehicle running in front of a train will not counter that.
Besides - have you ever watched a war movie? They never blow up the tracks until just before the train arrives...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Perry Babin Fox (came up on another site) ran a story about someone trying to derail trains. As the world gets less sane, are they going to have to keep something like a hi-railer running about a mile in front of trains just to make sure the tracks are safe?
I would say that the potential risks for terrorism are much higher today than they were right after 911. Regarding the southern border, the point is the number of people coming in and the national need to know who they are before they are allowed to enter.
BaltACD Perry Babin I ask a simple question and I'm accused of wanting to kill people and of being a racist. What's arrogant about asking follow-up questions. I understand... go away. Done. I tried to cancel my account and got a 404 error. You don't accept the answers that were developed in the blood of many casualties over the years. Railroad rules are created out of the blood spilled in situations that the rules were developed, written and implemented to prevent occurring in the future.
Perry Babin I ask a simple question and I'm accused of wanting to kill people and of being a racist. What's arrogant about asking follow-up questions. I understand... go away. Done. I tried to cancel my account and got a 404 error.
Long ago I used to be a Army Forums Moderator on Military dot com. This forum is really tame by comparison. For any discussion forum if your new this is fairly normal treatment from established posters. You have to keep in mind your not the first poster that asked a question and you also have to respect other peoples experiences might be different from your own. If you leave and cancel your account then you turn off the opportunity to learn. If I was in your shoes I would stick around a little more and get to know the posters here. Just my two cents of course from past experience.
One example: Army Rangers and Special Forces only respond well to well researched and questions that are to the point because that is how they were taught in part to communicate, so they have no patience otherwise..........just a cautionary note if you post on their websites, otherwise your going to leave with your hair on fire.
This forum is very mild in comparison.
With railroads attempting to cut employment to the bare minimum (or beyond), having a hi-railer precede every train is a nonstarter. What about the lines where their top speed is less than train speed?
.....somewhere in the deep dark recesses of the Kalmbach mothership, Brian Schmidt is seen frantically rummaging through the confines of the Trains cold storage closet looking for the Bergie-tizer.
BaltACD With the current rules in place on most Class 1's - you cannot have a train follow a vehicle moving on a MofW Track Occupancy Authority in the same track segment. Track segments exist from Contol Point to Control Point or within the specified 'track car' limits with Track Warrant Control (Dark Territory).
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
BaltACDYour lack of railroad understanding is exceeded only by your arrogance.
That is a snotty reply.
Hillyard BaltACD Your lack of railroad understanding is exceeded only by your arrogance. That is a snotty reply.
BaltACD Your lack of railroad understanding is exceeded only by your arrogance.
As it was intended.
With a 51+ year railroad career I have known too many individuals that did not survive their simple mistakes. Railroading is a unforgiving enviornment, and the costs for foolish thoughts are high, deadly high.
BaltACD Hillyard BaltACD Your lack of railroad understanding is exceeded only by your arrogance. That is a snotty reply. As it was intended. With a 51+ year railroad career I have known too many individuals that did not survive their simple mistakes. Railroading is a unforgiving enviornment, and the costs for foolish thoughts are high, deadly high.
UP uses hyrail trucks to guide trains thru the landslide-prone Feather River Canyon using special rules not involving normal track & time protection, referred to as "Broncos in the canyon". Here's a link directly from UP's website for proof: https://www.up.com/aboutup/funstuff/rrtalk/transportation_terms/index.htm
I would expect that someone that has read TRAINS magazine for decades on end would have heard about this.
Also, what is your deal? Perry is a newbie just asking questions. It's not like he's going to "try it out" for himself on a real railroad tomorrow. You aren't saving anyone from anything. This is a railfan forum, not a Class I rules class!
Edited to remove the most offensive parts of my anger-driven vitriol. Funny how I can't stand being mean, even to someone that deserves it.
Similarly, BC Rail used a patrol a few minutes ahead of each train from Lillooet up to Pavillion in a slide prone area. When you saw the motorcar (in later years a hyrail truck) it was time to get the camera ready for a train. The two would be in constant radio contact. Once I heard on the scanner that a small slide came down in the short time between the two; fortunately the train was able to plow through it.
Perry BabinI'm not talking about a weed sprayer or a MoW tamper on the track. A dedicated vehicle capable of keeping its distance from the train, in constant communication with the engineer (where necessary) and that the train's engineer is aware of (a mile or more ahead) to check the track.
Not that you might not come up with something practicable. But you'll have to describe how it works, and let us shoot at the weak points as we see them, and defend them objectively.
If you're telling me that having the track pre-run by a vehicle is idiotic, so be it[note sp.] but I'd like to see someone put forth a solution that could prevent derailments from tampering. This is only going to get worse.
Seriously, the answer would be just 'drones' but the likelihood of drone surveillance actually deterring, or drone alarm producing a fast or effective enough response, is low in our current state of affairs, even if the drone's camera and guidance were capable of providing clear and unambiguous facial recognition.
Of course when I say 'armed' I mean with the capability of tagging someone with dye, or physically dissuading them from further working on damaging the track. Although there is a section of 18USC that authorizes the death penalty for tampering with railroad operations in the sense that a major derailment would -- that would apply only after a fair trial.
Like I said, someone wanting to derail a train is going to wait until the scout hi-rail passes before causing mayhem.
But why bother with hiding? There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train. In fact, it goes on every week. Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing? How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse?
Recall that some years ago, a truck hauling steel was struck by a train - it was a mess (Illinois, IIRC).
Mr Terrorist doesn't have to damage the track. In fact, he doesn't even need to steal a steel truck. Any box van or dump truck will do (Missouri, anyone?).
Such an event would be so simple to pull off, it defies imagination.
Terrorists are the least of our problem. Drivers who can't read road signs are the bigger threat.
Mr. Terrorist arranges to cut the rail, bonding or jumpering around the 'break' beforehand, and attaches a transverse cable from one end of the cut through the adjacent crib between ties, scooping and replacing a little ballast so it doesn't show. He runs the other end to something that can pull sideways. He then knocks out a few spikes, replacing them with cut-off 'heads' that have no effective lateral resistance, or removes a few Pandrol clips from elastic fixation. Hi-rail or not, this only takes a few seconds to destroy any ability for the train to remain railed.
Presumably the sensor fusion on one of Perry's vehicles would be high-res and fast enough to pick up this sort of tinker, and the data coming off it would be reviewed by competent authority in enough time to command a stop by the following train... Perry? How will they do that?
Hopefully Mr. Terrorist never watches Hogans Heroes. Just think of all the rail bridges in the middle of no where.
tree68 Like I said, someone wanting to derail a train is going to wait until the scout hi-rail passes before causing mayhem. But why bother with hiding? There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train. In fact, it goes on every week. Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing? How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse? Recall that some years ago, a truck hauling steel was struck by a train - it was a mess (Illinois, IIRC). Mr Terrorist doesn't have to damage the track. In fact, he doesn't even need to steal a steel truck. Any box van or dump truck will do (Missouri, anyone?). Such an event would be so simple to pull off, it defies imagination. Terrorists are the least of our problem. Drivers who can't read road signs are the bigger threat.
Backshop tree68 Like I said, someone wanting to derail a train is going to wait until the scout hi-rail passes before causing mayhem. But why bother with hiding? There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train. In fact, it goes on every week. Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing? How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse? Recall that some years ago, a truck hauling steel was struck by a train - it was a mess (Illinois, IIRC). Mr Terrorist doesn't have to damage the track. In fact, he doesn't even need to steal a steel truck. Any box van or dump truck will do (Missouri, anyone?). Such an event would be so simple to pull off, it defies imagination. Terrorists are the least of our problem. Drivers who can't read road signs are the bigger threat. Exactly! Some here overthink everything.
Exactly! Some here overthink everything.
tree68But why bother with hiding? There are literally thousands of vehicles on the highways today that are capable of derailing a train. In fact, it goes on every week. Anyone remember a week lately that didn't have at least one story about a truck being struck by a train at a crossing? How many of those have resulted in derailments, or worse?
True but also lets not also discount the signal maintainer that both uses and forgets to remove a shunt after their work is done. I know it's rare but it also has happened in the past. As well as just plain crossing signal failure.
Most likely a terrorist attempt to derail a train is going to be directed towards a passenger train in a heavily populated area. Most likely a commuter train in a major metropolitan area. An attempt at a long distance Amtrak train in the middle of a rural area, while possible, is unlikely. It doesn't rise to the same level as an attack where there's lots of people and lots of media.
The same with attacking a freight train carrying hazmat. It's not as scary out in the rural areas. There are plenty of opprotunities in metro and terminal areas to do harm against a hazmat car. They may sit in a yard or in a train stopped for a variety of reasons. Hazmat cars are well marked and their empty/load status can usually be determined by looking at the car.
So I would say the majority of threats would be in or near the higher populated areas. That's where better security measures and inspectionswould be more beneficial.
Jeff
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