charlie hebdo Backshop charlie hebdo It's amazing how oppositional folks are on here to electrification of major trunk lines. It's really not such a big deal. Most other industrialized nations seem to have overcome the difficulties mentioned here. I suspect most here have never spent much time in areas that have such services. As to noise, definitely quieter. Most are government run, which means that money is less of a problem. Their runs are also much shorter than ours. LA-CHI is huge compared to anything in Europe. I suggest that the network of lines in Europe or Japan is very dense. Majority of lines in Germany and France, Italy, Benelux are electrified. The infreastructure is state owned; operators are privatized. We should do the same for efficiency
Backshop charlie hebdo It's amazing how oppositional folks are on here to electrification of major trunk lines. It's really not such a big deal. Most other industrialized nations seem to have overcome the difficulties mentioned here. I suspect most here have never spent much time in areas that have such services. As to noise, definitely quieter. Most are government run, which means that money is less of a problem. Their runs are also much shorter than ours. LA-CHI is huge compared to anything in Europe.
charlie hebdo It's amazing how oppositional folks are on here to electrification of major trunk lines. It's really not such a big deal. Most other industrialized nations seem to have overcome the difficulties mentioned here. I suspect most here have never spent much time in areas that have such services. As to noise, definitely quieter.
It's amazing how oppositional folks are on here to electrification of major trunk lines. It's really not such a big deal. Most other industrialized nations seem to have overcome the difficulties mentioned here. I suspect most here have never spent much time in areas that have such services. As to noise, definitely quieter.
Most are government run, which means that money is less of a problem. Their runs are also much shorter than ours. LA-CHI is huge compared to anything in Europe.
I suggest that the network of lines in Europe or Japan is very dense. Majority of lines in Germany and France, Italy, Benelux are electrified. The infreastructure is state owned; operators are privatized. We should do the same for efficiency
We should do the same for efficiency? Both are lacking and specifically looking at Europe's freight rail is horrible compared to the US due to open access. If you're not familiar with European freight rail it would be wise to understand a few things about it.
Barges and road dominate freight moves in Europe. The former being due to good water infrastructure. Road has been eroding rail's share of freight in Europe for years. One it's a very high cost system due to many short(trains are typically limited to 750M[2,460'])low axle load freight trains competing with dense passenger services and other freight operators on limited slot availbilty.
A major obstacle that Europe will never if ever be able to overcome is lacking the ability to double-stack containers. Also the obsolete screw and link coupler still being used which severly restricts train tonnage due to the couplers severly low buff and draft rating. There's no uniformity across Europe when it comes to voltage for OHL, axle loads, and even gauge varies.
I always find it funny when people advocate for us to adopt Europes poor model for freight. When if it was so sucessful it would be adopted on a massive scale yet we aren't seeing that. If anything more countries are adopting and have adopted our style of railroading. Just to name a few; Russia, China, Australia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and India..
To the point of the post. I like electrificaton however we don't need it for freight. Clearance will be an issue for OHL just the scale alone that would be needed to rasie overpasses and undercut tunnels. We also don't have a dense passenger network that would get more of a benefit from OHL than freight.
Both OHL and DEL have pros and cons. One isn't better than the other. They suit how a network is setup and operates. DEL's will serve us just fine going forward.
SD60MAC9500 charlie hebdo Backshop charlie hebdo It's amazing how oppositional folks are on here to electrification of major trunk lines. It's really not such a big deal. Most other industrialized nations seem to have overcome the difficulties mentioned here. I suspect most here have never spent much time in areas that have such services. As to noise, definitely quieter. Most are government run, which means that money is less of a problem. Their runs are also much shorter than ours. LA-CHI is huge compared to anything in Europe. I suggest that the network of lines in Europe or Japan is very dense. Majority of lines in Germany and France, Italy, Benelux are electrified. The infreastructure is state owned; operators are privatized. We should do the same for efficiency We should do the same for efficiency? Both are lacking and specifically looking at Europe's freight rail is horrible compared to the US due to open access. If you're not familiar with European freight rail it would be wise to understand a few things about it. Barges and road dominate freight moves in Europe. The former being due to good water infrastructure. Road has been eroding rail's share of freight in Europe for years. One it's a very high cost system due to many short(trains are typically limited to 750M[2,460'])low axle load freight trains competing with dense passenger services and other freight operators on limited slot availbilty. A major obstacle that Europe will never if ever be able to overcome is lacking the ability to double-stack containers. Also the obsolete screw and link coupler still being used which severly restricts train tonnage due to the couplers severly low buff and draft rating.. There's no uniformtiy across Europe when it comes to voltage for OHL, axle loads, and even gauge varies. I always find it funny when people advocate for us to adopt Europes poor model for freight. When if it was so sucessful it would be adopted on a massive scale yet we aren't seeing that. If anything more countries are adopting and have adopted our style of railroading. Just to name a few; Russia, China, Australia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and India.. To the point of the post. I like electrificaton however we don't need it for freight. Clearance will be an issue for OHL just the scale alone that would be needed to rasie overpasses and undercut tunnels. We also don't have a dense passenger network that would get more of a benefit from OHL than freight. Both OHL and DEL have pros and cons. One isn't better than the other. They suit how a network is setup and operates. DEL's will serve us just fine going forward.
A major obstacle that Europe will never if ever be able to overcome is lacking the ability to double-stack containers. Also the obsolete screw and link coupler still being used which severly restricts train tonnage due to the couplers severly low buff and draft rating..
There's no uniformtiy across Europe when it comes to voltage for OHL, axle loads, and even gauge varies. I always find it funny when people advocate for us to adopt Europes poor model for freight. When if it was so sucessful it would be adopted on a massive scale yet we aren't seeing that. If anything more countries are adopting and have adopted our style of railroading. Just to name a few; Russia, China, Australia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and India..
It seems like you're going off on two different tangents here. Much of what you say about European railroading is correct, but it has nothing to do with electrification. You cite Russia and China as countries that are adopting our methods of railroading, but Russia and China, which both have enormous rail networks, are 50% and 70% electrified respectively.
Psychot SD60MAC9500 charlie hebdo Backshop charlie hebdo It's amazing how oppositional folks are on here to electrification of major trunk lines. It's really not such a big deal. Most other industrialized nations seem to have overcome the difficulties mentioned here. I suspect most here have never spent much time in areas that have such services. As to noise, definitely quieter. Most are government run, which means that money is less of a problem. Their runs are also much shorter than ours. LA-CHI is huge compared to anything in Europe. I suggest that the network of lines in Europe or Japan is very dense. Majority of lines in Germany and France, Italy, Benelux are electrified. The infreastructure is state owned; operators are privatized. We should do the same for efficiency We should do the same for efficiency? Both are lacking and specifically looking at Europe's freight rail is horrible compared to the US due to open access. If you're not familiar with European freight rail it would be wise to understand a few things about it. Barges and road dominate freight moves in Europe. The former being due to good water infrastructure. Road has been eroding rail's share of freight in Europe for years. One it's a very high cost system due to many short(trains are typically limited to 750M[2,460'])low axle load freight trains competing with dense passenger services and other freight operators on limited slot availbilty. A major obstacle that Europe will never if ever be able to overcome is lacking the ability to double-stack containers. Also the obsolete screw and link coupler still being used which severly restricts train tonnage due to the couplers severly low buff and draft rating.. There's no uniformtiy across Europe when it comes to voltage for OHL, axle loads, and even gauge varies. I always find it funny when people advocate for us to adopt Europes poor model for freight. When if it was so sucessful it would be adopted on a massive scale yet we aren't seeing that. If anything more countries are adopting and have adopted our style of railroading. Just to name a few; Russia, China, Australia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and India.. To the point of the post. I like electrificaton however we don't need it for freight. Clearance will be an issue for OHL just the scale alone that would be needed to rasie overpasses and undercut tunnels. We also don't have a dense passenger network that would get more of a benefit from OHL than freight. Both OHL and DEL have pros and cons. One isn't better than the other. They suit how a network is setup and operates. DEL's will serve us just fine going forward. It seems like you're going off on two different tangents here. Much of what you say about European railroading is correct, but it has nothing to do with electrification. You cite Russia and China as countries that are adopting our methods of railroading, but Russia and China, which both have enormous rail networks, are 50% and 70% electrified respectively.
I mention electrification due to the iconsistency across Europe amongst other physical plant aspects noted in my previous comment. Of course method of motive power is not why the model is lacking. Even with China and Russia being mostly electrified they didn't adopt Europes operating model.
Electrification is going to certainly have some problems being implemented. First costs. Then clearances especially in the east.
Problem = Few locations with non compatible CAT.
1. PRR 25 Hz 12.0 Kv. Obviously this needs to be replaced with 60 Hz 12.5 Kv. No freight RR would want to buy heavier and much more expensive 25/60 Hz transformers for just a few necessary locos. Amtrak Hell Gate line to Gate and MNRR's conversion has alrady been completed.
It will not be cheap but Amtrak will finally have to convert to 60 Hz probably with dedicated federal funds. It will not be easy as some signal system changes. Also all bypass inductors between tracks changed from 25 to 60 Hz. Some stations and maintenancee facilities still powerd by 25 Hz as well. Most difficult will be first section needed at SSY, approachesto NYP. and NYP station.
2. Metra electric and South Shore. This is needed for HSR to access CHICAGO unlimited. As far as I know there has been no provisions to add 60 Hz to any of its rolling stock. Can they have 60 Hz added ? Unknown. As well the CAT would needed to be changed to whatever higher 60 Hz voltages desired. Do not know if the present SS rebuilds and new track has higher voltage CAT installed?
3. Does any of the light rail around Dallas / FtWorth operate on some freight trackage?
Clearance issues.
With automatic multi tap transformers readily available lower clearance can make those areas 12.5 Kv. Maybe 6.25 Kv? If not enough then a battry loco will be needed. However 6.25 sounds like better solution except for the larger feeders and CAT contact wire needed . Believe that Virginia Avenue CSX twin tunnels are one location needed that. Or any train could have a DPU farther away than length of clearance issue.
What is the most expensive of insttalling electrification? IMO it is the pot holling for the casions that support the CAT poles that holds the CAT wire. Look how long it took Amtrak for the New Haven - BOS extension. In that case it was mostly rock. Other locations it might be signal cable or in case of ex SP track Sprint telephone lines. Unmarked utility lines or misplaced markings. Other than EHV extra high voltage power lines all utility crossing should be underground of the ROW in casings. Remember when car hit power pole and dropped wires fell on Amtrak CAT.
Clearance issues ==.
Before electrification can be done for the US freight carriers can be done, a standard electrical configuration will have to be agreed to among all the participating carriers.
The carriers have become accustomed to run through power with diesels, they won't give up that utility and efficiency in going electric. Engine changes require additional air brake testing equivalent to building the train from scratch.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Engine changes require additional air brake testing equivalent to building the train from scratch.
...no?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
blue streak 1Problem = Few locations with non compatible CAT. 1. PRR 25 Hz 12.0 Kv. Obviously this needs to be replaced with 60 Hz 12.5 Kv. No freight RR would want to buy heavier and much more expensive 25/60 Hz transformers for just a few necessary locos. Amtrak Hell Gate line to Gate and MNRR's conversion has alrady been completed. It will not be cheap but Amtrak will finally have to convert to 60 Hz probably with dedicated federal funds. It will not be easy as some signal system changes. Also all bypass inductors between tracks changed from 25 to 60 Hz. Some stations and maintenancee facilities still powerd by 25 Hz as well.
1. PRR 25 Hz 12.0 Kv. Obviously this needs to be replaced with 60 Hz 12.5 Kv. No freight RR would want to buy heavier and much more expensive 25/60 Hz transformers for just a few necessary locos. Amtrak Hell Gate line to Gate and MNRR's conversion has alrady been completed. It will not be cheap but Amtrak will finally have to convert to 60 Hz probably with dedicated federal funds. It will not be easy as some signal system changes. Also all bypass inductors between tracks changed from 25 to 60 Hz. Some stations and maintenancee facilities still powerd by 25 Hz as well.
What has changed, dramatically, is the switch in preference toward constant-tension catenary, something that is long, long overdue... but not particularly compatible with the existing Gibbs & Hill infrastructure. (In fact, the sections of the older New Haven electrification being converted on MNRR and the west end in Connecticut are actually seeing whole new towers constructed, between the existing ones, for the better system -- probably more trouble and expense than for a line without electrification in the first place.)
As I recall, the 12.5 was the highest practical voltage that could be used in the North River tunnels, and perhaps in the four tunnels east out of NYP to Sunnyside. That is probably as tight a clearance, especially to double-deck commuter cars, as anyone wants to see -- so any switch to higher-speed equipment using, say, 25kV is not going to happen before Gateway nears completion.
Many, many of the potential clearance issues involve full domestic doublestacks operating under 25 or 50kV new construction. The situation won't be as extreme as the Indian examples, because we can presume well cars instead of skeleton or deck flats would be used, but it is unlikely that a great many overhead obstructions won't be cost-effective either to raise or replace to the extent corona and contact safety would require.
In my opinion the answer to this isn't making the route safe for the required voltage end to end, and isn't providing multiple-power selectors in all the locomotives to allow something like 6600V to permit ridiculous close clearances. The 'thing' I advocate is to adopt hybrid locomotives or consists that can operate under wire and use battery power to cross any gaps or be able to start if they become stalled -- and then build the system so there is as much overhead wire per line as possible.
2. Metra electric and South Shore. This is needed for HSR to access CHICAGO unlimited.
3. Does any of the light rail around Dallas/Ft.Worth operate on some freight trackage? Clearance issues ==. With automatic multi tap transformers readily available lower clearance can make those areas 12.5 Kv.
Maybe 6.25 Kv? If not enough then a battery loco will be needed.
Believe that Virginia Avenue CSX twin tunnels are one location needed that.
Or any train could have a DPU farther away than length of clearance issue.
What is the most expensive of insttalling electrification? IMO it is the pot holling for the caissons that support the CAT poles. Look how long it took Amtrak for the New Haven - BOS extension.
Other locations it might be signal cable or in case of ex SP track Sprint telephone lines. Unmarked utility lines or misplaced markings.
Other than EHV extra high voltage power lines, all utility crossing should be underground of the ROW in casings. Remember when car hit power pole and dropped wires fell on Amtrak CAT.
You are forgetting the biggest issue in the USA also. We have a certain section of the population that if they see something standing around that is made of metal loves to take it and sell it for scrap metal prices. Just how are the railroads going to fight the theft of their overhead wiring in major cities. We all saw the footage of what they did to diesel powered trains in CA just imagine them being able to stop a train fully and loot to their hearts content.
Shadow the Cats ownerJust how are the railroads going to fight the theft of their overhead wiring in major cities.
LA has lots of light rail, how much live wire has been stolen? NY and CHI have electrified rail, and I don't remember any "cat" burglary.
MidlandMike Shadow the Cats owner Just how are the railroads going to fight the theft of their overhead wiring in major cities.
Shadow the Cats owner Just how are the railroads going to fight the theft of their overhead wiring in major cities.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
MidlandMike Kia and Hyundai thought their CARS were safe from theft for years also. Then someone figured out how to defeat the program. Then we had the summer of fun of stolen KIA and Hyundais all over the place. Given how common social media is sooner or later someone would figure it out post it and look out. Shadow the Cats owner Just how are the railroads going to fight the theft of their overhead wiring in major cities. LA has lots of light rail, how much live wire has been stolen? NY and CHI have electrified rail, and I don't remember any "cat" burglary.
Kia and Hyundai thought their CARS were safe from theft for years also. Then someone figured out how to defeat the program. Then we had the summer of fun of stolen KIA and Hyundais all over the place. Given how common social media is sooner or later someone would figure it out post it and look out.
Breaking into a car to steal it is trivial because the car doesn't kill you when you touch it. There's no comparison. No one is stealing cat. It literally cannot happen because the process of stealing it is lethal. The only people who could steal it are the same people who could de-energize it and if you've got that sort of access, there's other things to steal that are more valuable.
In a similar vein, there are police reports every so often of some miscreant who was killed breaking into a Com Ed junction box or substation to steal copper wire.
NittanyLionBreaking into a car to steal it is trivial because the car doesn't kill you when you touch it.
EV's may be an exception to that. Breaking into the car, no problem. Trying to extract some of the battery wiring may be a different story...
There's a reason firefighters are being trained about the issues there (never mind the fires).
Guess an aluminum extension ladder could be used to trip a breaker and stop a train.
The cat wires, are they pure Cu or a Cu alloy, or just Al?
We don't have a big enough electrical grid nor generation capacity to charge all of the EVs that the gooberment is forcing on us..how are we going to keep the electric trains running? And solar/wind are unreliable for electric generation-neither one is available 24 hrs.
Shadow the Cats ownerKia and Hyundai thought their CARS were safe from theft for years also. Then someone figured out how to defeat the program. Then we had the summer of fun of stolen KIA and Hyundais all over the place. Given how common social media is sooner or later someone would figure it out post it and look out.
No they didn't. They were just too cheap to install immobilizers in them.
Yes they forgot that little bit of programming. However given how interconnected cars are today with the internet they could have possibly fixed the issue with a single software update over the freaking internet. Heck my 2020 Chevy Trax and my 2019 Ford Fusion both recently upgraded their own infotainment systems and the Chevy upgraded the transmission shift programming all over the internet while we were using them both.
azrailhow are we going to keep the electric trains running?
They'd likely supply their own power. Amtrak's got a hydro plant.
NittanyLion azrail how are we going to keep the electric trains running?
azrail how are we going to keep the electric trains running?
Shadow the Cats ownerYes they forgot that little bit of programming. However given how interconnected cars are today with the internet they could have possibly fixed the issue with a single software update over the freaking internet. Heck my 2020 Chevy Trax and my 2019 Ford Fusion both recently upgraded their own infotainment systems and the Chevy upgraded the transmission shift programming all over the internet while we were using them both.
Yeah, i think it's a little more complicated than that.
I just got an EV. It charges at home off my solar panels. It charges at work off the charging stations which are free with a parking pass. The power there also comes from solar panels, which are mounted by thousands (it looks like), over all of the outdoor parking lots. Combined, my Tesla is always charged up.
No one forced me buy an EV. No gas to buy, and virtually no maintaince cost and and a great test drive. Granted I love my little English sports car with its tiny souped up engine and would never give it up. But so far with the Tesla, I would not buy a gas powered car again. Electric is just best all around.
I admit I live in California where its sunny, and other locations don't have our advantages.
J. BishopNo one forced me buy an EV. No gas to buy, and virtually no maintaince cost and and a great test drive. Granted I love my little English sports car with its tiny souped up engine and would never give it up. But so far with the Tesla, I would not buy a gas powered car again. Electric is just best all around.
How's it run at -30°F? Would you take a trip to Phoenix with it? Non-stop?
EV's have their place - mostly in urban settings. Out in the sticks, and in the northern climes, they are far less appealing.
One of our amateur radio repeaters here is totally off the grid. Oftimes, mid-winter, the owner must pay the site a visit to recharge the batteries with a generator, as the solar panels and wind turbine aren't generating enough juice.
Any time I see a train loaded with coal, I know that it's EV fuel...
The biggest issue I see here, is that so many seem to think this has to be an all or nothing endeavour. If the railroads were to pick and choose, say, some challenging passes or areas as such, and start with those, then it wouldn't be the huge outlay so many are quoting here.
Yes, there would be delays due to changing out or adding new power to the trains, but in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't be a whole lot different than tagging on pushers, or helpers.
Its range is about 300 miles. Sure, I would take it to Phoenix where one of my sons live. There are lots of EV charging stations there. He and his wife have had a Tesla for several years, their experience encouraged my getting one too. My son's Tesla is also charged by their solar panels. They do use their EV to drive into the mountains, regularly to Prescot, where it snows in the winter.
I don't suggest there are no situations where a gas engine is better. But it's best for my situation.
And EVs may be good for gas engine car owners also. If more EVs reduce demand for gas, the lower demand might reduce the price of gas. And the competition from EVs may encourage better gas-engined cars. So thats win-win for both!
IMO The biggest operational problem for electrification will be overhead utility lines fallig on the CAT. Not only service electric lines but telephone, cable, fiber, etc with many having a messinger line supporting communication wire.. Several ways each can foul RR CAT.
1. The most obvious is a strike on a pole supporting utility line(s) crossing the RR. The Amtrak shutdown in NJ after a car hit a pole with the pole leaning enough to allow its ~7200 V line to foul the RR cat is an example.
2. Any unexpected heating of a line crossing the RR could cause the utility line to sag. All utility lines sag naturally on the "catenary" curve formula. The EH voltage of PG&E lines that saged all the way to the vegetation and started several fire in California are an example.
3. There is some talk of planning to require 30 feet from top of rail to the messenger line of a 50 Kv constant tension CAT. Since RR grade at many locations will somewhat higher than surrounding earth that may put RR messinger 35 feet or more above ground level. Taller unsupported poles will of course be more likely to tip over or fall.
4. A minor problem that is occurring at least in our neck of the woods. All the primary voltages are being increased. Our local town started slowly 10 years ago changing from 2400 volts to 7200 volts primarys. It installed dual voltage transformers with sections that could be fed from other substations converted to 7200 volts Finished about 2 years ago. However soon as new transformers were being installed the cross arm insulatorors were upgraded to 14.4 Kv as long range plans are to go to that voltage eventually. City's very old transformers had theat very nasty coolant. Last I checked with utility dual voltage single phase transformers only cost about $30 - 50 more than single voltage ones depending on Kw output. Georgia power is now connecting some businesses in LaGrange directly to 25 Kv lines where the lines are available.
So, all overhead lines IMO need to be buried under any electrification RR CAT. Any new or relocated tracks will be easy just bury before new tracks laid. Under present tracks not so easy as access often will need pits on both sides to jack and bore a casing then the utility inserted.
I had a Model X and it was the best car I ever owned. The only reason I sold it is because we recently moved to Eastern Europe where the charging infrastructure isn't as good, and the State Department has not yet gotten with the times and started installing EV chargers in Embassy residences. EVs are the best commuting vehicles ever, and as for long road trips, we quickly became accustomed to taking a 45-minute break from the road while the car was charging. It's kind of a refreshing change from filling the tank and jumping right back into the car.
I think a big factor in making EVs work in colder climates is having EV chargers at workplaces as well as homes. If the car is plugged in while you're at work, the battery will be warmed up and you won't lose charge. I would also point out that a large percentage of cars in Norway are EVs, and they make it work somehow.
As for the fossil-fuel nature of our present grid, I've said it before and I'll say it again: you can't just flip a switch when the grid is ready and fully-evolved EVs start rolling off the line. The development process takes time and money, and EVs will continue to evolve along with battery technology. But none of it would happen without demand created by various incentives.
One of the interesting experiences in owning an EV is the borderline-hostile questioning one gets from a certain segment of our population. I swear some people take it as a personal affront that someone would drive an EV.
If the general populace truly wanted EV's, there would be no need for incentives... Or disincentives for non-EV's.
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