EMD F units in passenger service....hmmmm...

[Kozzie]

I've just browsed through a book about various locos round the world, enjoying it all the more for what I've learned from this Forum.

I noticed that the book said that usually, the E units handled the passenger work, whilst the F units were aimed at selling to railroads for hauling freight.

However, it also said that F units were used for passenger work in mountain areas. So I was wondering, without getting too detailed, where the F units did passenger service? [;)]

Thanks [:)]

Dave

[eolafan]

Santa Fe was the biggest road to use F units in passenger service but I know NP, WP, CB&Q and others also used them. You will note that these all handled trains primarily west of the Mississippi River...i.e. mountains. The E units had too little weight on each axle and thus had problems with wheel slippage on severe grades.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eolafan

Santa Fe was the biggest road to use F units in passenger service but I know NP, WP, CB&Q and others also used them. You will note that these all handled trains primarily west of the Mississippi River...i.e. mountains. The E units had too little weight on each axle and thus had problems with wheel slippage on severe grades.

Thanks Jim [:)] - I suspected it was more of an occurence in the western states. I wonder if any east coast RRs used them for passenger work...

Dave

[ericsp]

Here are a bunch of pictures of Southern Pacific F7s hauling passenger trains.
http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/sj.html
http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/sppass.html

[M636C]

Dave,

The Santa Fe started this trend late in WWII when restrictions were relaxed a little, and the bought some FT A-B-B-A sets with passenger gearing and steam generators. The first one came in blue and yellow freight colours, but later units were delivered in red and (painted) silver.

The steam generators were in the B units only, which was a feature of ATSF passenger F units right to the end. (So don't run an model ATSF passenger train with F units without a B unit, or someone will ask why you are giving the passengers a hard time!) With the stiff grades on the ATSF main line, they never went back to E units, although they had their earliest EA units "rebuilt" to E-8s.

But the early ATSF passenger FTs were purchased before passenger units became available again after WWII, although ATSF were obviously quite happy using F units on passenger.

E units had only four motors on their six axles, which made them more prone to slip, although SP bought E-9s with dynamic brakes for mountain use.

SP certainly had passenger F units for the same (steep grades) reason, and they lasted into Amtrak use, but SP had FP units with steam generators in the A units.

Great Northern had steam heating cars that allowed them to use FTs and other freight units for passenger service, and later had passenger F units. as did Northern Pacific.

Pennsylvania had FP passenger units, but I don't think New York Central thought the "water level route" needed them.

Southern had passenger F units quite late, into the Amtrak era (although Southern didn't join Amtrak at first).

I'm sure many other Eastern roads used passenger F units, but I'd have to check their rosters. N&W didn't because they didn't dieselise until late, and went straight to passenger GP units. They did hire RF&P E units during the transition from steam.

Peter

[Kozzie]

Eric - thanks for those site details - I'm always on the lookout for variations in passenger trains - heh heh

Peter - I confess [:-,] my question was also driven by the fact that I have a rake of 12 Walthers HO SP S/steel Budd passenger cars - the ones with the horizontal red band above the windows. I was wondering if I could put an F unit in Black Widow colours in front of them....?

Dave

[mudchicken]

Kozzie: ATSF used the F-units in a building block approach. Mail trains and passenger trains grew and shrank as needed. There were E-units, PA's a handful of DL-109's and FM Erie builts. (They were looking at Baldwin Centipedes as well but dropped the idea.). The EA's (Amos and Andy) morphed so many times that the originals would not recognize the final transfer unit (ugly thing). There were so many trains running so many places that flexibility made sense. DRGW used a similar approach with F's and a handful of Alco cowls. The Chico Chief (La Junta to Pueblo to Denver over Monument Hill, 2nd highest point on ATSF) and San Diegans used E-units frequently....

In the mountains the advantage of the A-1-A truck under an E-unit lost its advantages. (eg - there were 6 axles spaced evenly, only 4 were powered, not like today's SD's)

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

In the mountains the advantage of the A-1-A truck under an E-unit lost its advantages. (eg - there were 6 axles spaced evenly, only 4 were powered, not like today's SD's)

Would it be safe to assume that a typical F unit weighed more than 2/3 the weight of an E unit?

[M636C]

Dave,

I'll have to check this, but my impression was that the "Black Widow" scheme was mainly confined to freight units and SP passenger units were generally red and orange "Daylight" or later grey and red. There was at least one (experimental?) "Black Widow" E unit (and P2K make one, but I haven't checked that they got the number right). SP may have had "dual purpose" units in "Black Widow" (Santa Fe had theirs in Warbonnet).

Peter

[daveklepper]

The New York Central did not have passenger F units, even on the Boston and Albany, where they would have been of good use. There is an F painted in lightining stripe two-tone grey, white and black in one of the museums, but it is not authentic, and I think it resulted actually from a nostalgia kick on Metro North some time ago, where some of the brass wanted a diesel in NYC colors for a Harmon Shop Open House to match the several FL-9's painted in McGinnis New Haven colors, which of course were authentic for those locomotives. There are still a few FL-9's on Metro North for standby service. Of course the F-9's of the Rio Grande Zephyr were known by lots of fans. The D&RGW originally used Alco PA's (and PB's) on the California Zephyr but found it an advanteg to switch to F units. The Alcos then powered the Yampa Valley Mail, and the Scenic Limited or Panorama (the single schedule each way on Tennesee Pass) and occasionally the Prospector and the Joint Line train. The only E units that "invaded: the Rio Grand came in on the MP's Colorado Eagle from St. Louis (and Wichita) which used the joint line from Pueblo to Denver as a DRG&W train.

[M636C]

Dave,

You're OK. All SP F units were built in "Black Widow" including those FP7s and F7s fitted with boiler controls for boiler equipped F units. Only ONE FP7 was built (for Cotton Belt -SSW) in "Daylight" colours. (Has anybody told Athearn?)

So your Budd set can have "Black Widow" F units (with at least one B if they are F7s and not FP7s).

I've only managed to buy three Walthers "Super Chief" cars, twelve will take some time yet. I do have eight Rivarossi smoothside cars in SP red and silver, however.

Peter

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,



I'm sure many other Eastern roads used passenger F units, but I'd have to check their rosters. N&W didn't because they didn't dieselise until late, and went straight to passenger GP units. They did hire RF&P E units during the transition from steam.

Peter

I'm sure several of the other roads did also,but I know that the C & O used
FP-7s on the run from Ashland to Louisville,Ky.

[Anonymous]

Kozzie, you can see an SP A-B unit in Black Widow colors pulling not just the red-band SP cars but a complete Daylight set in the opening and close of the fairly well-known 1955 movie, Bad Day at Black Rock. It's a sort of neo-Western starring Spencer Tracy, who arrives in some God-forsaken Western hell-hole by train, which rather reluctantly makes a flag stop in this little place where apparently it usually never even slows down. During the opening credits, an airborne camera dwells on the tain at length as it arrives in town, and at the end it does the same.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Dave,
In the Chicago area, several roads used F units in suburban service. C&NW used F7A's and E's, MILW used F7A's, F9A's and E9A's, RI had 3 F7A's and GM&O used an F3A on its lone suburban train to Joliet.
Soo Line and CGW used FP7's for their minimal intercity passenger service.

Paul

[AntonioFP45]

Atlantic Coast Line had purple FP7s used for local passenger service. They survived the SCL merger and dressed in the black and yellow "BumbleBee scheme continued to haul freight as well as run short passenger "connecting runs". They were especially usefull in the "hilly" areas of the Carolinas.

Like the regular F units, they were gone by 1972, traded in for U-Boats.

[Kozzie]

Thanks everyone for all the info, including the east coast data. I'm going to print out these posts for reference.

Peter, thanks for checking out the SP F units in Black Widow scheme - I reckon it looks sharp! heh heh...

Dave

[Anonymous]

In the book "New York Central System Diesel Locomotives" The authors Edson, Vail & Smith identify F3's which were used in both freight and passenger service.

F3A units 3500-3503 and F3B's 3600 & 3601. Built 7/47. Steam generators were removed beginning in 1959.

[BaltACD]

B&O had a series of F3's that were purchased for passenger service. Once in service it was detirmined that they did not have enough water capacity to provide steam heat over some of the normal routes. These engines were then assigned to the Chicago Division and operated between Willard, OH and Chicago, retaining their passenger gearing. They could really fly with one of the B&)'s Timesavers.

Several of the F7's the B&O purchased had boilers, but retained freight gearing and were used in 'Passenger Protect' service...ie. used in freight service but available to help out passenger assignments that were in trouble.

[Kozzie]

This thread is turning up some really interesting stuff! All appreciated!

Dave

[BR60103]

Dave:
Between Canadian Pacific and Canadian National, they had 3 E-units, all bought for CPR's lines into the US.
CNR ran F7As with F7Bs with steam generators. They had FP9As with steam generators. CPR had FP7As and FP9As, with plain B units (?) They also had steam generating cars (separate units, looked like boxcars) to run with freight locos or if it was really cold on the 5 day cross-country trip.
These locos ran all the way across the country.

[Anonymous]

Southern had many steam-generator-equipped F3s and also had heater cars (some converted FT B-units) to use behind freight units. I have a photo of an FT with a (non-FT B unit) heater car behind it, and photos of a varied consist with an FTb heater car. Southern also had FP7s.

Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis also used steam-generator equipped F3s.

Fs weighed around 240,000 pounds, all on drivers. Es weighed around 350,000 pounds with about the same weight on drivers as the Fs.

Santa Fe probably used passenger Fs in higher-speed service than anybody else, but probably had to pay close attention to the taper in the wheel treads to keep the trucks from "hunting" at high speeds. I've seen Blombergs hunt at 70 MPH under passenger GP9s, an uncomfortable situation. It was possible to use non-tapered (cylindrical) wheel tread configurations to minimize the hunting problem.

Old Timer

[Kozzie]

Dave and Old TImer - this is all good stuff! Filling another gap (and there's plenty of those heh heh) in my knowledge of U.S. passenger services.

Dave

[AntonioFP45]

Hello Dave,

On the New York Central there were F units in the lightining stripe scheme but with black bodies as theses were freight units. The lightining striped E-units had gray on the bodies instead of black, which designated passenger service.

Of course that came to an end when the much cheaper "Cigar Band" scheme was adopted.

[passengerfan]

Canada was a good place to find F-units in Passenger service. Both CN and CP operated FP-7 and FP-9 units as well B units.
In the west CB&Q initially began California Zephyr service with F3 A-B-A sets operated between Chicago and Denver. The Rio Grande began using Alco PA-PB-PA sets on the same train between Denver and Salt Lake City but soon repalced them with A-B-A sets of F units and the Western Pacific operated F- units in A-B-B configuration on the CZ later A-B-A.
SP used the freight painted F units on trains with the red stripe such as the San Joaquin Daylight.
GN became a staple F-unit buyer for passenger service after having problems with the original E-7 units on 1947 Empire Builder.
Santa Fe operated F units on almost all east west trains following WW II except the Chief that was assigned A-B-A sets of Alco PA PB units. SP assigned PA's to the Shasta Daylight, Cascade, City of San Francisco, but assigned F-units to the San Francisco Overland most of the time.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Dave,
Something I forgot in my earlier post. Monon operated F3A's in passenger service pulling the equipment rebuilt from war surplus Army hospital cars. In later years, the F3A's were replaced by steam-generator equipped RS2's and C420's.

Paul

[Anonymous]

Boston and Maine relied heavily of 22 E units ( 21 E7s, 1 E8) for passenger service and concentrated most of their F units in freight, however a small number of their F-2s, F-3s and F-7s were equipped with steam boilers and were used on passenger trains on a few selected routes. They were chiefly used on semi-secondary runs where their 65mph gearing was not an issue with schedule keeping.

[jkeaton]

And, since CN and CP Fs have been mentioned here, we'd be remiss if someone didn't mention the Ontario Northland FP7s, which lasted so long in passenger service that three (if I remember correctly) of them were rebuilt with 2000 HP Caterpillar diesel prime movers.

Also, visually intriguing, several ex-ON FP7s were rebuilt into cab-control-head-end-power cars (no traction) for GO Transit commuter services around Toronto. These were usually used on the "wrong" tail end of push-pull trainsets, with a GP40, GP40TC or F40 providing traction at the other end. When in push mode, were leading, the effect was very nice - a single FP7 cab control car in striking green and white with up to a dozen green and white double deck commuter cars in tow, the traction unit mostly out of sight behind! All of these ex-FP7s are now retired, I believe.

Montreal's commuter agency, STM, also used ex-CP FP7s in commuter service - some of these lasted long enough to be replaced by F59PHs.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Reading Company bought FP7s and used them back to back so that they did not need to be turned at the end of the run. Later they had a push - pull commuter train with an FP7 on each end.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rdganthracite

Reading Company bought FP7s and used them back to back so that they did not need to be turned at the end of the run. Later they had a push - pull commuter train with an FP7 on each end.

Hey! Aren't there a pair of Reading FP7s today that survived and have been used on tour or excursion runs?!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Dave,
You would be familiar with the rationale behind the wheel arrangement of the FL9. They were built with a B-A1A wheel arrangement and were 8 feet longer than a standard F9A. The idler axle was included to reduce axle loadings for the Park Avenue elevated approach tracks to Grand Central Teminal.

The FL9 was built to replace straight electric locomotives on the New Haven in order to reduce the load on New Haven's obsolescent Cos Cob power plant (NH did not rely exclusively on purchased power). They were intended to be dual-service locomotives but did not spend much time pulling freight.

Paul