Murphy Siding Convicted One Murphy Siding The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed. In your initial post you mention that the car currently in question was privately owned. Do the railroads charge demurrage on privately owned cars after they are placed on a customer owned siding? Sure they do. I don't know that I've ever gotten a railroad owned car in. The only way I could see them not charging us demurrage on a privately owned car would be if we were the ones who owned it. Chemical companies come to mind.
Convicted One Murphy Siding The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed. In your initial post you mention that the car currently in question was privately owned. Do the railroads charge demurrage on privately owned cars after they are placed on a customer owned siding?
Murphy Siding The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed.
In your initial post you mention that the car currently in question was privately owned. Do the railroads charge demurrage on privately owned cars after they are placed on a customer owned siding?
Sure they do. I don't know that I've ever gotten a railroad owned car in. The only way I could see them not charging us demurrage on a privately owned car would be if we were the ones who owned it. Chemical companies come to mind.
What type of cars do you get?
I guess I've always figured box cars and center beam flats. Outside of TrailerTrain centerbeam cars, I think all of those kind I've seen were owned by a railroad.
Plenty of private owned box cars out there.
Jeff
jeffhergert Murphy Siding Convicted One Murphy Siding The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed. In your initial post you mention that the car currently in question was privately owned. Do the railroads charge demurrage on privately owned cars after they are placed on a customer owned siding? Sure they do. I don't know that I've ever gotten a railroad owned car in. The only way I could see them not charging us demurrage on a privately owned car would be if we were the ones who owned it. Chemical companies come to mind. What type of cars do you get? I guess I've always figured box cars and center beam flats. Outside of TrailerTrain centerbeam cars, I think all of those kind I've seen were owned by a railroad. Plenty of private owned box cars out there. Jeff
What I get to see operating on CSX's Old Main Line indicates that railroads are selling a significant part of their car inventory to Leasing Company's that apply their private owner initials and numbers to the cars and they seem to continue to operate much as they did when railroad owned. I am not familar with how this is being accomplished as it regards Car Hire and Accessorial Charges.
When private owner cars were predominately tank cars or other 'special' cars, the cars were Trip Leased by either the shipper or the consignee with payments made by the leasing party to the lessor. The lessor would build into the lease clauses that acted similar to railroad demurrage rules, however the allowed times for loading or unloading could be vastly longer than standard railroad demurrage, the enforcement of those clauses were between the Lessor and Leasee and the railroads were not involved.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingMaybe I'm wrong and I'm assuming they're private. Most recent cars had reporting marks like:WRWK****** TTZX****** ATW****** IC******
Those are railroad controlled cars. The TTZX counts as a railroad controlled car.
Murphy Siding jeffhergert Murphy Siding Convicted One Murphy Siding The BNSF starts our clock at midnight after the car is placed. In your initial post you mention that the car currently in question was privately owned. Do the railroads charge demurrage on privately owned cars after they are placed on a customer owned siding? Sure they do. I don't know that I've ever gotten a railroad owned car in. The only way I could see them not charging us demurrage on a privately owned car would be if we were the ones who owned it. Chemical companies come to mind. What type of cars do you get? I guess I've always figured box cars and center beam flats. Outside of TrailerTrain centerbeam cars, I think all of those kind I've seen were owned by a railroad. Plenty of private owned box cars out there. Jeff Maybe I'm wrong and I'm assuming they're private. Most recent cars had reporting marks like:WRWK****** TTZX****** ATW****** IC******
Maybe I'm wrong and I'm assuming they're private. Most recent cars had reporting marks like:WRWK****** TTZX****** ATW****** IC******
Car Initials that end in X are Private owner cars. Car Initials not ending in X are railroad owned.
Car Initials that have TT somewhere within the first 3 initials and X as the 3rd or 4th initials are owned by Trailer Train which is inturn owned by participating railroads which includes all the Class 1's and some others who use the cars for their own customers. Your TTZX is such a car - they range from TTX to ATTX to TTAX to ZTTX to TTZX and virtually every combination in between.
Remember the initials for CSX owned cars are CSXT .
Convicted One One additional thought ....isn't the practice of avoiding empty backhauls supposed to be considered "smart railroading"? Could the constructive placement of this car be part of such a strategy?
One additional thought ....isn't the practice of avoiding empty backhauls supposed to be considered "smart railroading"? Could the constructive placement of this car be part of such a strategy?
Murphy SidingWell... there is a limit to how many cowhides you can ship back to a Canadian lumber mill...
Back when most freight moved by boxcar, they could haul most anything. There were specialized boxcars, but you get my gist.
There's not a lot you can haul on a centerbeam flat, other than lumber products. And a lot of other cars are similarly specialized. I would guess that you're not going to haul sand in a grain hopper, etc, and so on.
An attempt to haul general freight in auto racks didn't do well here on the forum.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68There's not a lot you can haul on a centerbeam flat, other than lumber products.
I have seen steel beams being hauled on centebeam flats In CSX's Dewitt yard. Defininitely an exception, but I've seen it on more than one occasion.
Murphy you would go nuts then tracing our LOADED cars on the UP recently. UP hauls them from Houston where they get them from the late Ed's of this forums Belt Railway of Houston to KC where they get interchanged to the BNSF and onto us. That is what the contract they have with the shipper states that the shipper has with them. We as the consignee are not happy with this arrangement but are stuck with it. Now KC from Houston is roughly 12 hours by truck. Just why do our loaded cars need to go to El Paso Tx before heading to KC is beyond me. Recently starting about 4 months ago everything we get has been routed from Beumont Yard to El Paso then gets put back on a train back to Beumont Yard then up to KC. It is like what the hell is going on at the UP. When they get to KC and hand them over BNSF gets them to us within 2 days as they go to Galesburg the first day get put into the local which is the train for the Maywood Logistic Park and sent onward. We had one last year that took 5 months to get to us off the UP right now it is taking about 2 months in transit for a load my drivers can do in 2 days.
A lot of the specialized cars are stenciled "Restricted Loading, See Equipment Register". Loaded backhauls are not possible in that case.
BaltACDWhen private owner cars were predominately tank cars or other 'special' cars, the cars were Trip Leased by either the shipper or the consignee with payments made by the leasing party to the lessor. The lessor would build into the lease clauses that acted similar to railroad demurrage rules, however the allowed times for loading or unloading could be vastly longer than standard railroad demurrage, the enforcement of those clauses were between the Lessor and Leasee and the railroads were not involved.
Thanks for that Balt.
My thinking was If I'm leasing the car, what business is it of the railroad how long I take to load it?
Murphy SidingWell... there is a limit to how many cowhides you can ship back to a Canadian lumber mill.
I was just trying to envision a constructive use to the term "constructive". But I guess as Balt has clarified, in this instance, the term is specific jargon meaning "the meter is already running"
After my father left the MoPac, he worked for a truck line and after that he work for an Industry in Cincinnati (Edwards) that shipped military items. Dunage was a big cost item and DUNAGE FREE box cars became a new product from the rail equipment suppliers. He negotiated a tariff that included those cars. They were captive to this so the rate included return empty upon release terms. RR was happy and so was the company. He died in '94 and that Edwards company is gone.
Balt was spot on above concerning private cars on private tracks. When I was still working in the chemical industry, we in effect trip leased the cars used for outbound shipments to the customer receiving them. Once spotted inside the customers site, no railroad demurrage was billed. Now, as the car owner/lessor, we did bill the customer if they held a car for more than 15 days but, that was between us and them.
Insofar as the original post, BNSF placing an interchange car on constructive placement is unusual. Normally, the car record would show it "offered" at interchange, not constructively placed. In the immediate instance, it's possible someone either accidentally entered the wrong code or, possibly, is gaming the cars held or cars on line metric by using constructive placemen.
Juniata ManBalt was spot on above concerning private cars on private tracks. When I was still working in the chemical industry, we in effect trip leased the cars used for outbound shipments to the customer receiving them. Once spotted inside the customers site, no railroad demurrage was billed. Now, as the car owner/lessor, we did bill the customer if they held a car for more than 15 days but, that was between us and them. Insofar as the original post, BNSF placing an interchange car on constructive placement is unusual. Normally, the car record would show it "offered" at interchange, not constructively placed. In the immediate instance, it's possible someone either accidentally entered the wrong code or, possibly, is gaming the cars held or cars on line metric by using constructive placemen.
When, for whatever the reason, one carrier is not able to interchange cars to another carrier in the normal course of business the carrier in possession of the cars will initiate a Car Hire Rule 15 reclaim against the carrier that was not able to accept the cars. The Reclaim starts from the date and time the carrier was in position to actually deliver the cars to the designated interchange track(s). As more cars move toward the designated interchange location and are then held up so as to not totally clog up the carriers operation at the interchange location, those cars get added to the Reclaim from the date and time they were held at the outlying location. All these procedures are specified in Car Hire Rule 15.
Needless to say Reclaim situations can create battle lines between carriers. I was not high enough on the food chain to really KNOW how these Reclaim Wars ultimately played out - wether money actually changed hands or not. I suspect there was a lot of 'negotiations' between the carriers to resolve these issues.
Car Hire Rules cover a multitude of issues that crop up between car owners and car users - be that Private owners and users or Railroad owners and users and combinations of both.
Is this a game of "My LAWYER is better than YOUR LAWYER"?
Electroliner 1935Is this a game of "My LAWYER is better than YOUR LAWYER"?
NO! It is more of a game that My Horse Trader is better then Your Horse Trader - while some 'facts' do enter into the negotiations it tends to end up being I am screwing you at A and you are screwing me at K and the negotations end up being about the relative values of the screwings at A & K. Personnel at 'ground level' were rarely if ever get advised of the ultimate outcome of their actions.
Just guessing those Car Hire Rule 15 battles are the genesis for moving interchange locations like CN/CP in Chicago?
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