Is there a place for genuine discussion of class disparity, especially from the BLM viewpoint? I sure think so. I look at how many ways the "deck is stacked" against folks who have to work multiple jobs, have little or no health care, and have to say yes to working in environments that may be hazardous to their health in a pandemic.
You know, like teachers! (And harvesters, meat processors, cleaning crews, and some of the folks who work for the nation's railroads, airlines, and common carriers.)
Convicted One Not to mention all the people who will gladly loot a Best Buy, and then excuse doing so as "social justice"
Not to mention all the people who will gladly loot a Best Buy, and then excuse doing so as "social justice"
Oh, we were doing so well, and then you toss this fiction into the pile. The protesters were not the looters. Many of the looters were propagandists—possibly from the far right—they came in and used tactics to provoke what you just wrote—the false conclusion that the protesters and the looters were one mass of people. The "looters" were making a false propaganda story more believable. And yep, you bit.
jcburnsI think that's a very long way of saying cut them some slack, give them a chance to change the world for the better, and cheer them on when they do. And when they screw up, give them space to try again without charging them with treason.
My principal objection to the current antifa is that it's too functionally similar to counterpart groups on the 'actually' fascist right in their willingness to use violence outside a context of even pseudo-process-of-justice ways... or as a Maoist tactic similar to that employed by Sendero Luminoso, one of the organizations I most despise.
And then again, the world is always full of grifters and conmen who latch onto good causes and appropriate them for camouflage while they exploit for personal gain.
I appreciate your response, Overmod, and I hear where you're coming from, but I think in some ways we (you, me, older people, people of a background more removed from these folks) aren't equipped to really differentiate between the organizations and the greater causes. Anyone can put a video up claiming to be part of something called 'antifa', providing very basic visual "proof" that they're part of it, and then commit acts that many of not all of the anti fascism protestors would call "wrong" or "going too far."
There are (I believe) propagandists out there who are counting on you to draw those very conclusions. I think the Black Lives Matter org is filled with good people who want to change a very basic problem with American society. Because they're young, because they grew up with music, cultural references, and experiences PERHAPS far different than ours, they pick some ways to express that that sound dangerous to (again being diplomatic here) ears attached to heads filled with different life experiences.
I think that's a very long way of saying cut them some slack, give them a chance to change the world for the better, and cheer them on when they do. And when they screw up, give them space to try again without charging them with treason.
jcburnsPut another way, stop trying to make "antifa" a thing...it's a crappy shortcut way of saying "those who oppose and push back against fascists and authoritarianism." Count me in.
It is certainly true that various groups and movements have latched into it as a convenient bugbear to get excitement and money out of the susceptible, as they have done with Soros all these years, and with inchoate threats of 'communism' in my childhood. That carries little weight with me.
There is a related issue between 'black lives matter', which I think is something that should be supported until the underlying issues are rectified, and the official 'Black Lives Matter' organization.
Erik_Mag BaltACD The efforts against Fascist rule in the 1930's didn't become organized until September 1, 1939 - had anti-fascist efforts been more successful, maybe September 1, 1939 would not have happened. Beg to differ, the original antifa organization got started in the early 1930's and were considered by people in the center to be as bad if not worse than the NSDAP brown shirts. Keep in mind that this is when the Holomodor was going on in the Ukraine and a bit over a decade after Poland repelled an attempted invasion by the Soviets.
BaltACD The efforts against Fascist rule in the 1930's didn't become organized until September 1, 1939 - had anti-fascist efforts been more successful, maybe September 1, 1939 would not have happened.
The efforts against Fascist rule in the 1930's didn't become organized until September 1, 1939 - had anti-fascist efforts been more successful, maybe September 1, 1939 would not have happened.
Beg to differ, the original antifa organization got started in the early 1930's and were considered by people in the center to be as bad if not worse than the NSDAP brown shirts. Keep in mind that this is when the Holomodor was going on in the Ukraine and a bit over a decade after Poland repelled an attempted invasion by the Soviets.
Beg to differ on the timeline. The antifascist street fighters of the SPD (Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold) and those affiliated with the KPD (Rot Front) were well-organized and violently engaged the SA (brown shirts) of the NSDAP and the rightist Stahlhelm in the 1920s as well as with each other.
The current Antifa are a very loose, diverse *group* in US, some leftist, some anarchist. They are slightly more organized in parts of Europe.
jcburns Erik_Mag Beg to differ, the original antifa organization got started in the early 1930's and were considered by people in the center to be as bad if not worse than the NSDAP brown shirts. Keep in mind that this is when the Holomodor was going on in the Ukraine and a bit over a decade after Poland repelled an attempted invasion by the Soviets. Any attempt to say that the anti fascism protestors of the second decade of the 21st century are in any way a perpetuation of "the original antifa organization" is absurd...in no small part because most younger people, including those out protesting, don't have that kind of time depth.
Erik_Mag Beg to differ, the original antifa organization got started in the early 1930's and were considered by people in the center to be as bad if not worse than the NSDAP brown shirts. Keep in mind that this is when the Holomodor was going on in the Ukraine and a bit over a decade after Poland repelled an attempted invasion by the Soviets.
Any attempt to say that the anti fascism protestors of the second decade of the 21st century are in any way a perpetuation of "the original antifa organization" is absurd...in no small part because most younger people, including those out protesting, don't have that kind of time depth.
However, those undertaking Fascist actions in the 21st Century have many of the same aims as those taking those actions in the 20th Century.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod, I see no evidence that people protesting fascism are redefining it or taking on attitudes (?!) of the people they oppose.
I really think you get yourself into trouble by reading reporting on 'antifa' as a movement that is written by people who have a political or financial interest in creating fear. They assign "tactics" to a loose bunch of people who are really doing nothing else but standing up pushing back against, frankly, evil behavior on our city streets.
I think the people fighting fascists and white supremacists in the United States have the same heart as those who fought fascism in World War II. I applaud them. I applaud people who are standing up to our own government's authoritarian tactics, orchestrated by guys (it turns out) who haven't taken their "acting" jobs in a valid way.
Put another way, stop trying to make "antifa" a thing...it's a crappy shortcut way of saying "those who oppose and push back against fascists and authoritarianism." Count me in.
https://www.netflix.com/title/80989924
BaltACDFascists are Fascists - no matter if they are from the 1930'-40's or in the 21st Century.
The issue I have with antifa is that they start by redefining 'fascism' to be something only they say it is, and then start using some of the worst historically-Fascist attitudes and tactics themselves. That mocks those who actually had to fight and die to stop the real thing.
In my opinion perhaps one of the worst versions of 'fascism' in the 1930s was spared us only by strategically placed assassination in 1935.
Erik_Mag BaltACD Remember, in fighting and winning WW II, the Greatest Generation was antifa. Anti-Fascist. I really have a problem with the so-called antifa being compared to the veterans of WW2. The US forces were much more disciplined about who they were fighting and what they were fighting for.
BaltACD Remember, in fighting and winning WW II, the Greatest Generation was antifa. Anti-Fascist.
Remember, in fighting and winning WW II, the Greatest Generation was antifa.
Anti-Fascist.
I really have a problem with the so-called antifa being compared to the veterans of WW2. The US forces were much more disciplined about who they were fighting and what they were fighting for.
Fascists are Fascists - no matter if they are from the 1930'-40's or in the 21st Century.
From Mike:
A google 'drive' up and down Lodi shows that new sidewalks have been added with ADA mats on the ramps.
EuclidHere is a solution that would work for the flangeways:
The principal difficulty is that these chairs have to negotiate doorways and tight interior arrangements, and the tires to be effective and yet give reasonably long battery life will have to be relatively wide, and be 'outboard' enough not to produce dangerous tipping with weight shift or surface tilt. It might be possible to provide a low-pressure running surface as a cylinder stored flat, even disk-like within the hub of a running wheel, but expanding outward with gas pressure; this might be arranged to lift one side to help clear something like high centering.
Providing the wider tread for the 'casters' is, I think, more vital in the short run than making a power chair 'off-road compatible'. One potential solution here is that used on some zero-turn Walker mowers, which steer using the same principles as these scooters; they do offer a single wide low'pressure tire for the rear caster, but also multiple wheels in the same wider frame for applications where 'scuffing' is important to minimize. On a scooter having several wheels of 'existing' width, each with independent ball or roller bearings on a common shaft, would not greatly increase either running or turning resistance but would prevent the settling or wedging of a single wheel into a flangeway -- which is the principal thing to be solved to prevent the Lodi accident from recurring elsewhere.
I don't say this to cut off discussion of better imperfect-surface operation of 'self-drive' mobility solutions, which I think should be encouraged. Although I am, now that you mention it, enraged that anyone should encounter the need for that capability going down an improved sidewalk in a state like California...
charlie hebdoAlthough removing your political remark seems like Stalinist airbrushing of Zinoviev & Co. out of official photos, I guess it's at least an acknowledgement.
charlie hebdoSo why not crossings? Shouldn't the railroads share costs with governments at a minimum?
Perhaps the most direct example in recent history involves the cost of monitored crossing systems -- usually involving cameras like those for red-light enforcement, on a tape loop like incident recorders, that can be linked to appropriate local or state agencies for enforcement. It is clearly in a railroad's 'enlightened self-interest' to facilitate enforcement leading either to deterrence of 'crossing violations' or the interdiction of the worst offenders (or "recidivists") but it is also, clearly, neither good economics nor good politics to have railroad police perform more than an assistive role, if any, in actual enforcement. This alone indicates a role for the railroad in setting up and coordinating communications for these systems.
This is separate from a different issue, which is an extension of the common provision of regular crossing protection. It is my understanding that in most cases the 'road' agency pays the capital cost of the devices, but the railroad maintains them. Where enhancements to crossings facilitate 'better' railroad operation, a railroad might agree to a larger expense than for simple crossing protection.
A sort of counter-example is in the area of 'quiet zones' where municipalities offer some form of statutory immunity to railroads in return for a Federally-sanctioned exemption from horn regulations. Up to now the 'enhanced' protection required to establish this (e.g. full gates with barriers and signage) has been the responsibility of the ones wanting the quiet zones; there may be a case that the added immunity is valuable 'enough' to railroads to contribute in converting additional crossings to quiet status.
There are issues of 'current privilege' involved here that may make it 'unlikely' at best that railroads will pay for something they don't think they have to, or have been exempted from by law. Some form of effective community organizing might in time influence this, as might changes in the makeup or administration of governments or agencies with oversight of railroad policy...
Overmod charlie hebdo I will point out one simple phrase I stated which you ignored ["especially east of the Mississippi"] so that you could distract. I actually gave that red herring more attention than it factually merited -- what possible importance could it have for a discussion of affairs in California? Issues of crossing law and responsibility are well-documented by experts; I would seek there if you have concerns on who is responsible for different aspects of the crossing in Lodi, rather than blithering generalities about unrelated areas.
charlie hebdo I will point out one simple phrase I stated which you ignored ["especially east of the Mississippi"] so that you could distract.
I actually gave that red herring more attention than it factually merited -- what possible importance could it have for a discussion of affairs in California? Issues of crossing law and responsibility are well-documented by experts; I would seek there if you have concerns on who is responsible for different aspects of the crossing in Lodi, rather than blithering generalities about unrelated areas.
[/quote]
How or why is revisiting the funding for bringing railroad crossings into the modern era not relevant to a discussion of safer rail crossings, whether Lodi, St. Louis or Long Island? Without funding and mandates, nothing gets done. And Wall Street in the broad sense clearly impacts most/all railroad decisions.
Although removing your political remark seems like Stalinist airbrushing of Zinoviev & Co. out of official photos, I guess it's at least an acknowledgement.
[/quote]And YOU were the person who dragged in a totally irrelevant political epithet about leftists and California, not that there's anything wrong with them, except in your world in Memphis. [/quote]Removed already, except to acknowledge it was there before removal. The comment about finding the railroad negligent because it is mercenary, however, continues to be something I will dispute as having relevance here.
The idea that chronological precedence determines who should pay for safety and health improvements is not necessarily so. Even within rail world, safety appliances have been the financial responsibility of the railroads, not governments, even though the requirements to adopt them came after the equipment and ROW were already in use: coupler improvements, airbrake improvements, track standards, PTC. So why not crossings? Shouldn't the railroads share costs with governments at a minimum?
Or this ...
https://www.tracfab.com/
In looking at the street view, I don't think the crossing should be open to personal mobility vehicles. The clearance past the gate hinge base is insufficient on both sides. This may require leaving the sidewalk on either side. One side requires entering the roadway and the other side requires dropping off the sidewalk and into loose gravel. Both sides require fouling the path of the crossing gate operation with the gate dropping on the road side and the counterweights rising on the non-road side.
I don’t necessarily see this incident as the fault of U.P. or the person in the wheelchair. The fault is with the crossing design, and I suspect that City may be ultimately responsible for approving that.
But, in any case, it was a mighty close call, and it would not surprise me if both U.P. and the City are named as the defendants in legal action for the stress and injury.
Here is a solution that would work for the flangeways:
https://extrememotus.com/all-terrain-wheelchair-research-center/beach-wheelchair-2?gclid=CjwKCAjw1ej5BRBhEiwAfHyh1D3apizb9XSgmA3YCurCx0_wt4LkbUZncwhcQGjS8SQa1i9mClLlpBoCAJEQAvD_BwE
Overmod charlie hebdo As usual, selective readings, misreading, arcane terms, red herrings and logorrhea by Mr. Polymath. What was it Socrates said, about how those who lose the argument resort to insults? And no, no misreadings, and the only red herrings were yours. The logorrhea I acknowledge, though.
charlie hebdo As usual, selective readings, misreading, arcane terms, red herrings and logorrhea by Mr. Polymath.
What was it Socrates said, about how those who lose the argument resort to insults?
And no, no misreadings, and the only red herrings were yours. The logorrhea I acknowledge, though.
And once again, you resort to denial of your selective readings. I will point out one simple phrase I stated which you ignored ["especially east of the Mississippi"] so that you could distract. And YOU were the person who dragged in a totally irrelevant political epithet about leftists and California , not that there's us anything wrong with them, except in your world in Memphis.
Lithonia OperatorA poor guy gets stuck on the tracks, and goes through a terrifying experience. A magnificent heroic police officer risks her life and saves the man's life. Clearly, we need to discuss antifa.
A magnificent heroic police officer risks her life and saves the man's life.
Clearly, we need to discuss antifa.
Lodi does not get much better at the intersection.
charlie hebdoAs usual, selective readings, misreading, arcane terms, red herrings and logorrhea by Mr. Polymath.
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