Murphy Siding Euclid- On a thread a little while back, you mentioned that you did contract excavating work, or something similar (?) How are you compensating your employees so that their real wages are keeping up with inflation?
Euclid- On a thread a little while back, you mentioned that you did contract excavating work, or something similar (?) How are you compensating your employees so that their real wages are keeping up with inflation?
Most of us talk about work and think about work even when we're not working..hey..look at what we're doing right now. I'm on vacation in Italy, but I'm still working as much as my wife will tolerate.
zugmann It's funny when we get the new guys that are all about "making money". They go on and on about they want to work, work, work, make the most money as quick as possible. And then after a month or 2 marked up they're quitting because they get written up for marking off on multiple weekends or holidays, and complain when they get called to work off the board.
It's funny when we get the new guys that are all about "making money". They go on and on about they want to work, work, work, make the most money as quick as possible.
And then after a month or 2 marked up they're quitting because they get written up for marking off on multiple weekends or holidays, and complain when they get called to work off the board.
Yep. And they'll also complain about how they can't afford the new truck and toys they just bought financed.....
But there are also a lot of people who don't have a problem with working nights or weekends, so long as they do eventually get time off in one form or another.
In general, people don't have a problem with working, but we do have a problem with doing nothing but working. And the railroad solution to this problem is (like usual) to blame the employees for being lazy, or simply pretend that there isn't a problem.
We have pizza/family days every now and then too, but everyone knows that they are not representative of management's true attitude toward us. One small annual event doesn't quite make up for the other 364 days of disrespect.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Euclid zugmann It's funny when we get the new guys that are all about "making money". They go on and on about they want to work, work, work, make the most money as quick as possible. And then after a month or 2 marked up they're quitting because they get written up for marking off on multiple weekends or holidays, and complain when they get called to work off the board. So I'll say again,... higher wages will attract people but working conditions will make them stay. If new hires are quitting because they can’t get weekends off; and if better working conditions will make them stay, will the new working conditions give everyone weekends off?
zugmann It's funny when we get the new guys that are all about "making money". They go on and on about they want to work, work, work, make the most money as quick as possible. And then after a month or 2 marked up they're quitting because they get written up for marking off on multiple weekends or holidays, and complain when they get called to work off the board. So I'll say again,... higher wages will attract people but working conditions will make them stay.
So I'll say again,... higher wages will attract people but working conditions will make them stay.
Ha ha.. No. I've been employed in the transportation industry since 1982, and working long irregular hours including weekends is part of the gig.
tree68The issue with the railroads, based on what I've read here, is the unpredictability of the work. Penalties for taking time off certainly don't help any.
There used to be a lot more jobs, so you had something to hold much faster. But regualr jobs are replaced with pools/lists, and you used to be able to take time off easier when you did work pools/lists, but they don't let you do that as easy anymore. I doubt I would stay if I was a new guy today.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
EuclidIf new hires are quitting because they can’t get weekends off; and if better working conditions will make them stay, will the new working conditions give everyone weekends off?
While weekends off are nice, this is not a new problem, or one limited to the railroad industry.
Any business that needs to run 24/7 has a similar issue. I worked in those circumstances for a number of years - rotating shifts, weekends, holidays, etc. But we normally had a couple of days off in a row - our 'weekend.' And it was predictable. Between working the same shift for several weeks in a row and fairly consistant days off, I could plan something a month out without too much trouble.
The issue with the railroads, based on what I've read here, is the unpredictability of the work. Penalties for taking time off certainly don't help any.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
PJS1Pay is pretty far down the scale of job values when it meets most employees needs. However, if they believe they are not being compensated fairly, it shoots to the top of the need’s hierarchy.
I'm sure Jeff or 70dude has seen those types as well.
So I'll say again, since I don't think I said it in this repeat of a thread topic: higher wages will attract people but working conditions will make them stay.
n012944 Overmod But if the ATDA were to ratify, but 'everybody else' votes to strike, would the dispatchers not stand in solidarity when management starts trying to operate trains? I would hope so.
Overmod But if the ATDA were to ratify, but 'everybody else' votes to strike, would the dispatchers not stand in solidarity when management starts trying to operate trains?
But if the ATDA were to ratify, but 'everybody else' votes to strike, would the dispatchers not stand in solidarity when management starts trying to operate trains?
I would hope so.
ATDA members won't cross picket lines. If there are no picket lines at their work location they cannot refuse to do their jobs if their craft has signed a contract.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murphy Siding Ulrich Murphy Siding I'm hesitant to jump into a thread that will probably run off the tracks as being not really about railroading. <There, I put in my effort to make it somewhat railroad oriented. euclid wants to make it all about money. That's too simple-minded. In more realistic terms, it's more like bang for the buck. Your job has to have a balance between what you get paid, how much you like or dislike the job, and whether you can pay the mortgage and have a life. It's a moving target, as so many factors affect it. Like it or not, I am middle management. I have about 17-18 guys working for me. On average, most of us have worked there between 10 and 15 years. (33 for me, and I'm about 6th in time companywide). My newest guy has been there a month. I haven't had an overly amount of turnover, but the rate is increasing. In the last 12 monts, I've had 4 people move on. All 4 had worked there less than a year. Two left for personal reasons (their personal lives were a mess and they thought being a mess at a different job would somehow be different?) One left for better pay, but more importantly, better opportunities to advance. The most recent one left to develop his part-time business into his full-time dream job. None of the 4 left simply because the employer down the road is paying more. There's always that balance. What works for my operation is to treat employees like humans and not like replaceable cogs in a machine. Treat your employees well and they will treat the company well. Treat them like dirt, and you get what you deserve. Right now, I have 18 guys that work together as a team. We're all rowing in the same direction and we all know where we're going, and why. And, they all get along with each other! Seven miles away, our sister company has the exact same operation, with a different outlook and different results. Our upper managment must be similar to that of a railroad, or any other big corporation. It's all about money and money is all about numbers- people be damned, you're getting in the way of additional profits. A lot of years back, I worked for a big corporation. When they sent any paperwork to employees, it was always sent to your home address. They didn't put your name on it. Mine were addressed to Big Corporation employee #43-04. I always felt like that was their way of reminding me that I was a replaceable part in a machine. This month, we set a new all-time sales record. Next week, I'm ordering pizzas for the crew and telling them thanks for their hard work. I won't hear a peep from upper management about the sales record, but I will hear about why I spent precious company money on pizza. I bet the railroads don't buy pizza for their employees or tell them thank you for their hard work. They probably should. Pay is important, but it's not the only thing that keeps people at a specific job. I guess a thank you and a pizza works for some. In my days working for various carriers large and small we had "appreciation days" and other "feel good" events, but they came across as contrived and insincere. But if it works for some people then I suppose they have some value. Personally I never needed thank you gestures, sincere or otherwise, pizzas or fake appreciation events. I did my job..they paid me..The End. We also have a commision system, so that makes the pay more in line with the work produced. It never hurts to thank people for their work.
Ulrich Murphy Siding I'm hesitant to jump into a thread that will probably run off the tracks as being not really about railroading. <There, I put in my effort to make it somewhat railroad oriented. euclid wants to make it all about money. That's too simple-minded. In more realistic terms, it's more like bang for the buck. Your job has to have a balance between what you get paid, how much you like or dislike the job, and whether you can pay the mortgage and have a life. It's a moving target, as so many factors affect it. Like it or not, I am middle management. I have about 17-18 guys working for me. On average, most of us have worked there between 10 and 15 years. (33 for me, and I'm about 6th in time companywide). My newest guy has been there a month. I haven't had an overly amount of turnover, but the rate is increasing. In the last 12 monts, I've had 4 people move on. All 4 had worked there less than a year. Two left for personal reasons (their personal lives were a mess and they thought being a mess at a different job would somehow be different?) One left for better pay, but more importantly, better opportunities to advance. The most recent one left to develop his part-time business into his full-time dream job. None of the 4 left simply because the employer down the road is paying more. There's always that balance. What works for my operation is to treat employees like humans and not like replaceable cogs in a machine. Treat your employees well and they will treat the company well. Treat them like dirt, and you get what you deserve. Right now, I have 18 guys that work together as a team. We're all rowing in the same direction and we all know where we're going, and why. And, they all get along with each other! Seven miles away, our sister company has the exact same operation, with a different outlook and different results. Our upper managment must be similar to that of a railroad, or any other big corporation. It's all about money and money is all about numbers- people be damned, you're getting in the way of additional profits. A lot of years back, I worked for a big corporation. When they sent any paperwork to employees, it was always sent to your home address. They didn't put your name on it. Mine were addressed to Big Corporation employee #43-04. I always felt like that was their way of reminding me that I was a replaceable part in a machine. This month, we set a new all-time sales record. Next week, I'm ordering pizzas for the crew and telling them thanks for their hard work. I won't hear a peep from upper management about the sales record, but I will hear about why I spent precious company money on pizza. I bet the railroads don't buy pizza for their employees or tell them thank you for their hard work. They probably should. Pay is important, but it's not the only thing that keeps people at a specific job. I guess a thank you and a pizza works for some. In my days working for various carriers large and small we had "appreciation days" and other "feel good" events, but they came across as contrived and insincere. But if it works for some people then I suppose they have some value. Personally I never needed thank you gestures, sincere or otherwise, pizzas or fake appreciation events. I did my job..they paid me..The End.
Murphy Siding I'm hesitant to jump into a thread that will probably run off the tracks as being not really about railroading. <There, I put in my effort to make it somewhat railroad oriented. euclid wants to make it all about money. That's too simple-minded. In more realistic terms, it's more like bang for the buck. Your job has to have a balance between what you get paid, how much you like or dislike the job, and whether you can pay the mortgage and have a life. It's a moving target, as so many factors affect it. Like it or not, I am middle management. I have about 17-18 guys working for me. On average, most of us have worked there between 10 and 15 years. (33 for me, and I'm about 6th in time companywide). My newest guy has been there a month. I haven't had an overly amount of turnover, but the rate is increasing. In the last 12 monts, I've had 4 people move on. All 4 had worked there less than a year. Two left for personal reasons (their personal lives were a mess and they thought being a mess at a different job would somehow be different?) One left for better pay, but more importantly, better opportunities to advance. The most recent one left to develop his part-time business into his full-time dream job. None of the 4 left simply because the employer down the road is paying more. There's always that balance. What works for my operation is to treat employees like humans and not like replaceable cogs in a machine. Treat your employees well and they will treat the company well. Treat them like dirt, and you get what you deserve. Right now, I have 18 guys that work together as a team. We're all rowing in the same direction and we all know where we're going, and why. And, they all get along with each other! Seven miles away, our sister company has the exact same operation, with a different outlook and different results. Our upper managment must be similar to that of a railroad, or any other big corporation. It's all about money and money is all about numbers- people be damned, you're getting in the way of additional profits. A lot of years back, I worked for a big corporation. When they sent any paperwork to employees, it was always sent to your home address. They didn't put your name on it. Mine were addressed to Big Corporation employee #43-04. I always felt like that was their way of reminding me that I was a replaceable part in a machine. This month, we set a new all-time sales record. Next week, I'm ordering pizzas for the crew and telling them thanks for their hard work. I won't hear a peep from upper management about the sales record, but I will hear about why I spent precious company money on pizza. I bet the railroads don't buy pizza for their employees or tell them thank you for their hard work. They probably should. Pay is important, but it's not the only thing that keeps people at a specific job.
I'm hesitant to jump into a thread that will probably run off the tracks as being not really about railroading. <There, I put in my effort to make it somewhat railroad oriented. euclid wants to make it all about money. That's too simple-minded. In more realistic terms, it's more like bang for the buck. Your job has to have a balance between what you get paid, how much you like or dislike the job, and whether you can pay the mortgage and have a life. It's a moving target, as so many factors affect it. Like it or not, I am middle management. I have about 17-18 guys working for me. On average, most of us have worked there between 10 and 15 years. (33 for me, and I'm about 6th in time companywide). My newest guy has been there a month. I haven't had an overly amount of turnover, but the rate is increasing. In the last 12 monts, I've had 4 people move on. All 4 had worked there less than a year. Two left for personal reasons (their personal lives were a mess and they thought being a mess at a different job would somehow be different?) One left for better pay, but more importantly, better opportunities to advance. The most recent one left to develop his part-time business into his full-time dream job. None of the 4 left simply because the employer down the road is paying more. There's always that balance. What works for my operation is to treat employees like humans and not like replaceable cogs in a machine. Treat your employees well and they will treat the company well. Treat them like dirt, and you get what you deserve. Right now, I have 18 guys that work together as a team. We're all rowing in the same direction and we all know where we're going, and why. And, they all get along with each other! Seven miles away, our sister company has the exact same operation, with a different outlook and different results. Our upper managment must be similar to that of a railroad, or any other big corporation. It's all about money and money is all about numbers- people be damned, you're getting in the way of additional profits. A lot of years back, I worked for a big corporation. When they sent any paperwork to employees, it was always sent to your home address. They didn't put your name on it. Mine were addressed to Big Corporation employee #43-04. I always felt like that was their way of reminding me that I was a replaceable part in a machine. This month, we set a new all-time sales record. Next week, I'm ordering pizzas for the crew and telling them thanks for their hard work. I won't hear a peep from upper management about the sales record, but I will hear about why I spent precious company money on pizza. I bet the railroads don't buy pizza for their employees or tell them thank you for their hard work. They probably should. Pay is important, but it's not the only thing that keeps people at a specific job.
I guess a thank you and a pizza works for some. In my days working for various carriers large and small we had "appreciation days" and other "feel good" events, but they came across as contrived and insincere. But if it works for some people then I suppose they have some value. Personally I never needed thank you gestures, sincere or otherwise, pizzas or fake appreciation events. I did my job..they paid me..The End.
We also have a commision system, so that makes the pay more in line with the work produced. It never hurts to thank people for their work.
For sure, so long as its sincere. I think that's the key..if it comes across as "the manual says I should thank you" it won't work. Hmm..maybe dancing girls and live music instead of a pizza..
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 jeffhergert n012944 Backshop If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return. Railroads are currently pushing the unions to accept the PEB's 24% raise without any work rules changes. I've heard the negotiations with SMART-TD and BLE&T are not looking good. The railroads still are wanting less than the PEB recommended. I've not heard details, but I'm guessing it's over the Healthcare portion. Labor came out ahead compared to what the railroads wanted. Jeff The ATDA has just reached an agreement that pretty much matches the PEB. I am hearing that it won't pass, do to the lack of a "me too" clause. We will see. https://www.atda.org/atda-reaches-tentative-national-agreement/
jeffhergert n012944 Backshop If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return. Railroads are currently pushing the unions to accept the PEB's 24% raise without any work rules changes. I've heard the negotiations with SMART-TD and BLE&T are not looking good. The railroads still are wanting less than the PEB recommended. I've not heard details, but I'm guessing it's over the Healthcare portion. Labor came out ahead compared to what the railroads wanted. Jeff
n012944 Backshop If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return. Railroads are currently pushing the unions to accept the PEB's 24% raise without any work rules changes.
Backshop If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return.
If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return.
Railroads are currently pushing the unions to accept the PEB's 24% raise without any work rules changes.
I've heard the negotiations with SMART-TD and BLE&T are not looking good. The railroads still are wanting less than the PEB recommended. I've not heard details, but I'm guessing it's over the Healthcare portion. Labor came out ahead compared to what the railroads wanted.
Jeff
The ATDA has just reached an agreement that pretty much matches the PEB. I am hearing that it won't pass, do to the lack of a "me too" clause. We will see.
https://www.atda.org/atda-reaches-tentative-national-agreement/
Being retired I don't have a vote. I do recall CSX trying to foist a 'Profit Sharing Plan' in place to negotiated increases in a prior contract. As I recall the official vote held by the NLRB was 374-0 against Profit Sharing.
ATDA does submit agreements to the membership for ratification.
EuclidReferences say that the Presidential Emergency Board refused to include working conditions in the negotiations.
What references? you can read the actual PEB document and their refusal to address those concerns. No need for references.
EuclidMy general conclusion is that a concentration on working conditions negotiation would result in very little improvement in working conditions, and far less improvement than what has been accomplished in current wage negotiations.
That makes zero sense.
EuclidFortunately, this process seems to have moved away from that danger.
Yeah, a real danger improving working conditions. Dodged that bullet.
Extinction.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
diningcar Are we all forgetting that WE, with our pension funds, are the stockholders? You and I, with our meager investments, are hardly recognizable.
Are we all forgetting that WE, with our pension funds, are the stockholders?
You and I, with our meager investments, are hardly recognizable.
I'm on vacation, so I haven't been watching the forums as close.
1st. The PEB didn't say labor didn't contribute to profits. The railroads in their testimony to the PEB said that.
2nd. The unions have a request in for a change in attendance policies. To have them negotiated instead of unilaterally imposed. (Current language allows "reasonable" time off, but that is a vague yerm.) They have also requested rest days. Those items the PEB kicked down the road. Saying they should be negotiated or go to binding arbitration.
One conductor once told me a buddy of his could offered to get him on the street department where he lived, small town Iowa. 5 day week with lots of overtime weekdays, some weekend emergency, too. He thought about it, but the pay, good for Iowa, was about a 3rd of what he was making as a conductor. He's still with us.
We have a lot of guys with college degrees. They went railroading because they make more than they would've in their field of study.
While we have lost some people, anecdotally BNSF seems to have lost a lot more. That may be due to the drastic change in what had been, from what I've read, was a very liberal attendance policy.
Zug: As backshop said, Extinction endmrw0901222034
tree68 Every personnel management course I've ever taken has placed pay pretty far down the scale of what's important to people.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
EuclidSo what is it that labor is specifically requesting in order to improve working conditions? Is it just little gestures of friendship, or is it revising work to be like the normal work routine that most people enjoy? If it is the latter, why would you expect the railroads to grant it? What would this extensive change cost? How are the unions defining this transformation of the working conditions?
You've asked this like 3x already, then I give links to the section 6 notices, then you ask it again. So there's no point in bothering - you'll jsut keep re-asking the question and bringing up the topic until you get an answer you like.
Euclid So what is it that labor is specifically requesting in order to improve working conditions? Is it just little gestures of friendship, or is it revising work to be like the normal work routine that most people enjoy? If it is the latter, why would you expect the railroads to grant it? What would this extensive change cost? How are the unions defining this transformation of the working conditions?
EXTINCTION!!!
tree68Think about it - if you like to go camping, f'rinstance, and every weekend is a four day weekend, wouldn't you be tempted to head out virtually every weekend?
I worked four 12s per week with Tuesday-Thursday my days off, ....for close to 5 years, and they were the best years of my career. Having that regular 3 days off made the oddball schedule liveable. Ocassionally I'd get sucked into a 7 day routine for a few weeks (I was salaried), but knowing that it wasn't permanent gave me a "light at the end of the tunnel" that I could depend upon
Due to seniority, I was entitled to 4 weeks vacation per year, and what I found was that due to all the long weekends...vacation time off was not as crucial. So typically I'd sell 2-3 weeks back to the company each year.
I am in mangement at my company also. Kind of in the middle where I am where I walk the line between HR safety and Operations. I am basically the driver's voice for their concerns here. You would be amazed how many people literally go she does NOTHING to help the bottom line in this place. But when the CEO goes she alone keeps our turnover rate at a third of the industry rate or lower they go well what does that mean in dollars HR asked him in a meeting recently. The CEO of the company goes it costs us about 15K to bring in a driver and start them out correct they said around there. She alone last year before the merger was fully done even after we started changing things at her old company saved us close to 2 million dollars in replacement driver costs. That was 2 million dollars we used to improve benefits and pay for our drivers company wide which is now used to keep drivers happy. HR shut up after hearing that one. After the merger went thru and my workload basically doubled but not to badly as most drivers know that all it takes is a couple words to get me in action and most of my other jobs I did before the merger like log audits and some of the load planning got removed as we have dedicated personal now on that. Just taking care of over 450 drivers is enough if the old *** hits the spinning disk so to speak. But the new carrier side has seen turnover drop 60% even in this economy. So like my new boss says my work is worth the pay.
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