Well, I wasn't going to get this granular, but there's making money off of it, and there's ... making money off of it.
Take Trains magazine. The majority of train pix are part of the editorial content, and the rules for editorial use are much more permissive than advertising/trade. If a journalist for Time shoots a scene of, say, a building collapse, for news purposes, and there are onlookers visible in the pic, those people have no right to privacy. But if the same photo is used to advertise a type of re-bar that would ostensibly have kept the building standing, then all those people can sue and probably win. (If it's worth it to them.)
Jaw Tooth could probably make a decent case that his videos are editorial content.
Back to Trains. Say they use a shot of a BNSF engine in an ad to advertise their annual locomotice special edition. Technically that's a whole 'nuther ball game, and BNSF could compel them to not do it again, or even sue and get money. But I would imagine that Kalmbach has secured agreements with the railroads allowing such use, because it is free publicity; and because does a railroad really want to piss off Trains? Symbiotic relationship.
For a bar to use Warner Brothers imagery wthout permission is amazingly stupid. Warner Brothers is in the sole business of intellectual/artistic property! Easy case. But say we have a bar near the tracks, called The Depot Tavern. And they have photos of trains on the walls. We've all been to such places. Mostly that comes under the heading of Warren Buffett has weightier things to worry about.
Still in training.
I seem to recall how the Union Pacific was going to take on model manufacturers like Athearn for using their logos on locomotives and freight cars. I wonder how that worked out? For that matter, would anyone own the logos and imagery for defunct railroads?
A small brewery at a beer festival in Toronto had Warner characters on their cans and bottles. I asked them if Warner's ever got in touch. They said no, but the following year, those Warner characters were gone from their products.
Satire is also permitted. If you were doing a TV show, and intent upon making fun of the back woodsey nature of some little town, you could make jokes about parallels with Mayberry, and joke about "where's Goober and Gomer?".
But, if you tried to use either as a product endorsement, your telephone would be a'ringin.
54light15 For that matter, would anyone own the logos and imagery for defunct railroads?
For that matter, would anyone own the logos and imagery for defunct railroads?
Any merged fallen flags logo and imagery would belong to the present day RR. Bankrupt railroads? Not sure.. Look at the shortline Rock Island in Mississippi which uses the CRIP's final paint scheme.
I read about that MS guy acquiring the RI identity, but I can't remember if he paid a substantial fee for it, and to whom. But there was a process involved; and I'm pretty sure he now has exclusive rights to the name, at least as far as naming a railroad Rock Island.
For this particular case, it is worth noting that Rock Island did not cease to exist as a company after its final bankruptcy.
The liquidation sales actually raised more than enough to pay off all the creditors, and a sizeable pile of money was left over once the proceedings were concluded.
The company renamed itself the Chicago Pacific Corporation and invested the remaining money in several non railroad industries. It was acquired by Maytag in 1988, so I suppose the appliance maker ended up with the rights to the old CRI&P name and intellectual property.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude For this particular case, it is worth noting that Rock Island did not cease to exist as a company after its final bankruptcy. The liquidation sales actually raised more than enough to pay off all the creditors, and a sizeable pile of money was left over once the proceedings were concluded. The company renamed itself the Chicago Pacific Corporation and invested the remaining money in several non railroad industries. It was acquired by Maytag in 1988, so I suppose the appliance maker ended up with the rights to the old CRI&P name and intellectual property.
Iowa Interstate has the rights to the Rock Island buffalo hide emblem. I believe Miner Enterprises ended up with the remaining railroad portions of the RI. Miner is the one CSX pays rent to for the line they operate west of Joliet.
I don't know if it was Maytag or Whirlpool, after they acquired Maytag, who made the transfer.
Jeff
Ulrich Railroader was polite about conveying that he didn't want to be filmed. The fan should have respected that and moved on.. I reviewed the viedo a second time and had my wife watch it to receive her thoughts. As a Methodist Pastor, she deals w/human behavior. The trainman was in compliance in asking video guy not to film him. This was done in a straight forward, stern, but not negative manner. The response was to almost create a confration. That would been an argument he would not have won against the employee. As a post said earlier, none of us would want to be filmed at our jobs by someone who has no business doing so. I can think of much better things to do w/my time compared to filming other people. It is creepy and abnormal. Trains move all around everyday all the time. It is a normal scene in just about every rr track town. The guy was getting his rocks off by seeing a train going down the track. As my wife noted to me, he is craving for attention, seems to be low self-esteem, low-confidence. Perhaps something in his past is troubling him. Notice he was alone doing this. If he has friends, they likely are not interested in activities such as filming other people. I hope he can get things all worked out and find peace within himself.
Railroader was polite about conveying that he didn't want to be filmed. The fan should have respected that and moved on..
SFbrkmn The guy was getting his rocks off by seeing a train going down the track. As my wife noted to me, he is craving for attention, seems to be low self-esteem, low-confidence. Perhaps something in his past is troubling him. Notice he was alone doing this. If he has friends, they likely are not interested in activities such as filming other people. I hope he can get things all worked out and find peace within himself.
If one wants to descend into the psych of the situation, I think you'd also have to acknowledge the conductor's insecurity over being filmed working in a public setting? Many people are observed while working everyday, without feeling the need to foster confrontation.
As Liberace used to say "I cry all the way to the bank"....
SFbrkmnTrains move all around everyday all the time. It is a normal scene in just about every rr track town. The guy was getting his rocks off by seeing a train going down the track. As my wife noted to me, he is craving for attention, seems to be low self-esteem, low-confidence. Perhaps something in his past is troubling him. Notice he was alone doing this.
So all of us who like to go out by ourselves and watch trains (to "get our rocks off") have serious mental and emotional issues? (If you photograph the trains, does that indicate control issues, greed, a need to steal, hoarding?)
Oh please.
I have some issues (like everyone). But none of them have anyting to do with being interested in railroads.
Convicted OneIf one wants to descend into the psych of the situation, I think you'd also have to acknowledge the conductor's insecurity over being filmed working in a public setting? Many people are observed while working everyday, without feeling the need to foster confrontation.
Given the all-too-frequently heard stories of "weed weasels" out to fire anyone and everyone for infractions real and imagined, I think I can understand that insecurity.
While the railroads seem to be the largest source of such accounts, a few years back a municipal building inspector got gigged by the state labor safety folks when a picture appeared of him in a place without the required safety appurtanences in place - I think it was on a rooftop.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68Given the all-too-frequently heard stories of "weed weasels" out to fire anyone and everyone for infractions real and imagined, I think I can understand that insecurity.
You are absolutely right, and that very notion has been on my mind since first reading this thread. But the TuberLoon did not invent weed weasels. So you cannot blame him for the practice of the railroads.
Where I previously worked, we had this large 4 faced carillon clock that had been removed from some old courhouse in Iowa. And it was re-erected into this skeleton frame, located in a main court of one of our shopping malls. The high visibility of the antiquated works was the attraction, Total height in situ, about 40 feet. And it mysteriously became my responsibility to attend to.
Seasonal time changes were my thing, and while I soon discovered that "falling back" was a mere task of stopping the giant pendulum for 60 minutes, easily accomplished with an 8 foot stepladder. The "springing forward" was considerably more involved, requiring more intimate involvement, and having to climb high into the works, into precarious environs, requiring a safety lanyard, etc.
And, oddly enough, I acquired a fandom, same people every year. I guess they were easily amused, or perhaps Sunday mornings were just their "thing"?
But, attaching and unattaching the safety lanyard repeatedly as I climbed up into the works, was actually more work than the actual task at hand, yet I had to remain ever vigilant that an OSHA inspector might just happen to be a face in the crowd....so "out of an abundance of caution" etc (parallel to weed weasels)
And there were some cat calls involved, people who found it humorous to shout out "Coo-Coo!" Stuff like that.
It was an annual ritual. which I took in stride.
Until I had the brainstorm that stopping the pendulum the night before (11 hours prior) was just as good as having to crank the mechanism forward manually one hour.
We learn to adapt, evolve, and do whatever is necessary
Convicted OneBut the TuberLoon did not invent weed weasels.
No question. But I have heard that management has been known to watch such resources...
tree68But I have heard that management has been known to watch such resources...
So, let's blame the private citizen?
"If you're not doing anything wrong..." etc.
Convicted OneBut, attaching and unattaching the safety lanyard repeatedly as I climbed up into the works, was actually more work than the actual task at hand, yet I had to remain ever vigilant that an OSHA inspector might just happen to be a face in the crowd....so "out of an abundance of caution" etc (parallel to weed weasels)
And they don't even have to be a face in the crowd - they can be at home in their Pj's sipping on a hot chocolate and watching "OMG - WATCH THIS DUDE STOP A PENDULUM - OSHA VIOLATION!!!!"
A video of a guy that does truck stuff got him in trouble with the state - because he was driving through creeks and stuff.
Living in a society where everything is recorded and saved and critiqued. Wonder what kind of psychology case studies this will lead to in a genearation or 2?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Convicted One"If you're not doing anything wrong..." etc.
I mean, has to be somewhere that statement works?
You're probably right though. The Conductor probably thought he could go out and stomp his foot real loud, and make the problem go scurrying away. Ending the threat that any future rules infractions he might commit would thereafter go undetected.
I understand the reasoning. But I'm shocked he thought it could be that easy. Never underestimate the resolve of the infirm.
zugmann"OMG - WATCH THIS DUDE STOP A PENDULUM - OSHA VIOLATION!!!!"
No one was more surprised than me to discover I had become a "hickory dickery" celebrity.
If this had happened in the days of Youtube, there is no telling how far I might have milked it.
Convicted OneIf this had happened in the days of Youtube, there is no telling how far I might have milked it.
Now you're in the forgotten minor leagues of being forum famous. Not as impressive today.
zugmannLiving in a society where everything is recorded and saved and critiqued. Wonder what kind of psychology case studies this will lead to in a genearation or 2?
I personally thought the "toilet paper out the window" sounded like an elegant solution.
Moral of the story -
DO YOUR JOB to the best of your abilities and understanding of the rules that apply. If you knowingly violate rules expect to be found out - one way or another.
A crew on my territory got busted for 'speeding' and the officer that brought the charges was home in bed when they violated the rules. Download from the engines of their train indicated that they were operating at a speed higher than authorized in Yard Limits - while not exceeding Track Speed allowed in the Timetable.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDMoral of the story -
Maybe we should have cameras in the managers' offices, too?
SFbrkmnThe guy was getting his rocks off by seeing a train going down the track. As my wife noted to me, he is craving for attention, seems to be low self-esteem, low-confidence. Perhaps something in his past is troubling him. Notice he was alone doing this. If he has friends, they likely are not interested in activities such as filming other people.
I don't see him lacking confidence or self-esteem. Quite the contrary.
Also, I think your characterization overall is oddly reaching for something that is not there. All he did was comment to the conductor that he was within his rights. That seems pretty tame to me.
I think there needs to be a differentiation between filming someone and following someone. For example, you can film a train passing and you can see the engineer momentarily in the window. Or you can film a conductor/switchman throw a switch or two. Those are fine. However, I'd be uncomfortable myself if someone followed me for a good percentage of my day's work.
zugmann BaltACD Moral of the story - Maybe we should have cameras in the managers' offices, too?
BaltACD Moral of the story -
We all know in the Kangaroo Court System of railroad 'Investigations' - you are guilty until PROVEN innocent. Even when proven innocent you are penalized as you have to be HOS rested before you can attend and under the best of circumstance will lose pay for the day you attend the investigation.
BaltACD zugmann BaltACD Moral of the story - Maybe we should have cameras in the managers' offices, too? We all know in the Kangaroo Court System of railroad 'Investigations' - you are guilty until PROVEN innocent. Even when proven innocent you are penalized as you have to be HOS rested before you can attend and under the best of circumstance will lose pay for the day you attend the investigation.
We get paid any lost wages as a result of attending an investigation. Not sure how long it's been like that.
CN noticed that arbitrators often commute minor suspensions to demerits, which then forces them to pay back the lost wages. So they've gone back to simply issuing demerits for all but the most serious offences.
I believe that there is a tendency to exaggerate the significance of self, too.
Ultimately I realized that the clock was the actual "celebrity", while I was just it's roadie. Might the conductor have benefited from a similar return to earth, prior to the confrontation?
Past couple days I have gone through all my scanned 1200 35mm train slides I took from 1989-1998. Only three photos came up w/an employee on the ground. I was always of a nature not to photograph unless that person was ok w/it or of I knew the person. I simply was not interested in filming people. In my "Ex-Santa Fe" book,that I had published in 2018, covering the branchline sales in the early 90's out here, I do have a photo in the book of a CKR train that stopped to line a switch. The condr was climbing on or off the eng to do the move. I knew him personally and gave him a copy of the photo, which he was cool with it. If I did not know him, I likely would not have taken the photo.
Trains, Classic Trains, other magazines and books have many of pictures showing railroaders at work. Some are part of articles and are pictures taken for the article. Many, however are just everyday pictures. I would imagine that most (of those that are relatively close as opposed to those in the background) weren't asked about permission beforehand.
There's more to railroading than the equipment. There's a human element and sometimes that requires a human be in the picture. There's a photo spread of the Denver and Colorado Springs sections of Rock Island's Rocky Mountain Rocket being switched together at Limon Colorado back in the 50s. It appeared in Trains, in Bruce Chubb's "How to Operate your Model Railroad" book, and I believe in other Kalmbach publications from time to time. It shows, trainmen making switching moves, car men waiting and making connections etc.
That being said, I also think if the conductor didn't want to be videoed, his wishes should've been complied with. I think his reasons are less to do with not having his vest buttoned, etc. I didn't watch the entire thing, but wondered if these have had a run in before.
Speaking of minor violations. That's not what management, or more likely an agency hired by them, are looking for on social media. I won't say some manager won't say something about something simple, but they are looking more for major violations. Like laying off sick and then uploading pictures to Facebook of the ball game you attended. Things of that nature. (Managers will even say that a lot of things that appear on social media that get some one in trouble come to their attention because other employees specifically bring it to their attention.)
In this day and age, almost any railroader should approach their job with the assumption that they are being observed by management the entire time they are on duty. Inward facing cameras, cameras in yard offices, in common areas of the lodging facilities, in the vans used to transport crews, etc. are a regular fact of life. They even use drones to observe crews at work in yards. What appears on youtube is the least of someone's worries.
Within the last couple of years, there was a Railway Age cover with two executives on or infront of a locomotive. I think it was NS, but can't say for sure now. What I can say is on the cover of that months issue, why I remember it, was a Federal defect for all to see. It was easily correctable, but hadn't been. It was the safety chain on the hand rail drooping way to low. I've seen similar simple, but defects nonetheless, in pictures.
Doesn't that also risk getting the person responsible for the equipment at the time it's taken in trouble?
Railfanning is a hobby and I respect that. Every railfan I have encountered has been polite, enthusiastic, and respectful. When conditions would permit I would offer them a ride on the head end. One such railfan expressed his gratitude by sending me photos of engines I have operated and places I have been.
F:\New Haven locomotives
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