Overmod In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee...
In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities.
That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California.
That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee...
I think J G Kneilling once suggested rebuilding the PCE for intermodal. Using integral trains, of course. Not in a "should be done" way, but more of a "could be done" one.
Jeff
What do you mean by "integral trains?"
Still in training.
Integral trains were a concept pushed by John G. Kneiling. See the January 1968 issue of TRAINS for a general description of the concept. The basics involved motive power and cars as a solid unit linked by drawbars. The cars were either container flats, covered hoppers or heavy duty flats for steel loads. The concept also included terminal designs for quick turnaround.
As I recall, Kneiling's concept also included traction motors distribued on the rolling stock throughout the train. I am not sure where he intended the prime movers to be located. But the idea was to elimante in-train forces and slack action by using the drawbars and perfectly distrubted motive power. I recall that he called these trains, "Land Ships." That referred to ships being a single transportation machine, as opposed to contemporary trains being a compostion of motive power units and loose car rolling stock.
Euclid That referred to ships being a single transportation machine, as opposed to contemporary trains being a compostion of motive power units and loose car rolling stock.
If there's a downside to this concept, it's that one bad axle puts the entire consist out of service.
There are plenty of examples of the basic concept - unit trains a case in point - but even though the consists generally stay together, the failure of a single car does not disable the entire consist. The bad car can usually be easily removed from the consist and the rest of the train can continue.
Kneiling probably didn't consider the possibility of three mile long land barges, either. I do suppose it would be possible to couple up several of his consists, however.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Integral trains seem quite impracticle.
tree68 Euclid That referred to ships being a single transportation machine, as opposed to contemporary trains being a compostion of motive power units and loose car rolling stock. If there's a downside to this concept, it's that one bad axle puts the entire consist out of service. There are plenty of examples of the basic concept - unit trains a case in point - but even though the consists generally stay together, the failure of a single car does not disable the entire consist. The bad car can usually be easily removed from the consist and the rest of the train can continue. Kneiling probably didn't consider the possibility of three mile long land barges, either. I do suppose it would be possible to couple up several of his consists, however.
Kneiling's concept was for basically flat cars that could accommodate any load because the loads would be in containers. He called the trains "land ships" as though they were like container ships. You bring the container and the ship sails with it.
And just because the flat cars are connected with drawbars, does not mean they cannot be separeted to remove a car that needs repair. The drawbars still have pins. Just call the roving conductor if any special service is required.
jeffhergertI think J G Kneilling once suggested rebuilding the PCE for intermodal. Using integral trains, of course. Jeff
OvermodIn my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee...
The whole deal with the Louisville route, and I say route because I don't think the Milwaukee ever owned a complete line connecting the two cities of Chicago and Louisville. Though I found out one item in my research, they had trackage rights in Chicago over a B&O terminal railroad to reach the Northern terminus of the line to Terre Haute.....I don't know where or what the end points were there.
But the whole deal with the Louisville line that excited people was because the Milwaukee owned the route it was considered an "Eastern" railroad for rate making. Not sure what that meant exactly in railroad terms but allegedly they could get very favorable rates on traffic over the PCE as they were considered an Eastern road with lines and a Terminal City East of Chicago.
The evidence is that the Milwaukee never really took advantage of that and even after they gained entry into Louisville, the line still hauled primarily coal North to Chicago and one by one the mines closed in Indiana until in 1973 ish......not a whole lot of coal headed North. Also by 1973, the PCE was suffering from deferred maintenence and slow orders. The one customer the Milwaukee put out a PR campaign about was Louisville Slugger baseball bats. Someone in Louisville told me that the Louisville Slugger bat plant was actually in Southern Indiana across the Ohio River from Louisville and not in Louisville itself.......which is ironic given the PR campaign.
Question from someone that knows nothing about the PCE: did any of the abandoned lines get purchased by competitors or shortlines?
jeffhergert Overmod In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee... I think J G Kneilling once suggested rebuilding the PCE for intermodal. Using integral trains, of course. Not in a "should be done" way, but more of a "could be done" one. Jeff
As I recall, Kneilling at the time thought a good integral train route opportunity was from the Twin Cities to Atlanta with key intermediate stops. 55-60 mph, 7 mile long, highly maintained trains on single track with sidings where needed. Manual order dispatching to take out cost of signaling. Long, narrow next to track "terminal" for slide on, slide off transfer of boxes. Providing low cost, reliable service.
CMStPnP Overmod In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee... The whole deal with the Louisville route, and I say route because I don't think the Milwaukee ever owned a complete line connecting the two cities of Chicago and Louisville. Though I found out one item in my research, they had trackage rights in Chicago over a B&O terminal railroad to reach the Northern terminus of the line to Terre Haute.....I don't know where or what the end points were there. But the whole deal with the Louisville line that excited people was because the Milwaukee owned the route it was considered an "Eastern" railroad for rate making. Not sure what that meant exactly in railroad terms but allegedly they could get very favorable rates on traffic over the PCE as they were considered an Eastern road with lines and a Terminal City East of Chicago. The evidence is that the Milwaukee never really took advantage of that and even after they gained entry into Louisville, the line still hauled primarily coal North to Chicago and one by one the mines closed in Indiana until in 1973 ish......not a whole lot of coal headed North. Also by 1973, the PCE was suffering from deferred maintenence and slow orders. The one customer the Milwaukee put out a PR campaign about was Louisville Slugger baseball bats. Someone in Louisville told me that the Louisville Slugger bat plant was actually in Southern Indiana across the Ohio River from Louisville and not in Louisville itself.......which is ironic given the PR campaign.
The Milwaukee did have at one time a line of its own that connected directly to its southern Illinois line. It originally started from Rockford, crossed its Omaha line at Kirkland, continued southeast through Dekalb and the southern edge of Aurora, Joliet, Peotone, Momence, then connected the south line at Delmar along the Indiana border. The Rockford-Kirkland segment was abandoned as it used the line to Davis Jct. with the Burlington. The bridge over the Fox River at Aurora is used as a bike trail today. The Kirkland-Dekalb segment was still in place in the late 70's. I used to cross it frequently when I was in grad school at NIU. The line bordered Camp Grant at the south edge of Rockford. CG was used as a staging area during WWI. A million men went to war through there. Lots of troop trains. Rockford was a wonderful place to grow up. Today, not the same. https://www.etsy.com/listing/718960678/1940-antique-chicago-milwaukee-st-paul?gbraid=0AAAAADtcfRIq0UmziI9kqO8unWEZFEzGj&gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_c-home_and_living-home_decor-globes_and_maps&utm_custom1=_k_EAIaIQobChMIgsrr9PWq9QIVbgOzAB0tRAksEAQYBSABEgLDpfD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12569671679_118325095134_507439143263_pla-306079773835_m__718960678_12749991&utm_custom2=12569671679&gbraid=0AAAAADtcfRIq0UmziI9kqO8unWEZFEzGj&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgsrr9PWq9QIVbgOzAB0tRAksEAQYBSABEgLDpfD_BwE
MJ4562 Question from someone that knows nothing about the PCE: did any of the abandoned lines get purchased by competitors or shortlines?
The part east of Terry MT thru SD was saved by SD and eventually bought by BN. BN also bought the line thru Snoqualmie Pass, but later scrapped it. UP bought Tacoma-Seattle. Port of Tacoma bought the line south of Tacoma to the Mt Rainier area. Shortlines bought the Lewiston branch, Metaline Falls branch and Port Angeles branch. A lumber company bought the line west of Avery.
Gramp CMStPnP Overmod In my opinion, the only point of the Louisville 'gateway' would be to rebuild it to sufficient quality to run bridge traffic, in that era probably primarily intermodal, over a similarly upgraded PCE to give assured end-to-end speed and QoS to and from PNW ports or other logical constellations of sources that could concentrate on a limited number of intermodal transfer facilities. That could provide for the PNW something close to comparable to ATSF to Southern California. That no real market for true high-speed intermodal actually developed in that era is perhaps a merciful blessing for the Milwaukee... The whole deal with the Louisville route, and I say route because I don't think the Milwaukee ever owned a complete line connecting the two cities of Chicago and Louisville. Though I found out one item in my research, they had trackage rights in Chicago over a B&O terminal railroad to reach the Northern terminus of the line to Terre Haute.....I don't know where or what the end points were there. But the whole deal with the Louisville line that excited people was because the Milwaukee owned the route it was considered an "Eastern" railroad for rate making. Not sure what that meant exactly in railroad terms but allegedly they could get very favorable rates on traffic over the PCE as they were considered an Eastern road with lines and a Terminal City East of Chicago. The evidence is that the Milwaukee never really took advantage of that and even after they gained entry into Louisville, the line still hauled primarily coal North to Chicago and one by one the mines closed in Indiana until in 1973 ish......not a whole lot of coal headed North. Also by 1973, the PCE was suffering from deferred maintenence and slow orders. The one customer the Milwaukee put out a PR campaign about was Louisville Slugger baseball bats. Someone in Louisville told me that the Louisville Slugger bat plant was actually in Southern Indiana across the Ohio River from Louisville and not in Louisville itself.......which is ironic given the PR campaign. The Milwaukee did have at one time a line of its own that connected directly to its southern Illinois line. It originally started from Rockford, crossed its Omaha line at Kirkland, continued southeast through Dekalb and the southern edge of Aurora, Joliet, Peotone, Momence, then connected the south line at Delmar along the Indiana border. The Rockford-Kirkland segment was abandoned as it used the line to Davis Jct. with the Burlington. The bridge over the Fox River at Aurora is used as a bike trail today. The Kirkland-Dekalb segment was still in place in the late 70's. I used to cross it frequently when I was in grad school at NIU. The line bordered Camp Grant at the south edge of Rockford. CG was used as a staging area during WWI. A million men went to war through there. Lots of troop trains. Rockford was a wonderful place to grow up. Today, not the same. https://www.etsy.com/listing/718960678/1940-antique-chicago-milwaukee-st-paul?gbraid=0AAAAADtcfRIq0UmziI9kqO8unWEZFEzGj&gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_c-home_and_living-home_decor-globes_and_maps&utm_custom1=_k_EAIaIQobChMIgsrr9PWq9QIVbgOzAB0tRAksEAQYBSABEgLDpfD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12569671679_118325095134_507439143263_pla-306079773835_m__718960678_12749991&utm_custom2=12569671679&gbraid=0AAAAADtcfRIq0UmziI9kqO8unWEZFEzGj&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgsrr9PWq9QIVbgOzAB0tRAksEAQYBSABEgLDpfD_BwE
So from what I was able to find online, the whole reason they got involved in the coal fields in Southern Indiana in the first place was to secure a source of fuel for their steam locomotives as they were fearful of larger interests controlling access to coal which might not be friendly to the railroad.
There is a very interesting series of articles online "Latta Laments" written by Mike Dettmers who was a dispatcher for CP - the Louisville - Chicago line.
The series is on the Haley Tower (Terre Haute) website.
haleytower.org/x/laments
Well worth reading.
Ed
1. Do all of you get a bizarre page if you go to this thread the normal way by clicking on the last post?
2. Some portions were abandoned or now used by short lines. Is the ROW intact? Could it be daylighted and used as a Kneiling orTesla train to expedite containers from NW ports? That would add capacity and allow some relief from LA and LB ports.
Yes, when I click on the link for the lastest post, I receive the following:
Either the site is offline or an unhandled error occurred. We apologize and have logged the error. Please try your request again or if you know who your site administrator is let them know too.
To get HERE, I have to go to the Interesting reading on Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension. click on it, then click on the last page [7] then hit the END key and then scroll up to the latest post.
It's been that way ever since it was decided (by unknown person) to delete Michael Sol's posts (and him). Could this be a new passive- aggressive technique for editorial control by an unknown group at Kalmbach?
charlie hebdo It's been that way ever since it was decided (by unknown person) to delete Michael Sol's posts (and him). Could this be a new passive- aggressive technique for editorial control by an unknown group at Kalmbach?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Electroliner 1935 Yes, when I click on the link for the lastest post, I receive the following: Sorry, there was a problem with your last request! Either the site is offline or an unhandled error occurred. We apologize and have logged the error. Please try your request again or if you know who your site administrator is let them know too. To get HERE, I have to go to the Interesting reading on Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension. click on it, then click on the last page [7] then hit the END key and then scroll up to the latest post.
The latest post link tries to put you on the non-existent page 8
'-------.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/288854.aspx?page=8#3386181'
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