tree68 charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning. But it does happen.
charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning.
According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning.
But it does happen.
Families strive to have suicides reported as accidental - with guns, poison and asphyxiation by hanging it is difficult to be able to argue it was accidental - being killed by a train is much easier to argue that it was 'accidental', when it really wasn't.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The deep flangeways at crossings are a problem that should have been fixed years ago. They have killed people and impose hazards including entrapment of small wheels, footware, and grabbing bicycle tires which can throw off the rider.
I suspect the problem will soon be eliminated by the SHALLOW FLANGEWAY product being installed in all grade crossings.
BaltACD tree68 charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning. But it does happen. Families strive to have suicides reported as accidental - with guns, poison and asphyxiation by hanging it is difficult to be able to argue it was accidental - being killed by a train is much easier to argue that it was 'accidental', when it really wasn't.
You and tree really love to rationalize when facts are against you and railroads. As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service.
charlie hebdo BaltACD tree68 charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning. But it does happen. Families strive to have suicides reported as accidental - with guns, poison and asphyxiation by hanging it is difficult to be able to argue it was accidental - being killed by a train is much easier to argue that it was 'accidental', when it really wasn't. You and tree really love to rationalize when facts are against you and railroads. As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service.
In cab videos disagree.
BaltACD charlie hebdo BaltACD tree68 charlie hebdo According to the CDC, of the 47,193 suicides in the US in 2017 (#10 cause of deaths) half are by guns, then poison, then asphyxiation. #4 is "Other" representing only 7.8%. Suicide by train would be somewhere in that group, but likely trailing fall from high places and drowning. But it does happen. Families strive to have suicides reported as accidental - with guns, poison and asphyxiation by hanging it is difficult to be able to argue it was accidental - being killed by a train is much easier to argue that it was 'accidental', when it really wasn't. You and tree really love to rationalize when facts are against you and railroads. As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service. In cab videos disagree.
There is also considerable stigma brought upon the victim of suicide and the people close to the person who commits or attempts suicide. There was a suicide by train near where I once lived, and all the local people knew about it from the witnesses and the responders. We were all told that the media routinely withholds reporting suicides because of the stigma. And that suicide was not reported, to the best of my knowledge.
In this case, the person in the wheelchair survived and does not deserve any suicide stigma resulting from only the speculation that a suicide attempt was merely a possibility.
https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/suicideandstigma/
I agree. And uninformed, irresponsible speculation on here is simply wrong. Our railroads seem to have a problem with safe crossings. Why? Built on the cheap originally and a refusal to keep up to date now.
tree68Still unanswered is why he was perpendicular to what one would think would have been his route of travel across the crossing.
Maybe heading out to the street to get around the crossing pole that was bolted to the middle of the sidewalk?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann tree68 Still unanswered is why he was perpendicular to what one would think would have been his route of travel across the crossing. Maybe heading out to the street to get around the crossing pole that was bolted to the middle of the sidewalk?
tree68 Still unanswered is why he was perpendicular to what one would think would have been his route of travel across the crossing.
Why would a fully obstructed sidewalk make anyone in wheelchair take a detour around it? [/sarcasm]
Panic, confusion could be other reasons. Others have posted the most likely reasons: blocked by pole or attempting to turn around and go back.
In 2017, there were 2024 rail crossing accidents, with 271 deaths and 846 injuries. More should be done than blaming victims and exonerating the rails of any responsibility.
I wonder if this was called in or the police officer happened upon it. And if it was called in - did anyone call the # on the blue notification sign? How many people even are aware of the emergency notification signs?
And how long was the wheelchair stuck there, and how many simply drove by?
Lots of questions. Few answers.
charlie hebdo As Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings...
He was a good distance from the offending pole - there was no reason for him to be aligned with the flangeways at that point.
Panic seems to make the most sense.
As I mentioned before - one might wonder how many times he's made the selfsame crossing in the past. What was different about this trip?
Does this crossing have a history of wheelchairs getting caught in the flangeways? Is it different from other crossings?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
zugmann I wonder if this was called in or the police officer happened upon it. And if it was called in - did anyone call the # on the blue notification sign? How many people even are aware of the emergency notification signs? And how long was the wheelchair stuck there, and how many simply drove by? Lots of questions. Few answers.
This was addressed in a previous post with a link to an interview with the policewoman. She was just driving by, and turned around to go back to help.
This is the link it the previous post:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6L9EDNJT1I
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
I would not attribute this incident to some sort of operator error on the part of the person in the wheelchair. The fact is that the deep flangeways are a death trap integral to the fundamental design. How many centuries does it take to realize this?
The person in the wheelchair has every right to turn in any direction for any reason when crossing. Is there a law that says otherwise? Is there a law that says bicyclists must cross perpendicular to the rails? Some crossing installations are not perpendicular to the rails. In that case, are bicyclists expected to follow the crossing route and then suddenly veer sideways to cross the rails as vehicular traffic follows the road alignment?
Picture from the Post shows the 'steering' caster at the rear thoroughly blocked in the flange gap, 'just the wrong width'. Had it been a larger diameter it might have been able to swivel out, but likely only if reversed toward the oncoming train while trying to turn side-to-side with the motors. The visible side tire is not "flat", it is deformed down by the applied weight of the rider into the groove.
I see the grandmother of ex post facto product-liability suits looming here. Even an emergency 'jacking caster' away from the centered one would likely have gotten the trailer freed up; a pair of auxiliary 'rings' either side of that caster wheel would preserve the low running resistance but kept it from falling into grooves like sewer grates... or streetcar tracks. Likewise wider tires built on the principle of 'hybrid' 2" bicycle tires, where there is a hard center raised profile with minimal tread for 'low resistance road running' but aggressive off-road tread just to either side, could be easily adopted, with offset wheels or spacers if necessary.
And all this readily known to the scooter manufacturers who peddled these things for unrestricted outdoor use. If lawnmower manufacturers are supposed to be deemed liable for people picking up their product by the deck edges for hedge trimming, because not in the manual, it will be interesting to see what is in the scooter instructions about navigating obstructions...
Euclid I would not attribute this incident to some sort of operator error on the part of the person in the wheelchair. The fact is that the deep flangeways are a death trap integral to the fundamental design. How many centuries does it take to realize this? The person in the wheelchair has every right to turn in any direction for any reason when crossing. Is there a law that says otherwise? Is there a law that says bicyclists must cross perpendicular to the rails? Some crossing installations are not perpendicular to the rails. In that case, are bicyclists expected to follow the crossing route and then suddenly veer sideways to cross the rails as vehicular traffic follows the road alignment?
If I ride across a rail crossing that is not 90 degrees to the road, I adjust my path so I cross the rails at 90 degrees. It's common sense, although I'm sure there are bicyclists who have had to learn that lesson via a trip over the handle bars.
The gentleman in the wheel chair certainly has every right to turn in any direction he wants. If he's on a sidewalk, he has every right to ride over the curb at a 45 degree angle, too, but that will surely dump him. Common sense (or experience) should tell him that it's a bad idea - he should wait until he finds a ramp or other smooth access. The municipality is under no obligation to ensure that all transitions between sidewalk and road are suitable for riding a Hoveround over them at a 45 degree angle. It's sufficient to do so at intersections, etc.
I don't see that the railroad has a responsibility to fix something that seems to work at thousands of crossings nationwide.
I see some very interesting things boiling up in the indefinite near future:
As I noted it is theoretically possible to modify the scooter detail design to make it safer to drive over flangeways. I would argue strongly that with all the current and planned resumption of tracks in common streets this be done quickly for all scooters, both in new production and to be retrofitted to older machines, and done at the manufacturer's sole expense as for other types of safety recall.
I don't see railroads being able to block access to unmodified Hoverounds under the current ADA as amended. Technical means of providing 'scooter safe' crossings have been demonstrated not to be 'failsafe' or 'foolproof' enough. The only thing I can think of in the short run is amending the ADA, perhaps in concert with FRA directive, to forbid unattended use of crossings by scooter users -- they would have to dial some service like 511 and arrange for someone, likely police or a paratransit driver, to meet them at a crossing and supervise as they cross. Not sure exactly how this would play out to the activist community that caused Amtrak to stick their foot so thoroughly in their mouth earlier this year.
Look to see little compressible strips put in crossing flangeways as a stopgap, with the usual California-Democrat $2000 fine and jail term for messing with them in any way the CaStaPo or its many informers detects (this is [sarc] not a political comment). Then the signage makes the scooter driver more aware of the necessary presence of strips as well as staying straight across without stopping or turning while on the specially-colored new 'advisory' aprons (can they have guidance stripes stampcreted into them legally?) OR ELSE [insert fines and charges for all involved in transgression]. If the strips are missing he calls special needs priority hotline number as above and has somebody come 'key him by' safely... and reinsert any missing or 'vandalized' strip.
tree68 Euclid I would not attribute this incident to some sort of operator error on the part of the person in the wheelchair. The fact is that the deep flangeways are a death trap integral to the fundamental design. How many centuries does it take to realize this? The person in the wheelchair has every right to turn in any direction for any reason when crossing. Is there a law that says otherwise? Is there a law that says bicyclists must cross perpendicular to the rails? Some crossing installations are not perpendicular to the rails. In that case, are bicyclists expected to follow the crossing route and then suddenly veer sideways to cross the rails as vehicular traffic follows the road alignment? If I ride across a rail crossing that is not 90 degrees to the road, I adjust my path so I cross the rails at 90 degrees. It's common sense, although I'm sure there are bicyclists who have had to learn that lesson via a trip over the handle bars. The gentleman in the wheel chair certainly has every right to turn in any direction he wants. If he's on a sidewalk, he has every right to ride over the curb at a 45 degree angle, too, but that will surely dump him. Common sense (or experience) should tell him that it's a bad idea - he should wait until he finds a ramp or other smooth access. The municipality is under no obligation to ensure that all transitions between sidewalk and road are suitable for riding a Hoveround over them at a 45 degree angle. It's sufficient to do so at intersections, etc. I don't see that the railroad has a responsibility to fix something that seems to work at thousands of crossings nationwide.
Well, common sense is fine, and using common sense would easly prevent a person from stepping into an open manhole if he realized it was there. Nevertheless, leaving a manhole open without any protection would be considered extreme negligence on the part of a worker who left such a hazard. This is because everyone knows that people can fall into an open hole because they don't expect it, are not watching for it, and don't see it.
Like an open manhole, people encounter these deep flangeways without any prior experience, and so they are most likely to have a problem on their first encounter. I don't think these types of hazards can be dismissed just because they rarely cause an accident.
An open publc walkway invites a person to use it. If there is a built in hazard, it had better be identified and protected against. It is not common sense to conclude that the hazard is not worth mitigating because most people recongnize the hazard and get through it okay. Common sense says people should not fall off roofs.
EuclidAn open publc walkway invites a person to use it. If there is a built in hazard, it had better be identified and protected against.
Most of the usual 'reasonable accommodations' that might be imposed under the ADA aren't particularly workable. You can't have a folding ramp that works with the gates, or rising ramps like for continuous frogs under the pedestrian crossings, or even having paratransit or cruisers equipped with porta-ramps to be spread a la Raleigh for known scooter transition hazards. The idea of providing scooter overcrossings or tunnels is perhaps silly... but expect it to become a significant and justifiable reason for expensive crossing-removal projects... and that still doesn't answer the ADA issue for crossings that 'can't' be eliminated or closed.
Those of us who remember the ongoing torture that 200-odd Admiral television sets caused for NTSC color television are more than usually worried how the activist arguments about ADA scooter access are going to be played.
I am thinking of starting a 'Carthago delenda est' sig campaign that scooters must change; scooters must pay. Or the law must be common-sense amended to remove the potential issue...
THERE WILL NEVER BE A RISK FREE WORLD!
charlie hebdoAs Euclid points out in part, deep flangeways at crossings are yet another public health hazard from corporations more interested in satisfying hedge fund managers than providing safety and service.
Flangeways at crossings near me on the UP main are designed to prevent narrow tire/wheel droppage, it appears. I'm not sure what the product is, but it appears to be a continuous strip. I doubt if it is a health hazard and certainly would prevent bike wheels from dropping in the flangeways.
OvermodWatch now for the fun as some clever Antifa-inspired 'protestor' gets the bright idea to insert pieces of orange-painted steel bar into strategically-undisclosed crossings to put teeth in further 'protest' closings... no wait, everyone forget I said that.
Just why do you feel you have the need to post that crap? Honest question.
charlie hebdo I doubt if it is a health hazard and certainly would prevent bike wheels from dropping in the flangeways.
Watch for this simple point to be lied about and 'tried in the press and public opinion' in the upcoming weeks, together with 'his foot might have been spared if the train had been plugged quicker' and 'why didn't they steer to avoid him' arguments.
The arguments about strips of different kinds to fill street and crossing flangeways are very old -- some of them go back to street running in the days of the rubber car spring rage after the invention of vulcanization. Arguments for and against both the vertically-compressible and horizontally-displaceavle types are nearly that old... as are all the usual-suspects issues of weather, climate, maintenance including imposed risk, sabotage, etc. etc. etc. A couple have even been raised in previous posts in this thread, as has the phrase 'bozo no-no' which I have taken careful notice of.
At least some present designs of 'modular crossing' sold to railroads as safe in fact have an open gap between the center plate at the bottom of the flangeway, so dirt, ice, water etc. cannot build up to a derailment hazard. That is the engineering hazard that a railroad is tasked with mitigating.
Overmod charlie hebdo I doubt if it is a health hazard and certainly would prevent bike wheels from dropping in the flangeways. The arguments about strips of different kinds to fill street and crossing flangeways are very old -- some of them go back to street running in the days of the rubber car spring rage after the invention of vulcanization. Arguments for and against both the vertically-compressible and horizontally-displaceavle types are nearly that old... as are all the usual-suspects issues of weather, climate, maintenance including imposed risk, sabotage, etc. etc. etc. A couple have even been raised in previous posts in this thread, as has the phrase 'bozo no-no' which I have taken careful notice of. At least some present designs of 'modular crossing' sold to railroads as safe in fact have an open gap between the center plate at the bottom of the flangeway, so dirt, ice, water etc. cannot build up to a derailment hazard. That is the engineering hazard that a railroad is tasked with mitigating.
The idea of flange filler strips may be old, but old ideas that fail are often finally perfected as materials and processes evolve.
This link should be able open large views of patent illustrations of the cross section of these elastomeric fillers that can be simply pressed into place without taking apart the crossing. It seems like a well-engineered product that would be a realistic approach to serving a real need. It is called a "Shallow Flangeway" and made by Polycorp.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120000987
The question is not whether elastomeric flangeways exist, or how well they actually perform in service, and do or don't require more careful maintenance than their manufacturers tout.
It is that it is not the railroad's responsibility, far less the railroad's liability, to put these things into crossings or to have to account for any consequences. I particularly object to the rather trolling left-wing insinuation that this is some heartless robber-baron cost-cutting reckless-endangerment thing, when the railroad safety interest (and by extension the danger to the great majority of the public through derailment) is in safe room under the flanges at all times under any conditions.
Overmod The question is not whether elastomeric flangeways exist, or how well they actually perform in service, and do or don't require more careful maintenance than their manufacturers tout. It is that it is not the railroad's responsibility, far less the railroad's liability, to put these things into crossings or to have to account for any consequences. I particularly object to the rather trolling left-wing insinuation that this is some heartless robber-baron cost-cutting reckless-endangerment thing, when the railroad safety interest (and by extension the danger to the great majority of the public through derailment) is in safe room under the flanges at all times under any conditions.
Where do you find the "rather trolling left-wing insinuation that this is some heartless robber-baron cost-cutting reckless-endangerment thing"? Who has said that it is the railroads' responsibility to install the flangeway fillers? If it were to go forward, I have no idea who should pay for it. Who pays for the crossings and their equipment? Maybe the onus to resolve the danger should be borne by the mobility equipment manufacturers.
How many derailments have been caused? So is public safety for pedestrians and cyclists irrelevant in your view? Why make this political when it is not? Euclid is certainly not a left winger. Let's see some facts to back up your edicts.
For the most part, crossings must be paid for by government units, even though IMO they should be cost shared with rails.
Just think- if he'd have gone straight across the rails, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
charlie hebdoHow many derailments have been caused? So is public safety for pedestrians and cyclists irrelevant in your view? Why make this political when it is not? Euclid is certainly not a left winger. Let's see some facts to back up your edicts. For the most part, crossings must be paid for by government units, even though IMO they should be cost shared with rails.
Why plant the crossing protection equipment in THE MIDDLE of the sidewalk?
No matter who is responsible, RR or State/County - THEY WERE WRONG!
BaltACDWhy plant the crossing protection equipment in THE MIDDLE of the sidewalk?
While I agree that the placement of said equipment is wrong (and the other side isn't much better, with a utility pole and signs), there is still no reason for this gentleman to be in the position he was.
Unless this was his first time ever over that crossing (which I doubt), he could have crossed over without being over the rails. And there is a crosswalk a half a block away that he could have used if he wanted to be on the other side of the road.
Unfortunately, that crossing equipment on the other side poses the same issue.
Still - he could likely have avoided the situation. Then, again, maybe he's always done it that way and just happened to get stuck this time...
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