Trains.com

LCL: Norfolk Southern gets it..

11055 views
70 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,371 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, September 11, 2021 4:05 PM

Overmod
Any sort of LCL service on the old Railway Express Agency model is DOA for railroads; the valid point Backshop made being only one reason.  Even some of the LTL 'specialists' restrict service to the relatively 'granular' endpoints of 'terminals' or crossdock facilities (the latter effectively being used as 'cross dock' from LTL provider to the client picking up). What NS is doing is, to me, little different from what UP stopped doing with the cold service to Rotterdam:  getting enough aggregate LTL loading from various originating points to make up economic carload moves, then releasing the carload at one or more established crossdock facilities to whatever LTL or other providers will do 'last mile' (which of course may be considerable actual 'miles') most cost-effectively.  

They are unlikely to be using the Railway Express model for this business.  This isn’t express, it’s freight.  There is a difference.
As far as Backshop’s contention that the railroads should just stick to bulk commodities; Why?  If you can put money on the bottom line by hauling pink lilies, then haul pink lilies.   I don’t believe the NS went into this with the idea of loosing money.  I don’t know what kinds of terminal facilities they are using for the cross-dock operations.  Do you?
I am very tired of this “It won’t work, don’t even try, attitude.”  The railroad needs to do the market research and analysis as much as is reasonable.  If that shows promise, then try it.  If you never fail, you’re not trying hard enough.
This is absolutely nothing like the Union Pacific’s attempt at cold service to Rotterdam.  Absolutely nothing like it.  The UP went through a stupid time when they tried to shove everything into unit trains.  Perishables don’t belong in unit trains.  It takes way too long and way too much trucking to get a unit train of perishables together.  And the food is going to various destinations.  It just wasn’t unit train business.
The NS is not trying to create LCL unit trains.  They’re just adding a boxcar or two to an existing schedule.  That’s a huge difference from what the UP did.
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:51 AM

Any sort of LCL service on the old Railway Express Agency model is DOA for railroads; the valid point Backshop made being only one reason.  Even some of the LTL 'specialists' restrict service to the relatively 'granular' endpoints of 'terminals' or crossdock facilities (the latter effectively being used as 'cross dock' from LTL provider to the client picking up).

What NS is doing is, to me, little different from what UP stopped doing with the cold service to Rotterdam:  getting enough aggregate LTL loading from various originating points to make up economic carload moves, then releasing the carload at one or more established crossdock facilities to whatever LTL or other providers will do 'last mile' (which of course may be considerable actual 'miles') most cost-effectively.  

While it's complicated to figure out exactly what service reliability and 'precision scheduled' timing is necessary for various carloads in transit, and there's some fun looking at Amazon-style ways to decrease cost and to automate handling in the necessary transloading operations, I don't think it is rocket science to determine potentially profitable niches or to design services to fulfil them.  More specifically I can see how even assigning multiple dock stops to single cars might be practical in assisting 'local' LTL providers at either end of an overall trip, especially if more and more emphasis on day drayage trips and 'home every night' becomes observed.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Guelph, Ontario
  • 4,819 posts
Posted by Ulrich on Saturday, September 11, 2021 10:51 AM

Backshop

I think building up the needed infrastructure would be cost prohibitive.  All the freight houses, team tracks and even sidings have been razed or pulled up.  That's a lot of money that would need to be spent to figure out if "build it and they will come" will work in this case. Railroads biggest advantage over other types of transportation is in heavy and bulk items.  They should concentrate on that.

 

As common carriers they need to be open to serving a broad base of customers with diverse needs. The STB has recently made that very point..i.e. that railroads need to take their common carrier responsibilities more seriously or risk reregulation. Cherry picking bulk freight and refusing freight that doesn't yield a 58% OR is not an option.

There's no need for "build it and they will come"..best way to go about it would be to buy into it by purchasing an LTL carrier (or carriers). Instead of spending 33 billion on a railroad merger, buy one or more regional or even national LTL carriers.

I think  NS is on the right path although they have to move faster. The pace of change has accelerated..Amazon and Tesla were nowhere a decade ago..that's the pace it needs to move at. They've got to make this happen in months not years or risk becoming completely irrelevant.

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Saturday, September 11, 2021 10:31 AM

I think building up the needed infrastructure would be cost prohibitive.  All the freight houses, team tracks and even sidings have been razed or pulled up.  That's a lot of money that would need to be spent to figure out if "build it and they will come" will work in this case. Railroads biggest advantage over other types of transportation is in heavy and bulk items.  They should concentrate on that.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Guelph, Ontario
  • 4,819 posts
Posted by Ulrich on Friday, September 10, 2021 11:17 PM

greyhounds
LCL in boxcars is great.
 
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.  The US railroads didn’t abandon LCL service, they were driven out of it by the idiot government regulators.  Railroads such as the New York Central tried very hard to keep their LCL business but they were thwarted by the regulators.   And that’s a fact that I can back up with all kinds of research and data.
 
There are different ways to handle LCL/LTL.  But in this case, they’re using local trucks to pick up several smaller shipments from several shippers and bring them to a consolidation center.  At this center the shipments are sorted (“Cross Docked”) into a rail car going toward the destination on an expedited train.   At the destination terminal the rail car is unloaded into local delivery trucks.   This method works well.  A boxcar used in this service is essentially an intermodal car.  The truckers generally have to gather and cross dock too.
 
A boxcar used this way has an advantage on an over the road truck because it can handle much more volume and weight.   And hanging a boxcar or two on a train has very low marginal costs. If the railroad provides consistent, reasonably fast service they should have an advantage.
 
The main problem I see is that they are going into competition with a major customer.   FedEx is the largest LTL carrier in the US by revenue.  They ship a lot by rail.  You’ve got to think about it big time before you go into competition with a major customer.
 

That's a good point. But FedEx like the other true LTLs, becomes less competitive on the heavier LTL business... 5000 lbs and up, and also the ugly freight..longer than 20 ft..oddly shaped etc. And having a supplier who is also a competitor is pretty much par for the course in this industry..FedEx itself hires competitor carriers  on a regular basis.

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,371 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Friday, September 10, 2021 10:33 PM
LCL in boxcars is great.
 
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.  The US railroads didn’t abandon LCL service, they were driven out of it by the idiot government regulators.  Railroads such as the New York Central tried very hard to keep their LCL business but they were thwarted by the regulators.   And that’s a fact that I can back up with all kinds of research and data.
 
There are different ways to handle LCL/LTL.  But in this case, they’re using local trucks to pick up several smaller shipments from several shippers and bring them to a consolidation center.  At this center the shipments are sorted (“Cross Docked”) into a rail car going toward the destination on an expedited train.   At the destination terminal the rail car is unloaded into local delivery trucks.   This method works well.  A boxcar used in this service is essentially an intermodal car.  The truckers generally have to gather and cross dock too.
 
A boxcar used this way has an advantage on an over the road truck because it can handle much more volume and weight.   And hanging a boxcar or two on a train has very low marginal costs. If the railroad provides consistent, reasonably fast service they should have an advantage.
 
The main problem I see is that they are going into competition with a major customer.   FedEx is the largest LTL carrier in the US by revenue.  They ship a lot by rail.  You’ve got to think about it big time before you go into competition with a major customer.
"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 10, 2021 9:02 PM

tree68
When UPS was young, that was how you sent stuff that had to be there in a couple of days - much faster that the post office could do it.

FedEx was for stuff that had to be there tomorrow.

Nowadays, they're all about the same.  

Post Office under DeJoy is slower by 3 days to a week.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,020 posts
Posted by tree68 on Friday, September 10, 2021 7:31 PM

When UPS was young, that was how you sent stuff that had to be there in a couple of days - much faster that the post office could do it.

FedEx was for stuff that had to be there tomorrow.

Nowadays, they're all about the same.  

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Friday, September 10, 2021 1:38 PM

MP173

Union Pacific tried it in the 80s with purchase of Overnite Express...a very well run LTL carrier.  It didnt work out.

The NS LCL program really intrigues me.  Would like to know more about it.  I called NS and left a voice mail...no reply.  

Ed

 

UPS couldn't make Overnite (UPS Freight) work, either.  Maybe the company has been "sick" for a long time?

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Guelph, Ontario
  • 4,819 posts
Posted by Ulrich on Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:02 PM

MP173

Union Pacific tried it in the 80s with purchase of Overnite Express...a very well run LTL carrier.  It didnt work out.

The NS LCL program really intrigues me.  Would like to know more about it.  I called NS and left a voice mail...no reply.  

Ed

 

I knew Overnite would come up as it always does in this type of discussion. But that was 40 years ago, and Overnite wasn't a top notch carrier . The Wright Brothers also crashed their Flyer numerous times before finally achieving a sustained flight..yet we fly today. 

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,921 posts
Posted by MP173 on Thursday, September 9, 2021 8:31 PM

Union Pacific tried it in the 80s with purchase of Overnite Express...a very well run LTL carrier.  It didnt work out.

The NS LCL program really intrigues me.  Would like to know more about it.  I called NS and left a voice mail...no reply.  

Ed

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Guelph, Ontario
  • 4,819 posts
LCL: Norfolk Southern gets it..
Posted by Ulrich on Thursday, September 9, 2021 4:37 PM

Overshadowed by all the hype surrounding the CN/CP - KCS merger proposal is NS's foray into LCL (almost front page news in the latest Trains issue). Finally someone gets it! As most manufacturers are small(ish) most don't pump out truckload or carload volumes.. most ship in 1 skid to 5 skid increments, a market that the railroads have all but ignored now for 50 plus years.

Maybe the next step is the purchase of a large LTL carrier. We've done it in Canada a couple of years back with CN's purchase of TransX. Imagine Norfolk Southern buying a well run and well managed LTL outfit like Old Dominion.. the sky would be the limit. And maybe that would be better and faster than attempting to grow that business organically. 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy