EMD F units in passenger service....hmmmm...

[Anonymous]

Puckdropper - So long as your layout is set when the weather is reasonable don't worry about using FA1s on your passenger trains. There are many examples on the railroads where otherwise freight locomotives were used for passenger operations in the summer.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Slight correction to the above post, Metra ex-C&NW E8A's were the pilot engines on the flood detours. Metra's last F's (also ex-C&NW) were in work train duty by that time if they were still on the roster.

[Chris30]

Ok, this might be a bit misleading but it's true. F units were used on Amtrak long distance trains in the summer of 1993. If you remember, the summer of '93 had a lot of flooding in the midwest and several rail lines were under water causing a lot of detours. One of lines under water was the BN in southern Iowa causing the California Zephyr to detour over the CNW between Omaha and Chicago. All trains running on the Overland Route on the CNW need to have cab signals in the lead engine. Amtrak did not have any F40's with cab signals. Because CNW was power short and using just about anything to lead detouring freight trains that summer, the only engines left to lead the Cal Zeph's accross Iowa and Illinois were Metra's three ex-CNW F8's. I believe that all three units were originally part of the CNW Executive fleet. The F8's were even painted in Metra colors (looked just like the F40's). So, it looked a little odd to see a F8 in Metra colors leading the Cal Zeph. Amtrak wasn't happy with the F8's performance. (Maybe they were on time!)

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

Eric - thanks for those site details - I'm always on the lookout for variations in passenger trains - heh heh

Peter - I confess [:-,] my question was also driven by the fact that I have a rake of 12 Walthers HO SP S/steel Budd passenger cars - the ones with the horizontal red band above the windows. I was wondering if I could put an F unit in Black Widow colours in front of them....?

Dave

On page 61 of Southern Pacific Railroad by Brian Soloman (MBI Publishing, 1999, ISBN 0-7603-0614-1) has a picture of a Black Widow F7A (SP 6458) followed by an F7B in gray pulling five passenger cars in that paint scheme. The number boards indicate it is train 99, the author says it is the northbound Coast Daylight leaving Los Angeles on 11/21/1964.

[passengerfan]

GN operated at least one set of FA-FB in passenger service out of Seattle for a time and they were definitly boiler equipped I believe as don't remember a boiler car operating between Seattle and Vancouver. This FA-FB set was based at Interbay. I may be wrong if so someone please correct me. It may be an old man's mind playing tricks. I do know the GN never owned a FPA or FPB units.

[M636C]

Paul,

I have only sparse information on B&O diesels. I had a quick look in my copy of "B&O Power" and indeed there is a photo of what seems to be an FA+FA set on a passenger extra in Cleveland in August 1957. The view shows the roof of both units and neither appears to have a boiler. Of course, B&O had a lot of air conditioned cars, and steam heat might not be needed in August anyway. That's too small a sample to say about the class, but the X2200S list probably only indicates the as built situation. B&O could certainly fit boilers to a unit. if they so wished. But the photo sounds like a good excuse for a model, and indicates that the units were used on passenger duties, too!

Peter

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Peter,
I'm not sure but I believe that B&O and L&N also had boiler equipped FA's but they were primarily freight locomotives and only used occasionally in passenger service as back-ups and for special trains.
Paul

[Puckdropper]

Peter,

I wasn't trying to. ;-) I must admit I've got a bit of interest in the FA-1/FB-1s due to the fact they're currently coupled to a passenger train on my layout. I guess I'm going to have to say the cars had onboard heat or something. (It's electric boogy woogy boogy woogy or something like that... ;-))

[M636C]

Puckdropper, you would find the basic flaw in my argument!

I've had to drag out my old copies of X2200S! The March April 1972 issue has a complete list of FAs and FBs.

While it would technically possible to fit a boiler in the "cab" end of an FB-1, it doesn't appear to have been done.

Only FA-2, FB-2 and FPA-4 and FPB-4 units were ever fitted with steam generators. In fact although all four of these models were used in Canada and Mexico , only Missouri Pacific used any steam generator equipped Alco B-B units in the USA and they were all F(P)A-2 cab units. The total was only 19 units out of 1072 units used in the USA.

Peter

[daveklepper]

Just a reminder that the Newe Haven DID regard all its A-1-A A-1-A Alcoes as dual service locomotives, both the DL-109's and the PA's, passenger trains New Haven - Boston by day and Ceder Hill - Boston freight at night. FA's were the Maybrook line power in general, but of course were also used on the Shore Line.

[Puckdropper]

QUOTE:
I think it was because the FA-1 wasn't able to fit a boiler, and the option wasn't offered until the FA-2 appeared.

What about the FB-1? Did they put a boiler in that?

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

While you guys are debating Alco PA's, please remember that this heavilly doctored old girl is still with us and needs, at some point, to rejoin the PA's who are getting all the press here. Photo taken Wednesday 1/19 near where I was working.



Background info: http://calzephyr.railfan.net/ghosts/6002.html

[banghead][banghead][banghead]

I am probably biased, however, I think the SP Daylight and the DRGW schemes were the best passenger paint schemes.

[M636C]

Mudchicken,

Yes, it is the last PB, although you'd never know looking at it! Those generators would be as happy in any old baggage car. But where will we get A1A trucks for it?

I last saw it in LAUPT in 1994. I thought it was still around, though.

Peter

[mudchicken]

While you guys are debating Alco PA's, please remember that this heavilly doctored old girl is still with us and needs, at some point, to rejoin the PA's who are getting all the press here. Photo taken Wednesday 1/19 near where I was working.



Background info: http://calzephyr.railfan.net/ghosts/6002.html

[banghead][banghead][banghead]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

It appears that the DL and E series specification numbers on Alco locomotives were used from the outset. The PA/FA/RS/S designations appear to have been devised in the mid-1950's and applied retroactively. The RS/RSC/RSD and FA/FPA series include various export designs, the DL-500 (World Locomotive) has model numbers of FPD3, FPD5 and FPD7 and the DL-531 is also the RSD8.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Hello Dave,

On the New York Central there were F units in the lightining stripe scheme but with black bodies as theses were freight units. The lightining striped E-units had gray on the bodies instead of black, which designated passenger service.

Of course that came to an end when the much cheaper "Cigar Band" scheme was adopted.

The book "New York Central System Diesel Locomotives" by Edson, Vail & Smith states "Bodies painted Passenger 2 tone gray on "A" units, "B" units were originally dark gray."

This refers to F3A units 3500-3503 and F3B 3600-3601.

Photos in the book of 3502 & 3503 definitely show them to be gray.

[M636C]

I think it was because the FA-1 wasn't able to fit a boiler, and the option wasn't offered until the FA-2 appeared. Most of these units were sold early in their production run, when overall demand was higher. Railroads sometimes bought Alco rather than wait longer for EMD units, because the savings in replacing steam were much greater than the perceived penalty of operating a diesel locomotive that required more maintenance than an EMD.

The PA series had GE752 motors and were more suitable for freight service than the E units, and some certainly were used as freight power after retirement from passenger service and changing the gear ratios. Fairbanks Morse offered the somewhat similar (certainly electrically) "Erie builts" as freight locomotives despite their A1A trucks, but I don't think Alco ever did so with the PA.

For those reading the "Assorted Questions" thread, there have been discussions on the origin of EMD's model codes. While Mark is checking his references, I'd like to open another line of questions, partly relevant to this discussion.

My information has been that the common references to Alco models were not initiated by Alco but by railfans and only reluctantly and to some extent retrospectively adopted by Alco.

Alco referred to the "PA/PB" series as the "DL-300" series, one reference suggesting that ATSF 51 (the first set) was the DL-300 (PA) and DL-301 (PB) with higher numbers for subsequent units. Similarly, the freight units were in the DL-200 series, but this dated back to the wartime prototypes and the numbers were higher. The road switchers and switchers were in a series with an "E" prefix.

Does anyone know when the PA/FA/RS/S designations were adopted by Alco, and were they in use by railfans before this date?

Or is this all just a myth?

Certainly, the early Alco manuals just refer to 1500 HP Freight units and 2000HP Passenger units, and if the "model" series was in use at that time, it might be expected to be used!

Peter

[Kozzie]

Peter, were fewer FAs and FBs used for passenger service because the PAs and PBs were marketed by Alco as the way to go for hauling passenger trains??? Or was it just because more RRs preferred the EMD alternative?

Dave

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DonGage

To all on F units, Hopefully by this coming fall the Tennessee Railway Museum in Nashville Tn will have an F-7, ABBA, working there excursion trips, B units have been restored and work on the A's is progressing, external retoration on first A is almost complete and the machanical is lacking wireing for the dynamic break that is being installed.

This is good news, but I don't understand something here!

Didn't this museum just get rid of those two gorgeous E8s that were in the New York Central "Lighting Striper" paint scheme because they were maintenance intensive with two 567 diesels under each carbody? Yet an ABBA lashup? That's the same number of 567 diesels but now 4 locomotives to maintain? [%-)][%-)]

[M636C]

Dave,

While there were fewer FAs and FBs than EMD F units, even fewer were used for passenger service. The FA-1 had no provision for a boiler, but the design was changed in the FA-2 to allow for passenger service. The 251 engined FPA-4 was only sold in Canada, although a lot have subsequently appeared in preservation in the USA (Grand Canyon, Napa Valley, and so on) While UP had a few FP passenger units and F units for freight, their FA/FB units ( all -1s) were strictly freight only.

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Dave:
you said EMD but I bet most of the comments would apply to the ALCO/MLW FA/FB and FPA/FPB units (vs the PA/PB).

BR60103 - now that's an angle I didn't think of! Good thinking!

Dave

[BR60103]

Dave:
you said EMD but I bet most of the comments would apply to the ALCO/MLW FA/FB and FPA/FPB units (vs the PA/PB).

[Wdlgln005]

http://www.tcry.org/equipmnt.htm

I'll give you a link to the TC Ry Site

Please note that this is also part of the route of the
new Music City Star commuter rail line.

http://rta-ride.org/services/rail/updates.html

Click on the RTA site for pdf pictures & other updates!

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DonGage

To all on F units, Hopefully by this coming fall the Tennessee Railway Museum in Nashville Tn will have an F-7, ABBA, working there excursion trips, B units have been restored and work on the A's is progressing, external retoration on first A is almost complete and the machanical is lacking wireing for the dynamic break that is being installed.

Don, that four unit lash-up will be one exciting event! [:p] [:)] Does the Tennessee Railway museum have it's own livery, or are the F units in one of the "fallen flag" colours?

Dave [;)]

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

Thanks Walt [:)][:)] - I'll look to see if they get a mention in my book of locos...

Dave [:)]

Dave,Thank You.
Looking forward to see that book.

According to 'My' info: Kalmbach's; "Our GM Scrapbook";
The F-9 was 50' 8",FP9 54' 8",and the FL-9 58' 8".

[Anonymous]

To all on F units, Hopefully by this coming fall the Tennessee Railway Museum in Nashville Tn will have an F-7, ABBA, working there excursion trips, B units have been restored and work on the A's is progressing, external retoration on first A is almost complete and the machanical is lacking wireing for the dynamic break that is being installed.

[Kozzie]

Thanks Walt [:)][:)] - I'll look to see if they get a mention in my book of locos...

Dave [:)]

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie


Paul, I have to admit, [:I] I don't know much about the FL9. Were they made by EMD?

Dave [:)]

Dave,they were made by EMD. To the best of my knowledge,they are about 8' longer
than a standard F unit.(to house extra equip.)

[Kozzie]

I can see that I'll have to make some sort of brief list to collate the roads that ran F units in passenger service.

Since I'm relatively a newcomer to the magazine, I wonder if this subject, or something similar was ever covered in an article in Trains Mag...

Paul, I have to admit, [:I] I don't know much about the FL9. Were they made by EMD?

Dave [:)]