I recall seeing comments in the forums aluding to the 1970s as a time when smaller shippers pulled up their rail sidings in large numbers. That appears to align with my observations as I recall seeing many abandoned sidings in the late 1970s - early 1980s. Mostly they were lumberyards, light industrial shops and freight forwarding warehouses where I live in central Texas.
My questions are, first, is it accurate to say more industrial sidings were abandoned during the 1970s than any other time? Second, what economic, business, regulatory, technological changes took place that drove that trend?
The common response is usually trucks, however, trucks had been around for 50 years at that point, so why then? Also with the fuel crisis I would think rail would be more desirable. Anyway, looking forward to any insights railroaders or shippers have as to this. Thanks.
In 1976 the MCA passed the prevented the ICC from regulating the rates and routes of the Interstate OTR carriers of this nation. That meant any carrier could compete for freight with any other company as long as they had the equipment to do so. It also caused a lot of the larger Teamster carriers to go belly up as their freight base was taken by non union carriers that could haul it cheaper and the Teamsters refusing to allow for more flexible work rules. Just look at the LTL carrier market of today. Roadway and ABF are both Union and Roadway is struggling to compete against XPO FedEx Ground and other Non Union carriers.
Shadow; the MCA was enacted in 1980 - more or less concurrent with the partial deregulation of rail by the Staggers Act.
I'd say the recession in the 1982 time frame that absolutely hammered the steel industry in the US and the resulting closure of many integrated mills was probably the largest single loss of business and industrial sidings in a relatively short period of time.
Curt
MJ4562 is it accurate to say more industrial sidings were abandoned during the 1970s than any other time?
"Rail Served" was still a valuable marketing angle for industrial buildings, at least until the start of the 1990s. As more business shifted to truck, many businesses that only ocassionally used rail were daunted as the railroads started sending demand letters for "switch maintenance" fees often in the five figure range. IF the end user wished to stay online, they were expected to pay.
For those who chose to not pay, it was usually about a year later that the switch disappeared. At least that was my experience with SP.
Those who did not pay, lost their connection. I think it was at that point that many businesses started ripping up their already disconnected sidings, trying to find an alternate productive use for the land.
MJ4562I recall seeing comments in the forums aluding to the 1970s as a time when smaller shippers pulled up their rail sidings in large numbers. That appears to align with my observations as I recall seeing many abandoned sidings in the late 1970s - early 1980s. Mostly they were lumberyards, light industrial shops and freight forwarding warehouses where I live in central Texas. My questions are, first, is it accurate to say more industrial sidings were abandoned during the 1970s than any other time? Second, what economic, business, regulatory, technological changes took place that drove that trend? The common response is usually trucks, however, trucks had been around for 50 years at that point, so why then? Also with the fuel crisis I would think rail would be more desirable. Anyway, looking forward to any insights railroaders or shippers have as to this. Thanks.
My observations were that the Class 1 carriers started discouraging their 'small' customers begining in the mid-80's after the enactment of Staggers and putting 'bean counters' on the case to do cost/benefit analysis of virtually all customers - those that did meet the carriers cut off were pressured in a variety of ways to find other means for their transportation needs.
Through 1970's and into the 1980's the Halethorpe section of Baltimore B&O/CSX had a industrial area that aggregated about 100 cars a day - inbound and outbound to service one large customer and about 15 smaller customers. Sometime during the 1980's or early 90's the large customer entered bankruptsy and went out of business, a brewery changed hands several times and then was closed. The remaining car or 4 a day customers were discouraged from having rail carload service (some may have used intermodal). When my employment returned me to that area in 2008, instead of the area being serviced by round the clock switching crews on a M-F basis that were headquartered on site, the area was served by a engine with 2 or 3 cars coming from Curtis Bay yard 'on demand' no more frequently than 2 or 3 times a week - some times several weeks between service being 'demanded'.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The MCA may have been offically passed in 1980 but Ford and Carter both told the ICC hands off the OTR industry in the 70's. Why due to the collaspe of the RR's in the NE with all the bankrupcies the OTR side of the logistics train was about the only thing still getting stuff moved. In 77 Carter forbade the ICC from stopping new carriers from getting authority to serve any customers yes they still had to follow the rate protocols until 78 in place any carrier could service any customer they wanted. Then 1980 hit and it was game on. My late FIL was a driver in this timeframe saw the writing on the wall and left his Union job for a non union carrier. His earnings doubled why his boss was one of the smart ones got into a place undercut the Union place and got a long term contract and grew his carrier. You know all those Blue silos that are used to store feed on farms. My late FIL hauled those all over the USA. American Havester was the name on them and he delivered right to the farm for them. Then would bring back parts for the next batch.
BaltACD My observations were that the Class 1 carriers started discouraging their 'small' customers begining in the mid-80's after the enactment of Staggers and putting 'bean counters' on the case to do cost/benefit analysis of virtually all customers - those that did meet the carriers cut off were pressured in a variety of ways to find other means for their transportation needs. Through 1970's and into the 1980's the Halethorpe section of Baltimore B&O/CSX had a industrial area that aggregated about 100 cars a day - inbound and outbound to service one large customer and about 15 smaller customers. Sometime during the 1980's or early 90's the large customer entered bankruptsy and went out of business, a brewery changed hands several times and then was closed. The remaining car or 4 a day customers were discouraged from having rail carload service (some may have used intermodal). When my employment returned me to that area in 2008, instead of the area being serviced by round the clock switching crews on a M-F basis that were headquartered on site, the area was served by a engine with 2 or 3 cars coming from Curtis Bay yard 'on demand' no more frequently than 2 or 3 times a week - some times several weeks between service being 'demanded'.
While the class ones have done a stellar job of driving off business they don't want, one other truth gets overlooked. A lot of that industry isn't there anymore. Often facilities have been removed has industry have closed higher cost facilities and production moved to cheaper areas. Others because of outright consolidation within an industry. One company buys another and consolidates production in cheaper locations. First other states, and then out of the country.
Looking at a UP zone-track-spot map for Omaha shows a spider web of industrial trackage (Some of which I question if it even exists) with many spurs marked "vacant" as to the industry located there. Looking at old photos (See the one recently in the Classic Trains forum http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/283728.aspx) compared to what's there now and it's amazing what's gone.
Jeff
jeffhergert BaltACD My observations were that the Class 1 carriers started discouraging their 'small' customers begining in the mid-80's after the enactment of Staggers and putting 'bean counters' on the case to do cost/benefit analysis of virtually all customers - those that did meet the carriers cut off were pressured in a variety of ways to find other means for their transportation needs. Through 1970's and into the 1980's the Halethorpe section of Baltimore B&O/CSX had a industrial area that aggregated about 100 cars a day - inbound and outbound to service one large customer and about 15 smaller customers. Sometime during the 1980's or early 90's the large customer entered bankruptsy and went out of business, a brewery changed hands several times and then was closed. The remaining car or 4 a day customers were discouraged from having rail carload service (some may have used intermodal). When my employment returned me to that area in 2008, instead of the area being serviced by round the clock switching crews on a M-F basis that were headquartered on site, the area was served by a engine with 2 or 3 cars coming from Curtis Bay yard 'on demand' no more frequently than 2 or 3 times a week - some times several weeks between service being 'demanded'. While the class ones have done a stellar job of driving off business they don't want, one other truth gets overlooked. A lot of that industry isn't there anymore. Often facilities have been removed has industry have closed higher cost facilities and production moved to cheaper areas. Others because of outright consolidation within an industry. One company buys another and consolidates production in cheaper locations. First other states, and then out of the country. Looking at a UP zone-track-spot map for Omaha shows a spider web of industrial trackage (Some of which I question if it even exists) with many spurs marked "vacant" as to the industry located there. Looking at old photos (See the one recently in the Classic Trains forum http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/283728.aspx) compared to what's there now and it's amazing what's gone. Jeff
My observations were that the Class 1 carriers started discouraging their 'small' customers begining in the mid-80's after the enactment of Staggers and putting 'bean counters' on the case to do cost/benefit analysis of virtually all customers - those that did meet the carriers cut off were pressured in a variety of ways to find other means for their transportation needs. Through 1970's and into the 1980's the Halethorpe section of Baltimore B&O/CSX had a industrial area that aggregated about 100 cars a day - inbound and outbound to service one large customer and about 15 smaller customers. Sometime during the 1980's or early 90's the large customer entered bankruptsy and went out of business, a brewery changed hands several times and then was closed. The remaining car or 4 a day customers were discouraged from having rail carload service (some may have used intermodal). When my employment returned me to that area in 2008, instead of the area being serviced by round the clock switching crews on a M-F basis that were headquartered on site, the area was served by a engine with 2 or 3 cars coming from Curtis Bay yard 'on demand' no more frequently than 2 or 3 times a week - some times several weeks between service being 'demanded'.
As I mentioned, the largest customer in that area went bankrupt on its own business model - that was a food distribution warehouse that handled about 50 cars a day. The 2nd biggest customer was a brewery that was good for about 10 cars a day - through various change of hands that brewery capacity was moved to Allentown, PA and the brewery property was sold to a construction supply company that does business with only trucks. The 12 or so other industries on the lead between those two industries slowly went their own way - be that to trucks or to out of business. How much railroad policy had in those industries decisions of how they transported their ware or how they departed the business - I have no idea.
Shadow the Cats ownerThe MCA may have been offically passed in 1980 but Ford and Carter both told the ICC hands off the OTR industry in the 70's.
Price of entry to becomming an Owner Operator for OTR with all brand new equipment is less than buying a small home. Approx 30-35k for a new trailer and $150-160k for a new Peterbuilt with basic cab/sleeper arrangement. I think I read somewhere most Owner Operator OTR's that have experience can earn easily $225k a year doing long haul work.
Not any real surprise to me that OTR truckers can out complete the railroads with those numbers. Just about anyone can enter that line of business.
In regards to business railroad line depletion. Milwaukee Roads Beer Line in Milwaukee at it's peak was generating close to 300 cars a day of freight and I think that benchmark was hit during or shortly after WWII. So from that to zero, in 50 years.
But I also watched it with my own eyes starting as a kid. Milwaukee Road had most of the Menominee River Valley East of County Stadium for it's shops, freight yards, foundries, etc. They made everything there from railroad wheel sets, to trucks, to boxcars, to passenger cars, to steam locomotives. When I was a little kid I remember driving past on the freeway on the bluff overlooking the impressive operation. You could see railroad ties stacked high, new wheelsets in gondolas waiting to ship out across the system, remnants of 2 full round houses with turntables and 1 partial and a rectangular enginehouse as well. At times they had at least 75-125 locomotives in Milwaukee sitting on various tracks. I think it was a conglomeration of no less than 5 yards just in the valley. Then out of there you had more smaller yards just 3-4 miles away up the North Milwaukee Route, down the Chicago to Milwaukee route, along the beer line, etc. Still humming but at a reduced level when I was a little kid in the 1970's.
Almost all of that is gone now. Some of the buildings here and there are still standing but repurposed but most are completely gone and torn down with the real estate sold and developed by someone else.
The same thing has happened in the Clearing Industrial District between 65th Street and Clearing Yard. Some industrial leads are still active but if you look around you can see remnants of what used to be there. Many of the buildings are vacant and up for lease or sale and some have been torn down. Many of the newer businesses are smaller and not rail users.
MJ4562My questions are, first, is it accurate to say more industrial sidings were abandoned during the 1970s than any other time? Second, what economic, business, regulatory, technological changes took place that drove that trend?
As a clarification of what I posted earlier, there was a significant exodus to the Sunbelt in the late 60s and 1970s that left a great many vacant, rail-served industrial buildings in the north. Cheaper labor, more moderate winters, and the proliferation of air conditioning being factors that facilitated this. Many businesses pursuing this exodus didn't bother to incorporate rail into their new facility if they had been trending away from rail anyway.
Then the transition I mentioned earlier, followed in the 1980s...
Some observations from. I see new industrial parks--rail to truck distribution centers and food processing industries--being built after 1973. Rail sidings, or switches at least, pulled up by the early 2000s. Most of those rail sidings were clustered together near rail yards or anchor businesses similar to shopping malls.
Would trucking deregulation have encouraged the building of those types of transloading facilities? What I am referring to is large freight warehouses with rail siding on one side and truck loading docks on the other.
The freight that used to go to those warehouses in boxcars now moves in intermodal containers.
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SD70Dude The freight that used to go to those warehouses in boxcars now moves in intermodal containers.
Yeah, probably not.
MJ4562Would trucking deregulation have encouraged the building of those types of transloading facilities? What I am referring to is large freight warehouses with rail siding on one side and truck loading docks on the other.
I could be wrong, but I believe the main driving force behind buildings being configured that way, was generally so that the box cars did not block access to the truck docks? For the most part, bay spacing is considerably longer for boxcars than for trucks, and boxcars tend to sit where placed until the railroad comes back for them. Not really very efficient if you have trucks waiting for the box cars to be moved before they can get dock access. So if you are going to have a building served by both, you give one side of the building to the trains, and the other side to trucks. Deregulation really doesn't factor into it in any major way.
jeffhergertYeah, probably not. Jeff
I get the impression you are dismissive of this Jeff. Why?
Consider a scenario where:1975 - Textile mill located in piedmont North Carolina produces several car-lots of heavy woolen sweaters for the fall seaon (and a carton stuffed with sweaters can be pretty heavy), loads them in 50ft DF outside-post boxcars and ships them to catalog store distribution centers in the northern US.1995 - Textile production contracted out to Honduras or the Philippines, so cartons of sweaters are packed in containers for shipping to the contential US, the containers are then loaded into well-cars and forwarded to the IM yard nearest to the store distribution center, put on a chassis and trucked to the center.
Jaw Tooth "But Wait, there's more!"2015 - Textile production contracted out to Vietnam (China's off-shore labor colony), cartons of sweaters packed into containers shipped overseas to the US, containers trucked from the docks to nearby (in relativel terms - say 50-100 miles, rather short distance for rail) distribution centers...and then DROPPED SHIPPED from the center via USPS, UPS, etc to buyers across the nation. The former distribution centers are now fitness centers and U-Store-Its...
Agree with Jeff - the lading (loads) tend to differ quite a bit. (and the "just-in-time" beancounter delivery mantra [blown-up and destroyed by CoVid-19] did away with the midstream warehousing of materials 25-50 years ago in most industries.)
Truck/ Rail separation tends to be a good thing. Dock heights have different height requirements* between railcars and trucks, plus paving-in track structure is a stupid idea that generally comes back to bite the building owner. (compounded by the stupid things that engineers and architects do to buildings on the rail side creating clearance fails that render the track illegal/unusable. ...and then there are the not too bright plant engineers and their legendary fails )
(*) Railroad = level 42" above top of rail vs. Truck= 48"to 55" above the ground....dock plates can only do so much.
jeffhergert SD70Dude The freight that used to go to those warehouses in boxcars now moves in intermodal containers. Yeah, probably not. Jeff
In my city the warehouse district gradually moved out of downtown to the outskirts of the city over the last 50 years. Those new distribution centres have only truck access, and many are clustered around CN's intermodal terminal.
We still ship a surprising amount of consumer goods, just not in boxcars.
Your results may vary in other locations.
Georgia Pacific in Green Bay is planning a 1.1 million sq.ft. paper products warehouse to consolidate 5 area warehouses. No rail connection for it. The huge warehouse P&G built there for its paper products some years ago likewise has no rail. To think of all the boxcar paper loads that used to stream out of GB, amazing that it's gone. And no IM "ramp" in northeast Wisconsin, just seems crazy.
mudchicken ... (and the "just-in-time" beancounter delivery mantra [blown-up and destroyed by CoVid-19] did away with the midstream warehousing of materials 25-50 years ago in most industries.)...
... (and the "just-in-time" beancounter delivery mantra [blown-up and destroyed by CoVid-19] did away with the midstream warehousing of materials 25-50 years ago in most industries.)...
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Back until about 1975 it was unusual to see a manufacturing facility or warehouse without direct rail access in my hometown of Sherbrooke, QC (a typical small town). In fact the only one that springs to mind is Canox.. they had a warehouse in the countryside with only road access.
A number of factors had conspired to kill off the spurs and branchlines that served shippers and receivers directly.. chief among them were 1) deregulation of the transportation industry..2) tougher environmental regulations 3) globalization which saw much of our traditional heavy industry move offshore where labor is cheaper and environmental regulations are for all intents and purposes nonexistent.
Some spurs have somehow managed to survive all that in addition to PSR. One such spur is CN's Fergus Spur which connects Guelph to nearby Hespeler.. There are only a handful of shippers and receivers on this little line.. and trains are generally 5 to 10 cars in length. But somehow it remains profitable or it has thus far escaped the attention of the OR bean counters.
It also doesn't help that the Railroads especially the class 1's treat customer service like it is a black hole something never to be done. We have 10 empties that have needed to be picked up here at our SIT yard on the NS side of the operation. I have been trying to get a hold of someone at NS for the last 2 weeks to get them taken away. My emails phone calls have gone unanswered. Heck even my boss can not get anyone on the freaking phone. Yet at anytime anyone of our customers can call us during regular hours and within 2 mins tops have someone on the phone and have that person working on solving their needs and problem they are having. I hope this explains why industries also left the Railroads they flat out do not care about their small customers anymore. Unless your name is UPS JB or a major shipper and even then you might get ignored at times.
I do not believe BNSF customers are treated like this. Nor regional and short-line customers. All letter written by you and signed by your boss to NS's CEO seems overdue.
The local railfans joked that BNSF ran the local from Galesburg to Streator just for us. They literally would run a train 2-3 times a week of 2 engines and 5 cars each way to service our SIT track. We are the only local customer left in Streator. Then to throw the local railfans a bone so to speak they kept running a Warbonnet painted B-40-8W on the point each way for the longest time or a Santa Fe painted GP50. Now we get serviced by the 104 105 trains as needed that run from the Joilet Arsenal to Galesburg. As for your other suggestion. My boss has sent 2 letters out to both the CEO of NS and the other to the STB and our lawyers have sent a total of 5 one to their Legal Department threatening to sue for breach of contract 1 to their Marketing Department. 1 to their Operations Department another to Billing department charging them for car storage on our tracks and the last one to the STB also saying that we can not getting needed supplies for the pandemic due to the NS refusing to service a customer. They provide some of the medical grade resins we need and as of 2 weeks ago we have had to start trucking them in so we can blend them for our customers which means we can not haul enough to supply a PPE manufactor in this pandemic. I wonder how the STB let alone the government is going to react to that one. PSR is going to start causing a bottleneck in PPE equipment when this crap is cranking up again because the large quanities of a needed resin can not get delivered.
MJ4562 I recall seeing comments in the forums aluding to the 1970s as a time when smaller shippers pulled up their rail sidings in large numbers. That appears to align with my observations as I recall seeing many abandoned sidings in the late 1970s - early 1980s. <SNIP> The common response is usually trucks, however, trucks had been around for 50 years at that point, so why then? Also with the fuel crisis I would think rail would be more desirable. Anyway, looking forward to any insights railroaders or shippers have as to this. Thanks.
I recall seeing comments in the forums aluding to the 1970s as a time when smaller shippers pulled up their rail sidings in large numbers. That appears to align with my observations as I recall seeing many abandoned sidings in the late 1970s - early 1980s. <SNIP>
Would it be fair to say that the biggest obstacle to rail service for anything other than low value bulk commodities is timeliness of service rather than cost? Seems like rail service is fairly cheap once the the track is in place. Unless switch maintenance is that expensive?
As far as the issue of Class 1 companies not wanting to deal with small volume shippers, would it be realistic for a short line to serve those customers utilizing trackage rights on the class 1 line? Or would that interfere too much with operations?
MJ4562As far as the issue of Class 1 companies not wanting to deal with small volume shippers, would it be realistic for a short line to serve those customers utilizing trackage rights on the class 1 line? Or would that interfere too much with operations?
The Mohawk, Adirondack and Northern (MWHA) is based in Utica, NY and handles all the work in Rome, about 15 miles distant, via the Chicago Line (NYC Water Level Route) on trackage rights.
There's enough business in Rome that they generally make the trip daily, except weekends.
Of course, it's a GVT line, so trainwatchers get to see ALCOs at speed along the line...
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This thread is why I have been arguing how short-sighted and stupid PSR is. You will lose customers through no fault of your own. You need to keep and grow the customers you have.
MJ4562 Would it be fair to say that the biggest obstacle to rail service for anything other than low value bulk commodities is timeliness of service rather than cost? Seems like rail service is fairly cheap once the the track is in place. Unless switch maintenance is that expensive? As far as the issue of Class 1 companies not wanting to deal with small volume shippers, would it be realistic for a short line to serve those customers utilizing trackage rights on the class 1 line? Or would that interfere too much with operations?
(then again, we all have seen small business abandon leased building space because the landlord was too cheap to fix the driveways and common areas after the pavement resembles the surface of the moon and the surrounding area is an industrial wasteland.)
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