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Conductor Confronts Railfan About Filming

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Posted by Convicted One on Monday, May 3, 2021 1:12 PM

Murphy Siding
Video dude comes off as wanting a confrontation, so he has something exciting to film. That’s apparent because that’s exactly what he did. He filmed something so he could bring attention to his YouTube videos.

Classic example of "Man with camera, seeks confrontation"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r55BFO9ZVaM

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Posted by rixflix on Monday, May 3, 2021 1:24 PM

Coupla years ago I rode the (B&O) dome excursion from DC to Roanoke. I started to photograph the crew tying the car to the rear of the Amtrak train. Our guide suggested I stop because many railroaders don't like that.

In Germany, if you want to come off as a typical American rube, try photographing an individual in a crowd without their permission. In other words keep your camera moving and avoid violating someone's privacy. Makes sense to me.

Rick

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, May 3, 2021 1:56 PM

When you are in public - expect to be photographed.  It is 21st Century USA.

Only expect privacy in private settings.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, May 3, 2021 2:23 PM

On a tourist railroad, it's part and parcel of the job.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, May 3, 2021 2:27 PM

Tourist railroads usually don't harass their employees and volunteers the way that Class I's do.

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, May 3, 2021 2:57 PM

Here seems to be another video apparently on the same day with the same friction between him and the train crew.  I would guess that this video came first because he was videoing a lot of that one trainman, tension seemed to be rising.  Then in the next video, the trainman stops, gets off, and confronts the guy making the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19gqCzdlVK4

There is radio discussion about whether this is the same guy as on another day. 

 

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Posted by Juniata Man on Monday, May 3, 2021 3:10 PM

Balt:

I disagree.

My expectation in public is that I am being recorded by security cameras if I'm on the street or in a place of business. I also accept that someone may be recording something on their cell phone as I happen to walk past. That's the extent of my expectation for loss of privacy.

If someone is pointing a camera directly at me and I ask them to please stop, my expectation is they will do the courteous thing and stop.

Simply being in public does not give someone the right to specifically record me then post it on YouTube, especially if they have been asked to stop. To continue recording after being asked to stop is, in my opinion, a provocation.

CW

 

BaltACD

When you are in public - expect to be photographed.  It is 21st Century USA.

Only expect privacy in private settings.

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, May 3, 2021 3:12 PM

Juniata Man
Balt:

I disagree.

My expectation in public is that I am being recorded by security cameras if I'm on the street or in a place of business. I also accept that someone may be recording something on their cell phone as I happen to walk past. That's the extent of my expectation for loss of privacy.

If someone is pointing a camera directly at me and I ask them to please stop, my expectation is they will do the courteous thing and stop.

Simply being in public does not give someone the right to specifically record me then post it on YouTube, especially if they have been asked to stop. To continue recording after being asked to stop is, in my opinion, a provocation.

CW 

BaltACD

When you are in public - expect to be photographed.  It is 21st Century USA.

Only expect privacy in private settings.

You are stuck in the last century.

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Posted by Juniata Man on Monday, May 3, 2021 4:15 PM

Perhaps.

 

BaltACD

 

 
Juniata Man
Balt:

I disagree.

My expectation in public is that I am being recorded by security cameras if I'm on the street or in a place of business. I also accept that someone may be recording something on their cell phone as I happen to walk past. That's the extent of my expectation for loss of privacy.

If someone is pointing a camera directly at me and I ask them to please stop, my expectation is they will do the courteous thing and stop.

Simply being in public does not give someone the right to specifically record me then post it on YouTube, especially if they have been asked to stop. To continue recording after being asked to stop is, in my opinion, a provocation.

CW 

BaltACD

When you are in public - expect to be photographed.  It is 21st Century USA.

Only expect privacy in private settings.

 

You are stuck in the last century.

 

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, May 3, 2021 5:44 PM

Euclid

Here seems to be another video apparently on the same day with the same friction between him and the train crew.  I would guess that this video came first because he was videoing a lot of that one trainman, tension seemed to be rising.  Then in the next video, the trainman stops, gets off, and confronts the guy making the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19gqCzdlVK4

There is radio discussion about whether this is the same guy as on another day. 

 

 

 

He seems ok in this video.. But the crew were talking about him, and he might have stopped recording at that point. Maybe a bit of confrontation is what he was looking for to spice up his videos. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 10:04 AM

Definitely a possibility in order to increase the number of views.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by chatanuga on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 6:08 PM

diningcar

 Why in the hell would he be railfanning a switching move on an insignificant track that is so unimportent that there is no crossing signalling?

 

What does that have to do with anything?  Are we only supposed to railfan heavily-used mainlines or something?

I know the guy (Jawtooth) in the YouTube video through not only his YouTube channel but through his railfanning posts on Facebook.  Brian's passionate about trains, posting a lot of pics and videos of the Cincinnati Eastern Terminal on the former NS Peavine Route, which runs near his home.  He also posts pics and videos of lots of other locations and subjects as well.

In the video in question, Brian apparently recognizes the NS employee, who I'll refer to as Mr. Railroader, as a Norfolk Southern employee who'd called him a "loser" as he went past at some point in the past.  However, that doesn't spark the issue in the video, but I'll address it later.  Mr. Railroader stops his train to protect an unprotected crossing.  Brian is well enough away from the track that he's clearly not trespassing.  Mr. Railroader, rather than protecting the crossing for the train, leaves the job he's getting paid for to confront Brian and calls him over, going up to him, and, even though Brian has his cell phone out already, basically puts himself on camera, saying he doesn't want to be on camera.

Does Mr. Railroader do this with every railfan or everybody who has their cell phone out?  What if he approached somebody who took offense at being confronted like that and decided to turn the whole thing into a physical confrontation?  How would he explain to NS that while he was supposed to be doing his job, he left the railroad's property, confronted a railfan, and got slugged, all because he didn't want his picture taken?

Later in the street-running segment, Mr. Railroader again leaves railroad property to go down the street to get the license plate number off what he believes to be Brian's vehicle.  Instead, he gets the plate of a vehicle belonging to somebody not even involved in the whole situation.  If the plate was actually turned into law enforcement who then contact the owner of the vehicle, Mr. Railroader has now dragged an innocent party into the whole situation, falsely reporting them as trespassing on railroad property, all because he didn't want to be in a picture on somebody's cell phone.

Some folks have said that Brian was too close in the last clip of the video, but it's possible he could have had the camera on his phone zoomed in or been holding the camera out farther than he was standing (you can't see down to see where he's actually standing).

The way I see it, if Mr. Railroader had just done his job and ignored Brian, there would be no issue since Brian wasn't on railroad property, crossing in front of the approaching train, or threatening the employee/displaying a weapon.  Since Brian seemed to recognize the guy at the beginning of the video, it sounds like Mr. Railfan has a problem with railfans and needs to keep it his problem or find another job where he's not in public view.

Kevin

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Posted by Backshop on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 6:41 PM

Just a few comments...

I've seen a few of Jaw Tooth's videos and generally find them boring.

How he got that many subscribers, I'll never know.

He does a bit of preaching sometimes about his religion so this doesn't exactly match up with that.

I'm not real big on getting my picture taken, so I can understand the railroader's point of view.

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Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 7:02 PM

Maybe the whole thing was staged.. Brian gets more subscribers and the angry railroader shares in the profits. It's getting harder to become a millionaire with cat videos.. this is different..Brian is probably enjoying this..

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 7:04 PM

chatanuga
The way I see it, if Mr. Railroader had just done his job and ignored Brian, there would be no issue since Brian wasn't on railroad property, crossing in front of the approaching train, or threatening the employee/displaying a weapon.  Since Brian seemed to recognize the guy at the beginning of the video, it sounds like Mr. Railfan has a problem with railfans and needs to keep it his problem or find another job where he's not in public view.

Since we are only seeing one side (and one video) who knows what the truth is.

Somehow I doubt it is 100% as it is presented.  

 The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 8:11 PM

zugmann

 

Since we are only seeing one side (and one video) who knows what the truth is.

Somehow I doubt it is 100% as it is presented.  

 

You have caused me to lose faith in the internet, the last bastion of honesty and integrity. Sigh

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 8:48 PM

If the two aren't in collusion,  then my opinion is that the railroad employee is entitled to privacy.  The YouTube guy is out of line.  He should have asked permission before focusing on a person. 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 9:31 PM

charlie hebdo

If the two aren't in collusion,  then my opinion is that the railroad employee is entitled to privacy.  The YouTube guy is out of line.  He should have asked permission before focusing on a person. 

 

I agree. And he should have stopped when asked politely.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, May 4, 2021 11:30 PM

Murphy Siding
he should have stopped when asked politely.

I suspect that we may never know the full story behind all this.  Just as was the case with Eduardo Moreno, the authorities clearly believe we couldn't handle the truth.  Coffee

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 8:10 AM
 

Ulrich

Maybe the whole thing was staged.. Brian gets more subscribers and the angry railroader shares in the profits. It's getting harder to become a millionaire with cat videos.. this is different..Brian is probably enjoying this..

 

I doubt any of this was staged, and at 126K subs he's only bringing in about 6-8K per year in income.. If his videos are monetized that is.. Now if he had 1.26 Million subs then he could live more than comfortably.. I also agree with the conductor not wanting to be filmed. Railfans don't understand alot of aspects of the industry when it comes to personnal and what their personal or work situation maybe...

However I wouldn't have confronted the guy though. Some things are beyond our control regardless of what we do. Being filmed can be one of those things. 

Sinced I missed this incident.. To the writer at this magazine who wrote a letter to CN some years back, because you couldn't get "the shot".. I hope you feel good about yourself... Over the years I've chatted with a number of T&E people and the conversations have always been pleasant. It always takes a few rotten apples to ruin the bunch..

 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by Backshop on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:10 AM

SD70Dude

 

 
n012944

This guy is on the same level that called in a CN crew for having the front door open. 

 

 

That guy writes for the magazine:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/observation-tower/archive/2015/01/28/railroaders-railfans-and-the-letter.aspx

 

WOW!  I must've missed that the first time around.  What an overentitled manchild he is!  He makes a big deal about having the holiday weekend off without thinking that the railroaders didn't and had to work. Yes, I know that's part of railroading, but it doesn't make it any easier when you have to miss family events.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 10:04 AM

Murphy Siding

 

 
charlie hebdo

If the two aren't in collusion,  then my opinion is that the railroad employee is entitled to privacy.  The YouTube guy is out of line.  He should have asked permission before focusing on a person. 

 

 

 

I agree. And he should have stopped when asked politely.

 

 

I wonder how many of here would have appreciated a stranger videoing us at work or play without permission?  Or videoing members of your families?   Frankly,  it's rude and potentially creepy. 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 10:44 AM

charlie hebdo
 
Murphy Siding

 

 
charlie hebdo

If the two aren't in collusion,  then my opinion is that the railroad employee is entitled to privacy.  The YouTube guy is out of line.  He should have asked permission before focusing on a person. 

 

 

 

I agree. And he should have stopped when asked politely.

 

 

 

 

I wonder how many of here would have appreciated a stranger videoing us at work or play without permission?  Or videoing members of your families?   Frankly,  it's rude and potentially creepy. 

 

I was thinking along the same lines. Suppose you're having a picnic in a city park with your family, and someone is filming you? When you ask him politely to stop, he says he's on public property and not trespassing, so he's not going to stop. I bet the cops would get called- hopefully before someone got hurt.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:14 AM

What we saw on the video was only a slight disagreement in which both sides gently confronted each other and then immediately backed down.  There is nothing to indicate who was right or wrong.  After the conductor’s request was made clear, Jawtooth stopped filming him and said to the camera, something to the effect that he wanted to keep filming the switching routine, but would try to avoid including the conductor.   

So where is the grievance that seems to be the subject of this thread?  The question I have is what happens when you and your family are having a picnic and some stranger shows up and starts waving at you and your family? 

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:24 AM

Euclid
So where is the grievance that seems to be the subject of this thread?  The question I have is what happens when you and your family are having a picnic and some stranger shows up and starts waving at you and your family? 

 

When the title of the video is the very click-batey and cringey: 

"Cops Called For Filming Train In Public! Approached By Conductor & Told Not To Film, 1st Amendment"

 

That's what causes the conversation. 

I get it - many youtubers make overly dramatic titles to get views *cough* Scotty Kilmer *cough*. 

WE can look at it 3 ways:

1. legal vs illegal

2. right vs. wrong

3. youtube community guidelines allowed or not?

 The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:38 AM

How many views has the video gotten from this thread?  Ka-Ching!

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 11:57 AM

There is nothing inherently unethical about photographing a person in public where the conventions, customs, culture, or laws do not proscribe such action.  The reason it is not unethical is because it is not wrong. 

You could make the argument that decency, courtesy, good manners, good breeding, good upbringing...they all require a person to be sensitive to the wishes of others, but there is no natural, legal, or ethical requirement for a person to accede to that person's wishes.  

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 12:24 PM

A conductor working on his train and on his  railroad is not in public. Rather he is on private property.  Legally someone else does not have the right to video without permission and if then using it commercially he must obtain a release.  Maybe it is different in Canada as much is. 

The key legal element is the expectation of privacy.  If on private property,  that expectation exists. 

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 12:28 PM

charlie hebdo
A conductor working on his train and on his  railroad is not in public. Rather he is on private property.  Legally someone else does not have the right to video without permission

That's really untrue.  The litmus is "reasonable expectation of privacy",  If you are in open view, you have none. 

Standing in your front yard with no pants on might be a good example. See how many people respect your privacy.

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, May 5, 2021 12:34 PM

selector
You could make the argument that decency, courtesy, good manners, good breeding, good upbringing...they all require a person to be sensitive to the wishes of others, but there is no natural, legal, or ethical requirement for a person to accede to that person's wishes.  

The tact and grace with which the aggrieved responds is a factor as well. Based upon the responses of some they appear  on the verge of going Neanderthal on the guy.

Of course, tact and grace probably wouldn't do much good in this specific instance, because the Tuber appears to want to provoke a reaction.

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