Man, that's a good cop!
The man in the wheelchair? Attempted suicide? Chair wheel caught in the gap? Mentally out of it? Who knows? A paucity of information there.
Have you ever looked at the operation of the leading wheels of most wheel chairs ? Just turn the direction of a wheel chair less than 5 degrees and the wheel(s) swivel. Then one or both leading wheels may drop into the gauge side gap possibly up to 3 or 4 inches. I personally know someone who that happened to fortunately no train coming. Rescued by a man close by.
Speculation --- The man may have been crossing and hears the train. He then looks that way causing the wheel chair to turn and leading wheel(s) dropping into guage side.
We have a crossing that is regularly crossed by several persons daily to get to drug store, local 7-11, PO, bank, city hall, etc. It is protected by lights and gates.
Flintlock76The man in the wheelchair? Attempted suicide? Chair wheel caught in the gap? Mentally out of it? Who knows? A paucity of information there.
https://goo.gl/maps/7dEEfyp9ryPnt6oA8
There's the crossing on streetview. I can pretty much guess what happened - and see a major issue that was probably at play.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
What time of day was this? Sheesh, you can see trains coming a mile away in either direction.
I can see an easy fix, though, one that can be retrofitted easily to these crossings. Make up 'bars' of relatively distinctive color plastic that can serve as cross 'rails' on either side of the railhead and flange gap,. spaced to guide wheelchair wheels without letting them turn. Then clearly mark that any wheelchair or scooter users have to engage these rails when crossing safely.
Alas! the discussion has been had about crossings that 'anticipate' when a train is coming and activate an 'early warning' for slow-moving people using the crossing. If I remember correctly, railroads saw the necessary scheduling as a risk to proprietary operations information that could be easily extracted by casual observation.
Or you know, not have the crossing apparatus bolted in the middle of the sidewalk?
zugmannOr you know, not have the crossing apparatus bolted in the middle of the sidewalk
As I recall the Californians had a similar problem with those idiot 'no straight through' gates for bike paths, which you couldn't negotiate easily in a wheelchair. Ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray, as we used to say in the East.
For what it's worth, oh brother do I agree with you.
umm...ok..?
Haven't heard pig Latin in a long time. ixnay on the ottenray. Young Frankenstein
Glad this "evil" policeman wasn't defunded.
Gramp Glad this "evil" policeman wasn't defunded.
Was that political crap comment really neccesary here?
zugmann Flintlock76 The man in the wheelchair? Attempted suicide? Chair wheel caught in the gap? Mentally out of it? Who knows? A paucity of information there. https://goo.gl/maps/7dEEfyp9ryPnt6oA8 There's the crossing on streetview. I can pretty much guess what happened - and see a major issue that was probably at play.
Flintlock76 The man in the wheelchair? Attempted suicide? Chair wheel caught in the gap? Mentally out of it? Who knows? A paucity of information there.
Mod: anything placed above the top of rail is a bozo no-no. (FRA/CaPUC/AREMA)....the same goes for any striping in the foul zone
zugmannWas that political crap comment really necessary here?
Look there for your fix if you want to discuss defunding... many more potentially appreciative readers there.
mudchickenZugs: Who gets the "come to jesus" moment, the City Engineer or the CA PUC who approved the design? WCH has a secondary pedX-ng gate to cover sidewalks going behind the gate, but the road agency probably did not want to pay for it and CaPUC probably did not see the need for it.
Going up and down the street, at least they are consistent. Holy cow, I'm guessing they widened the street at one point?
mudchickenMod: anything placed above the top of rail is a bozo no-no. (FRA/CaPUC/AREMA)....the same goes for any striping in the foul zone
How about filling the gaps with something resilient that would support the weight of people but squish down under the rail traffic? I seem to remember seeing that somewhere, but I'm trying to remember where. Maybe it was streetcar tracks.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Sorr, I'm just so tired of it all.
mudchicken: anything placed above the top of rail is a bozo no-no.
It still wouldn't surprise me if the ADA people pushed something like that through. Practicality is often barely an afterthought.
From what I could make out from the video, this wasn't your garden variety wheelchair, with skinny wheels - it was a motorized version. Those usually have some pretty fat wheels on them. In fact you can catch a glimpse of the rear caster wheels in the video.
Said chair also appeared to be oriented along the tracks, instead of crossing them. If he was simply crossing the tracks, this might mean he panicked and tried to turn around.
Or he got confused with the controls, or maybe the battery chose that moment to die.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Paul of Covington How about filling the gaps with something resilient that would support the weight of people but squish down under the rail traffic?
Don't forget, while the leading edge of the wheel is pushing down, the trailing edge is pushing up.
Locally here there is a rubber-like gasket piece that they put in some crossings to flush up the gap.
They don't seem to hold up very well, and need changing more often than whoever is responsible seems to be willing to change them out.
Basically a "bolt-on" failure point, from my perspective.
Paul of Covington mudchicken Mod: anything placed above the top of rail is a bozo no-no. (FRA/CaPUC/AREMA)....the same goes for any striping in the foul zone How about filling the gaps with something resilient that would support the weight of people but squish down under the rail traffic? I seem to remember seeing that somewhere, but I'm trying to remember where. Maybe it was streetcar tracks.
mudchicken Mod: anything placed above the top of rail is a bozo no-no. (FRA/CaPUC/AREMA)....the same goes for any striping in the foul zone
It was hard to see in the body cam video, but was that a powered scooter or a traditional wheelchair?
Likely it was a problem with the wheelchair or it somehow got lodged in the track. Often the engineers don't think through every detail.. i.e. how difficult would it be to cross here in a wheelchair?
That looks like a Hoveround or equivalent 'mobility solution' which has two fairly broad pneumatic tired wheels on the sides and casters fore and aft: it is driven by independent electric motors on the two side wheels.
The only wheel I see aligned with a flangeway in the brief part of the video that shows the scooter is the right main wheel. It does not appear to be jammed in any way or even with its sidewalk depressed; a couple of the stories indicate that the officer first tried to save the machine but it could not be either moved or tilted.
It appears he was belted into the thing somehow and pulling him out threw his legs to the opposite side where one of them contacted part of the train-- it was that close.
rdamon It was hard to see in the body cam video, but was that a powered scooter or a traditional wheelchair?
My vote goes to the powered scooter. A headrest is definitely visible in the video - most "traditional" wheel chairs don't have that style of headrest.
Too, the officer would have likely been able to drag a regular wheelchair out of the way, unless it was really wedged into the flangeway. Those scooters are heavy.
Ulrich: Or were the gate foundations moved back because of the numerous strikes by over-wide trucks and inebriated motorists? (cross-bucks and signal masts are constantly under attack by the rubber-tired side who can't comprehend staying in their lane)
tree68 rdamon It was hard to see in the body cam video, but was that a powered scooter or a traditional wheelchair? My vote goes to the powered scooter. A headrest is definitely visible in the video - most "traditional" wheel chairs don't have that style of headrest. Too, the officer would have likely been able to drag a regular wheelchair out of the way, unless it was really wedged into the flangeway. Those scooters are heavy.
Batteries aren't light.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDBatteries aren't light.
'Xactly.
Figuring out model of device from that video reminds me if a guy in HS who used to claim he was extrapolating on his sliderule to many places beyond reality. .
charlie hebdoFiguring out model of device from that video reminds me of a guy in HS who used to claim he was extrapolating on his sliderule to many places beyond reality...
This uncomfortably reminds me of how many decimal places I used in my sophomore-year lab reports ... before we had the training on significant-figure analysis. (I figured 'let the reader do the rounding he wants'...)
There are quite a few frames in that bodycam video that clearly show the type of scooter, right down to the red plastic shell and the light-colored side tires, and the rear caster. It would have been helpful if the bodycam hadn't 'bobbed up' just at the wrong point as she's approaching. The upright backrest and general 'riding position' are obvious in later frames.
Perhaps I wouldn't be so confident if there weren't several people who drive these things up and down and up and down in front of and around my wife's residential compound, without any particular care for people trying to enter and leave in cars. Embeds the details in your mind after a while, it does...
OvermodPerhaps I wouldn't be so confident if there weren't several people who drive these things up and down and up and down in front of and around my wife's residential compound, without any particular care for people trying to enter and leave in cars. Embeds the details in your mind after a while, it does..
Which reminds me of a number of people I've seen in wheelchairs or powered scooters (or variations of the same) behaving very irresponsibly in parking lots, streets, crossings, or what have you.
While I try to be understanding and realize that given the choice they wouldn't be in a wheelchair I can't help but think if it was irresponsible behavior that put them in the wheelchair to begin with.
I know that doesn't sound very charitable but it does make me wonder, know what I mean?
I haven't seen any reporting on this, but I'm assuming the wheelchair/scooter was demolished, right? And did the train stop? From what I could tell, that train was going very fast, and did not seem to be braking. In an incident like this, wouldn't the train be required to stop if the wheelchair was hit?
Lithonia OperatorI haven't seen any reporting on this, but I'm assuming the wheelchair/scooter was demolished, right? And did the train stop? From what I could tell, that train was going very fast, and did not seem to be braking. In an incident like this, wouldn't the train be required to stop if the wheelchair was hit?
I feel certain the train did stop, but a big train at or near track speed takes time to stop be in Emergency or Service. If the train didn't stop that would have been the second lead of the story.
Flintlock76While I try to be understanding and realize that given the choice they wouldn't be in a wheelchair I can't help but think if it was irresponsible behavior that put them in the wheelchair to begin with.
I got a still from Mike of the man in the wheelchair stuck on the tracks which unfortunately I can't manage to link or insert.
However, the chair is parallel to the tracks, and one of the wheels is either stuck in the gap between the rail and the "ramp" and it appears to have a flat tire, or maybe the photo just gives that impression.
It looks like instead of proceeding directly across the tracks the man in the chair turned for some reason and got the chair stuck.
tree68 From what I could make out from the video, this wasn't your garden variety wheelchair, with skinny wheels - it was a motorized version. Those usually have some pretty fat wheels on them. In fact you can catch a glimpse of the rear caster wheels in the video.
Didn't watch the video and am not familiar with the motorized wheelchairs, so can't comment on them. My mother-in-law used two electric scooter chairs during her last few years. One of them was a big heavy thing with pneumatic tires about 3 inches wide and 8 or 10 inches in diameter, which would have no issues with a RR crossing approached at a 90 degree angle. However, her other scooter was much smaller and lighter, designed to be broken down and the parts stowed in a car trunk. It had narrow solid tires about 4 inches in diameter that would have had serious issues with a RR crossing even if approached at a 90 degree angle. One's equipment has to be at least a part of the solution to the problem of RR crossings.
The wheels need to be like wide cylinders with a very shallow radial thickness. That way, they could not drop into into the flangeways no matter how they were pivoted for steering.
BaltACDI feel certain the train did stop, but a big train at or near track speed takes time to stop be in Emergency or Service. If the train didn't stop that would have been the second lead of the story.
You can hear the brakes taking hold in teh video. Plus if you slow it down, you can see the pistons are all the way out on the cars.
EuclidThe wheels need to be like wide cylinders with a very shallow radial thickness. That way, they could not drop into into the flangeways no matter how they were pivoted for steering.
BaltACD Euclid The wheels need to be like wide cylinders with a very shallow radial thickness. That way, they could not drop into into the flangeways no matter how they were pivoted for steering.
Euclid The wheels need to be like wide cylinders with a very shallow radial thickness. That way, they could not drop into into the flangeways no matter how they were pivoted for steering.
Yes, something like that. Maybe split them so there are two narrow, rotating segments that run on the roadway at the widest gauge, and then reduce the diameter a bit for the rest of the cylinder, so it clears the roadway, but is there to prevent the whole assembly from dropping down into the flangeways. Then have the two rolling segments free of each other so they can turn independently and not scrub with so much friction on the roadway when they have to pivot as casters. That would be similar to a lot of chair casters that each have two independent wheels. They should be at least 6" dia. and could be sclupted out to reduce the massiveness.
There remains a need to balance such a need with the operational/design needs of the device. Most things that are designed to everything do nothing very well.
If, indeed, there was a wheel stuck in the flangeway, it would suggest that he started across, realized a train was coming, and tried to turn around. Given the time frame of the video, it's likely he'd have been better off just "goosing" it and getting across the tracks.
We've seen enough stories about motorists getting flustered at crossings to give this some credence.
And there's the possibility he was fouling the tracks on purpose, sorry to say.
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/13/44/17/19809262/3/920x920.jpg
From Mike. It was that close.
I know the discussion is mainly about the reasons the wheelchair was even in that situation.
The other part of the story remains that this policewoman did an amazing rescue of this man. She was very close to losing her life trying to save his.
York1 John
Flintlock76 https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/13/44/17/19809262/3/920x920.jpg From Mike. It was that close.
The guy's wristwatch corresponds to the time stamp on the photo
York1The other part of the story remains that this policewoman did an amazing rescue of this man. She was very close to losing her life trying to save his.
Amen, Brother. Amen. IMHO, I bet she wasn't even thinking about the risk; rather she was focused on saving the citizen in peril. Good on her!
tree68 Euclid The wheels need to be like wide cylinders with a very shallow radial thickness. That way, they could not drop into into the flangeways no matter how they were pivoted for steering. There remains a need to balance such a need with the operational/design needs of the device. Most things that are designed to everything do nothing very well. If, indeed, there was a wheel stuck in the flangeway, it would suggest that he started across, realized a train was coming, and tried to turn around. Given the time frame of the video, it's likely he'd have been better off just "goosing" it and getting across the tracks. We've seen enough stories about motorists getting flustered at crossings to give this some credence. And there's the possibility he was fouling the tracks on purpose, sorry to say.
You don't know he was suicidal.
zugmann Or you know, not have the crossing apparatus bolted in the middle of the sidewalk?
Really. The poor guy had to get around that by going into the roadway, which, he correctly ascertained, was not a great place to be. But then in turning to get out of the street, it made the front wheels be paralell to the rails, hence enabling one to get stuck in the flangeway.
He didn't say he was. Just was suggesting it as a possibility.
tree68 Euclid The wheels need to be like wide cylinders with a very shallow radial thickness. That way, they could not drop into into the flangeways no matter how they were pivoted for steering. There remains a need to balance such a need with the operational/design needs of the device. Most things that are designed to everything do nothing very well.
Yes, the solution has to be simple. Sometimes a solution can lead to another problem. Bicycles get stuck in grade crossing flangeways sometimes. But people using wheel chairs have special condtions that do not apply as much to bicyclists. Wheel chairs may be equipped with special wheels that can't get stuck in flangeways, but then those wheels may be deemed too bulky and disruptive even for slow moving wheel chairs. Nobody would want 6" wide wheels on their bicycle. So they may not want them on their wheel chair.
Sombody may have mentioned this earlier, but here is an approach to provide shallow flangeways. This seems like a credible approach to the mobility device hangup problem, but it also is promoted as self-cleaning flangeway that could benefit the rail traffic as well.
This link should be able open large views of patent illustrations of the cross section of these elestomeric fillers that can be simply pressed into place without taking apart the crossing. It seems like a well engineered product that would be a realistic approach to serving a real need. It is called a "Shallow Flangeway" and made by Polycorp.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120000987
Leo_Ames He didn't say he was. Just was suggesting it as a possibility.
Exactly.
Among the other things we don't know is how often this gentleman crosses these tracks with this vehicle. It could well be that he does so daily. Perhaps he was not used to seeing trains at that time.
Unless there is a follow-up story, we know about all we'll ever know about the incident.
EuclidNobody would want 6" wide wheels on their bicycle.
From MBTR.COM
tree68 Leo_Ames He didn't say he was. Just was suggesting it as a possibility. Exactly. Among the other things we don't know is how often this gentleman crosses these tracks with this vehicle. It could well be that he does so daily. Perhaps he was not used to seeing trains at that time. Unless there is a follow-up story, we know about all we'll ever know about the incident.
Since you don't really know details, why did you suggest suicidal intent rather than any of the other more likely reasons?
The cop had to pull the guy off of the chair because it was stuck in the flangeway. If he was attempting to kill himself, he would have had no reason to get himself stuck; he would have just rolled himself out there and stopped.
charlie hebdo tree68 Euclid The wheels need to be like wide cylinders with a very shallow radial thickness. That way, they could not drop into into the flangeways no matter how they were pivoted for steering. There remains a need to balance such a need with the operational/design needs of the device. Most things that are designed to everything do nothing very well. If, indeed, there was a wheel stuck in the flangeway, it would suggest that he started across, realized a train was coming, and tried to turn around. Given the time frame of the video, it's likely he'd have been better off just "goosing" it and getting across the tracks. We've seen enough stories about motorists getting flustered at crossings to give this some credence. And there's the possibility he was fouling the tracks on purpose, sorry to say. You don't know he was suicidal.
Railroads continue to be one of the means of choice for suicidal individuals - how they desire the railroad to kill them differs, there are a multitude of ways.
Lithonia Operator The cop had to pull the guy off of the chair because it was stuck in the flangeway. If he was attempting to kill himself, he would have had no reason to get himself stuck; he would have just rolled himself out there and stopped.
I agree. I think the stuck wheel chair rules out suicide
From Mike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6L9EDNJT1I
https://www.gofundme.com/f/jonathan-mata039s?utm_source=customer&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_campaign=p_cf%20share-flow-1&fbclid=IwAR3QLH3EsXmF4Ojq4uBzL3kdBZwSUnaSYUQtakfvfXgm1c_tSJpEhns6eQk
BaltACDRailroads continue to be one of the means of choice for suicidal individuals - how they desire the railroad to kill them differs, there are a multitude of ways.
We seem to have one every month or so on the Coaster/Amtrak route through the costal cities in San Diego County, in addition to the "impaired" pedestrians. It's just brutal on the train crews and first responders.
The still images do appear to show not one, but two, wheels stuck in the flangeway, which does tend to rule out suicide.
Without that information, suicide is a rule-out option. That he had his back to the oncoming train is a consideration in that, in my mind, in that he didn't want to see it coming, if suicide was, indeed, his intention.
But, yeah, it's off the table for this incident.
Still unanswered is why he was perpendicular to what one would think would have been his route of travel across the crossing.
According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning.
charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning.
But it does happen.
tree68 charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning. But it does happen.
Families strive to have suicides reported as accidental - with guns, poison and asphyxiation by hanging it is difficult to be able to argue it was accidental - being killed by a train is much easier to argue that it was 'accidental', when it really wasn't.
The deep flangeways at crossings are a problem that should have been fixed years ago. They have killed people and impose hazards including entrapment of small wheels, footware, and grabbing bicycle tires which can throw off the rider.
I suspect the problem will soon be eliminated by the SHALLOW FLANGEWAY product being installed in all grade crossings.
BaltACD tree68 charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning. But it does happen. Families strive to have suicides reported as accidental - with guns, poison and asphyxiation by hanging it is difficult to be able to argue it was accidental - being killed by a train is much easier to argue that it was 'accidental', when it really wasn't.
You and tree really love to rationalize when facts are against you and railroads. As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service.
charlie hebdo BaltACD tree68 charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning. But it does happen. Families strive to have suicides reported as accidental - with guns, poison and asphyxiation by hanging it is difficult to be able to argue it was accidental - being killed by a train is much easier to argue that it was 'accidental', when it really wasn't. You and tree really love to rationalize when facts are against you and railroads. As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service.
In cab videos disagree.
BaltACD charlie hebdo BaltACD tree68 charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning. But it does happen. Families strive to have suicides reported as accidental - with guns, poison and asphyxiation by hanging it is difficult to be able to argue it was accidental - being killed by a train is much easier to argue that it was 'accidental', when it really wasn't. You and tree really love to rationalize when facts are against you and railroads. As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service. In cab videos disagree.
There is also considerable stigma brought upon the victim of suicide and the people close to the person who commits or attempts suicide. There was a suicide by train near where I once lived, and all the local people knew about it from the witnesses and the responders. We were all told that the media routinely withholds reporting suicides because of the stigma. And that suicide was not reported, to the best of my knowledge.
In this case, the person in the wheelchair survived and does not deserve any suicide stigma resulting from only the speculation that a suicide attempt was merely a possibility.
https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/suicideandstigma/
I agree. And uninformed, irresponsible speculation on here is simply wrong. Our railroads seem to have a problem with safe crossings. Why? Built on the cheap originally and a refusal to keep up to date now.
tree68Still unanswered is why he was perpendicular to what one would think would have been his route of travel across the crossing.
Maybe heading out to the street to get around the crossing pole that was bolted to the middle of the sidewalk?
zugmann tree68 Still unanswered is why he was perpendicular to what one would think would have been his route of travel across the crossing. Maybe heading out to the street to get around the crossing pole that was bolted to the middle of the sidewalk?
tree68 Still unanswered is why he was perpendicular to what one would think would have been his route of travel across the crossing.
Why would a fully obstructed sidewalk make anyone in wheelchair take a detour around it? [/sarcasm]
Panic, confusion could be other reasons. Others have posted the most likely reasons: blocked by pole or attempting to turn around and go back.
In 2017, there were 2024 rail crossing accidents, with 271 deaths and 846 injuries. More should be done than blaming victims and exonerating the rails of any responsibility.
I wonder if this was called in or the police officer happened upon it. And if it was called in - did anyone call the # on the blue notification sign? How many people even are aware of the emergency notification signs?
And how long was the wheelchair stuck there, and how many simply drove by?
Lots of questions. Few answers.
charlie hebdo As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings...
He was a good distance from the offending pole - there was no reason for him to be aligned with the flangeways at that point.
Panic seems to make the most sense.
As I mentioned before - one might wonder how many times he's made the selfsame crossing in the past. What was different about this trip?
Does this crossing have a history of wheelchairs getting caught in the flangeways? Is it different from other crossings?
zugmann I wonder if this was called in or the police officer happened upon it. And if it was called in - did anyone call the # on the blue notification sign? How many people even are aware of the emergency notification signs? And how long was the wheelchair stuck there, and how many simply drove by? Lots of questions. Few answers.
This was addressed in a previous post with a link to an interview with the policewoman. She was just driving by, and turned around to go back to help.
This is the link it the previous post:
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
I would not attribute this incident to some sort of operator error on the part of the person in the wheelchair. The fact is that the deep flangeways are a death trap integral to the fundamental design. How many centuries does it take to realize this?
The person in the wheelchair has every right to turn in any direction for any reason when crossing. Is there a law that says otherwise? Is there a law that says bicyclists must cross perpendicular to the rails? Some crossing installations are not perpendicular to the rails. In that case, are bicyclists expected to follow the crossing route and then suddenly veer sideways to cross the rails as vehicular traffic follows the road alignment?
Picture from the Post shows the 'steering' caster at the rear thoroughly blocked in the flange gap, 'just the wrong width'. Had it been a larger diameter it might have been able to swivel out, but likely only if reversed toward the oncoming train while trying to turn side-to-side with the motors. The visible side tire is not "flat", it is deformed down by the applied weight of the rider into the groove.
I see the grandmother of ex post facto product-liability suits looming here. Even an emergency 'jacking caster' away from the centered one would likely have gotten the trailer freed up; a pair of auxiliary 'rings' either side of that caster wheel would preserve the low running resistance but kept it from falling into grooves like sewer grates... or streetcar tracks. Likewise wider tires built on the principle of 'hybrid' 2" bicycle tires, where there is a hard center raised profile with minimal tread for 'low resistance road running' but aggressive off-road tread just to either side, could be easily adopted, with offset wheels or spacers if necessary.
And all this readily known to the scooter manufacturers who peddled these things for unrestricted outdoor use. If lawnmower manufacturers are supposed to be deemed liable for people picking up their product by the deck edges for hedge trimming, because not in the manual, it will be interesting to see what is in the scooter instructions about navigating obstructions...
Euclid I would not attribute this incident to some sort of operator error on the part of the person in the wheelchair. The fact is that the deep flangeways are a death trap integral to the fundamental design. How many centuries does it take to realize this? The person in the wheelchair has every right to turn in any direction for any reason when crossing. Is there a law that says otherwise? Is there a law that says bicyclists must cross perpendicular to the rails? Some crossing installations are not perpendicular to the rails. In that case, are bicyclists expected to follow the crossing route and then suddenly veer sideways to cross the rails as vehicular traffic follows the road alignment?
If I ride across a rail crossing that is not 90 degrees to the road, I adjust my path so I cross the rails at 90 degrees. It's common sense, although I'm sure there are bicyclists who have had to learn that lesson via a trip over the handle bars.
The gentleman in the wheel chair certainly has every right to turn in any direction he wants. If he's on a sidewalk, he has every right to ride over the curb at a 45 degree angle, too, but that will surely dump him. Common sense (or experience) should tell him that it's a bad idea - he should wait until he finds a ramp or other smooth access. The municipality is under no obligation to ensure that all transitions between sidewalk and road are suitable for riding a Hoveround over them at a 45 degree angle. It's sufficient to do so at intersections, etc.
I don't see that the railroad has a responsibility to fix something that seems to work at thousands of crossings nationwide.
I see some very interesting things boiling up in the indefinite near future:
As I noted it is theoretically possible to modify the scooter detail design to make it safer to drive over flangeways. I would argue strongly that with all the current and planned resumption of tracks in common streets this be done quickly for all scooters, both in new production and to be retrofitted to older machines, and done at the manufacturer's sole expense as for other types of safety recall.
I don't see railroads being able to block access to unmodified Hoverounds under the current ADA as amended. Technical means of providing 'scooter safe' crossings have been demonstrated not to be 'failsafe' or 'foolproof' enough. The only thing I can think of in the short run is amending the ADA, perhaps in concert with FRA directive, to forbid unattended use of crossings by scooter users -- they would have to dial some service like 511 and arrange for someone, likely police or a paratransit driver, to meet them at a crossing and supervise as they cross. Not sure exactly how this would play out to the activist community that caused Amtrak to stick their foot so thoroughly in their mouth earlier this year.
Look to see little compressible strips put in crossing flangeways as a stopgap, with the usual California-Democrat $2000 fine and jail term for messing with them in any way the CaStaPo or its many informers detects (this is [sarc] not a political comment). Then the signage makes the scooter driver more aware of the necessary presence of strips as well as staying straight across without stopping or turning while on the specially-colored new 'advisory' aprons (can they have guidance stripes stampcreted into them legally?) OR ELSE [insert fines and charges for all involved in transgression]. If the strips are missing he calls special needs priority hotline number as above and has somebody come 'key him by' safely... and reinsert any missing or 'vandalized' strip.
tree68 Euclid I would not attribute this incident to some sort of operator error on the part of the person in the wheelchair. The fact is that the deep flangeways are a death trap integral to the fundamental design. How many centuries does it take to realize this? The person in the wheelchair has every right to turn in any direction for any reason when crossing. Is there a law that says otherwise? Is there a law that says bicyclists must cross perpendicular to the rails? Some crossing installations are not perpendicular to the rails. In that case, are bicyclists expected to follow the crossing route and then suddenly veer sideways to cross the rails as vehicular traffic follows the road alignment? If I ride across a rail crossing that is not 90 degrees to the road, I adjust my path so I cross the rails at 90 degrees. It's common sense, although I'm sure there are bicyclists who have had to learn that lesson via a trip over the handle bars. The gentleman in the wheel chair certainly has every right to turn in any direction he wants. If he's on a sidewalk, he has every right to ride over the curb at a 45 degree angle, too, but that will surely dump him. Common sense (or experience) should tell him that it's a bad idea - he should wait until he finds a ramp or other smooth access. The municipality is under no obligation to ensure that all transitions between sidewalk and road are suitable for riding a Hoveround over them at a 45 degree angle. It's sufficient to do so at intersections, etc. I don't see that the railroad has a responsibility to fix something that seems to work at thousands of crossings nationwide.
Well, common sense is fine, and using common sense would easly prevent a person from stepping into an open manhole if he realized it was there. Nevertheless, leaving a manhole open without any protection would be considered extreme negligence on the part of a worker who left such a hazard. This is because everyone knows that people can fall into an open hole because they don't expect it, are not watching for it, and don't see it.
Like an open manhole, people encounter these deep flangeways without any prior experience, and so they are most likely to have a problem on their first encounter. I don't think these types of hazards can be dismissed just because they rarely cause an accident.
An open publc walkway invites a person to use it. If there is a built in hazard, it had better be identified and protected against. It is not common sense to conclude that the hazard is not worth mitigating because most people recongnize the hazard and get through it okay. Common sense says people should not fall off roofs.
EuclidAn open publc walkway invites a person to use it. If there is a built in hazard, it had better be identified and protected against.
Most of the usual 'reasonable accommodations' that might be imposed under the ADA aren't particularly workable. You can't have a folding ramp that works with the gates, or rising ramps like for continuous frogs under the pedestrian crossings, or even having paratransit or cruisers equipped with porta-ramps to be spread a la Raleigh for known scooter transition hazards. The idea of providing scooter overcrossings or tunnels is perhaps silly... but expect it to become a significant and justifiable reason for expensive crossing-removal projects... and that still doesn't answer the ADA issue for crossings that 'can't' be eliminated or closed.
Those of us who remember the ongoing torture that 200-odd Admiral television sets caused for NTSC color television are more than usually worried how the activist arguments about ADA scooter access are going to be played.
I am thinking of starting a 'Carthago delenda est' sig campaign that scooters must change; scooters must pay. Or the law must be common-sense amended to remove the potential issue...
THERE WILL NEVER BE A RISK FREE WORLD!
charlie hebdoAs Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service.
Flangeways at crossings near me on the UP main are designed to prevent narrow tire/wheel droppage, it appears. I'm not sure what the product is, but it appears to be a continuous strip. I doubt if it is a health hazard and certainly would prevent bike wheels from dropping in the flangeways.
OvermodWatch now for the fun as some clever Antifa-inspired 'protestor' gets the bright idea to insert pieces of orange-painted steel bar into strategically-undisclosed crossings to put teeth in further 'protest' closings... no wait, everyone forget I said that.
Just why do you feel you have the need to post that crap? Honest question.
charlie hebdo I doubt if it is a health hazard and certainly would prevent bike wheels from dropping in the flangeways.
Watch for this simple point to be lied about and 'tried in the press and public opinion' in the upcoming weeks, together with 'his foot might have been spared if the train had been plugged quicker' and 'why didn't they steer to avoid him' arguments.
The arguments about strips of different kinds to fill street and crossing flangeways are very old -- some of them go back to street running in the days of the rubber car spring rage after the invention of vulcanization. Arguments for and against both the vertically-compressible and horizontally-displaceavle types are nearly that old... as are all the usual-suspects issues of weather, climate, maintenance including imposed risk, sabotage, etc. etc. etc. A couple have even been raised in previous posts in this thread, as has the phrase 'bozo no-no' which I have taken careful notice of.
At least some present designs of 'modular crossing' sold to railroads as safe in fact have an open gap between the center plate at the bottom of the flangeway, so dirt, ice, water etc. cannot build up to a derailment hazard. That is the engineering hazard that a railroad is tasked with mitigating.
Overmod charlie hebdo I doubt if it is a health hazard and certainly would prevent bike wheels from dropping in the flangeways. The arguments about strips of different kinds to fill street and crossing flangeways are very old -- some of them go back to street running in the days of the rubber car spring rage after the invention of vulcanization. Arguments for and against both the vertically-compressible and horizontally-displaceavle types are nearly that old... as are all the usual-suspects issues of weather, climate, maintenance including imposed risk, sabotage, etc. etc. etc. A couple have even been raised in previous posts in this thread, as has the phrase 'bozo no-no' which I have taken careful notice of. At least some present designs of 'modular crossing' sold to railroads as safe in fact have an open gap between the center plate at the bottom of the flangeway, so dirt, ice, water etc. cannot build up to a derailment hazard. That is the engineering hazard that a railroad is tasked with mitigating.
The idea of flange filler strips may be old, but old ideas that fail are often finally perfected as materials and processes evolve.
This link should be able open large views of patent illustrations of the cross section of these elastomeric fillers that can be simply pressed into place without taking apart the crossing. It seems like a well-engineered product that would be a realistic approach to serving a real need. It is called a "Shallow Flangeway" and made by Polycorp.
The question is not whether elastomeric flangeways exist, or how well they actually perform in service, and do or don't require more careful maintenance than their manufacturers tout.
It is that it is not the railroad's responsibility, far less the railroad's liability, to put these things into crossings or to have to account for any consequences. I particularly object to the rather trolling left-wing insinuation that this is some heartless robber-baron cost-cutting reckless-endangerment thing, when the railroad safety interest (and by extension the danger to the great majority of the public through derailment) is in safe room under the flanges at all times under any conditions.
Overmod The question is not whether elastomeric flangeways exist, or how well they actually perform in service, and do or don't require more careful maintenance than their manufacturers tout. It is that it is not the railroad's responsibility, far less the railroad's liability, to put these things into crossings or to have to account for any consequences. I particularly object to the rather trolling left-wing insinuation that this is some heartless robber-baron cost-cutting reckless-endangerment thing, when the railroad safety interest (and by extension the danger to the great majority of the public through derailment) is in safe room under the flanges at all times under any conditions.
Where do you find the "rather trolling left-wing insinuation that this is some heartless robber-baron cost-cutting reckless-endangerment thing"? Who has said that it is the railroads' responsibility to install the flangeway fillers? If it were to go forward, I have no idea who should pay for it. Who pays for the crossings and their equipment? Maybe the onus to resolve the danger should be borne by the mobility equipment manufacturers.
How many derailments have been caused? So is public safety for pedestrians and cyclists irrelevant in your view? Why make this political when it is not? Euclid is certainly not a left winger. Let's see some facts to back up your edicts.
For the most part, crossings must be paid for by government units, even though IMO they should be cost shared with rails.
Just think- if he'd have gone straight across the rails, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
charlie hebdoHow many derailments have been caused? So is public safety for pedestrians and cyclists irrelevant in your view? Why make this political when it is not? Euclid is certainly not a left winger. Let's see some facts to back up your edicts. For the most part, crossings must be paid for by government units, even though IMO they should be cost shared with rails.
Why plant the crossing protection equipment in THE MIDDLE of the sidewalk?
No matter who is responsible, RR or State/County - THEY WERE WRONG!
BaltACDWhy plant the crossing protection equipment in THE MIDDLE of the sidewalk?
While I agree that the placement of said equipment is wrong (and the other side isn't much better, with a utility pole and signs), there is still no reason for this gentleman to be in the position he was.
Unless this was his first time ever over that crossing (which I doubt), he could have crossed over without being over the rails. And there is a crosswalk a half a block away that he could have used if he wanted to be on the other side of the road.
Unfortunately, that crossing equipment on the other side poses the same issue.
Still - he could likely have avoided the situation. Then, again, maybe he's always done it that way and just happened to get stuck this time...
tree68 BaltACD Why plant the crossing protection equipment in THE MIDDLE of the sidewalk? While I agree that the placement of said equipment is wrong (and the other side isn't much better, with a utility pole and signs), there is still no reason for this gentleman to be in the position he was. Unless this was his first time ever over that crossing (which I doubt), he could have crossed over without being over the rails. And there is a crosswalk a half a block away that he could have used if he wanted to be on the other side of the road. Unfortunately, that crossing equipment on the other side poses the same issue. Still - he could likely have avoided the situation. Then, again, maybe he's always done it that way and just happened to get stuck this time...
BaltACD Why plant the crossing protection equipment in THE MIDDLE of the sidewalk?
The only way for a wheelchair of that type to cross the tracks would be to be IN THE STREET. There is insufficient room on the sidewalk for the wheelchair to pass on either side of the crossing protection equipment - no matter if the equipment is active or inactive.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.1304105,-121.2716698,3a,75y,248.53h,87.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6Xsr2dRzy7LON7iAn70XBg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
zugmannJust why do you feel you have the need to post that crap? Honest question.
Now forget I said it, like I said.
EuclidWhere do you find the "rather trolling left-wing insinuation that this is some heartless robber-baron cost-cutting reckless-endangerment thing"?
As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service.
I have no immediate sources at hand for results from debris-filled flangeways but I would certainly abide by the opinion of those in the professional community here regarding that risk. I'll grant you that icing up is unlikely to be an issue in that part of California.
Don't mistake my personal opinion: as a former avid cyclist I'd love to see the elastomer strips anywhere there are flangeways in pavement. Just paid for by road maintenance, and not made UP's social responsibility when it is the town's or the state's.
Good Grief!
There has not been one of these circular firing squad Threads around her in quite a while.....Makes me miss people like Michael Sol, Futuremodal,and some of the 'discussions' on the MILW.
Overmod Euclid Where do you find the "rather trolling left-wing insinuation that this is some heartless robber-baron cost-cutting reckless-endangerment thing"? I see it gearing up in comments like this, from 8:57 this morning: As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service. The railroad was assuredly in place long before that particular crossing, and I suspect that someone with the time, patience and resources can find the precise details for that particular crossing. (Including who arranged for the crossing-signal masts to be smack in the middle of the sidewalks.) I have no immediate sources at hand for results from debris-filled flangeways but I would certainly abide by the opinion of those in the professional community here regarding that risk. I'll grant you that icing up is unlikely to be an issue in that part of California. Don't mistake my personal opinion: as a former avid cyclist I'd love to see the elastomer strips anywhere there are flangeways in pavement. Just paid for by road maintenance, and not made UP's social responsibility when it is the town's or the state's.
Euclid Where do you find the "rather trolling left-wing insinuation that this is some heartless robber-baron cost-cutting reckless-endangerment thing"?
I see it gearing up in comments like this, from 8:57 this morning:
The railroad was assuredly in place long before that particular crossing, and I suspect that someone with the time, patience and resources can find the precise details for that particular crossing. (Including who arranged for the crossing-signal masts to be smack in the middle of the sidewalks.)
Okay, I see. I think the deep flangeways are somewhat of a public danger, but I would not blame the railroads. It is up to the regulators and lawmakers to come up with the solution and look for the funding. As I mentioned, I have no idea who pays for the crossing itself and its upkeep. I did review an article by the inventor of the shallow flangeways to be produced by Polycorp in Canada. He makes big pitch for the idea as a long overdue safety improvement and he cites some cases where people have been killed. I don't think the overall number is particularly high, but it has happened and the general hazard seems have been recognized for a long time.
He also brought up the claim that these extruder elastomer filler strips provide self cleaning action to prevent the buildup of debris in the flangeways. I think he said the power for that action comes from the flanges pressing into the filler strips, and also a similar effect of vehicles running over the strips. I took him to mean that the use of the filler strips maintained cleaner flangeways than if they are left open as is typical now.
I think he also said something about the strips preventing typical ice buildup in the flangeways which can cause derailments. I might contact them tomorrow and ask for more details on these points. In looking at his patent, it seems that he has put a lot engineering thought into the extruded details of these strips. So with the right design and materials, this flangeway fillers could be a brilliant improvment.
Why is the railroad the bad guy here? I'd bet the crossing was there before motorized wheelchairs were invented. Shouldn't the manufacturer of the chairs have done a better job in th design process?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murph,
I think Overmod hinted at that with his comment about the grandmother of all product liability suits.
BaltACD THERE WILL NEVER BE A RISK FREE WORLD!
I used to get a laugh out of the highway road construction signs that said "TRAVEL AT YOUR OWN RISK". WHen don't you travel at your own risk?
Also, my suposition is that as the gentleman got to the crossing and his main tire was about cross the rail, the bell started and he tried to turn around. Thinking it would be faster than going on across. In the process, as he got his scooter in line with the rail, his wheels fell into the flangeway and he was stuck. I hope the forward facing video get made available and gets posted. Kodos to the quick thinking police office.
OM: You have a very selective memory. When railroaders like BALT bring up the hedge fund managers in relation to the railroads, I don't hear you complain about left-wing trolling. You are the only person who entered the political element into this thread.
Perhaps the "I was here first" excuse is a tired one. It doesn't apply in a lot of other safety considerations. And in many cases trails preceded rail lines, especially east of the Mississippi.
You have a very selective memory. When railroaders like BALT bring up the hedge fund managers in relation to the railroads, I don't hear you complain about left-wing trolling.
Were in fact this a case of a big, bad railroad run at the whim of hedge-fund people nickel-and-diming to put the public at risk I would give comments like yours more credence. I don't think the current Union Pacific management can be characterized as such. Unless 'of course they're all hedge-fund managers at heart in management' argument applies; perhaps it does, but I would not presume it before substantiating it.
Perhaps the "I was here first" excuse is a tired one. It doesn't apply in a lot of other safety considerations.
As I said, I prefer to see elastomer or similar strips installed, and it is certainly possible that, as with multiple cameras for supervision of crossing intrusions, these will come to be included in crossing specifications. While I would find it surprising if railroads were required to pay any part of providing them it is possible that some argument about nominal 'railroad benefits from their use' could enter into discussion during the process of amending specifications, and it would be interesting to see the outcome; it is also possible that railroads tasked with maintaining some aspects of crossing safety-equipment maintenance (as I believe is the case for at least some of the track circuits and operating components of lights and gates) could have this extended to watching for and replacing damaged or vandalized strips. For reasons including those I mentioned I would find this an unadvisable assumption of liability, and I'd expect any savvy railroad legal department to see through it and insist the responsibility stay with those responsible for road traffic.
And in many cases trails preceded rail lines, especially east of the Mississippi.
I think the specific issue of railroad responsibility for 'new' safety innovation (or more specifically, railroad assumption of responsibility for emergent concerns, such as (here) hardware solutions for ADA-mandated misdesigned power chairs) lies properly with the FRA. It is there that I would expect arguments about allocation of cost or responsibility to be made or argued, and I would expect it to be the subject of first proposed and then enacted rulemaking. Since in fact this issue is now a high-profile demonstrated safety concern I would be surprised if the FRA does not, in fact, look carefully at it; they may even decide to issue an emergency notice, as for restricting the speed of undegassed oil trains, although given the number of crossings this might be difficult to arrange for.
As usual, selective readings, misreading, arcane terms, red herrings and logorrhea by Mr. Polymath.
A poor guy gets stuck on the tracks, and goes through a terrifying experience.
A magnificent heroic police officer risks her life and saves the man's life.
Clearly, we need to discuss antifa.
Lithonia OperatorClearly, we need to discuss antifa.
The discussion now involves how best to keep the situation from recurring, and that is where I suggest we direct attention.
charlie hebdoAs usual, selective readings, misreading, arcane terms, red herrings and logorrhea by Mr. Polymath.
What was it Socrates said, about how those who lose the argument resort to insults?
And no, no misreadings, and the only red herrings were yours. The logorrhea I acknowledge, though.
Lodi does not get much better at the intersection.
Lithonia OperatorA poor guy gets stuck on the tracks, and goes through a terrifying experience. A magnificent heroic police officer risks her life and saves the man's life. Clearly, we need to discuss antifa.
Remember, in fighting and winning WW II, the Greatest Generation was antifa.
Anti-Fascist.
Overmod charlie hebdo As usual, selective readings, misreading, arcane terms, red herrings and logorrhea by Mr. Polymath. What was it Socrates said, about how those who lose the argument resort to insults? And no, no misreadings, and the only red herrings were yours. The logorrhea I acknowledge, though.
charlie hebdo As usual, selective readings, misreading, arcane terms, red herrings and logorrhea by Mr. Polymath.
And once again, you resort to denial of your selective readings. I will point out one simple phrase I stated which you ignored ["especially east of the Mississippi"] so that you could distract. And YOU were the person who dragged in a totally irrelevant political epithet about leftists and California , not that there's us anything wrong with them, except in your world in Memphis.
In looking at the street view, I don't think the crossing should be open to personal mobility vehicles. The clearance past the gate hinge base is insufficient on both sides. This may require leaving the sidewalk on either side. One side requires entering the roadway and the other side requires dropping off the sidewalk and into loose gravel. Both sides require fouling the path of the crossing gate operation with the gate dropping on the road side and the counterweights rising on the non-road side.
I don’t necessarily see this incident as the fault of U.P. or the person in the wheelchair. The fault is with the crossing design, and I suspect that City may be ultimately responsible for approving that.
But, in any case, it was a mighty close call, and it would not surprise me if both U.P. and the City are named as the defendants in legal action for the stress and injury.
Here is a solution that would work for the flangeways:
https://extrememotus.com/all-terrain-wheelchair-research-center/beach-wheelchair-2?gclid=CjwKCAjw1ej5BRBhEiwAfHyh1D3apizb9XSgmA3YCurCx0_wt4LkbUZncwhcQGjS8SQa1i9mClLlpBoCAJEQAvD_BwE
Or this ...
https://www.tracfab.com/
The idea that chronological precedence determines who should pay for safety and health improvements is not necessarily so. Even within rail world, safety appliances have been the financial responsibility of the railroads, not governments, even though the requirements to adopt them came after the equipment and ROW were already in use: coupler improvements, airbrake improvements, track standards, PTC. So why not crossings? Shouldn't the railroads share costs with governments at a minimum?
charlie hebdo I will point out one simple phrase I stated which you ignored ["especially east of the Mississippi"] so that you could distract.
[/quote]And YOU were the person who dragged in a totally irrelevant political epithet about leftists and California, not that there's anything wrong with them, except in your world in Memphis. [/quote]Removed already, except to acknowledge it was there before removal. The comment about finding the railroad negligent because it is mercenary, however, continues to be something I will dispute as having relevance here.
Overmod charlie hebdo I will point out one simple phrase I stated which you ignored ["especially east of the Mississippi"] so that you could distract. I actually gave that red herring more attention than it factually merited -- what possible importance could it have for a discussion of affairs in California? Issues of crossing law and responsibility are well-documented by experts; I would seek there if you have concerns on who is responsible for different aspects of the crossing in Lodi, rather than blithering generalities about unrelated areas.
I actually gave that red herring more attention than it factually merited -- what possible importance could it have for a discussion of affairs in California? Issues of crossing law and responsibility are well-documented by experts; I would seek there if you have concerns on who is responsible for different aspects of the crossing in Lodi, rather than blithering generalities about unrelated areas.
[/quote]
How or why is revisiting the funding for bringing railroad crossings into the modern era not relevant to a discussion of safer rail crossings, whether Lodi, St. Louis or Long Island? Without funding and mandates, nothing gets done. And Wall Street in the broad sense clearly impacts most/all railroad decisions.
Although removing your political remark seems like Stalinist airbrushing of Zinoviev & Co. out of official photos, I guess it's at least an acknowledgement.
charlie hebdoSo why not crossings? Shouldn't the railroads share costs with governments at a minimum?
Perhaps the most direct example in recent history involves the cost of monitored crossing systems -- usually involving cameras like those for red-light enforcement, on a tape loop like incident recorders, that can be linked to appropriate local or state agencies for enforcement. It is clearly in a railroad's 'enlightened self-interest' to facilitate enforcement leading either to deterrence of 'crossing violations' or the interdiction of the worst offenders (or "recidivists") but it is also, clearly, neither good economics nor good politics to have railroad police perform more than an assistive role, if any, in actual enforcement. This alone indicates a role for the railroad in setting up and coordinating communications for these systems.
This is separate from a different issue, which is an extension of the common provision of regular crossing protection. It is my understanding that in most cases the 'road' agency pays the capital cost of the devices, but the railroad maintains them. Where enhancements to crossings facilitate 'better' railroad operation, a railroad might agree to a larger expense than for simple crossing protection.
A sort of counter-example is in the area of 'quiet zones' where municipalities offer some form of statutory immunity to railroads in return for a Federally-sanctioned exemption from horn regulations. Up to now the 'enhanced' protection required to establish this (e.g. full gates with barriers and signage) has been the responsibility of the ones wanting the quiet zones; there may be a case that the added immunity is valuable 'enough' to railroads to contribute in converting additional crossings to quiet status.
There are issues of 'current privilege' involved here that may make it 'unlikely' at best that railroads will pay for something they don't think they have to, or have been exempted from by law. Some form of effective community organizing might in time influence this, as might changes in the makeup or administration of governments or agencies with oversight of railroad policy...
charlie hebdoAlthough removing your political remark seems like Stalinist airbrushing of Zinoviev & Co. out of official photos, I guess it's at least an acknowledgement.
EuclidHere is a solution that would work for the flangeways:
The principal difficulty is that these chairs have to negotiate doorways and tight interior arrangements, and the tires to be effective and yet give reasonably long battery life will have to be relatively wide, and be 'outboard' enough not to produce dangerous tipping with weight shift or surface tilt. It might be possible to provide a low-pressure running surface as a cylinder stored flat, even disk-like within the hub of a running wheel, but expanding outward with gas pressure; this might be arranged to lift one side to help clear something like high centering.
Providing the wider tread for the 'casters' is, I think, more vital in the short run than making a power chair 'off-road compatible'. One potential solution here is that used on some zero-turn Walker mowers, which steer using the same principles as these scooters; they do offer a single wide low'pressure tire for the rear caster, but also multiple wheels in the same wider frame for applications where 'scuffing' is important to minimize. On a scooter having several wheels of 'existing' width, each with independent ball or roller bearings on a common shaft, would not greatly increase either running or turning resistance but would prevent the settling or wedging of a single wheel into a flangeway -- which is the principal thing to be solved to prevent the Lodi accident from recurring elsewhere.
I don't say this to cut off discussion of better imperfect-surface operation of 'self-drive' mobility solutions, which I think should be encouraged. Although I am, now that you mention it, enraged that anyone should encounter the need for that capability going down an improved sidewalk in a state like California...
A google 'drive' up and down Lodi shows that new sidewalks have been added with ADA mats on the ramps.
BaltACD Remember, in fighting and winning WW II, the Greatest Generation was antifa. Anti-Fascist.
I really have a problem with the so-called antifa being compared to the veterans of WW2. The US forces were much more disciplined about who they were fighting and what they were fighting for.
Erik_Mag BaltACD Remember, in fighting and winning WW II, the Greatest Generation was antifa. Anti-Fascist. I really have a problem with the so-called antifa being compared to the veterans of WW2. The US forces were much more disciplined about who they were fighting and what they were fighting for.
Fascists are Fascists - no matter if they are from the 1930'-40's or in the 21st Century.
The efforts against Fascist rule in the 1930's didn't become organized until September 1, 1939 - had anti-fascist efforts been more successful, maybe September 1, 1939 would not have happened.
BaltACDFascists are Fascists - no matter if they are from the 1930'-40's or in the 21st Century.
The issue I have with antifa is that they start by redefining 'fascism' to be something only they say it is, and then start using some of the worst historically-Fascist attitudes and tactics themselves. That mocks those who actually had to fight and die to stop the real thing.
In my opinion perhaps one of the worst versions of 'fascism' in the 1930s was spared us only by strategically placed assassination in 1935.
https://www.netflix.com/title/80989924
BaltACD The efforts against Fascist rule in the 1930's didn't become organized until September 1, 1939 - had anti-fascist efforts been more successful, maybe September 1, 1939 would not have happened.
Beg to differ, the original antifa organization got started in the early 1930's and were considered by people in the center to be as bad if not worse than the NSDAP brown shirts. Keep in mind that this is when the Holomodor was going on in the Ukraine and a bit over a decade after Poland repelled an attempted invasion by the Soviets.
Overmod, I see no evidence that people protesting fascism are redefining it or taking on attitudes (?!) of the people they oppose.
I really think you get yourself into trouble by reading reporting on 'antifa' as a movement that is written by people who have a political or financial interest in creating fear. They assign "tactics" to a loose bunch of people who are really doing nothing else but standing up pushing back against, frankly, evil behavior on our city streets.
I think the people fighting fascists and white supremacists in the United States have the same heart as those who fought fascism in World War II. I applaud them. I applaud people who are standing up to our own government's authoritarian tactics, orchestrated by guys (it turns out) who haven't taken their "acting" jobs in a valid way.
Put another way, stop trying to make "antifa" a thing...it's a crappy shortcut way of saying "those who oppose and push back against fascists and authoritarianism." Count me in.
Erik_Mag Beg to differ, the original antifa organization got started in the early 1930's and were considered by people in the center to be as bad if not worse than the NSDAP brown shirts. Keep in mind that this is when the Holomodor was going on in the Ukraine and a bit over a decade after Poland repelled an attempted invasion by the Soviets.
Any attempt to say that the anti fascism protestors of the second decade of the 21st century are in any way a perpetuation of "the original antifa organization" is absurd...in no small part because most younger people, including those out protesting, don't have that kind of time depth.
jcburns Erik_Mag Beg to differ, the original antifa organization got started in the early 1930's and were considered by people in the center to be as bad if not worse than the NSDAP brown shirts. Keep in mind that this is when the Holomodor was going on in the Ukraine and a bit over a decade after Poland repelled an attempted invasion by the Soviets. Any attempt to say that the anti fascism protestors of the second decade of the 21st century are in any way a perpetuation of "the original antifa organization" is absurd...in no small part because most younger people, including those out protesting, don't have that kind of time depth.
However, those undertaking Fascist actions in the 21st Century have many of the same aims as those taking those actions in the 20th Century.
Erik_Mag BaltACD The efforts against Fascist rule in the 1930's didn't become organized until September 1, 1939 - had anti-fascist efforts been more successful, maybe September 1, 1939 would not have happened. Beg to differ, the original antifa organization got started in the early 1930's and were considered by people in the center to be as bad if not worse than the NSDAP brown shirts. Keep in mind that this is when the Holomodor was going on in the Ukraine and a bit over a decade after Poland repelled an attempted invasion by the Soviets.
Beg to differ on the timeline. The antifascist street fighters of the SPD (Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold) and those affiliated with the KPD (Rot Front) were well-organized and violently engaged the SA (brown shirts) of the NSDAP and the rightist Stahlhelm in the 1920s as well as with each other.
The current Antifa are a very loose, diverse *group* in US, some leftist, some anarchist. They are slightly more organized in parts of Europe.
jcburnsPut another way, stop trying to make "antifa" a thing...it's a crappy shortcut way of saying "those who oppose and push back against fascists and authoritarianism." Count me in.
It is certainly true that various groups and movements have latched into it as a convenient bugbear to get excitement and money out of the susceptible, as they have done with Soros all these years, and with inchoate threats of 'communism' in my childhood. That carries little weight with me.
There is a related issue between 'black lives matter', which I think is something that should be supported until the underlying issues are rectified, and the official 'Black Lives Matter' organization.
I appreciate your response, Overmod, and I hear where you're coming from, but I think in some ways we (you, me, older people, people of a background more removed from these folks) aren't equipped to really differentiate between the organizations and the greater causes. Anyone can put a video up claiming to be part of something called 'antifa', providing very basic visual "proof" that they're part of it, and then commit acts that many of not all of the anti fascism protestors would call "wrong" or "going too far."
There are (I believe) propagandists out there who are counting on you to draw those very conclusions. I think the Black Lives Matter org is filled with good people who want to change a very basic problem with American society. Because they're young, because they grew up with music, cultural references, and experiences PERHAPS far different than ours, they pick some ways to express that that sound dangerous to (again being diplomatic here) ears attached to heads filled with different life experiences.
I think that's a very long way of saying cut them some slack, give them a chance to change the world for the better, and cheer them on when they do. And when they screw up, give them space to try again without charging them with treason.
And then again, the world is always full of grifters and conmen who latch onto good causes and appropriate them for camouflage while they exploit for personal gain.
Not to mention all the people who will gladly loot a Best Buy, and then excuse doing so as "social justice"
jcburnsI think that's a very long way of saying cut them some slack, give them a chance to change the world for the better, and cheer them on when they do. And when they screw up, give them space to try again without charging them with treason.
My principal objection to the current antifa is that it's too functionally similar to counterpart groups on the 'actually' fascist right in their willingness to use violence outside a context of even pseudo-process-of-justice ways... or as a Maoist tactic similar to that employed by Sendero Luminoso, one of the organizations I most despise.
Convicted One Not to mention all the people who will gladly loot a Best Buy, and then excuse doing so as "social justice"
Oh, we were doing so well, and then you toss this fiction into the pile. The protesters were not the looters. Many of the looters were propagandists—possibly from the far right—they came in and used tactics to provoke what you just wrote—the false conclusion that the protesters and the looters were one mass of people. The "looters" were making a false propaganda story more believable. And yep, you bit.
Is there a place for genuine discussion of class disparity, especially from the BLM viewpoint? I sure think so. I look at how many ways the "deck is stacked" against folks who have to work multiple jobs, have little or no health care, and have to say yes to working in environments that may be hazardous to their health in a pandemic.
You know, like teachers! (And harvesters, meat processors, cleaning crews, and some of the folks who work for the nation's railroads, airlines, and common carriers.)
jcburns Convicted One Not to mention all the people who will gladly loot a Best Buy, and then excuse doing so as "social justice" Oh, we were doing so well, and then you toss this fiction into the pile. The protesters were not the looters. Many of the looters were propagandists—possibly from the far right—they came in and used tactics to provoke what you just wrote—the false conclusion that the protesters and the looters were one mass of people. The "looters" were making a false propaganda story more believable. And yep, you bit.
I agree with you on most of this, but at least one incident does not fit your narrative. The looters last weekend on Michigan Avenue in Chicago were simply highly organized gangs of young black men and women. Some person claiming to be from BLM said it wasn't looting, but reparations. I don't think this was the work of rightist or leftist folks, just thieves. And that's what Mayor Lightfoot said also.
charlie hebdo Some person claiming to be from BLM said it wasn't looting, but reparations. I don't think this was the work of rightist or leftist folks, just thieves. And that's what Mayor Lightfoot said also.
Which is why I said what I did. As counterpoint to his "cut them all slack, and if they screw up, forgive them" insistence.
Just because they claim to be aligned with a just cause is no reason to cut them carte blanche.
People I've seen in videos walking out of looted stores with spoils in hand. really don't look like right wing operatives.
Convicted One charlie hebdo Some person claiming to be from BLM said it wasn't looting, but reparations. I don't think this was the work of rightist or leftist folks, just thieves. And that's what Mayor Lightfoot said also. Which is why I said what I did. As counterpoint to his "cut them all slack, and if they screw up, forgive them" insistence. Just because they claim to be aligned with a just cause is no reason to cut them carte blanche. People I've seen in videos walking out of looted stores with spoils in hand. really don't look like right wing operatives.
They are neither rightists nor leftists. They're simply apolitical criminals.
charlie hebdoThey are neither rightists nor leftists. They're simply apolitical criminals.
Frankly, I'm not closed minded to the possibility of "bad actors" from all over the spectrum.
Hopefully we can all agree that the bad actors are all opportunists.
Yikes! I,m gone for 23 hours and there is a page of posts about ANTIFA and nothing to do with the original post. Guys get a life and stay on topic please. I'm not a moderator and I'm not asking for one to do their job but I was hopingsomeone might say something about the cop and the manand/or the train or its crew. But NO, the cats have to argue. #%@&.
Simply well-organized criminals, probably gang involvement. They had the break-ins timed well. Nothing to do with opportunity, which seems like a sneaky wording for advancing some ulterior agenda.
"Claiming to be from BLM" —that's part of the problem right there.
Convicted OnePeople I've seen in videos walking out of looted stores with spoils in hand. really don't look like right wing operatives.
They wouldn't be good operatives if they did, would they now...?
zugmannThey wouldn't be good operatives if they did, would they now...?
ROFL! I guess that depends upon whether one chooses to believe the "false" propaganda, or the "true" propaganda.
The following is somewhat informative, Look to the section "Flange fillers and surfacing"
https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/16553/Engineering_for_Ped_Safety_At_Crossings_final.pdf
"Currently there are no design strategies that completely eliminate the flange way gap for high speed passenger and freight rail systems"
Looking at some of the video stills it looks like one of his main wheels dropped in the flangeway when he got turned parallel to the tracks.
Either wider wheels or smaller flangeways ...
One other thought is maybe at the edge of the crossing the flangeways widen (or the center drops) to allow for an escape path.
How strange then that I see flangeways safeguards used at crossings on the UP/Metra line used by over 100 freight and heavy-rail commuter trains daily. I guess they didn't read the report about "completely eliminating the flangeways gap." Or is mitigating the gap problem to a large extent not good enough?
In Mt. Pleasant, Iowa, on the Thresher's grounds (Midwest Old Settler's and Thresher's Reunion) there are tracks for the narrow gauge RR there, that lead into a couple of "car barns" These buildings and the concrete/asphalt areas around them have what appears to be a hard rubber substance in the flangeways. My impression is that they are like a stiff rubber hollow hose. I have made the assumption that the material gives under the weight of the car wheel/flange, but is stiff enough that foot traffic and wheel chairs, etc. are not heavy enough to deform the material such that anything would get between the rail and the surrounding concrete/asphalt.
When I first saw it many years ago, I attempted to compress it with the heal of my shoe and noted only that it felt softer than the rail or concrete, but I was not able to affect it enough to really see any compression.
From my viewpoint, the material was an ideal solution to the foot traffic "tripping hazard" and small wheeled vehicle "stuck wheel" problems. I am sure that the railed vehicle traffic is just a few cars per year when things are brought out for special events and then put back in the barns for storage, so wear is not a problem.
Found a guideline.
https://www.access-board.gov/guidelines-and-standards/streets-sidewalks/public-rights-of-way/proposed-rights-of-way-guidelines/chapter-r3-technical-requirements
R302.7.4 Flangeway Gaps. Flangeway gaps at pedestrian at-grade rail crossings shall be 64 mm (2.5 in) maximum on non-freight rail track and 75 mm (3 in) maximum on freight rail track.
charlie hebdoHow strange then that I see flangeways safeguards used at crossings on the UP/Metra line used by over 100 freight and heavy-rail commuter trains daily. I guess they didn't read the report about "completely eliminating the flangeways gap." Or is mitigating the gap problem to a large extent not good enough?
But the issue with the Chicago crossings is more who's paying to provide the added safety, and how the agreement to use the fillers apportions maintenance cost and legal risk. My guess is it's either some appropriate department of Chicago or IDOT, perhaps with Federal money of some kind for 'grade crossing safety' or METRA, but not Union Pacific.
It might be interesting to research who would be responsible for flangeway fillers in Lodi; I'll bet a hat lawsuits to compel their installation there and perhaps more statewide are already in process.
As I will not argue there should be. Just that the railroads should not be the ones to have to pay...
Looks like Lodi is spending state ballot measure money on bike lanes. This may explain the new sidewaks on google street view.The target crossing is not on the current active project list.
https://www.lodi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/966/Bicycle-Master-Plan-PDF
Unless they ask for a variance from FRA, aint gonna happen. The FRA 213 rules won't allow it (flangeway must be open per 213.133c and 213.137a)....The best thing they could do is place some common sense signage (kinda hard in CA) in advance of the crossings and hope the clueless heed the signage.
Within sight of the Colorado Railroad Museum is a skew crossing owned now by RTD and operated by BNSF serving the Coors brewery that has signage and special side crossings for bikes to cross the track at right angles - Blown off by idots sitting on his/her brains with predictable results (Golden EMS knows the place by heart, calls to that location on a regular basis)
...Even with flangeway fillers, women (plus Charlie & Bucky ?) have this issue with heels and those heels quite often damage the field side filler of the rail crossing, usually sticking in the seam where the rail and rubber meet. Hardly a new issue. RTD-Denver has dealt with it since they began rail operations. (Ironically there are Denver Tramway complaints from the 1940's over the same issue)
Overmod charlie hebdo How strange then that I see flangeways safeguards used at crossings on the UP/Metra line used by over 100 freight and heavy-rail commuter trains daily. I guess they didn't read the report about "completely eliminating the flangeways gap." Or is mitigating the gap problem to a large extent not good enough? The criterion for eliminating wheelchair/scooter risk is considerably less difficult than 'eliminating the flangeways gap concerns entirely'; in fact I think comparatively simple and cheap material, particularly in most trafficked areas in California, should work well for that purpose. (And yes, by extension I think that commenting on more ideal 'perfection' as if to deny this counts as a red-herring argument...) But the issue with the Chicago crossings is more who's paying to provide the added safety, and how the agreement to use the fillers apportions maintenance cost and legal risk. My guess is it's either some appropriate department of Chicago or IDOT, perhaps with Federal money of some kind for 'grade crossing safety' or METRA, but not Union Pacific. It might be interesting to research who would be responsible for flangeway fillers in Lodi; I'll bet a hat lawsuits to compel their installation there and perhaps more statewide are already in process. As I will not argue there should be. Just that the railroads should not be the ones to have to pay...
charlie hebdo How strange then that I see flangeways safeguards used at crossings on the UP/Metra line used by over 100 freight and heavy-rail commuter trains daily. I guess they didn't read the report about "completely eliminating the flangeways gap." Or is mitigating the gap problem to a large extent not good enough?
The criterion for eliminating wheelchair/scooter risk is considerably less difficult than 'eliminating the flangeways gap concerns entirely'; in fact I think comparatively simple and cheap material, particularly in most trafficked areas in California, should work well for that purpose. (And yes, by extension I think that commenting on more ideal 'perfection' as if to deny this counts as a red-herring argument...)
Why not? Why should railroads be immune from paying their way? I am not sure, but in my town (not in Chicago or Cook County) and probably several others along the former G&CU (UP), the original landholders gave the ROW to the railroad.
MC seems to think protection of flangeways is prohibited. Then what was the FRA report about? What are my eyes seeing? A mirage?
But then he seems to be operating under the delusion that I said anything about women's heels and flangeways. Not so. Try reading and citing more accurately.
charlie hebdoWhy not? Why should railroads be immune from paying their way?
I do think we need to establish the effective conditions for that specific crossing, in that specific town and state, before we do more than speculate from other jurisdictions or circumstances. It does have to be said that Federal law regarding railroad responsibilities has been important in other respects regarding what locals or even state governments considered their prerogatives... but I think there is nothing that would forbid UP from, say, allowing municipalities to place the same type of protection used in the Illinois crossings.
... he seems to be operating under the delusion that I said anything about women's heels and flangeways.
mudchickenThe best thing they could do is place some common sense signage (kinda hard in CA) in advance of the crossings and hope the clueless heed the signage.
"Handicapped people not allowed to use the sidewalk and road here".
Sure, why not?
The insufficient width of the sidewalk could be fixed, unless there are adjacent property owner issues. Given the layout of the area, I doubt that would be of consequence.
The flangeway issue could be somewhat resolved with signage, as suggested. "Cross Rails At Right Angles" together with suitable pictograms should cover most situations.
If the vision distances are suitable, perhaps signs to the effect of "Do not start across until the way is clear. Once you start across, continue until you are clear of the tracks. Do not attempt to turn around."
zugmannHandicapped people not allowed to use the sidewalk and road here". Sure, why not?
Take the risk of suits out of the mix and you'll likely get much more effective compliance...
Overmod charlie hebdo Why not? Why should railroads be immune from paying their way? They should not be ... where it is their concern. Use of the sidewalk is not. I have to wonder whether since Lodi is making a push for 'bicycle-route' crossings elsewhere, ADA requirements for disabled crossing could be interpreted as requiring use of the improved 'safer' accommodation, and therefore marking the crossing in question as 'Cross at your sole risk'... or in fact closing it to pedestrian traffic with 'detour' paths to adjacent ones. I do think we need to establish the effective conditions for that specific crossing, in that specific town and state, before we do more than speculate from other jurisdictions or circumstances. It does have to be said that Federal law regarding railroad responsibilities has been important in other respects regarding what locals or even state governments considered their prerogatives... but I think there is nothing that would forbid UP from, say, allowing municipalities to place the same type of protection used in the Illinois crossings. ... he seems to be operating under the delusion that I said anything about women's heels and flangeways. I have the ugly suspicion from my reading comprehension that your and Euclid's masculinity is being subtly impugned...
charlie hebdo Why not? Why should railroads be immune from paying their way?
They should not be ... where it is their concern. Use of the sidewalk is not. I have to wonder whether since Lodi is making a push for 'bicycle-route' crossings elsewhere, ADA requirements for disabled crossing could be interpreted as requiring use of the improved 'safer' accommodation, and therefore marking the crossing in question as 'Cross at your sole risk'... or in fact closing it to pedestrian traffic with 'detour' paths to adjacent ones.
I have the ugly suspicion from my reading comprehension that your and Euclid's masculinity is being subtly impugned...
I realized that but I let it go, chalking it up to a guy out of touch with the 21st century.
Railroads and some of their fans and employees are not much on community relations, etc.
I am getting kinda unsteady on my feet these days... I think all crossings should have handrails across the tracks to help me cross. I suppose they'd have to be tied to the crossing gates so that when the gates go down, the handrails go up to allow the train to pass. Might be kind of fun to hang on for dear life as the handrails go up before I get across!
mudchicken ...Even with flangeway fillers, women (plus Charlie & Bucky ?) have this issue with heels and those heels quite often damage the field side filler of the rail crossing, usually sticking in the seam where the rail and rubber meet. Hardly a new issue. RTD-Denver has dealt with it since they began rail operations. (Ironically there are Denver Tramway complaints from the 1940's over the same issue)
1940s. Wow had not even thought of that.. Of course any one who walks out on public locations with heels ?
As far as to who pays. We get to that very old argument. Is the crossing a public owned crossing or as at most locations a RR owned crossing with a road easement with the road owner responsible for everything about the crossing?
mudchicken Unless they ask for a variance from FRA, aint gonna happen. The FRA 213 rules won't allow it (flangeway must be open per 213.133c and 213.137a)....The best thing they could do is place some common sense signage (kinda hard in CA) in advance of the crossings and hope the clueless heed the signage. Within sight of the Colorado Railroad Museum is a skew crossing owned now by RTD and operated by BNSF serving the Coors brewery that has signage and special side crossings for bikes to cross the track at right angles - Blown off by idots sitting on his/her brains with predictable results (Golden EMS knows the place by heart, calls to that location on a regular basis) ...Even with flangeway fillers, women (plus Charlie & Bucky ?) have this issue with heels and those heels quite often damage the field side filler of the rail crossing, usually sticking in the seam where the rail and rubber meet. Hardly a new issue. RTD-Denver has dealt with it since they began rail operations. (Ironically there are Denver Tramway complaints from the 1940's over the same issue)
Your embittered attitude towards matters you detest (lawyers, counties, California, etc.) seems to lead to errors in reading correctly and/or proper attribution. I never said anything about issues with heels and I don't think Bucky (Euclid) did either. Perhaps an acknowledgement of your snide remark/error?
blue streak 1 mudchicken ...Even with flangeway fillers, women (plus Charlie & Bucky ?) have this issue with heels and those heels quite often damage the field side filler of the rail crossing, usually sticking in the seam where the rail and rubber meet. Hardly a new issue. RTD-Denver has dealt with it since they began rail operations. (Ironically there are Denver Tramway complaints from the 1940's over the same issue) 1940s. Wow had not even thought of that.. Of course any one who walks out on public locations with heels ? As far as to who pays. We get to that very old argument. Is the crossing a public owned crossing or as at most locations a RR owned crossing with a road easement with the road owner responsible for everything about the crossing?
Amen; Ironically the statement about easements gets twisted and rarely holds true or is the reverse. The further west you go, the more common is the fact that the railroad was there first. (In CA there are easements for crossings, but the railroad is the underlying fee owner and the easement (in place of a contract, railroads hate easements with a passion) puts the ONUS on the road agency anyhow for the right to use the crossing.) Finding an easement in a railroad DV-107 land schedule is infrequent, almost rare, and usually not for railroad road crossing purposes. Yet the hearsay persists.
MC has pretty much 'nailed it' for western railroads. My experience found that my predecessors preferred contracts and that the later contracts had 'boiler plate' to protect from bad experiences with contracts, especially those with cities.
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