Laying off using FMLA is not subject to penalty points for attendence policies. It's a Federal law and the railroads hate it.
The major railroads answer to Wall Street. They want low operating ratios (because it's an easy number to bandy about) and high stock prices. Cutting yourself to prosperity is, in their view, the way to go. When they're very choosy on new business they pick up, cutting is all that's left.
Everytime I think they've run out of places to cut, they find some way to cut more.
Jeff
Well for what it is worth. Given the railroad employee descriptions of the attendence policy (policies)...........I think they are pretty crappy and if it were me I would leave the field entirely, though I know that is not a favorable option for someone that has invested a lot in years and has seniority built up.
First of all understood it is optional for the employer to pay but I feel strongly FMLA should be paid time off at full pay and you should not be penalized for taking it in anyway. It is where I work. It's not a boat load of money because of the other requirements of FMLA it's not easy to commit Fraud here either. That is just the employer being a cheap skate.
Second, you should be able to make appointments for personal items without the job getting in the way (thats really crappy).....I could do that in the military for the most part unless we were deploying. I cannot believe the management structure of the railroad industry is such they feel a need to intrude here.
zugmann ns145 Instead of striking, a few thousand BNSF employee should use up their all their points at the same time and get simultaneous suspensions. Sounds great in theory, but who will go first?
ns145 Instead of striking, a few thousand BNSF employee should use up their all their points at the same time and get simultaneous suspensions.
Sounds great in theory, but who will go first?
Yep, that's the rub. The fix is in. And, without the power to conduct effective strikes that could potentially shutdown the entire US rail network, I don't see how the rail labor unions can get themselves out of it.
ns145Instead of striking, a few thousand BNSF employee should use up their all their points at the same time and get simultaneous suspensions.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
It's been said that a seniority district on the southern portion of UP had an overwhelming number of people run afoul of the policy. That's why they revised it somewhat.
The attendence policy is a quality of life issue, not necessarily a rest and fatigue issue. It's about either working or being tied to your phone waiting to be called to work. Not being able to schedule anything in advance with any certainty that you will be able to attend.
Yes, we have paid days off in lieu of paid holidays for road assignments. Yes, we have vacation and can convert some weeks to single days, to be used like the paid leave. However, the company can deny the use of those single days if manpower is tight. And it's almost always tight.
The policies are designed to have the absolute fewest number of active employees. However, having the fewest people on a board sometimes comes back to bite them. The people start working too much and then have to have 48/72 hours off. Which leads to more people working too much and also having to take the Federal Requirement. And that Federal Required time off rarely falls when you need it for something specific.
Although rail labor has lost some ground compared to previous generations of railroaders, we still are at the top of wages for blue collar industries. I believe that is part of the reason senior (and some not so senior) railroad management treat their field workers the way they do.
BaltACD ns145 rdamon Like this .. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-engineer-burnout-get-more-hours-out-of-day-2022-1 That's a start, but Amazon needs to "Hunterize" the process. If employees aren't quitting at a record pace, then you aren't pressing them hard enough. Push them until something breaks. Productivity at all costs. Make your employees long for the cold comfort of the grave - https://dilbert.com/strip/2008-02-03 Who will be the railroader's Spartacus and lead the railroaders slave revolt?
ns145 rdamon Like this .. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-engineer-burnout-get-more-hours-out-of-day-2022-1 That's a start, but Amazon needs to "Hunterize" the process. If employees aren't quitting at a record pace, then you aren't pressing them hard enough. Push them until something breaks. Productivity at all costs. Make your employees long for the cold comfort of the grave - https://dilbert.com/strip/2008-02-03
rdamon Like this .. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-engineer-burnout-get-more-hours-out-of-day-2022-1
Like this ..
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-engineer-burnout-get-more-hours-out-of-day-2022-1
That's a start, but Amazon needs to "Hunterize" the process. If employees aren't quitting at a record pace, then you aren't pressing them hard enough. Push them until something breaks. Productivity at all costs. Make your employees long for the cold comfort of the grave - https://dilbert.com/strip/2008-02-03
Who will be the railroader's Spartacus and lead the railroaders slave revolt?
Instead of striking, a few thousand BNSF employee should use up their all their points at the same time and get simultaneous suspensions. Bet that would get BNSF's attention real quick. So ironic that BNSF threatens suspensions to deal with employees not being available for work enough. If I were an evil corporate type I'd think of a way to force them to work more as a form of punishment. Good thing that I am neither evil nor a corporate type.
Believing in capitalism and the free market, I am inclined to say that BNSF isn't paying their employees enough money to compensate them properly for the poor working conditions that they must endure. The punitive attendance schemes devised by the Class I's betray the fact that the rail labor market is not a free one.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Can you just imagine how many other Fortune 500 companies could get their operating ratios below 60 if they were able under staff and over work their employees like the railroads do? It's appalling how little the railroads are held to account by the FRA. Even more so when it is so well known that the unpredictable work schedules of railroaders leads to the chronic fatigue connected with so many accidents. PTC in a way is an admission of the problem and a means to continue it. If a train crew falls asleep no big deal. PTC will safely stop the train and then we'll fire the train crew. Rinse and repeat.
I wonder how many railroad CEO's would be willing to take a flight on their corporate jet if the pilots had the same fatigue level as a typical Class I locomotive engineer? I'd guess not.
I'm all for capitalism, but there has to be sensible balance of power between management, stockholders, employees, and shippers. Hard to argue that's been the case for a long time.
mvlandsw BaltACD While not germane to T&E working conditions...at one location I worked the Yardmaster's Relief Job was scheduled - Monday 11P-7A, Tuesday & Wednesday 3P-11P, Thursday & Friday 7A-3P - with the rest period for the assignment being from 3PM on Friday to 11 PM on Monday. Some T&E yard relief jobs work similiar schedules. Few of them get their time off through weekends or for that many hours.
BaltACD While not germane to T&E working conditions...at one location I worked the Yardmaster's Relief Job was scheduled - Monday 11P-7A, Tuesday & Wednesday 3P-11P, Thursday & Friday 7A-3P - with the rest period for the assignment being from 3PM on Friday to 11 PM on Monday.
While not germane to T&E working conditions...at one location I worked the Yardmaster's Relief Job was scheduled - Monday 11P-7A, Tuesday & Wednesday 3P-11P, Thursday & Friday 7A-3P - with the rest period for the assignment being from 3PM on Friday to 11 PM on Monday.
Some T&E yard relief jobs work similiar schedules. Few of them get their time off through weekends or for that many hours.
May have worked when the T&E rest period was 8 hours. Now that it is 10 hours it would not work.
Yardmasters are not HOS covered employees and as such do not have legally enforceable rest requirements. It is a frequent occurrence for Yardmasters to 'double' ie. work more than one tour of duty - thus 16 hours (oe more) consecutively.
It is not uncommon for Yard personnel to 'double'; however the HOS rule make that a work extension of 4 hours for the individual involved - 4 hours worked for 8 hours pay. Maximum HOS work period is 12 hours.
Working with a C & S gang in Cincinnati as a Co-op student back in the late 50's, on pay day, we would take the truck to a bank to cash the paychecks. During the week the men always said they didn't know math. However, on payday, they knew to the penny what the check should be. Great guys.
BaltACDIn every form of human endeavor one has alway had to know how to 'game the system' to be able survive they system.
Sounds like the tax code.
Every rule needs additional rules to take care of all the exceptions people find.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Lithonia OperatorIt seems like you have to be the railroad equivalent to a "jailhouse lawyer." An "engine-cab HR pro."
An "engine-cab HR pro."
It always has been.
In every form of human endeavor one has alway had to know how to 'game the system' to be able survive they system.
It seems like you have to be the railroad equivalent to a "jailhouse lawyer."
Still in training.
Here's UP's policy.
https://ble-t.com/resc/pdf_tey_attendance_072821.pdf
It mentions "full time employee" but that's not measured by a 40 hour work week as most people know. We've lost some who averaged way over that for a 90 day period, but still exceeded layoff points.
Edit: That's the first revision. It;s been revised since then. It made some better, but some of those were reset to the original policy. Mainly 28 uninterupted days working or available for 7 points back.
I think they get 4 points back. We get 7 points after 28 days. I believe both reset, the 2 or 28 day period starts over, if one have a layoff that doesn't result in points being assessed. Such as a paid leave or vacation day.
At least ours "age" off after 90 days. BNSF's sound like they can only be worked off. They never age out.
Not sure what language this policy is written in, but I don't think it is English. Question- it refers to the availability of "credits" meaning the points are added back to an employee's point availability if they don't the points deducted during a 14 day period? If so, how many points?
Lithonia OperatorI find the Hi-Viz policy indecipherable. But if you alread have a pretty good head for this stuff, this article may shed some more light. https://www.railwayage.com/freight/bnsf-hi-viz-attendance-policy-rankling-rank-and-file/ One thing good about the article is that they got input from actual railroaders.
https://www.railwayage.com/freight/bnsf-hi-viz-attendance-policy-rankling-rank-and-file/
One thing good about the article is that they got input from actual railroaders.
Reading through Hi-Vis it looks like something that was put together by a teenage video gamer. Railroaders are not video game avatars to be jerked around.
I find the Hi-Viz policy indecipherable. But if you alread have a pretty good head for this stuff, this article may shed some more light.
Lithonia OperatorI used to work SatSun 7-3, MonTues 3-11, WedThurs 11-7. So my "two days off" added up to 32 hours. I was a "relief man." The schedule sucked.
The schedule I was working in my final year of college. Was able to schedule all my classes after 8 AM and most before Noon. Had on Noon to 1 PM class my final Quarter - It was the last for credit college class I ever attended when it was dismissed at 1 PM May 4, 1970.
I used to work SatSun 7-3, MonTues 3-11, WedThurs 11-7. So my "two days off" added up to 32 hours. I was a "relief man." The schedule sucked.
jeffhergert For about six months to a year many years ago, there was a pilot project that started out with the extra boards, both enginemen and trainmen. If it had worked, it was to be extended to the pools. We worked 7 days on, 3 days off. If you worked into the first off day, your off time was extended by however long you worked. It gave some idea of when you were going to work and when you would be off. You could actually schedule appointments knowing you could make it to them. If you wanted to work your off days, you could request extra work. (I don't recall anyone ever doing so.) In my home terminal, a busy terminal, we worked on our rest. But then you knew you were going to have some time off. The railroad eventually cancelled it. It was because at some terminals, usually outlaying small ones, the extra board either didn't turn fast enough or would mostly catch yard jobs. Those extra boards would get paid guarantee every half. The railroads have always hated paying guarantee, even before PSR. Here's an idea for rest days for irregular unassigned road and extra boards. Road pools, where you normally go out one day, home the next could have 6 work days then a rest day. It could be 6 starts then 24 hours off instead of calendar days. Extra boards could have something like that, patterned after the current HOS requirements. Work 6 or 7 starts, no matter if there is a 24 hour break between tours of duty, and then 24 hours off. Personally, for both I think 36 hours off is better. That way you actually have some personal time if you tie up at 4am. Time off waiting for a call does not always allow someone to schedule something at the last minute. You need scheduled time off for that. We do have on the road pools and extra boards, personal paid leave time. However, that's granted according to the railroad's manpower needs. If there's no extra board, you aren't going to get a paid day off. You either then reschedule an appointment or lay off uncompensated and get points for the lay off. I've had to reschedule Dr appointments 2 or 3 times before actually making it to one. Jeff Jeff
For about six months to a year many years ago, there was a pilot project that started out with the extra boards, both enginemen and trainmen. If it had worked, it was to be extended to the pools.
We worked 7 days on, 3 days off. If you worked into the first off day, your off time was extended by however long you worked. It gave some idea of when you were going to work and when you would be off. You could actually schedule appointments knowing you could make it to them. If you wanted to work your off days, you could request extra work. (I don't recall anyone ever doing so.)
In my home terminal, a busy terminal, we worked on our rest. But then you knew you were going to have some time off. The railroad eventually cancelled it. It was because at some terminals, usually outlaying small ones, the extra board either didn't turn fast enough or would mostly catch yard jobs. Those extra boards would get paid guarantee every half. The railroads have always hated paying guarantee, even before PSR.
Here's an idea for rest days for irregular unassigned road and extra boards.
Road pools, where you normally go out one day, home the next could have 6 work days then a rest day. It could be 6 starts then 24 hours off instead of calendar days.
Extra boards could have something like that, patterned after the current HOS requirements. Work 6 or 7 starts, no matter if there is a 24 hour break between tours of duty, and then 24 hours off.
Personally, for both I think 36 hours off is better. That way you actually have some personal time if you tie up at 4am.
Time off waiting for a call does not always allow someone to schedule something at the last minute. You need scheduled time off for that. We do have on the road pools and extra boards, personal paid leave time. However, that's granted according to the railroad's manpower needs. If there's no extra board, you aren't going to get a paid day off. You either then reschedule an appointment or lay off uncompensated and get points for the lay off.
I've had to reschedule Dr appointments 2 or 3 times before actually making it to one.
Lol, this reminds me of my military days working on a watch floor. We worked 4 swings (4-12) 4 mids (12-8) and 4 days (8-4) with a 24-hr transition between shifts, then 96 hours off, rinse and repeat. Management -- all of whom worked straight days, of course -- called this schedule "4-1-4-1-4-4" but we worker bees called it what it really was, "12 and 3," because the transition periods weren't really a break.
Clearly, the perception of what constitutes time off depends on one's perspective. If you actually live the schedule, you know what a break actually is.
SFbrkmn jeffhergert Assements of points are based on either assigned or unassigned service and the day of the wk layoff takes place. I also failed to metion that in part 2, section c, you will have two hrs to place yourself to anoher job once an accept notify on bump board takes place. If not, points come off. This is a direct violation of the labor agreement which states, once after accepting a bump notification, eng service workers have up to 24 hrs for placement, ground service is 48. I have heard that HR is being slammed w/applications for Family Leave. Many workers already have it. I may go same way as my wife at some point is looking at knee replacement and both my parents, in their 80s, have more than desired doc appts, some which require driving to Wichita. Why its called Hi Viz makes no sense as safety vests do come to mind. Baffles me.
jeffhergert Assements of points are based on either assigned or unassigned service and the day of the wk layoff takes place. I also failed to metion that in part 2, section c, you will have two hrs to place yourself to anoher job once an accept notify on bump board takes place. If not, points come off. This is a direct violation of the labor agreement which states, once after accepting a bump notification, eng service workers have up to 24 hrs for placement, ground service is 48. I have heard that HR is being slammed w/applications for Family Leave. Many workers already have it. I may go same way as my wife at some point is looking at knee replacement and both my parents, in their 80s, have more than desired doc appts, some which require driving to Wichita. Why its called Hi Viz makes no sense as safety vests do come to mind. Baffles me.
That violation of the contract concerning time to place yourself being bumped maybe why BNSF employees may be able to strike and UP ones couldn't. We don't get assessed points, that I'm aware of, for time after being displaced.
For us technically, once displayed from an assignment, one is placed on the "bump board" which is considered an extra board. You can be called off this board if the regular extra board is depleted. (That is, if you answer the phone.) We're different in that engineers have 48 hours, trainmen 24 hours to place on another assignment. After that time expires, a person isn't supposed to be able to bump any junior person. The only way off is supposed to be by either bidding a vacancy or by being forced to bump the lowest junior assigned person on the district.
There is a penalty that if one was displaced from a guaranteed board, they must place on another guaranteed board within 3 hours or lose the guarantee for the half.
Euclid In a many non-railroad job, hourly employees are expected to work 40 hours a week, often as 5 days a week. So they get 2 days a week off. Often employees call in requesting an extra day off for some special reason. Most companies will tolerate the extra day off only if it is very infrequent such as only 4 times per year. So the normal 40 hours is expected, and the extra days off randomly requested by the employee are not expected, but generally accommodated. So with the expected 5 days of work, that leaves 2 days per week off as expected. Any requested for more than the expected days off is unexpected. Regarding the railroad dispute: Is it over the company denying the expected time off? Or is it over the request for extra time off?
In a regular 9-5 job there is one major difference. You always know when you will will be working, and when you won't. So you can plan around that.
I work a 6-2 pool so yes I get 2 days off, but that does not mean you will actually get they days you were scheduled for. Often you get called right before your first scheduled day and wind up working through both days. You get the time off when you get back but if you had plans for the second day you will be out of town. And now you cant mark off before without getting points.
You can say that we knew this when hireing out, but thats not true even at CSX. I've got nearly 20 years in T&E and can assure you it was not always like this.
That's why they are thinking about going on strike over this.
Big Cat Do CSX and NS have a points based attendance system also? CSX does, and it has been revised a few times to make it harder to get rid of the points.
Do CSX and NS have a points based attendance system also?
jeffhergert Assements of points are based on either assigned or unassigned service and the day of the wk layoff takes place. I also failed to metion that in part 2, section c, you will have two hrs to place yourself to anoher job once an accept notify on bump board takes place. If not, points come off. This is a direct violation of the labor agreement which states, once after accepting a bump notification, eng service workers have up to 24 hrs for placement, ground service is 48. I have heard that HR is being slammed w/applications for Family Leave. Many workers already have it. I may go same way as my wife at some point is looking at knee replacement and both my parents, in their 80s, have more than desired doc appts, some which require driving to Wichita. Why its called Hi Viz makes no sense as safety vests do come to mind. Baffles me. SFbrkmn Here are some quick stats of Hi-Viz policy: 1. Points are capped @ 30 and reduced for different levels of layoffs from 2 points to 25 points. When points reach zero, its 10 days off 1st offense, 20 days 2nd time and subject to dismissal 3rd time. 2. On the first pair of no-no's, points will reset at only 15 and will take two yrs to be reset @ the full 30 provided employee has no other issues. Working w/ a max of 15 points for two yrs will make it razor thin impossble to stay in compliance. We are talking of good reliable employees that could lose their jobs here. If this does become the law of the land, workers will have to do whatever needed to stay marked up. I look for many workers to be bringing their kids to work if the need arises. I'm assuming (hate to do that) that the different points depend on assignment and the difference between weekdays, weekends and holidays? Our extra boards are assessed the lowest number of points for weekday layoffs. I'm also assuming (there I go again) that BNSF reserved the right to be able to give lesser holidays and days of perceived high volume layoffs full holiday status for assessing points. All of a sudden Mother's Day and the first day of hunting season are equal to Christmas Day for layoff points. And why do they call it Hi-Viz? It makes it sound like it's a policy about high visiblity clothing. Do you have a lot of people with Family Medical Leave? We have quite a few with it, and more were able to obtain it after our policy changed. Jeff
SFbrkmn Here are some quick stats of Hi-Viz policy: 1. Points are capped @ 30 and reduced for different levels of layoffs from 2 points to 25 points. When points reach zero, its 10 days off 1st offense, 20 days 2nd time and subject to dismissal 3rd time. 2. On the first pair of no-no's, points will reset at only 15 and will take two yrs to be reset @ the full 30 provided employee has no other issues. Working w/ a max of 15 points for two yrs will make it razor thin impossble to stay in compliance. We are talking of good reliable employees that could lose their jobs here. If this does become the law of the land, workers will have to do whatever needed to stay marked up. I look for many workers to be bringing their kids to work if the need arises.
Here are some quick stats of Hi-Viz policy:
1. Points are capped @ 30 and reduced for different levels of layoffs from 2 points to 25 points. When points reach zero, its 10 days off 1st offense, 20 days 2nd time and subject to dismissal 3rd time.
2. On the first pair of no-no's, points will reset at only 15 and will take two yrs to be reset @ the full 30 provided employee has no other issues. Working w/ a max of 15 points for two yrs will make it razor thin impossble to stay in compliance. We are talking of good reliable employees that could lose their jobs here.
If this does become the law of the land, workers will have to do whatever needed to stay marked up. I look for many workers to be bringing their kids to work if the need arises.
I'm assuming (hate to do that) that the different points depend on assignment and the difference between weekdays, weekends and holidays? Our extra boards are assessed the lowest number of points for weekday layoffs.
I'm also assuming (there I go again) that BNSF reserved the right to be able to give lesser holidays and days of perceived high volume layoffs full holiday status for assessing points. All of a sudden Mother's Day and the first day of hunting season are equal to Christmas Day for layoff points.
And why do they call it Hi-Viz? It makes it sound like it's a policy about high visiblity clothing.
Do you have a lot of people with Family Medical Leave? We have quite a few with it, and more were able to obtain it after our policy changed.
jeffhergert SFbrkmn Here are some quick stats of Hi-Viz policy: 1. Points are capped @ 30 and reduced for different levels of layoffs from 2 points to 25 points. When points reach zero, its 10 days off 1st offense, 20 days 2nd time and subject to dismissal 3rd time. 2. On the first pair of no-no's, points will reset at only 15 and will take two yrs to be reset @ the full 30 provided employee has no other issues. Working w/ a max of 15 points for two yrs will make it razor thin impossble to stay in compliance. We are talking of good reliable employees that could lose their jobs here. If this does become the law of the land, workers will have to do whatever needed to stay marked up. I look for many workers to be bringing their kids to work if the need arises. I'm assuming (hate to do that) that the different points depend on assignment and the difference between weekdays, weekends and holidays? Our extra boards are assessed the lowest number of points for weekday layoffs. I'm also assuming (there I go again) that BNSF reserved the right to be able to give lesser holidays and days of perceived high volume layoffs full holiday status for assessing points. All of a sudden Mother's Day and the first day of hunting season are equal to Christmas Day for layoff points. And why do they call it Hi-Viz? It makes it sound like it's a policy about high visiblity clothing. Do you have a lot of people with Family Medical Leave? We have quite a few with it, and more were able to obtain it after our policy changed. Jeff
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