Well this isn't going to help the ports of the LA that much if the strike happens. Over an attendence policy that BNSF implemented recently. Obviously the White House will insist on the cooling off period but will the Unions abide by that? Interesting developments and time will tell I guess.
"Why can't we get people to work for us?"
--every class 1.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann "Why can't we get people to work for us?" --every class 1.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The "jungle telegraph" is pretty strong, especially in this Internet day and age. If you're a lousy place to work the word gets around pretty quickly, even more so in certain businesses.
A current BNSF employee posted an update on a facebook group that BNSF has sued the unions trying to strike over this. According to the attorneys on the case the attendance policy does not violate anything in the current labor contract, and that any work stoppage would violate the railway labor act. Get your popcorn ready..
So, briefly, exactly what is the disputed policy?
Points for brevity...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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tree68 So, briefly, exactly what is the disputed policy? Points for brevity...
BNSF is going to a point based attendance policy a la UP.
SD60MAC9500 tree68 So, briefly, exactly what is the disputed policy? Points for brevity... BNSF is going to a point based attendance policy a la UP.
Anyone remember:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwMVMbmQBug
We don't have enough people so let's terminate some. Great logic.
BackshopI'm on an "outdoors" forum and one of the members is a BNSF employee in the Dakotas somewhere. I guess things are so busy that you're continually being called as soon as your rest period is over. If you try to mark off too many days to have an actual life
Reminds me of something Don Imus said years ago. When he got out of the Marines his first job was working for the Santa Fe RR. He worked for them as a brakeman for about a year, said he was making good money but quit because he never got a day off, and no chance to spend the money! So he moved on.
If they did strike the BNSF would've found a Federal Judge to declare it an illegal work action. (The BNSF lawsuit is a good way to get that declaration before there is a work stoppage.) It most likely would never reach Biden's desk. That attendence is a policy and not something clearly outlined in labor agreements is why the BLE&T or SMART didn't try to strike over it. "Reasonable" time off to be allowd is in the agreements, but it's not clearly defined. Both unions sued the UP, but the lawsuit was dismissed by the court.
It's different from the UP policy in some ways from what little I've read about it. I don't know if the same number of points are assessed to through freight pool, extra board, and yard or local assignments. UP uses different points for the different classes of assignments. Extra boards get assessed the least, so could layoff more in a 90 day period then working a pool assignment.
One difference is that on UP the points can "age off" after 90 days. UP has a provision for "working off" points after staying marked up for 28 days. (You earn 7 points for each 28 day period.) It sounds like on BNSF they have to be worked off. There is no provision for them to age off after a period of time. The BNSF gives 4 points for every 14 days staying marked up. Both UP and BNSF restart the clock on working off points if one takes a paid day off. For awhile, UP just paused the clock if one took a day off. You didn't restart after every layoff. Now it's back to restart.
UP modified the policy twice, so far. The first change, along with allowing a pause instead of a reset for the working off clock, was to have the first violation of the 28 point threshold result in a second 28 point period instead of dismissal. If you reach 28 points or more, you go to an investigation and if you lose (as you will) you get a 36 month probationary period. You can sign for the violation, waiving the investigation, and receive a 24 month probationary period.
The second revision changed the work clock back to reset instead of a pause. It was said the first revision happened because on one district they had so many run afoul of the 28 points. They had the dilemma of dismissing everyone and not having anyone to work or changing the policy. Other places, some were brought back on "leniency" where they had their points reduced and placed on probation. That is, after signing for the leniency.
The way these policies are going to get rescinded and the older milder versions restored is by the railroad losing dismissal cases in arbitraition. Once it costs the railroad a large amount of backpay that they'll pay out in wrongfull termination, they'll change their minds. Any time an employee signs for either leniency or probation, thereby admitting that they agree they are guilty, it can ruin any chance when going to arbitration.
I must say, that if they're turning on their rest they'll be getting 48 or 72 hours off after 6 or 7 consecutive starts. Of course, that time off doesn't always line up with needed appointments. Life happens, and now multiple unexpected emergencies can get one terminated.
Jeff
Hell of a way to run a railroad.
Do CSX and NS have a points based attendance system also?
What is the scale of this dispute over number of days off taken? How many days off per year would employees think are reasonable. How many do the company think is reasonable? There must be quite a large disagreement.
EuclidWhat is the scale of this dispute over number of days off taken? How many days off per year would employees think are reasonable. How many do the company think is reasonable? There must be quite a large disagreement.
Carriers believe the statutory required rest periods are more than adequated 'family time' for operating employees. Wanting any more time off makes one a total slacker.
BaltACD Euclid What is the scale of this dispute over number of days off taken? How many days off per year would employees think are reasonable. How many do the company think is reasonable? There must be quite a large disagreement. Carriers believe the statutory required rest periods are more than adequated 'family time' for operating employees. Wanting any more time off makes one a total slacker.
Euclid What is the scale of this dispute over number of days off taken? How many days off per year would employees think are reasonable. How many do the company think is reasonable? There must be quite a large disagreement.
That doesn't seem to answer my question. What would be considered to be a fair number of days off per year in the opinion of an employee?
Euclid BaltACD Euclid What is the scale of this dispute over number of days off taken? How many days off per year would employees think are reasonable. How many do the company think is reasonable? There must be quite a large disagreement. Carriers believe the statutory required rest periods are more than adequated 'family time' for operating employees. Wanting any more time off makes one a total slacker. That doesn't seem to answer my question. What would be considered to be a fair number of days off per year in the opinion of an employee?
Two each week as a minimum.
Railroads are the epitome of Slave Masters and feature they OWN their employees.
The fact that you even have to as the question indicates just how far you are away from the reality of railroad operations.
Why don't the RRs just hire more employees? Because they'd have to pay them benefits?
Do the unions resist the company adding employees, because then there is less income per person?
Why is a middle ground so hard to find? You'd think the carriers would not want exhausted crew running their trains.
Still in training.
Lithonia OperatorWhy don't the RRs just hire more employees? Because they'd have to pay them benefits?
Based on what I've learned about non-railroad businesses, that's exactly it.
Essentially, it's cheaper to pay overtime to existing employees than to hire another person.
Of course, the railroads are somewhat limited by HOS rules, but I think the premise holds.
Of course, the variable there is that RR crews are not salaried. They are essentially "on call" and get paid only for hours actually worked. Assuming a consistent number of trains, adding more crews does decrease each person's share of the pot.
Some crews - locals and the like - do enjoy somewhat regular hours.
I guess afer BNSF put so many people on furlow it will seem pretty busy.
tree68 Lithonia Operator Why don't the RRs just hire more employees? Because they'd have to pay them benefits? Based on what I've learned about non-railroad businesses, that's exactly it. Essentially, it's cheaper to pay overtime to existing employees than to hire another person. Of course, the railroads are somewhat limited by HOS rules, but I think the premise holds. Of course, the variable there is that RR crews are not salaried. They are essentially "on call" and get paid only for hours actually worked. Assuming a consistent number of trains, adding more crews does decrease each person's share of the pot. Some crews - locals and the like - do enjoy somewhat regular hours.
Lithonia Operator Why don't the RRs just hire more employees? Because they'd have to pay them benefits?
All our regular extra boards, are guaranteed boards. The road conductor's freight pools are guaranteed. They're paid by the half of the month, our pay period. Yard jobs and locals also have a guarantee based on a full month. road freight engineer pools don't have a guarantee.
There are formulas for balancing the various boards. The railroads control the guaranteed boards as to staffing levels. The union local chairman is supposed to balance the non guaranteed boards, but the railroad can and does overrule the LC.
In my area, they seem to like to keep the engineer's extra board (guaranteed) tight. They keep the engineer's road pool (nonguaranteed) flush. I often get called to see if I want to work assigned jobs (yards or locals) that are either on their off day or the assigned person layed off. Sometimes, for jobs that are on a territory I'm not qualified on, a quirk of the computer call system. I don't have to accept those calls and normally I don't. I think my record is getting called 3 times on one day (actually night) for off assignment work.
Anymore, If I'm not first out, or at least first available, I don't answer the phone.
For about six months to a year many years ago, there was a pilot project that started out with the extra boards, both enginemen and trainmen. If it had worked, it was to be extended to the pools.
We worked 7 days on, 3 days off. If you worked into the first off day, your off time was extended by however long you worked. It gave some idea of when you were going to work and when you would be off. You could actually schedule appointments knowing you could make it to them. If you wanted to work your off days, you could request extra work. (I don't recall anyone ever doing so.)
In my home terminal, a busy terminal, we worked on our rest. But then you knew you were going to have some time off. The railroad eventually cancelled it. It was because at some terminals, usually outlaying small ones, the extra board either didn't turn fast enough or would mostly catch yard jobs. Those extra boards would get paid guarantee every half. The railroads have always hated paying guarantee, even before PSR.
Here's an idea for rest days for irregular unassigned road and extra boards.
Road pools, where you normally go out one day, home the next could have 6 work days then a rest day. It could be 6 starts then 24 hours off instead of calendar days.
Extra boards could have something like that, patterned after the current HOS requirements. Work 6 or 7 starts, no matter if there is a 24 hour break between tours of duty, and then 24 hours off.
Personally, for both I think 36 hours off is better. That way you actually have some personal time if you tie up at 4am.
Time off waiting for a call does not always allow someone to schedule something at the last minute. You need scheduled time off for that. We do have on the road pools and extra boards, personal paid leave time. However, that's granted according to the railroad's manpower needs. If there's no extra board, you aren't going to get a paid day off. You either then reschedule an appointment or lay off uncompensated and get points for the lay off.
I've had to reschedule Dr appointments 2 or 3 times before actually making it to one.
Euclid In a many non-railroad job, hourly employees are expected to work 40 hours a week, often as 5 days a week. So they get 2 days a week off. Often employees call in requesting an extra day off for some special reason. Most companies will tolerate the extra day off only if it is very infrequent such as only 4 times per year. So the normal 40 hours is expected, and the extra days off randomly requested by the employee are not expected, but generally accommodated. So with the expected 5 days of work, that leaves 2 days per week off as expected. Any requested for more than the expected days off is unexpected. Regarding the railroad dispute: Is it over the company denying the expected time off? Or is it over the request for extra time off?
In healthcare, many hourly paid RNs and others work 10hrs X4 days or even 12hrs X 3 days, paid as 40.
Backshop Euclid BaltACD Euclid What is the scale of this dispute over number of days off taken? How many days off per year would employees think are reasonable. How many do the company think is reasonable? There must be quite a large disagreement. Carriers believe the statutory required rest periods are more than adequated 'family time' for operating employees. Wanting any more time off makes one a total slacker. That doesn't seem to answer my question. What would be considered to be a fair number of days off per year in the opinion of an employee? How many days a week do you get off, and do you find that adequate?
How many days a week do you get off, and do you find that adequate?
Euclid Backshop Euclid BaltACD Euclid What is the scale of this dispute over number of days off taken? How many days off per year would employees think are reasonable. How many do the company think is reasonable? There must be quite a large disagreement. Carriers believe the statutory required rest periods are more than adequated 'family time' for operating employees. Wanting any more time off makes one a total slacker. That doesn't seem to answer my question. What would be considered to be a fair number of days off per year in the opinion of an employee? How many days a week do you get off, and do you find that adequate? I work as an independent contractor as needed, so I don’t have any predetermined schedule of work days and days off. I agree with the customer about the work to be done, price, and other terms. Then I work as fast as I can to get it done. I am usually trying to work more days rather than fewer days. I like free time, but I also like working.
ergo you have NO IDEA of what working on the operating side of a railroad is.
jeffhergertRoad pools, where you normally go out one day, home the next could have 6 work days then a rest day. It could be 6 starts then 24 hours off instead of calendar days. Extra boards could have something like that, patterned after the current HOS requirements. Work 6 or 7 starts, no matter if there is a 24 hour break between tours of duty, and then 24 hours off. Personally, for both I think 36 hours off is better. That way you actually have some personal time if you tie up at 4am.
Most of our pools are 6 and 2. 6 days on, 48 hours off.
My personal thoughts is it should be 60 hours off. I'm currently working a 5 day job and get a real weekend. But when I was on the xtra list subject to call (or even if I worked 6 days), I only got 48 hours off. And usually got called off my rest, to boot.
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