Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding Because I'm curious/nosy, I looked at the trip plan of a car that left our lumber yard. This car moseyed up to Superior WI and is now just parked. The BNSF web portal says it was placed for “Constructive placement’. Checking the definition on ye olde internets, it sounds like that means they couldn’t get to the destination, so they just parked it close and called it good? A couple odd things: The route plan shows the next event to be a hand-off to another railroad, perhaps CP or CN? The equipment details info shows the car is privately owned, but can run on BNSF tracks only(?) What’s next for this car?
A question for your sales rep.. put him/her to work!
I'm just guessing here, but what the heck...
Constructive placement sounds like they've got it staged for the next move.
It might mean it missed the move it was supposed to make...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
You know the nomenclature is poor when no one understands it. Well, maybe the account exec does.. but all bets are off.
Quick search found:
https://www.bnsf.com/bnsf-resources/news-media/customer-notifications/pdf/Demurrage%20QRG%20-%202021-04.pdf
Constructive Placement: When a car cannot be actually placed or delivered because of any condition attributable to the consignee, consignor, loader or unloader, the car will be held by BNSF short of actual placement and notice will be sent or given that the car is held awaiting disposition instructions.
Such cars which have been placed by BNSF on private or other than team tracks, including lead tracks serving the loader or unloader, will be considered constructively placed without notice.
UlrichYou know the nomenclature is poor when no one understands it. Well, maybe the account exec does.. but all bets are off.
Constructive Placement is when the destination customer cannot accept delivery of the car at their facility for whatever the reason. When a car is Constructively Placed the Demurrage clock for the car starts running. The Demurrage Clock will continue to run as the car is actually placed and will end when the car is released from the facility.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I see.. so it means "delivery delayed until customer can accept"..
UlrichI see.. so it means "delivery delayed until customer can accept"..
Yes.
BaltACD Ulrich I see.. so it means "delivery delayed until customer can accept".. Yes.
Ulrich I see.. so it means "delivery delayed until customer can accept"..
But the meter is running.
rdamon BaltACD Ulrich I see.. so it means "delivery delayed until customer can accept".. Yes. But the meter is running.
Yes!
Murphy Siding A couple odd things: The route plan shows the next event to be a hand-off to another railroad, perhaps CP or CN? The equipment details info shows the car is privately owned, but can run on BNSF tracks only(?) What’s next for this car?
Possibly interchanged at Noyes, MN to CP. BNSF and CP swap traffic at this point.
Well, I was partially right. That's why we're here. Someone usually has the answer!
The only ones that don't understand are those that don't have a material interest in the business processes involved in railroading.
Railroads operate by monetizing every possible action and inaction of their customers as well as the other carriers that they are involved with. Demurrage, Car Hire, Horsepower Hours, Car Repair billing and probably half a dozen other things have price tags - there are no free lunches when dealing with railroads.
... and the end user gets put on notice that the blunder in his back yard (usually caused by him) is gonna cost him...Queue up the puppy dog tears and indignation when the demurrage bill hits...
If it continues the AAR embargo comes next.
BaltACD Ulrich You know the nomenclature is poor when no one understands it. Well, maybe the account exec does.. but all bets are off. The only ones that don't understand are those that don't have a material interest in the business processes involved in railroading. Railroads operate by monetizing every possible action and inaction of their customers as well as the other carriers that they are involved with. Demurrage, Car Hire, Horsepower Hours, Car Repair billing and probably half a dozen other things have price tags - there are no free lunches when dealing with railroads.
Ulrich You know the nomenclature is poor when no one understands it. Well, maybe the account exec does.. but all bets are off.
Well, that should include the customer. Customer shouldn't be left to wonder what the terminology means.
Ulrich BaltACD Ulrich You know the nomenclature is poor when no one understands it. Well, maybe the account exec does.. but all bets are off. The only ones that don't understand are those that don't have a material interest in the business processes involved in railroading. Railroads operate by monetizing every possible action and inaction of their customers as well as the other carriers that they are involved with. Demurrage, Car Hire, Horsepower Hours, Car Repair billing and probably half a dozen other things have price tags - there are no free lunches when dealing with railroads. Well, that should include the customer. Customer shouldn't be left to wonder what the terminolgy means.
Well, that should include the customer. Customer shouldn't be left to wonder what the terminolgy means.
Those customer personnel involved in paying the freight and demurrage bills know the in's and out's of the rules. Those customer personnel NOT involved in the money aspects may not know. It is the responsibility of those handling the money for the customer to educate the other personnel within the customers organization everything they need to know about the rules for the benefit of the customers organization.
EuclidSo why did the car get constructively placed at Superior, WI? How might this have been caused by the receiver in SD? Could there be other causes for constructive placement unrelated to the receiver? From the information given to Murphy, how is he supposed to know what action to take to get the car out of jail?
I don't know the particulars for the industries that are involved in the situation that is being presented to us.
Hypothetically - Industry A has a process that takes loaded rail cars of X commodity and turns it into Y commoditiy. Their facility CAN handle upto 25 cars per day and for whatever reasons they have to stop their process. Railroad now has 100 cars for A at the serving yard for A, there are another 300 cars consigned to A in the carriers 'pipeline'. The serving yard for A cannot handle any more cars for A until A's processes get back on line and they restart doing their process, cars in the pipeline, when they can operationally go no further, will be Constructively Placed. None of the cars can be Actually Placed at A until A gets their manufacturing process moving again. Once A gets back in full production and they can accept cars and work down the backlog things can eventually get back to normal.
Constructively Placed cars are not in jail. Their release and further movement to the customers actual property is dependent upon the customer's ability to handle, process and release the cars.
BaltACD Euclid So why did the car get constructively placed at Superior, WI? How might this have been caused by the receiver in SD? Could there be other causes for constructive placement unrelated to the receiver? From the information given to Murphy, how is he supposed to know what action to take to get the car out of jail? I don't know the particulars for the industries that are involved in the situation that is being presented to us. Hypothetically - Industry A has a process that takes loaded rail cars of X commodity and turns it into Y commoditiy. Their facility CAN handle upto 25 cars per day and for whatever reasons they have to stop their process. Railroad now has 100 cars for A at the serving yard for A, there are another 300 cars consigned to A in the carriers 'pipeline'. The serving yard for A cannot handle any more cars for A until A's processes get back on line and they restart doing their process, cars in the pipeline, when they can operationally go no further, will be Constructively Placed. None of the cars can be Actually Placed at A until A gets their manufacturing process moving again. Once A gets back in full production and they can accept cars and work down the backlog things can eventually get back to normal. Constructively Placed cars are not in jail. Their release and further movement to the customers actual property is dependent upon the customer's ability to handle, process and release the cars.
Euclid So why did the car get constructively placed at Superior, WI? How might this have been caused by the receiver in SD? Could there be other causes for constructive placement unrelated to the receiver? From the information given to Murphy, how is he supposed to know what action to take to get the car out of jail?
Euclid BaltACD Euclid So why did the car get constructively placed at Superior, WI? How might this have been caused by the receiver in SD? Could there be other causes for constructive placement unrelated to the receiver? From the information given to Murphy, how is he supposed to know what action to take to get the car out of jail? I don't know the particulars for the industries that are involved in the situation that is being presented to us. Hypothetically - Industry A has a process that takes loaded rail cars of X commodity and turns it into Y commoditiy. Their facility CAN handle upto 25 cars per day and for whatever reasons they have to stop their process. Railroad now has 100 cars for A at the serving yard for A, there are another 300 cars consigned to A in the carriers 'pipeline'. The serving yard for A cannot handle any more cars for A until A's processes get back on line and they restart doing their process, cars in the pipeline, when they can operationally go no further, will be Constructively Placed. None of the cars can be Actually Placed at A until A gets their manufacturing process moving again. Once A gets back in full production and they can accept cars and work down the backlog things can eventually get back to normal. Constructively Placed cars are not in jail. Their release and further movement to the customers actual property is dependent upon the customer's ability to handle, process and release the cars. Okay, I see. I had missed the point that the car had left the lumber yard in SD, and was placed on constructive placement while enroute to its destination.
Okay, I see. I had missed the point that the car had left the lumber yard in SD, and was placed on constructive placement while enroute to its destination.
If the situation causing Constructive Placement doesn't show signs of improving - the Railroad can institute procedures to having shipments to the industry Embargoed. The Embargo will stop shippers from tendering shipments to the embargoed industry/location.
SD60MAC9500 Murphy Siding A couple odd things: The route plan shows the next event to be a hand-off to another railroad, perhaps CP or CN? The equipment details info shows the car is privately owned, but can run on BNSF tracks only(?) What’s next for this car? Possibly interchanged at Noyes, MN to CP. BNSF and CP swap traffic at this point.
Hypothetically, is it at all possible that the "constructive placement" was made to benefit a customer, rather than to penalize them? We see a lot of gleeful references in this forum to demurrage, and other ways the railroads find to make their customers regret their relationship with them....but I wonder... could this situation at hand be as simple as....the railroad has a customer who requires 20 empties per day....and this car has been placed in the pipeline to be made available to them....on schedule?
Surely if the railroad knows the customer will be needing the car, then having it ~available nearby~ serves the interest of the railroad as well as the specific customer?
One additional thought ....isn't the practice of avoiding empty backhauls supposed to be considered "smart railroading"? Could the constructive placement of this car be part of such a strategy?
Murphy SidingA majority of the cars coming to us from Canada do come through Noyes. I saw that name often enough that I went exploring Google Maps and went down that rathole again. I could spend days on Google Maps just looking at interesting stuff.
Now I'll have to check out Noyes. Google Earth is always on my tabs bar and an SPV atlas is always close at hand. In the last few days I've been all over both Lackawanna Cutoffs, Saluda grade, the Old Fort grade, Ukrainian railways, and located Ohio Electric's interurban tunnel near Zanesville. A big surprise was England, where I used to think you couldn't go east-west more than two hours or north-south more than five without encountering ocean. Guess I'd imagined the place being the size of Delmarva. It's embarassing because I was a geography whiz as a kid and later on a surveyor. Google Earth and Japanese rural railways suck me in every time.
Rick
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
Convicted OneHypothetically, is it at all possible that the "constructive placement" was made to benefit a customer, rather than to penalize them? We see a lot of gleeful references in this forum to demurrage, and other ways the railroads find to make their customers regret their relationship with them....but I wonder... could this situation at hand be as simple as....the railroad has a customer who requires 20 empties per day....and this car has been placed in the pipeline to be made available to them....on schedule? Surely if the railroad knows the customer will be needing the car, then having it ~available nearby~ serves the interest of the railroad as well as the specific customer?
Constructive Placement is a specific procedure that is tied to Demurrage.
Telling a customer that a car has 'entered their pipeline' is not constructive placement - it is simple notification.
The basics of demurrage start with - upon arrival at the destination station the customer is entitled to one placement of the car at the spot of the customer's choice. Demurrage starts with the first 7 AM after placement. When I was working customers were allowed 48 hours from that first 7 AM to either load or unload the car as necessary. If the necessary actions require more time, then Demurrage Penalties will begin with the 3rd 7 AM and will continue until the car is released. Pulling the car from it's original spot that the customer specified is done for free. If the customer directs the railroad to move the car from its original spot location to a different spot location, the customer is 'on the hook' for a intraplant switch charge; intraplant switch charges are the reason many customers buy locomotives or trackmobiles to move cars around their facilities without incuring intraplant switch charges.
The Constructive Placement adjuct to Demurrage only starts when the customer has more cars at its serving yard than its plant can handle. There are two types of customers - Open Gate and Closed Gate. Open Gate customer get their cars spotted at their facility with the first available switch after the car arrives the serving yard. Closed Gate customers get notified of each days arrivals at the serving yard and will order in specific cars to their plant for each switch that the customer gets. Being notified of the car(s) arrival to Closed Gate customers constitutes Constructive Placement of those cars.
Customers dealing with HAZMAT commodities are required to accept the car(s) on the first switch after arrival in the serving yard. In many cases these customers will formally LEASE a track in the carriers serving yard for the customer's exclusive use to comply with this requirement.
Everything I have described in this thread just scratches the surface of interaction between the carriers and their customers and the financial ramifications of that interaction.
BaltACD Demurrage starts with the first 7 AM after placement. When I was working customers were allowed 48 hours from that first 7 AM to either load or unload the car as necessary. If the necessary actions require more time, then Demurrage Penalties will begin with the 3rd 7 AM and will continue until the car is released.
Murphy SidingThe BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed.
In your initial post you mention that the car currently in question was privately owned. Do the railroads charge demurrage on privately owned cars after they are placed on a customer owned siding?
Convicted One Murphy Siding The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed. In your initial post you mention that the car currently in question was privately owned. Do the railroads charge demurrage on privately owned cars after they are placed on a customer owned siding?
Murphy Siding The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed.
Murphy Siding BaltACD Demurrage starts with the first 7 AM after placement. When I was working customers were allowed 48 hours from that first 7 AM to either load or unload the car as necessary. If the necessary actions require more time, then Demurrage Penalties will begin with the 3rd 7 AM and will continue until the car is released. Maybe that varies among railroads. The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed.
Maybe that varies among railroads. The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed.
I have been retired for 5 years - the years before PSR was implemented on US Class 1 carriers. Part of PSR, in addition to changing Operating Plans and cutting head count on the railroads was also a rewriting the rules of Accesorial Charges - such as Demurrage, Intraplant Switching and a raft of other charges that can be applied when the situation happens. Needless to say the rewriting of these rules was done to benefit the railroads, not the customer.
BaltACD Murphy Siding BaltACD Demurrage starts with the first 7 AM after placement. When I was working customers were allowed 48 hours from that first 7 AM to either load or unload the car as necessary. If the necessary actions require more time, then Demurrage Penalties will begin with the 3rd 7 AM and will continue until the car is released. Maybe that varies among railroads. The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed. I have been retired for 5 years - the years before PSR was implemented on US Class 1 carriers. Part of PSR, in addition to changing Operating Plans and cutting head count on the railroads was also a rewriting the rules of Accesorial Charges - such as Demurrage, Intraplant Switching and a raft of other charges that can be applied when the situation happens. Needless to say the rewriting of these rules was done to benefit the railroads, not the customer.
And why not, customers who are captive to rail have very few options these days... you either pay and do as you're told or go without.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.